I KNOW, RIGHT.Quote:
Originally Posted by redcurrant18
Gender locked race?
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02-09-2019, 12:11 PMInkstainedGwyn
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02-09-2019, 12:54 PMRokkeQuote:
Originally Posted by KaijinRhada
it is reassuring to have Moose in your corner ;w;Quote:
Originally Posted by Anonymoose
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02-09-2019, 01:26 PMstormygabeSo I LOVE how pro-viera/optimistic you seem to be. If we DON'T get male buns, I hope there's enough of a backlash to make them add them anyway. If we do, I hope they look nice. (aka Not the big bara buff burly insert-B-word-here that some want) At the same time, I can't help but remain apprehensive. There are so many great points both for them being added and omitted. I'm hoping your optimism somehow manifests into really cool looking rabbit wood elves.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokke
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02-09-2019, 01:41 PMShippuuI always see the Yugiri thing brought up as if it's some kind of big lore inconsistency if you're playing an Au Ra. But it's really not, the player character au ra starts their adventure as a nobody, coming in and doing grunt adventurer work, where people are less likely to question the individual if they just complete the task at hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Serenno
When Yugiri comes over, she's leading a huge group of refugees that have been declined everywhere else and are dangerously low on supplies. Given we know some au ra have had bad encounters with eorzeans (what happened to Sidurgu's clan for example) she has plenty of reason to potentially keep her appearance hidden when she's trying to request significant aid. It also doesnt help she landed within Ul'dah's juristiction which has stricter rules regarding beastmen. Even if she sees another Au ra walking around, it's far too much of a risk given she is probably aware of how past au ra were treated at the hands of ishgardians and couldn't take the gamble that she would be refused on appearance alone when her people were in such a dire situation.
Now, that doesn't mean there aren't other inconsistencies, but I always felt the Yugiri one is a weak example. She had plenty of motivations to keep her identity hidden, even if she sees an Au Ra warrior of light who has earned a reputation through many feats.
I'm sure he has weighed the blowback it could cause and if he's prepared to take it he will. He's shown he's not afraid to do something that would for sure ruffle a lot of feathers when he released Blue Mage as a limited job which was a bigger risk than a potential unique to ffxiv male only race.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokke
As for no hype or build up? When he stated he doesn't always want to give out hints and wants to keep some things a surprise just last week during interviews? He specifically said he didn't want to go into each fanfest with people knowing everything that's coming. Announcing a separate unique race without having a breadcrumb trail of hints would be exactly such a thing. -
02-09-2019, 02:20 PMRokkeTo me its less about being optimistic and more the glaring lack of an alternative: Theres nothing pointing to a catlike race pre JP fanfest. Its not even just a lack of a t-shirt, theres absolutely zero hints in game and zero hints in the lorebook. Zip. Zilch. Nada.Quote:
Originally Posted by stormygabe
BLU being limited was cushioned by BLU being released pre-expac vs being a selling feature of the expac. It was also revealed to be limited then and there, instead of waiting till patchnotes to deal with the fallout.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
He also specifically said his tshirt choices are complete happenstance and never had anything to do with announcements in that same exact press session lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
The manbunny outfit came to be becuase a niche group of people locked their legs and would. not. stop. bugging. A playable race reaches far more than ppl wanting a gold saucer set. To say PAX Q&A's would have a new staple demand would be an understatement. -
02-09-2019, 02:43 PMZeonx
Thing is you all don't ask, you demand they give it.
Also make threats I don't know how many times during the marriage dispute how many threaten to cancel subscription because they didn't have gay marriage.
They gave it then you all weren't happy, you wanted more and more and more and if you didn't get it you demand more and more.
I want something but I am happy with whatever they give me, I don't demand it and if I were SE I would stop handing this out because you don't appreciate what they've done you just ignore it and go to what you want next.
and if you don't think so, I see comments in here " I thought they learned their lesson" so we are teaching them a lesson if that ain't a sign of an attack I don't know what is. -
02-09-2019, 02:48 PMstormygabeI mean...if being a bunch of hyper-aggressive jerks gets me my man bun, I say keep up the threats!Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeonx
Yes, yes I'm aware I'm being VERY selfish. -
02-09-2019, 03:01 PMredcurrant18Me too. Why should I be complacent and give a company money if they don't give me what I want to buy? They have these forums so people can make their opinions known. Sometimes people come off as aggressive, and then when they don't get what they feel they are paying for they will get really upset. Just look at how WoW players reacted when they released some pig mount for the Chinese New Year but chose to lock it behind a paywall instead of including it in the yearly seasonal event. They were more than justified in their reaction-imagine if this Halloween they released a new costume but put it on Mog Station instead of allowing us to unlock it for free like always. All that aside, it's 2019, so let's leave gender locked races and marriage restrictions in 2002 along with the other broken concepts from FFXI that don't work in a modern MMORPG like FFXIV.Quote:
Originally Posted by stormygabe
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02-09-2019, 03:19 PMCorueGod forbid that people want to be satisfied with a product they pay money for.Quote:
Originally Posted by Zeonx
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02-09-2019, 03:39 PMIscahWhile I agree with a lot of what you wrote (though Yugiri's "excuse" about her mask still bugs me, especially since she makes no effort to hide her tail) I would be surprised if a Raen living in Doma is aware of what happened to one Xaela tribe of many, who left the Steppe and came to a grim fate two continents away. Even for other Xaela, they probably just never knew what happened to them, unless Sid sent them word of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
(Then again, Adkiragh got found by his tribesmen because somehow word got all the way back to Reunion that there was someone by that name working in Idyllshire. I don't think the writers pay much attention to distances on the map. Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story...?) -
02-09-2019, 07:23 PMCrushnight
I just got figured out Yoshi P's NA shirt its really obvious now in hindsight XD Bugs bunny + motorcycle = Male Bunny Race. He could've gotten a Jessica Rabbit or Lola Bunny shirt instead. The most obtuse he ever got with his shirts is the spiderman one :P
FYI ik i am just grabbing anything i can to want the male bunbois in i gotta hope dagnabbit -
02-09-2019, 08:11 PMBillyKaplanThey did lampshade it by including adventurers in the narrative, mind. And wherever civilized the WoL goes, they make sure we know other adventurers can reach as well. They also used Reunion, which was established as an information hub both among the tribes of the steppe, as well as in and out of the steppe. Story wise, it's solid, if a bit overwhelming. I'm more concerned with how little time it seems to take to make the trip...Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
That said, Ishgard's been at war with the dragons for a literal millennium. That's the sort of stereotype that gets itself to the other end of the world. People might not know a damn thing about Eorzea, let alone Ishgard specifically, other than "oh they hate dragons". -
02-09-2019, 08:59 PMGwenoraiSee, this is what gets me. If we go off by his history then he shouldn't be scared to go 'Oh, there's no male Viera.' If dropping disappointing news is something he's prepared to do, then why isn't he doing it?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
Why would the blow be lessened in Japan Fanfest? Yoshida doesn't understand English, it'd be much easier for him to take hate when he honestly doesn't understand what the people are saying? I think it'd be a lot more of an issue to say it in your homeland where they have the same nuances, language and all that. How would saying it in Japan make it better or easier? How would disappointing your original fanbase be easier? I'm not saying all of them are going to be up in arms about this, but you get my idea?
As you've repeated, 'he's never strayed from saying it wasn't ready' - okay, then I have to ask, has he strayed from delivering bad news and just strung it along or just got it out of the way right then and there?
He could have easily have said 'It's gender locked' and someone would ask 'Oh are the males getting a new race then?' and he could just have said the very same thing. 'Wait till JapanFanfest.' and we'd still be in the same boat - just we wouldn't be on this horrid cliff hanger. Yeah people would kick up a fuss, but he'd still get the same questions come Japanfanfest. 'Why didn't you add them in. Why did you pick this race.' All that's different here is that there are a few steps out of place.
Unless it was done for really sly reasons they want the preorders and then folks can't cancel their preorders after the bad news due to the early items we get, so when the bad news does hit - we can't cancel our preorders or something silly like that; which I don't think is possible?
There is something extremely out of character to add a gender locked playable race that no one asked for. You say that adding Male Viera is a bigger gamble and I have to ask, how is adding another random race that isn't even established yet in both FF14 or FF in general? If it's not Ronso - which it isn't if the leaker is correct - then the only Race it could be is Rev. I don't believe anyone asked for Rev. So, this boils down to it being a completely new race. A completely new feline race - when we already have one in the game, instead now we're just going backwards and it's going to be a 'reverse' of the moon miqote, only now the females are disallowed.
A completely new feline gender locked race, which as of right now there are zero ties into the story. Unless they're going to randomly introduce this new race between now and Japan Fanfest. If someone can confirm if there's going to be a big new story update soon during that time I would love to know. Honestly forget if we're getting a story update or it's just Eureka patches.
Anyway, the thing is, from what I gather people like to play characters that not only look good but also the history of that race appeals to them. Usually, they establish this by having an NPC character that is tied into the game so you can see the in-game model. See how they move, see how they talk, the emotional scale and etc. Then we get the history and the lore and we think, oh, this works.
Right now Lupin has been seen more than this mysterious cat. Lupin right now has more of a connection with the userbase than this unknown Bara cat - that isn't Ronso.
No, the only thing I've seen linked into anything cat-like during this whole expansion was; Byakko Humanoid form, Fat Cat Leaks and that one dude who was obsessed over the cuteness of cats during the year of the pig celebration. Zero lions.
I just don't understand how Viera is more of a gamble than. Race nobody asked for + Gender lock. Rather than, Viera isn't gender locked but some people don't like how the male looks. The first one is a double whammy. While some may like the new race; it's not only going to irritate those who hate the gender lock, those who hate the fact there's no male Viera - and the fact adding ANOTHER feline race is just going to crap on Miqo'te. If their logic is 'male miqo'te is most popular so add another cat' then why on earth didn't they just add more customisation into the CC?
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Can someone refresh my mind on how Aura was introduced? Or rather, when did they establish the fact this 'race' existed before we actually rolled into the expansion.
Edit; Sorry for the huge block of text, and again this isn't supposed to come across as aggressive, just thought I'd be clear on that. -
02-09-2019, 09:46 PMCrushnightYugiri was introduced in 2.2 having her face covered (can't remember if they hid her tail as well back then they don't now so idk :s) people surmised that she would be a then unknown race and hails from wherever Doma was whether Yugiri's race was going to be playable was up in the air but given they choose to hide her face people assumed we would, males were ofc way more up in the air than females at that point too fast forward to Tokyo fan fest 2014 where they reveal the new race Au Ra with both clans and the same lore as the CC gives.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwenorai
We actually have as much lore on the Viera as we did Au Ra with where they live and how they function as a society but we got this in December 2014 so much earlier than we did Viera and we also got clan differences at the same time so if anything they are behind by a lot compared to Au Ra but have a more established origin at the time of their reveal. -
02-09-2019, 11:44 PMKupocouboHow fragile.Quote:
Originally Posted by InkstainedGwyn
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02-10-2019, 12:02 AMLialeI don't know how it is shown as in game now, but back before the big reveal Yugiri's tail was hidden in cloth and her horns were also not shaped like au ra horns at all when covered in cloth.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
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02-10-2019, 12:53 AMShippuuThere's zero hints to the vast majority of things added in expansions. Where's the rule that everything has to have some hint to being added? Where was the hint of the Vath, Vanu Vanu, Kojin, Ananta, Namazu, Nu Mou, Pixies, Dwarves? These are all new races added to the game out of no-where with zero hints or clues leading up to them until they were straight up announced (in before they're somehow different because they're beast tribes).Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokke
Au Ra were implemented with a complete lack of lore and a complete lack of actual integration. All we had for them was that Yugiri was one and they were from the Far East (and a small mention in the Wind-Up Odin flavor text), and Sidurgu was from a group that came to Eorzea and got wiped out by Ishgardians. The majority of Au Ra lore for Heavensward came from Koji's naming convention post on the forums. We didn't get any kind of actual integration for Au Ra until the expansion AFTER Heavensward. A new unannounced race could be no different. We come across stuff all the time that hadn't existed to us before but the setting acts like they've been around the whole time.
And the announcement of a new race and that Viera+new race are genderlocked won't be addressed when it's announced? It couldn't possibly be why Yoshida is refusing to comment on if male viera are confirmed? That they have plans to go into more detail when they reveal something else?Quote:
BLU being limited was cushioned by BLU being released pre-expac vs being a selling feature of the expac. It was also revealed to be limited then and there, instead of waiting till patchnotes to deal with the fallout.
He's always joked that the shirts don't mean anything and we know it's a joke, it's obvious. That doesn't somehow invalidate that he said he wants there to be more surprises and he doesn't want to give hints away for everything coming.Quote:
He also specifically said his tshirt choices are complete happenstance and never had anything to do with announcements in that same exact press session lol
It took a considerable time (years) to finally get the male bunny outfit put into the game, and it's rarely used. If anything that's a knock against it that despite people being vocal about it, doesn't mean it's something a majority of players want. And considering the majority of the time the Q&A's have their questions pre-screened, it's easy for him avoid having to deal with that question outside of direct interviews. And again, Blue Mage is going to be the same situation. He knows how to handle Q&A's and interviews, he's shown he's quite skilled and avoiding answering things or explaining his reasoning even if it's unpopular.Quote:
The manbunny outfit came to be becuase a niche group of people locked their legs and would. not. stop. bugging. A playable race reaches far more than ppl wanting a gold saucer set. To say PAX Q&A's would have a new staple demand would be an understatement.
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02-10-2019, 12:59 AMShippuuI think you're forgetting that Yugiri is a ninja. She's connected to the other ninja's who have a gigantic spy network across the realms. She has made many statements about having her shinobi bring her information or sow unrest elsewhere. She isn't just some random Au Ra, she's essentially Doma's spymaster. If anyone would know detailed information about the goings on around the world, it'd be her.Quote:
Originally Posted by Iscah
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02-10-2019, 01:40 AMShippuuI'd say because revealing 2 races (one of which is a complete surprise for the most part unless you buy into leaks) is revealing too much at a single fanfest? They saw an opportunity to do a surprise reveal at the last fanfest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwenorai
If anything, the blow wouldn't be lessened in japan considering the JP fanfest this year is about 3-4 times as many people showing up as the EU fanfest, with supposedly 15,000 attendees coming.Quote:
Why would the blow be lessened in Japan Fanfest? Yoshida doesn't understand English, it'd be much easier for him to take hate when he honestly doesn't understand what the people are saying? I think it'd be a lot more of an issue to say it in your homeland where they have the same nuances, language and all that. How would saying it in Japan make it better or easier? How would disappointing your original fanbase be easier? I'm not saying all of them are going to be up in arms about this, but you get my idea?
And we've been over it a few times now, no matter what they announce it's going to be a disappointment to some group or another. It's not like people are going to rush the stage if they don't get what they want. He doesn't have to directly interact with them when he's on stage, even if they start booing him (which the Japanese audience is probably less likely to do compared to western audiences who tend to be a lot more vocal).
Add-on support and FC primal summoning are what come to mind first. These were features talked about as being in development and/or promised. That then didn't get any sort of announcement of bad news that they had been put on hold indefinitely until much later when asked directly about them in interviews. (We ultimately got some kind of primal summoning I think in Heaven on High though).Quote:
As you've repeated, 'he's never strayed from saying it wasn't ready' - okay, then I have to ask, has he strayed from delivering bad news and just strung it along or just got it out of the way right then and there?
Not really, because that's still pretty much a confirmation. The way he's answered the situation currently puts male Viera firmly in the ??? territory. There's nothing concrete confirming it and nothing confirming they won't happen. Only outside substantial evidence points to one thing or the other.Quote:
He could have easily have said 'It's gender locked' and someone would ask 'Oh are the males getting a new race then?' and he could just have said the very same thing. 'Wait till JapanFanfest.' and we'd still be in the same boat
Except it would have one, created a lot more negativity right before they opened pre-orders, and two, severely hindered the shock/surprise of a new race reveal, especially after they've been going on saying "This is probably the last race". There would be no point in setting up that misdirection to then just confirm it isn't by saying viera are the last playable race.Quote:
Yeah people would kick up a fuss, but he'd still get the same questions come Japanfanfest. 'Why didn't you add them in. Why did you pick this race.' All that's different here is that there are a few steps out of place.
Not to mention, there would be people not only upset that there's no male viera, but then people who would take their comments of "probably the last race" as very literal (which has already happened, you can see it everywhere) and then you'd have even more people up in arms for that reason, because they would be stating that the last race is only gender locked and that's a bigger no-no than two genderlocked races (one male, on female).
Says who? Did anyone ask for Au Ra, specifically?Quote:
There is something extremely out of character to add a gender locked playable race that no one asked for.
They did polling before 2.0 launched about future races the players would like to see. A mamallian demi-beastman race got the most votes (although they listed Viera as an example which I believe Yoshida commented on at one point wishing he didn't use Viera as an example because he felt it swayed the results). After that, outside of more clans and mixed races, Reptilian beastmen, and reptilian demi-beastmen got the next highest votes. So, Yoshida went with the reptilian demi-beastman option for Au Ra, now they're adding another race and he'd consider that poll again, looping back to mamallian demi-beastmen. He picked the Viera which were for sure wanted, but that doesn't illiminate the possibility that a lot of those people might have wanted a demi-beastmen race that isn't Viera.
He may feel like doing a gender-locked option is the best way for him to try and take a shot at a unique demi-beastman race for this game (since Miqo'te were basically remnants of FFXI, and Viera are from Tactics/12.) He may simply want to make a race that's truly unique to Final Fantasy XIV like the Au Ra, while still giving players something they really wanted (Female Viera). I wouldn't blame him because he's the director of the game, in the end it's his vision and if he wants to make his mark than by all means he should. He shouldn't have to cater and only add races from other games he didn't make.
They would also still have the option to later do male Viera anyways. if the blowback was THAT bad (but it probably wouldn't be).
It's not really that it's a bigger gamble, they're just about the same gamble. Except Viera comes with the blowback if it's not what people imagined in their head. A new race has no preconcieved expectations based on imaginary concepts in people's heads. Everyone has their own version of what male viera look like in their head and will be just as disappointed if they don't get their version. A new race is no different to them than if they got Viera flavored in a way they didn't like.Quote:
You say that adding Male Viera is a bigger gamble and I have to ask, how is adding another random race that isn't even established yet in both FF14 or FF in general?
So male viera are by no means a safe bet, and will come with blowback no matter how they're implemented. It's Yoshida's choice to either do that, or go with something new that some players may end up liking more than male Viera anyways.
See my previous post regarding this. Races don't have to be teased or have breadcrumbs leading into them. Au Ra were implemented with virtually nothing and the setting didn't notice them until the expansion after they were added as a playable race.Quote:
A completely new feline gender locked race, which as of right now there are zero ties into the story. Unless they're going to randomly introduce this new race between now and Japan Fanfest.
Yugiri's entire face was hidden until basically after the reveal of the Au Ra. And her model used Miqo'te animations. So, did a pretty poor job of demonstrating any of that.Quote:
Anyway, the thing is, from what I gather people like to play characters that not only look good but also the history of that race appeals to them. Usually, they establish this by having an NPC character that is tied into the game so you can see the in-game model. See how they move, see how they talk, the emotional scale and etc.
All of the Au Ra lore came from an info dump from Koji on the forums in the naming convention post. It wouldn't be until 2 years later that Au Ra as a race were really fleshed out in game.Quote:
Then we get the history and the lore and we think, oh, this works.
Again, back up to the polls. People did ask for it in a vague enough way.Quote:
I just don't understand how Viera is more of a gamble than. Race nobody asked for
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02-10-2019, 01:57 AMCrushnightThis is what we get on beast tribes(before expansion):Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
- Name
- A sentence on their nature ie pixies are mischievous but not as bad as moogles
- Their primal Deity if they have one
- Area they live in
- Use preexisting lore like lamias for ananta
This is what we get with a new playable race(before expansion):- An npc in game to represent/reveal in the last main patch of the current expansion
- Clan info
- gender info
- their society structure
- Where they come from
Both are handled differently and are treated differently by SE themselves if we were to get an unknown race we would get a surge of information on them at Tokyo on top of more Viera information. By this point we had more information on Au Ra but Viera are going to be better implemented with how they have set them up something i feel SE learned from Au Ra implementation being oh there here neat. So i then gotta ask why would SE repeat the Au Ra mistake while simultaneously also avoiding it its weird :s -
02-10-2019, 02:03 AMGwenoraiQuote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
You've made some great points, more than enough for me to dissect I'll give you that! Honestly, I think you've matched all my points - to the point where I'm worried but still going to stand strong to see how this goes. I would have preferred the 'mixed race' to another cat race. Ah, one thing I will tackle is the whole Yoshida's vision - I don't think that's rightfully true. I think that the fact that Matsuno Yasumi is now working on this expansion with him that he has a lot of ways as well, especially as the creator of the Viera and of course, the developer of FF12 and tactics.
In the end, I guess we'll see. But it just seems so odd if this is the road that they're going to go. Well at least to me. But I'll still speculate as it gives me something to do and I get to pick apart what was said, even if it looks a little too much into things and what was said. Like, the whole 'This is likely the last race.' comment, and how Viera was handled in the past...
xD At least there's one thing we can be looking out for. Fat chocobo hoodie? Hmm, maybe we'll get another fat mount. -
02-10-2019, 02:11 AMShippuuSo of this list, there would potentially be only 1 thing on the list that we wouldn't get for the new Race (if there is one), and that's that there was no in game NPC hinting/representing this race. (Which we can't even say for certain considering we haven't had all the patch story delivered to us).Quote:
Originally Posted by Crushnight
Au Ra's poor implementation was less to do with groundwork set up before they arrived, and more to do with zero impact, relevancy, or even appearing in the entire Heavensward story/areas outside of a total of about 3-4 NPC's. A new race could be more important to the 5.0 story and it would be the same as "learning from the implementation of Au Ra". We could be going to wherever this new race is from, which would immediately put it on being better implemented than the Au Ra was in Heavensward.
Even then, Au Ra was implemented poorly, but it didn't do anything to really negatively affect the game. So even if they did the exact same thing, it's not like it's even really an issue in the first place? It's certainly not a big enough issue to even consider not doing it because of that.
That's a pretty big assumption there unless you have proof? Matsuno worked in collaboration for the Ivalice raid series, we have little pointing to him being further involved in the development of the expansion (and considering they're bringing in new guest creators for the next raid, he's likely not helping).Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwenorai
But if they stated he is working as a new position on the expansion and I missed it, I'd love to see. -
02-10-2019, 02:44 AMGwenoraiAye, this was from hearsay - I can't find anything but the Livestream where they're talking about the 24man. So, you're right - but I still think there's still a point there. That if Matsuno wrote the lore, then Matsuno also has a say on what happens to his creations and also has to go through him. Unless you think Yoshida can simply go around his vision? I'm not stating you said this, I'm genuinely curious on your take on the matter regarding this.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
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02-10-2019, 02:46 AMRokkeComparing beast tribes to playable races is a stretch. With Yugiri’s intro we were shown there is a race with a strange tail + horns/ears, that had a face unique enough where it might offput people who’d never seen it, that was from the Far East- a place that had lost badly in a recent skirmish with Garlemald. While we definitely didn’t know the various intricacies of all 51 tribes of Xaela, we did have a starting point. Then Au Ra were confirmed and we got to see what Yugiri might look like under her mask through the reveal art work. Then at a later fanfest we got to see in the game character creation screen, the subrace, the 3D models, the 3D models wandering Ishgard, etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
Au Ra did not suddenly come into existence at the moment of their reveal.
Of course theres a possibility of something else. I just don't think it will play out with a something else, hence my comments in this thread.Quote:
And the announcement of a new race and that Viera+new race are genderlocked won't be addressed when it's announced? It couldn't possibly be why Yoshida is refusing to comment on if male viera are confirmed? That they have plans to go into more detail when they reveal something else?
And after years of attempting to dodge the question we got the confirmation of bunny suits being in the works and then a few more years of being dogged about it's progress and they were revealed at the same con they were originally asked for.Quote:
It took a considerable time (years) to finally get the male bunny outfit put into the game, and it's rarely used. If anything that's a knock against it that despite people being vocal about it, doesn't mean it's something a majority of players want. And considering the majority of the time the Q&A's have their questions pre-screened, it's easy for him avoid having to deal with that question outside of direct interviews. And again, Blue Mage is going to be the same situation. He knows how to handle Q&A's and interviews, he's shown he's quite skilled and avoiding answering things or explaining his reasoning even if it's unpopular.
In person requests started in the west and continued until JP and even Korea joined in. Prescreened questions are a thing, yes, but unless they plan only taking written in questions from this point on, its inevitable for a comment to slip through.
he was "prescreened" as well, after all.
http://i63.tinypic.com/33c22w8.jpg -
02-10-2019, 03:46 AMShippuuUltimately FFXIV is under Yoshida's direction, so even if Matsuno disagreed I feel Yoshida ultimately can overrule it. Remeber, Yoshida isn't just director/produce of FFXIV, but also a member of the board of directors for Square Enix, and head of SE's Business Division 5. He's much higher on the totem pole so to speak so his decisions can certainly supersede Matsuno's. I'm sure Yoshida would certainly consider Matsuno's point of view regarding the issue, but Matsuno definitely doesn't call the shots regarding what ultimately gets put into the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwenorai
You also seem to be implying that Matsuno would be for the inclusion of playable male Viera in the first place, which may not be the case. (He was the one who established that FFXIV's male Viera "simply do not exist to us." and to go looking for them would lead to disappointment. So...) -
02-10-2019, 04:01 AMShippuuIt really isn't. They're both new races that have history, lore, and complex relationships with the people of Hydalaen and are part of societies we knew little to nothing about prior to their implementation into the game. The only difference is we would get to play as one, and considering almost nothing about the game's story has any impact about what race you are outside of a comment or two there's little impact there.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokke
We're about to get at least female Viera playable, who are severely seclusive and not seen anywhere else in the world until they're going to be everywhere come 5.0, including the 2.0 story. We also haven't even been to, or see half of the world of Hydalaen, there's a whole lot out there we have no clue about until SE puts it into their game.
Except for all intents and purposes, they did. Their inclusion in Heavensward as a playable race offered virtually nothing new to the game's experiencable story. No story acknowledged them, even when you encounter the few other Au Ra that were present in Heavensward (Sidurgu and Mide, for example.) They don't go majorly out of their way. There was no precedence before, and Yugiri talked almost nothing about her race, only that she had a funny tail and ears/horns.Quote:
Au Ra did not suddenly come into existence at the moment of their reveal.
A new race absolutely does not need to have any kind of build up whatsoever. There's no magical rule set forth by word of god that this has to happen. The most negative impact of just dropping a race without build up is some minor lore inconsisties and that's it.
It's very rare they take full on live Q&A, with people lining up. Almost every one of their Q&A has been collecting questions before hand and picking which to answer. But of course he's going to be asked about them inevitably. And he is constantly asked about plenty of things consistently, like Egi glamours etc. You seem to think that just because he'll be dogged in the future regarding it means he won't do it? He didn't get his position because he was afraid of saying no. If he does a new male only race, he will have his own justification for doing so, and that will be what matters in the end. He's not afraid to stand to his convictions and decisions, even in the face of blowback. Especially over something as minimally damaging to the game as a genderlocked race would be.Quote:
In person requests started in the west and continued until JP and even Korea joined in. Prescreened questions are a thing, yes, but unless they plan only taking written in questions from this point on, its inevitable for a comment to slip through.
Proof? Because that looked like a straight up, just walk up and ask your question type of Q&A. Show me people screening them and turning away people. There's not much of a way to screen people in real time, especially when they can lie about what they're going to ask.Quote:
he was "prescreened" as well, after all.
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02-10-2019, 05:00 AMRokke
Im going to ignore the beast tribe comments because I don’t want to blow out my back from that reach.
Indeed, they were very secretive and not seen anywhere until patch 4.5, when we got a preview of what was to come with Fran in the same vein that Yugiri was a preview of what was to come.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
Except they didn’t. Again, We knew she was something else. We knew where she came from. We knew she and her people were on the run. We knew they opposed Garlemald. That is not existing in a void. That is not completely 100% in the dark. She did not exist before the scene of her stepping off the boat, I will give you that. But she did exist before Au Ra were revealed. There are no “But!”s: She existed before the reveal.Quote:
Except for all intents and purposes, they did. Their inclusion in Heavensward as a playable race offered virtually nothing new to the game's experiencable story. No story acknowledged them, even when you encounter the few other Au Ra that were present in Heavensward (Sidurgu and Mide, for example.) They don't go majorly out of their way. There was no precedence before, and Yugiri talked almost nothing about her race, only that she had a funny tail and ears/horns.
And yet they went out of their way to introduce Viera- a tshirt, a raid, a nod in the lore book. Were they secretive or more vocal about both races I would be more inclined to believe 2 races. But to purposely whip up the fans at the start of SBR’s media circuit only to pull the rug out from under them? That is hard to wrap my head around.Quote:
A new race absolutely does not need to have any kind of build up whatsoever. There's no magical rule set forth by word of god that this has to happen. The most negative impact of just dropping a race without build up is some minor lore inconsisties and that's it.
Quote:
It's very rare they take full on live Q&A, with people lining up. Almost every one of their Q&A has been collecting questions before hand and picking which to answer. But of course he's going to be asked about them inevitably. And he is constantly asked about plenty of things consistently, like Egi glamours etc. You seem to think that just because he'll be dogged in the future regarding it means he won't do it? He didn't get his position because he was afraid of saying no. If he does a new male only race, he will have his own justification for doing so, and that will be what matters in the end. He's not afraid to stand to his convictions and decisions, even in the face of blowback. Especially over something as minimally damaging to the game as a genderlocked race would be.
Proof? Because that looked like a straight up, just walk up and ask your question type of Q&A. Show me people screening them and turning away people
Redshirt guy posts on reddit, he is user/Dontinquire. He lied to the guy who was handling the mic: “I told the screener I was going to ask about their motivation for making the game and how the idea came about.” [1] [2] [3]
Thats wholly the point I was making. The norm at western events = live events where you either raise your hand and a person with a mic approaches you and screens you question before handing you the mic or you line up, a person with a mic screens your question, and then hands you the mic. Thats how the original bunny outfit got through. Thats how someone asked for peaches. Thats how someone spoke about his account being frozen because of mogstation issues with his bank. At NA’s fanfest there wasn’t anything stopping me from saying “I want to request a hot air balloon mount” to the screener and asking for a butt slider if they passed me a direct line to Yoshi.Quote:
There's not much of a way to screen people in real time, especially when they can lie about what they're going to ask.
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02-10-2019, 05:03 AMGwenoraiI agree with the point regarding rank and rule. So yes Yoshida can overrule. But that does bring up another question; he's very high up, and he represents Square. Regarding something that is as touchy as gender locking a race in our times. He reverted it once and was met with universal praise. While bringing it back, that's something that isn't going to meet with approval but seen as a backwards view. Yes, he'll be sticking to his guns - but in the end, it's going to hurt his image and squares. Because yet again, it's a backward view and people will glom on that. All it takes is folks to broadcast, Twitter, Reddit, Twitch etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
Now that backlash could be big or small, but the backlash is backlash. We only see a small amount of it regarding BLU, I've seen so much more in discords, twitter, Reddit and other social media outlets. TLDR; the forums are just a small part of it. People are screaming all over the place regarding BLU, and I imagine they will listen, they have to since the class is in such a sorry state.
I think the backlash would be considerable regarding male Viera.- - When people wanted Viera, I imagine they assumed that the male would be included because they removed the gender lock. No one thought they'd bring it back after what happened with the original gender locks.
- - Concept art showed both male and female; meaning the idea of the males wasn't entirely off the table. Along with the comment that they wouldn't show just the females.
- - Creating lore that would have the men confined in one specific area; who are aggressive to outsiders and then have us go to that area. In regards to the story; this would give a fantastic introduction. If however, they're going to use that lore to 'destroy' one part of a race's gender. That speaks of lazy writing, complete avoidance and a way to write them off in its entirety rather than expanding and adding to the lore.
- - While it's acceptable in Eastern MMOs; it isn't so much in Western MMOs, and that's where the money will haemorrhage. Yes, this is an Eastern MMO; but it has a huge western influence. Western MMOs do not have gender locks - why? Demographic, political correctness, etc. What do I mean by this? Eastern MMOs tend to go for sex appeal; the females are attractive and hot, or cute, petite, the men are rugged and strong. It's old backwards thinking. To me at least. Times have changed. More women playing, more people wanting to stray from the norm. Take me for example; I'm a female who wants to play as a male character. This isn't even including the LBGT+ community. Or just a man who wants to play as a Viera that is his own sex.
- - Business; in the end, this is all a business. Money matters. A new race will come, that's for certain. We have Viera, and that's a lot of money in Fantasias and the likes. A lot of money. Male Viera done 'correctly' close to the female but not straying too much; more money. A race that hasn't been shown or previewed or hinted at seems like more of a gamble in regards to that income.
In the end, gender locking will always be something that takes away from the freedom of the player who is affected by it. It stings even more in an RPG - and even more so in an MMORPG as there is no hiding from the choice they made. And while we can take the lumps and deal with it - there is no reason why those who were slighted should stay silent about it.
Honestly, I can't even imagine how irritated I'm going to be if there is no male Viera, and I'm surrounded by my friends who are happily playing their Female Viera - all the while seeing 'Bara lions' and thinking, 'this is what I got instead of my male Viera.' There is no hiding from that disappointment. -
02-10-2019, 05:55 AMxbahax92Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwenorai
Agreed. When I wrote in the Show your Support for Viera thread - I didnt really care much about female Viera. I wanted the whole race to be added, female AND male. They showed us Male Viera concepts, people started imagining how they would look like ingame, thats how the Viera thread started blooming, reached 234 pages since 2016....
This addition does not only influence Final Fantasy XIV fans right now, but also players who enjoyed other Ivalice games, people who were talking about male Viera years before in other forums and chats, people that created male Viera fanmade art...
Even if the backlash stays small, the disappointment will be HUGE and not only in FFXIV, but world wide. Right now they're trying to spread the word of male Viera's. Something that hasnt been seen in any other game. They're most likely playing with fire, if they are going to say "Sorry, no male Viera" at Tokyo FanFest. -
02-10-2019, 06:13 AMShippuuLol ok.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rokke
https://media.giphy.com/media/38fblIIrHLMPe/giphy.gif
I'll wait for you to provide a rule that states a new playable race must be teased before it's implemented.
Hmm, couldn't possibly be a common tactic used in all kinds of things called misdirection? Everyone's looking one way to then surprise with a reveal elsewhere. Pay no attention to the man behind the curtain.Quote:
And yet they went out of their way to introduce Viera- a tshirt, a raid, a nod in the lore book. Were they secretive or more vocal about both races I would be more inclined to believe 2 races.
For one, you act like they're purposely whipping up the fans, when they're more likely just trying to not spoil a surprise. Two, you act like this fanbase doesn't get whipped up over everything anyways. And three, they did exactly that with Blue Mage, having the CEO come out dressed as one, made a big dramatic show of it, to only "pull the rug out from under them" with it being a limited job. Of which they didn't even go into detail until the next day. They could absolutely do exactly the same thing with a new race.Quote:
But to purposely whip up the fans at the start of SBR’s media circuit only to pull the rug out from under them? That is hard to wrap my head around.
Those types of Q&A are exceedingly rare for this game, one to two a year if that and often don't last more than an hour and given translation has to happen very few overall questions get asked. The overwhelming majority of player Q&A is done via collecting questions beforehand. And even then, like I said before that you didn't address, in what reality is people asking about it going to not make him make that kind of decision in the first place? He's absolutely never been afraid to make decisions in this game that people wouldn't like and continue to ask about.Quote:
Thats wholly the point I was making. The norm at western events = live events where you either raise your hand and a person with a mic approaches you and screens you question before handing you the mic or you line up, a person with a mic screens your question, and then hands you the mic. Thats how the original bunny outfit got through. Thats how someone asked for peaches. Thats how someone spoke about his account being frozen because of mogstation issues with his bank. At NA’s fanfest there wasn’t anything stopping me from saying “I want to request a hot air balloon mount” to the screener and asking for a butt slider if they passed me a direct line to Yoshi.
People asking about DPS meters in game time and time again haven't made them really materialize in the game. People asking for add-on support hasn't made it happen. He's far from the type of person that would just crumple under the slightest bit of pressure from the playerbase. -
02-10-2019, 06:29 AMGwenoraiI actually don't recall one game where the developer hasn't teased an upcoming playable race. I honestly can't think of one. I'm sure there's some out there? But really, I can't think of one. Does anyone recall a developer doing this, ever? I'm actually curious if this is a business practice some developers do?Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
I honestly thought it was a given to communicate with your player base regarding such things; especially when the new playable race is locked behind a paywall. It gives them time to prepare or set aside funds. I know people who got HW just so they could play Au'ra when they only wanted to test the base game.
I can't imagine just starting up my game and suddenly wham, a new race. One that wasn't even hinted at until they implemented it. Why would I even bother to check the CC or buy a fantasia, why would I even prepare or go out and buy an expansion to lift the paywall? I certainly wouldn't preorder because of it, because I can't turn back time to do so. How would you use it as a selling point? And if they weren't using it as a selling point then it shows how little they actually care about it. They're not even bothering to hype it.
I don't know, I am confusion... -
02-10-2019, 06:44 AMShippuuHere's that assumption that a gender locked race being added to the game will somehow cause this very successful game to suddenly catastrophically fail? He reverted the gender locks before because 1.0 did fail to the point of damaging the Final Fantasy brand. He needed to do whatever he could to regain favor, and he did so by fixing as many of the complaints as he could.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwenorai
Once again people are greatly overestimating the kind of impact this would have. He's still adding the most requested race, and that's Viera that have only ever been shown as female. It's a much smaller demographic who wanted male viera, and if he thinks a brand new race would be better for marketability (especially when his primary goal is to get new players) then taking a chance on something different may pay off better than any small negative hit he might take.
Except he's come out saying Blue Mage was still a success, with something like 70% positive. So your personal anecdotes on how much complaining is going on may not be an accurate picture (nor could SE's statement on Blue Mage being positive).Quote:
Now that backlash could be big or small, but the backlash is backlash. We only see a small amount of it regarding BLU, I've seen so much more in discords, twitter, Reddit and other social media outlets. TLDR; the forums are just a small part of it. People are screaming all over the place regarding BLU, and I imagine they will listen, they have to since the class is in such a sorry state.
It would be loud for a little bit, but would certainly be far from "considerable". In the end he could easily just net brownie points again by implementing them in the future if it really was that bad of a situation.Quote:
I think the backlash would be considerable regarding male Viera.
Huge assumption. The game won't hemorrhage money if they don't put in male viera. This is some seriously overexaggerated doomsaying. There are plenty of MMO's on the market that have done just fine even with gender locking.Quote:
While it's acceptable in Eastern MMOs; it isn't so much in Western MMOs, and that's where the money will haemorrhage.
I mean, they do, one of the biggest upcoming western made MMO's is Crowfall which has had great success in crowdfunding (showing people are willing to finance it) and it has both gender and race locks to classes. Other western MMO's have done it in the past and you'd be hard pressed to prove it was because of gender restrictions caused them to fail and not because of plenty of other issues.Quote:
Western MMOs do not have gender locks - why? Demographic, political correctness, etc.
As I mentioned above, they want to attract new players, potentially people who have never played a Final Fantasy game in their life. By this alone, they may be more willing to try something new in order to attempt to appeal to a wider or untapped demographic. A new, more unique race could potentially do this and be more marketable than playable bunny guys.Quote:
Business; in the end, this is all a business. Money matters. A new race will come, that's for certain. We have Viera, and that's a lot of money in Fantasias and the likes. A lot of money. Male Viera done 'correctly' close to the female but not straying too much; more money. A race that hasn't been shown or previewed or hinted at seems like more of a gamble in regards to that income.
Everything they add to the game can negatively affect one player or another. Adding jobs as certain roles takes the freedom from players as well. Something that's almost purely only cosmetic like a player race, is less impactful than jobs/classes.Quote:
In the end, gender locking will always be something that takes away from the freedom of the player who is affected by it. It stings even more in an RPG - and even more so in an MMORPG as there is no hiding from the choice they made. And while we can take the lumps and deal with it - there is no reason why those who were slighted should stay silent about it.
And no one is saying anyone should stay silent about anything. By all means make noise if they don't happen. I'll be sympathetic for those who wanted it if it doesn't come. But there will also be people who would probably be happy to get something other than male viera if they weren't interested in Viera anyways.
I think you're conflating teasing a player race in general, to direct in-game teasing. I was talking specifically about the argument that no new race could possibly be added to the game because there's nothing in the current lore/game that hints towards it. (Which isn't necessarily true anyways, there could be hints and we just don't realize it.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Gwenorai
World of Warcraft is a prime example, when they announced their allied races and pulled a new one out of no-where basically in the Void Elfs. They didn't exist until you did the unlock scenario in game that showed their creation.
Guild Wars could be an example of this depending on how you consider Guild Wars 1 to Guild Wars 2, where they made up a brand new race that wasn't anywhere in Guild Wars 1. Could be argued they're different games, but part of the same IP and story/setting.
Adding races to MMO's isn't a particularly common practice anyways because it's a ton of work, so examples will be few and far between of either way.
Did your friend buy it before they even announced Au Ra? Did they buy it purely on the fact Yugiri was in the game? It'd be no different with this potential new race. It'd be announced and advertised.Quote:
I honestly thought it was a given to communicate with your player base regarding such things; especially when the new playable race is locked behind a paywall. It gives them time to prepare or set aside funds. I know people who got HW just so they could play Au'ra when they only wanted to test the base game.
They'd have 3 months to hype up any new race, combined with the fact the next fanfest will be close to the time they would be releasing the benchmark anyways. A new race would be advertised and the word would be out there.
Yeah, you're definitely mistaking that I was talking about a build up/hints in game leading up to the announcement of the race.Quote:
I can't imagine just starting up my game and suddenly wham, a new race.
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02-10-2019, 06:56 AMFlandlol what design?Quote:
Originally Posted by InkstainedGwyn
It's exactly the same as the original female only version.
They basically just.... removed the lock.
Anyway,
I don't know if this have been mentioned before, but I'm hoping that the reason they hold the reveal of male viera is because there will be an important male viera msq character with unique model (a la aymeric/gosetsu/hien) who will be present in the full ShB trailer (perhaps in the extension of Urianger/Y'Shtola scene?), and they don't want to reveal the full trailer yet until JP fanfest. -
02-10-2019, 07:00 AMCrushnightPlease stop exaggerating Player characters do not exist only your own character exists in any story within the game you also said yourself with Au Ra how absent they were in HW and how it took till we went to Othard in SB to start seeing an actual healthy population of them. Viera will be no different we might get a few npcs outside the wood but any sort of a decent population will be confined to those woods.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
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02-10-2019, 07:07 AMGwenoraiNo one is assuming the fall of a game, I'm saying the backlash is something to consider. That repeating mistakes that a previous developer made is not the way to go. He took a step in the right direction, he looked at those complaints and he fixed what he could. This is a good developer. You know what isn't good? Going from that and then slapping a gender lock back onto something again.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
We've just had our first limited class.
There is a possibility that we will be getting our second-course of limited races.
- It doesn't help that this will be one after the other that is starting to make people uncomfortable. I honestly expect Dancer to be female only at this rate if the sole reason that Viera male isn't added is due to them being uncomfortable about it due to 'cuteness'. So now we're going to have a bunch of strapping young lads dancing around with grace and elegance.
How is this okay? Because it worked with other communities it'll be fine in this one? I really do not understand this logic where something bad has happened, you revert it, but then you add it back in again and NOT expect people to think that was an idiotic move and not go 'wtf'. He is a smart man, I can't imagine this happening because of how stupid it sounds on paper.
He reverted a gender lock, the community thought that was the end of it. He asked for races, people voted Viera. The assumption can be made that due to what happened and how silly it would be to return to those times that male Viera would be included.
As for the demographic, no one knows that demographic because we don't have that data. That's just as much of an assumption to make than people assuming that a gender locked race is going to make people flinch away from it.
70% positive? Where are you getting that, where are they getting that? Don't tell me they're getting that number from how many players are active vs how many actually picked up the quest. Or is it an on forum poll where only a small portion of the community voted? The same argument could be said for the race poll as well I suppose.
If he's adding in a new race for marketability he should do what all people do when they're trying to make a profit. Advertise their product. Where is the advertising for this new race? We don't know, they haven't shown it yet. Viera was used for marketability right on time for preorders. Where is the other one? If there new to FF then the current races aren't going to matter; they wouldn't have seen those races before!
And while adding in a completely new race could be the better option, it doesn't look all that great when the race you're adding is supposedly another feline race when you already have one! Out of all the things to pick from and then, they're just going to slap on a gender lock on that one as well. Creating a brand new race is one thing, something that is new and unique to the game that a lot of people can enjoy, like au'ra. But to create a brand new race and then slap a gender lock on it is a new thing entirely. It'd be like releasing Aura again but only having one gender.
If they're going to gender lock Viera then I'd rather they didn't gender lock the other race that has no need to be gender locked. In fact, I'd rather have them not release any other race at all if they're just going to lock them.
As for the friend, no, they're new. They bought into after seeing others using that race and thankfully for them, it wasn't gender locked.
Sigh - I honestly can't be chuffed to argue anymore; as we just end up talking in circles and then over exaggerations on what the other is saying. Actually getting lowkey tiresome. So I'm just going to leave it as agree to disagree and the likes. -
02-10-2019, 08:01 AMRodaI mean they had to model, uv, texture, and weight the outfits to fit the males' bodies. "Design" was a bad word, but they did have to develop them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Fland
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02-10-2019, 08:13 AMRokkeThey announced BLU as limited on it’s introduction slide and then further elaborated at the same event's live letter. I was there lol. They quickly explaining the limited nature of it AT THE SAME EVENT instead of letting people’s imaginations run wild till release, a few months later. We knew exactly what level it would stop at. We knew exactly how many spells we would learn on release. Most importantly: we knew exactly what we could and couldn't run with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shippuu
The equivalent would have been to introduce the female only race and explain that it was female only on day 2. Which they didn't. -
02-10-2019, 08:45 AMKupocoubo
We will soon reach 100 pages, Im so proud of y'all
Male Vieras 4 life
https://media0.giphy.com/media/gMzvpZFBM2Cqc/giphy.gif -
02-10-2019, 09:38 AMxbahax92The very first leak he mentions a new race, and 5 months later he talks about a 2. race... Something seems foul to me.Quote:
1. They have concept art already for the new areas and 2 jobs planned as well as a new race. One job has it's concept art and the other has animation data.
2. Viera isn't the only new race.
When Lupin got introduced with the SB Trailer, people thought about a new, playable race. Nobody knew about them. SE didnt announce anything like them during the SB FanFests, yet people made an small uproar about them - started speculating.
In the end, the Lupin ended up as unplayable race, as NPC's. Can only speculate about Revs being bara cats, being used as new-lupin race... -
02-10-2019, 10:19 AMredcurrant18I hope so. Eventually it would be amazing if we could get a bestial race like Lupin or Ronso but now is not the time nor the place.Quote:
Originally Posted by xbahax92