Speaking of adult things, you know someone really got to you if you're creating a signature just for them.
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10-10-2023, 02:06 AMBoblawblah
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10-10-2023, 02:28 AMBRVVThe "adult thing" according to most of this forum will probably be to ignore everyone labeled as "trolls" which would very likely include Ren. Avoiding confrontation to stay in your comfort zone is just that, avoidance. I decided to engage yet again and tried to get "lessons learned" out of it. Tried to formulate what Ren does wrong in his posts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
Added: Maybe i shouldn't get too into all of this. Questioning why i bother anyway. How did i get 865 posts on here? Can't remember much information i got from all of those posts. Removed the rules because they were in deed a bit cringe. -
10-10-2023, 03:27 AMRenathrasThis is known is bait.Quote:
Originally Posted by BRVV
It's really odd to me you consider me toxic when I'm trying to be mature and polite by not engaging in tit for tat with you.
But as I told you in yet another thread you're harassing me in: I want to discuss the topic, you want to discuss me. If you can't see the problem with that, I can't help you.
But in general, when a situation gets heated and someone says "Look, this is just a bad situation, I'm going to back out", heckling them and insulting them as they back away is you being the rude and toxic one. It reminds me of that Monty Python skit about "I'm here for an argument".
"Oh I've had enough of this!"
"No you haven't."
"Shut up!"
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uLlv_aZjHXc
"Argument Clinic"
...but you're a good baiter considering I keep replying despite myself. Hm. Guess I should stop.
The weird thing to me is I wasn't even talking to that person. I wasn't talking to anyone in the thread at all in my initial reply, and then was talking to some other people. Then this one comes in and spends the next 2-3 days even going to the healing forum to try to countermand me more there as well, even despite an other discussion going on, derailing that thread. It's...weird.Quote:
Originally Posted by Boblawblah
The latest tactic is to call me a troll over and over again, though not exclusively to that person, despite the fact I've never shown such behavior, try to re-rail the topics that they derail, and actually put thought into my posts instead of just insults, bait to drive engagement, and then more bait to draw people in who are trying to disengage, including insults as they depart. Weird how the people calling me troll are being more trollish...perhaps that's their intent. Wouldn't be the first time, considering Titan went and made an entire impersonation alt.
I honestly don't even know what I do to get so under their skins to live rent free in their heads. It's just weird at this point.
But I'm sticking this all in HB, time to get the thread back on track.
Anyway, in light of that:
I'm seeing a lot more people saying that 6.5 they liked, but collectively, everyone seems to agree that 6.3 and 6.4 were complete lackluster stumbling about.
I hope in the future, they can learn a lesson from this with their patch storytelling and do less of it. Too little development of the villains, too quick resolution, too many "come back in 4 months" "cliffhangers", too much time spent on new emotes in lieu of it, and too little referencing of characters that would make sense for the story (e.g. Unu and Gaia). -
10-10-2023, 03:47 AMBRVVThis isn't "Look, this is just a bad situation, I'm going to back out". You have now claimed to have said something before that you didn't. It's like you misremember what you wrote. You know i can read older posts of you?Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
What it is is insulting me and others. Throwing stuff like this out is not reasonably leaving the debate. It's throwing a fit and trying to have the last word without contribution to the discussion. I would also describe this as bait. If you really believe you are innocent and not an aggressor than i honestly have a hard time believing you have friends you can have longer conversations with unless they aggree with you on everything or ignore you.
The HBars and the "sticking to the topic" does not make you better than me. At this point i genuinly just want you to keep insults out of your posts. Otherwise i fear you will get ignored by a growing number of forum users. -
10-10-2023, 04:10 AMSilverquick
There's all kinds of things that just... well cringe on it.
Even the latest one, they're going around to the crystal tower in the world of light, trying to "convince" people its ok. When they should have just said from the beginning... we're actually draining some of the light from this world to send it to the world of darkness and hopefully balance both worlds. I don't thing anyone there in the 1st was going to say no to sending all that excess light somewhere else... but no instead its "but but the Warrior of Darkness needs it".
A lot of cheezy and stupid stuff like that, which makes no sense in the context of what's happening or their world. -
10-10-2023, 06:34 AMVahlnirYeah. I mean, they've always dealt with the political and moral aspects of certain things, even if it was just running around to get the a-okay from local residents and leaders. But this situation specifically was just needless trekking around for the sake of it. They really wouldn't have cared. lolQuote:
Originally Posted by Silverquick
Leader A, B, and C:"The Warrior of Darkness needs-"
The citizens: "Cool. Enjoy."
It really was that simple. We didn't even have to be there. Could have sent a messenger and waited a couple hours in our quarters in the Crystarium. Probably eating an also needlessly high res sandwich. -
10-10-2023, 07:36 AMNayukhuutThat cutscene wasn't one for one. It was meant to be a stylised thing. Even then, her forcing her will on them was still wrong since it has been said, even in canon, that her faction was the minority. Imagine nowadays if some fringe group basically said we are doing this, wiped out the entire population, and then set up people that schooled whatever remained in how they should act. That was basically what Venat did. It drives me nuts that the story treats it as okay because the Ancients were apparently beyond saving (because we are constantly told no one is without hope). They had just gone through serious trauma, of course they were not exactly doing well at the time. Venat had no right to decide for an entire population what they should do. Even worse than that, she decided, and then killed everyone. :(Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
As for Ancient creations not reaching Meteion... Are we forgetting that Meteion herself was an Ancient creation? I am sure that if the best minds of the time were actually allowed to study the problem they could have come up with something. Sunder themselves purposefully, or make more creations for the purpose of going and fighting her. I dunno. They were never given that choice though. They were never told what was going to happen. Venat just sort of decided her people were not worth saving and genocided he lot of them to make way for new planets full of people she found more palatable led by gods she put there instead of one she apparently didn't like as much.
I would also like to point out that her Sundered worlds also require constant maintenance too. If we do not pray to the Twelve, the stabalising mechanism put in place will fail. So really, saying she is better than Zodiark rings hollow.
Also sorry, I would have quoted you in full but the forum text limits are draconian.:( -
10-10-2023, 07:41 AMTheodricOn that note, you can get around the text limit if you edit a post after submitting. So you could write up a lengthy post, cut it in half, post the first part and then edit in the rest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayukhuut
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10-10-2023, 07:43 AMNayukhuutOh, thank you. I wasn't even aware. Usually it is not too much of an issue, and I don't intend on writing novels by any means, but it seems that the default text limit is just set rather low.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
Thank you kindly for the tip. :) -
10-10-2023, 10:22 AMRenathrasYes, it is, and we're well past the point of having a cordial conversation about it due to your posts. So I'm not engaging further.Quote:
Originally Posted by BRVV
If you're damned and determined to do so, you can, but that's you being the troll and trying to derail the topic and keep it talking about one person, not me.
I wonder if this is just a personal taste thing, but...I liked that part. Better than the eating random foods emote sessions.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vahlnir
What I liked about it was seeing that the First hasn't been frozen in time since we left. We see that the political situation has continued to develop and people have continued to do things. In an MMO, it's easy for zones to get "timelocked" where they have their main story concluded and are never touched again. So while in "the real world", you'd expect things to progress, in the game, they don't. That one NPC is still yelling in the background "We must SAVE my FAMILY!!", everyone's in the same spots they have been, and there's no clear advance of time on the maps or in any quests.
I think stuff like this is useful for showing progress, and personally, any time I go back to Crystarium for quests I get a bit nostalgic, so I kinda like that. But it's nice to hear from the NPCs in dialogue and stuff thta things have proceeded. Sure, it's mostly minor stuff to be expected, but that's still nice to see. The Chais are doing good, and it's always pleasant checking in with Lady Chai anyways. The Nights' Blessed part was neat because we actually got to see more of their philosophy regarding the Light and the Dark, and that it's much more an ideology of balance which recognizes too extreme in either direction is dangerous rather than mere worship of the dark. It was nice hearing that the political situation is continuing to evolve with the survivors on Norvant, even if things are still somewhat tense, and that the people haven't forgotten us or G'Raha, as well as checking in with Lyne again. I also generally like checking in with Beg Luk, the Matoya of the First imo.
I dunno, quests like that I actually do enjoy because they flesh out some lore and they move the time clock forward, and it was nice just walking around Crystarium and listening to the music again.
I didn't realize there were a lot of people that outright didn't like that sort of thing.
EDIT:
Yeah, understand. That's why I have to edit posts so much. Also the daily limits.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayukhuut
As to the topic:
I THINK what the story was saying was that they would have (or outright did) refuse her when she brought it up. Though things are a bit vague there, so it could go either way.
The way I took the story was it was telling us the majority had decided on Zodiark and "Plan: Genocide". Then enacted it. Leading up to that time, she argued against the Zodiark/Genocide strategy and was rebuffed. After the Zodiark plan went into motion, she then went to the people again, having seen the loss of 75% of their population, and asked them to turn from that path. But even then, they weren't interested and would have refused.
The cutscene was stylized to be sure - I was making that point as well, hence the one-to-one thing (e.g. the crowd there was supposed to represent all Ancients, not just a dozen or so, so we agree on that) - but I took it as her having made several attempts and them either not believing her or thinking the Zodiark/Genocide plan was the better choice for them, and that they were extremely selfish to the point of being okay with mass genocide if it would get their old life back, at which point they would have ended up like the Ra'La people, which has been stated by the writers as what WOULD - not might or could, WOULD - have happened to them if they followed that path.
In other words, they were not only committing genocide themselves, but even doing so, they would end up having mass-suicided themselves in the end anyway.
It's also not expressly said in FFXIV that they all died when Sundered. At least, I've never found any lore reference saying so. I think some people took that from a game with a crossover, but there's no concrete lore from FFXIV itself that suggests it.
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So taken together, what the story seemed to be saying as far as I can tell was:
1) Venat went to the Convocation and talked to them, but they either didn't believe her or didn't agree with her plan.
2) The Convocation developed plan Zodiark/Genocide.
3) The majority went along with it due to promises of getting their old lives back.
4) 50% of their population was sacrificed to summon Zodiark. 25% more (50% of the remainder) again to have him restore life and stability to the land. A stability that would not be permanent as it would require Zodiark to be continually fueled.
5) The next stage of the plan was to raise lesser lives, including sentient or semi-sentient ones, and then genocide THEM for the sake of the Ancients. Remember, at this point in time, the Ancients did not consider non-Ancient life, no matter how sentient, to be actually alive. Emet's statement of believing we were not alive, argo killing us was not murder, was the norm. We see this in Elpis where they kill things and play god with no one other than Hermes having an issue with it.
6) Venat went to the people again at this point to try to talk them out of the Genocide part of the plan.
7) The people were gung-ho cult following on plan Genocide and refused to turn from that path. They were 100% going to Genocide everything else on the planet.
8) We also know that, despite all of this, EVENTUALLY, they would have fallen, either to self-destruction like the Ra'La people, or to Zodiark's barrier eventually failing and the Song of Despair consuming the universe anyway.
9) It is VERY LIKELY they still would have refused to believe the story about Meteon, and would not have helped. And we have nothing in the story suggesting they would have succeeded had they tried. And even had they done so, we still end up at the Genocide + Suicide by Ra'La fate, meaning they'd already be the bad guys at this point owing to the mass genocide they would have, by that point, perpetrated on all life on the planet other than their own.
10) It is at this point that Venat believes there is no hope in convincing them otherwise, and that the only way to actually deal with Meteon is through the Sundering process.
The problem is, we don't know some key points.
We don't know what she talked with the Convocation about, how much she told them, and how much she did not.
We also don't know, though we have reason to suspect, the post-Zodiark survivors had no interest in dealing with Meteon, because at that point they still considered themselves gods and that Zodiark could protect them from anything, which is likely not true regarding the Song of Despair. So even had she outright said so to them, it's unlikely a people that closed minded as they were at that point would have moved on it, since they would likely have considered it "not my problem".
And, it all hinges on whether she is right about what the Convocation would do, how it would react, how Hermes would react, and how the masses would react (though she was right about that one as we can see from the Final Days related dungeons).
The problem to me is, those are...really key points that we don't know the answer to. Yet they're essential to determine whether or not she was right.
BUT, one thing is certain: The people she Sundered WERE planning on, and would have carried out, actual genocide, and genocide against innocent people were Venat has at least the dubious "moral justification" of the people she Sundered being the genociders, not merely genocidees. We also saw this with the Ascians later, and again Emet's quote. Is it morally right to murder a murderer is where that question leads to, but it doesn't change the fact the person murdered WAS a murderer - the surviving Ancients, in this case, being genocidal.
But it does seem she made attempts. Would the result have been different had she been fully forthcoming with information? We have no reason to believe that it would, and we've been told that the end result would have been worse. I'm not sure that justifies what Venat did, but it does show that the people she did it to were every bit as bad and were not saints or heroes or innocents themselves. -
10-10-2023, 01:57 PMNayukhuut
I will respond to the numbered posts, because well, I like structure.
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1. She never gave the Convocation the facts. She went up and expected them to side with her, but never told them why things were happening the way they were.
2. Zodiark was not a genocide. The life sacrificed to him by the time he was sundered was willing. It was a sacrifice, yes, but a willing one. The best plan they could come up with since they had none of the facts.
3. They went along with it originally because they wanted to save their planet, and Zodiark was the last ditch best plan they had since they had no idea what was causing the problems. If your house burnt down wouldn't you want to rebuild?
4. Zodiark had brought the land back. That was done. He had given them the time they needed to breathe and allow the world to start healing and growing again. If they had gotten together and defeated Meteion, he wouldn't have been needed anymore
5. Emet's idea towards us was not the same as the Ancient's towards life. He considered us such directly because of the Sundering. Also, the life they wanted to let flourish to sacrifice towards Zodiark was never stated to be sentient or non sentient. It was just called new life. This could have been a combination of animals, plants, etc for all we knew. It might have been no different than the way we harvest crops and animals for sustenance, but on a much larger scale.
And the Ancients had great respect for life. Hermes just couldn't get out of his sad bubble to see it. Elpis was a lab where new subjects were tested. We do the same now with experiments we create. It was a control to make sure that new flora and fauna they literally brought to life would not hurt the greater world. The sidequests in Elpis absolutely showed they cared though. They honoured the dead, and took steps to exhaust every avenue before they had to put something down.
6. Yeh, she talked to them... and when the greater part of the population choose to ignore her she decided for an entire people what she was going to do.
7. Not everything. A portion of new life so that the people trapped inside Zodiark could be returned to the Star and allowed to die.
8. The Nibirun people were not beyond saving, the Tribal quest proved that. Beyond that, how are the Sundered any better. They could meet any of the fates the other people from Dead Ends saw too. If they had dealt with Meteion, the Song of Despair would have been moot.
9. They could refuse all they want. The Echo exists. They could have been shown. She put a tracker on Meteion. She had evidence.
10. I get that. I still think she was wrong. Or at the very least the story should stop propping her up as the loving hero and acknowledge the sheer amount of blood on her hands. Not in a passive way where she says she did bad but we all pat her on the back and make her feel better, but in an actual way that acknowledges the horrors she committed and paints her in the same light as any other villain we faced.
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Oh, and one more thing... even if she didn't straight up destroy and reform the life, what she did still resulted in memory and identity death of an entire civilisation. Are you honestly telling me that if someone came along in the story now and said that they were going to wipe away everything we were, everything we loved, and everything we accomplished, that we wouldn't fight that tooth and nail? Because Venat did that, but we are expected to praise her for it. -
10-10-2023, 07:10 PMVolgia
I feel like I need to play the 6.1 - 6.5 patches through and through without all this waiting to see how it feels. 5 months cliffhangers makes the story feel kind of slow, to the point I kind of forget what I liked or didn't like from the early patch 5 months ago.
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10-10-2023, 09:03 PMjameseoakesI'm going to follow up on the first 4 points,Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayukhuut
As far as we can tell Venat did nothing during the final days itself and did little to try and help and as far as the game shows had no plan to forestall the disaster itself, if I remember she even says she can't do anything to the sociopath that orgastrates it as he's needed as orginally he figures out the stuff about it hitting the areas with weaker atherial currents first. So there seems to have been no attempt by Venat to either mitagate the end of days or have a plan other than the Zodiark plan.
Summoning Zodiark had nothing to do with getting there old lives back, by the time he was summoned it was to prevent the complete annihilation of life on Etheris, by the time they do it the world is functionally already dead as the atherial currents that allowed life to propagate were dead, hence the second sacrifice which was needed to allow any kind of life on the planet -
10-10-2023, 10:12 PMNayukhuut
Yeh. Though the timeline of events we were given was fuzzy, it sounds like she let them summon Zodiark and then started lobbying her point. Zodiark was necessary for her plan too, after all. I always really did hate her logic of why she never told the Convocation what was up. She knew as much as Hermes what was happening. Hermes only knew more about Dynamis because no one else really cared. If she had gone up to the Convocation and told them what was up, perhaps they could have used that information to actually find a solution to the problem rather than just the stop gap they came up with. If they put their best minds on studying Dynamis, they prolly could have made quite a bit of progress.
Sadly we will never know. :( -
10-10-2023, 11:32 PMXireanI'm going to play devils advocate for a bit on this. (Note I still disagree with her) Perhaps her thoughts were that she needed Zodiark to be constructed without her interference because if she got involved it could influence the end result and make it less helpful. The WoL told her how long Zodiark had been around so that's a timeline of Zodiark working and working in pieces, but the WoL has no idea how Zodiark is actually constructed. By getting involved and changing the plan then her thoughts could be "maybe I could make things better, but I know this idea worked so I shouldn't risk that plan not working".Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayukhuut
Still convoluted and idk if I'm even doing that logic train justice. -
10-10-2023, 11:37 PMLunaxia
As a random aside, am I crazy or did the writers at some point say that the concept of dynamis didn't actually exist when Shadowbringers was released and we first heard about the Final Days?
I swear they did, but I can't find the source anywhere. -
10-11-2023, 12:15 AMTheodricYou're correct - here's the source: https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...alkers_2_week/Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunaxia
'They hadn’t come up with Dynamis as a concept yet when ShB was released.' -
10-11-2023, 03:13 AMLunaxiaThanks! I was sure it was A Thing, but Google was letting me down.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
It's still kind of crazy to me how adamant some people are that Endwalker wasn't at all rushed or affected by the decision to turn it into one expansion instead of two, or that any other rendition of the story existed prior to Shadowbringers being released when statements like that from the devs are right there. -
10-11-2023, 03:58 AMTheodricYeah, it's really bizarre. I do hope some more snippets about what exactly went on behind the scenes come to light someday because the tonal whiplash from ShB to EW is honestly one of the most brazen and jarring things I've ever seen in a video game. Unfortunately it's also why I can't really bring myself to be excited about what comes next - because anything I do end up liking could very well find itself receiving similar treatment and just be hastily discarded and/or retconned on a whim.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunaxia
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10-11-2023, 05:11 AMVyrerus
What's crazy to me is that they apparently wanted to rush it because they weren't sure if they'd get another expansion to tell it or whatever their excuse was.
Yet here we are with rumors that Yawntrail will be a filler expansion.
We wouldn't need filler expansion if you'd just done 6.0 as a real, not rushed, bridge the story properly expansion... -
10-11-2023, 05:19 AMNebelheimI think they originally had it set up for 6.0 to be a garlemald expansion and exploring more of ilsabard and face off against possibly zodiark during the post patches then 7.0 focus on hydaelyn and endsinger and everything else. But they decided to wrap up the long storyline instead in endwalkers instead of continuing longer.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vyrerus
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10-11-2023, 05:44 AMVyrerus
Endwalker - Premature Ejaculate: The Story
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10-11-2023, 08:05 AMLunaxiaI feel like those days where they really pushed that honest sort of communication - or open communication at all, really - with the fans are slowly coming to an end. They put the effort in when they needed to save the game from the mess they got themselves in, but now they've achieved a reasonable degree of success they're defaulting to the usual mega gaming corporation behaviour that I suspect will continue unless they dig themselves into a hole again - and now they've managed to pull in the casual RP/ modder/ glamour obsessed communities looking for a new social sim, so long as they keep chucking overpriced outfits on the MS, inserting cyberpunk and modern glams into the game's gear and turning their head the other way at the venue spam, that's not going to be happening anytime soon. Keeping expectations low is probably for the best.Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
I kind of wonder how the devs feel about it, though, and where these decisions actually come from. -
10-11-2023, 08:22 AMHalivelI wouldn't be surprised if the decrease in open communication comes partially from the playerbase becoming as big as it did. It's not a phenomenon unique to game development - it's something you can see in daily life in different communities as well, albeit on a smaller scale (something like discord servers centered around some topic, for example).Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunaxia
It's one thing to communicate with smaller amount of people that mostly share the same view on the topic, and it's another thing to communicate with a community that bloated in size and, as result, has a huge variety of opinions that are objectively impossible to satisfy simultaneously. And wherever creators and members of said communities like it or not, at some point those who're in charge have to somewhat distance themselves and decide which path they're going to take in terms of project evolution (which will cause some people to like and some people to dislike those decisions). -
10-11-2023, 08:29 AMRieze_Xeero
Endwalker is not a bad story but not great either. Most of us liked it because of Elpis and Zenos w/ WOL working together and then the 1 on 1 battle. But mostly Elpis because we see Emet back. But honestly OP is right, Zodiark was a disappointment, Ancients story felt rushed and specially Venat, I still can't accept that we are all led to believe half of the planets population (or at least whats left of it) prayed for Zodiark and the other half for Hydaelyn. But we only saw a few praying and none for Venat's side. So it seems to be only her decision. And how can she be all that powerful to become that super strong primal? They said because her will is so strong that her prayers manifested itself. But why does on Zodiark's side they need a lot of people? For someone praying for the salvation in a dying world, you would think their prayers are stronger in numbers? Anyway I am just waiting for DT and hoping for the best. I still feel that overall EW is a disappointment in all aspect and it is because of FF16, they rushed things in FF14 because they are doing another game. For now FF14 ranking for me is this: Shb > HW > EW > SB > ARR & 1.0.
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10-11-2023, 08:33 AMHalivelTo add to this, I had a somewhat similar experience as a moderator in a discord server that grew in size over time, from like 10 users to thousands. It wasn't a particularly nice feeling to make decisions that would inevitably alienate some portion of the community, but they had to be done to keep the project going at all, because if you try please everyone at once - you end up with pleasing no one at all and potentially ruining the project entirely. The only thing you can really do in such a situation is to try to stick to a path that you feel is right for your project.Quote:
Originally Posted by Halivel
So personally here, so long as developers themselves are happy with what they're doing - I'd say they're on the right path. Even if some of those decisions feel weird to me at times. -
10-11-2023, 09:13 AMLunaxiaIt's a tricky subject. That's undeniably a part of it, for sure, but it's somewhat sanitising the truth; that invariably the path chosen will be the one that better appeals to the mass market in order to garner the most profit, and in so doing alienate older players who have enjoyed and supported the game for the majority of its life until that point. It might be the natural road to take - or at least the expected one, so far as corporations are concerned - but it's not necessarily a good one. I don't really think comparing a discord trying to get off the ground is exactly comparable to an established game that was already successful in its own right, either. There is no do or die here.Quote:
Originally Posted by Halivel
What we perceive to be the "right path" is subjective, of course, but I think there's a fair argument to be made against that. At this point, though, that is perhaps best left to time to either prove or disprove. After watching the game proceed in the direction it has done for the past two years, and what I've witnessed in the community, I'll be interested to see, to say the least. -
10-11-2023, 10:46 AMRenathrasHm...my thoughts on some of these, because I don't disagree with you entirely on the rest (some are things we don't know the answers to, like we don't know what she DID tell the Convocation, and we only suspect what she did and did not say):Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayukhuut
A. New life - we're shown in the short story where Emet has to kill the Phoenix (and I think an Elpis sidequest) that the Ancients didn't have the power to create life entirely. They could make a body that could live, but souls were not something they could create or destroy - or control. When they created life, sometimes a soul would come to inhabit it. The Ancients had no actual power over that, and the soul was independent of their actions. Meaning when they took those lives, they were not destroying something that was wholly their own creation. That was something that the mentioned in Elpis as well, and has somewhat...uncomfortable implications if you think about it. Imagine if you found out, for example, that the AI we're experimenting in the real world received souls once they had developed passed a certain level. Would "deleting" them still be allowable? Could they still be considered "property" of their owners? That's where we get to here, and it's philosophically uncomfortable to think about, honestly.
B. Again, there's no clarity at all that the Ancients WOULD HAVE gone after Meteon. Think back to the cutscene where Venat confronts them and tells them that their society wasn't ever perfect, it always had sorrow, but they insisted it was and had been perfect, raise their hands, and make offerings of live to get their "perfect" society back. Such people as believe their society is perfect and their god absolute would never listen to someone telling them about a threat at the edge of the universe. And even if they HAD listened, they would have insisted it was not their problem and that Zodiark would protect them. I don't see any rational for appraising that situation otherwise. So no, they would not have gone to deal with Meteon, and there's currently zero evidence that they would ever have done so at any point.
C. Sorta on the Nbirun. Keep in mind they were only saved AFTER their actions, not before them. It's unclear they would have been willing to accept the answer before the destruction of their society.
D. While you point out that not all life would be sentient, there is a lot of life that was sentient that they would not have seen as such because it was not at their level. Recall, for example, that Azem went rogue to save an island from a volcano while the Convocation was more than fine with letting everything there die. And that was a natural disaster, where here we're talking about them having made the conscious decision to cultivate and then mass murder all that life. Emet's position on the Sundered is probably very similar to how Ancient society as a whole would have viewed lesser, but still sentient, life. Regardless, though, it would still have been mass genocide.
E. The Echo didn't exist before the Sundering, so they could not have been shown things through it. The Echo in lore came into existence after the Sundering, where a lesser being with a portion of a soul of one of the Ancients who lived through the Final Days had those memories ever so slightly awakened by seeing a Starshower, specifically. This awakening to a bit of the soul's true nature is what allows all the Echo powers and protection from Tempering, even with the artificial Echo. And not all Echo powers allow walking in others' memories. The 1.0 WoL could actually interact with people in the past directly, and Krile can speak with animals through hers, for examples of other powers it grants.
F. Regardless, the scene with her talking to the crowd was meant to show that they were beyond reason. They would not have listened, no matter what she told or showed them, and they believed their world a perfect paradise and Zodiark a perfect god, so they would not have done anything about Meteon, too. That scene was meant to show how they were too far gone/too deep in their belief to accept any alternative. I think that was what that scene WAS trying to show us, though not everyone got it. Surely you've known someone in life that got so bought into something, no matter what you told them about it not being great, they wouldn't listen or would hand wave away your arguments? Basically, at that point, the Ancients had become an extremist cult. That was also displayed in the scene where she makes her arguments and they turn as one, raise their arms as one, and pray to Zodiark that they will surrender their life force to him if he will give them back their perfect world. That they were even willing to have a mass ritual suicide. I thought it was pretty clear what the scene was saying then - that they were beyond reason and beyond changing course.
G. I don't think the story showed her as some perfect person. She was a loving hero, she clearly loved people, even while Sundering, and she felt terrible for what she did. That doesn't make her PERFECT, but it does not require perfection to be a "loving hero". It only requires love (which she showed) and heroic action (in this case, self-sacrifice, which it also showed). Her long walk scene, she's beaten and battered and covered in blood, possibly not all her own. It made it pretty clear that she suffered immensely for her decisions and actions, but felt she had to take them anyway. You may disagree with that - though as I say up above, the narrative makes it pretty clear she was correct and the "what if" alternatives were not things that actually would have happened had she not Sundered them or had she come to them with everything she knew - but the narrative did make that clear in the telling. She shouldn't be painted as a villain because she wasn't a villain. She was painted in a similar light as Emet in the end, which is about right. She wasn't some cruel and heartless person who did everything for selfish gain - what makes a villain. She was a person trying to do the best she could with what she knew. And the story shows that she was ultimately right in most of what she said (and the only reason I don't say all is because the narrative does leave out some things so we don't know the rest).
I get this view that she wasn't perfect, and I agree with that view.
I don't get the argument that she was a villain. And notwithstanding that, her choices and decisions in the end were treated a lot like Emet's - as someone trying to do the best they could with what they knew who was heroic and suffered greatly for the sake of others. In the end, even Emet was treated that same way, notwithstanding being galled by it.
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I don't think we are expected to praise her for it, nor that anyone did (in the narrative).
I think we are only shown the why so that we can understand it, and that it was the best she could do with what she knew and what resources she had to take action with.
Perfect heroes are boring. Venat isn't perfect. But she was caring and loving, and she was a hero. Just as, in his own way, Emet was. And the game in the Alpha/Omega questline even lets you, the player, personally make your own judgement on that question. Which, personally, I thought was a nice touch.
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Oh, I should note one final line, this one from Emet-Selch in the cutscene when you summon him and Hythlodeus to help:
<looking at the WoL>
"Still, you must be commended. Our methods would not have brought mandkind this far."
In other words, he's saying the Ancients would not have made it there, even had they decided they needed to go after Meteon. So the "what if" argument of "Maybe they could have made it" is put to bed by Emet himself, who said they would not have. And if anyone WOULD know, it would be him. -
10-11-2023, 11:08 AMTheodric
It's a common misconception that the scene with Venat is an actual retelling of what went down but the timing doesn't fit and it's a deceptive, overly stylistic depiction of the events leading up to the Sundering. The game frequently seeks to deflect from the consequences of the Sundering by avoiding referring to it as it what it is at its core - an act of deliberate genocide and racial replacement with a dash of Dynamis focused eugenics thrown in for good measure.
The Sundered exist at the expense of the Ancients and are in no way the natural successors of Etheirys. The game simply lacks the stones to explicitly highlight that and hides it behind vague insinuations of 'love' and 'awe' aimed at the player character. Not only in regards to Venat but now with the Twelve as well. At least in Venat's case she actually interacted with the player character...if only briefly. I'm still struggling to figure out why the Twelve are so enthralled with the Sundered or downplaying the many atrocities committed in religious crusades or just life in general. It's hilarious that Yoshi-P referred to Hythlodaeus of all characters as 'scary' in a game where sexual assault, racism, war, betrayal, starvation, piracy and numerous other horrid things are common place.
This has all been discussed at length throughout this very thread, of course - and as mentioned the sources highlighting all of this are present in the video I linked a page or two back. I bring that up to spare everyone - and myself - the painstaking process of hunting down and posting the exact same sources for the hundredth time.
I'd also like to point out that both Ishikawa and Yoshi-P have both been rather weasel-worded when it comes to the situation with the Nibirun and that they were their vision for how the Ancients would 'probably' go if they didn't change at the point of time in the Final Days - it's neither stated as an absolute, and they had little reason to change because Venat failed to reveal the true picture, so blaming them for it is rather dubious as far as I'm concerned.
The story has consistently been fine with the Sundered being allowed to survive in spite of their many faults, and they're depicted as having a right to fight for that, so it's hypocritical in the extreme to say that it doesn't extend to the Ancients. A lot of Endwalker's writing directly undermines Shadowbringer's own messaging and even the patch content during this expansion cycle has failed to be consistent in terms of either messaging or morality. -
10-11-2023, 11:33 AMAbsimiliard
If anything, players should be bothered by the fact the writers didn't think we could handle the more nuanced story they were rather clearly setting up. We went from the more thought-provoking scenario of potentially everyone being in the wrong in how the Final Days were handled to this weirdly sanitized void of coddling and shifted responsibility.
Or am I mistaken? Have people really degenerated so much as to not be able to handle the thought of their fictional character and its patron being every bit as guilty as the enemies they've been fighting? I don't believe so, at any rate. -
10-11-2023, 12:55 PMRenathras
Honestly?
I think the "no one was really good" "twist" has become so commonplace, it's now the trope/cliche.
Reddit had a thread of people praising Myths of the Realm (saw it completely opposite of the threads here on the topic), and one of the things people were talking about is how refreshing it was to have gods that were actually good guys for once, not some various shade of gray or secretly evil.
I've seen a similar discussion with people that like the "edgy" versions of Superman telling off people that like the "pure good guy" versions as somehow unable to appreciate something better. But I think people, especially in uncertain and chaotic times (like the ones we live in) like to see good guys that are just genuinely good guys.
I don't think "everyone was wrong" is a compelling story, and it's certainly not brave or risky or fresh; it's been done so much, it's the common thing/trope/cliche at this point. For example, Venat being "the good guy" the whole time after all when everyone thought they were going to do a twist and make her "secretly evil the whole time" was refreshing since the "secretly evil the whole time" is so overdone that everyone was expecting it.
I'm not certain, but I think some of the opposition to Venat being good (NOT ALL, just let me make that clear, but SOME) was due to people that were so absolutely ready for that, their expectation was subverted and they weren't able to process "No, she was actually genuinely good the whole time". That's how cliche and un-interesting/un-creative the "secretly evil the whole time" has become. It's like the bad guy in the first Harry Potter or the bad guy who was Ares in Wonder Women were both obvious from the start since modern media doesn't tend to have good guys that are actually that good, so we know when we first are introduced to them they're going to be the bad guy.
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I think NOT doing the "everyone was wrong" story was the braver and more creative, less cliche move at this point.
Have I not pointed out it was stylistic several times?Quote:
Originally Posted by Theodric
In any case, I think this ultimately comes down to whether you buy into what ifs or not. If you buy into the what ifs, and ignore that many of them have either been somewhat or absolutely ruled out by the writers/producer (that is, if you ignore "Word of God"), then Venat COULD be wrong because MAYbe there was another solution.
But the game overall doesn't indicate that, seems to indicate the opposite, and the writer/producer have also held this position. That is, you can say you think they might have changed...but the story, writer, and producer are telling you they would not have. So you're having to say your view of the world is more correct than those who created it and literally wrote the characters and their decisions.
But we see this in real life, too - that people hindsight second guess and preach at people who, in the moment with imperfect knowledge, were actually making decisions and doing things.
As to your last point: The game has also been clear that cultists who will not change cannot always be reasoned with, and if they cannot, sometimes can't be saved. Lambs of Dalamud and some of the Dravanian cultists come to mind. People so convinced they were right, no amount of argument or evidence would convince them otherwise. We have those in the real world, too.
Oh, and Emet made it pretty clear that the Sundered ARE the natural successors of Etheirys in his mind.
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At the end of the day, you may believe whatever you want. But when the story, writer, and producer are all telling you something, and you have to reject what they're saying or hinting at as well as some things we do know about Human/sentient nature (Ancients would be included) and rely on hypothetical "what ifs" for your points to be valid, I don't think it's reasonable to expect people to agree.
I'm not saying you're wrong. But I'm saying at best your position is not objectively certain.
Either way, people believing what they want is great, and with that I'll make my way out of the thread, I think. -
10-11-2023, 01:07 PMPetThisMiqo
The story is fantastic and it hurts my soul to read all of the foul and hurtful words that the vocal loud minority are saying about it. Please take a moment to put yourself in the place of the writers who wave this immaculate tale and think about how they must feel knowing that you hate their story so much. If you truly dislike EndWalker so much then instead of attacking others you should look inside of yourself and understand that you do not belong here in our wonderous community. Leave us in peace and allow those of us who enjoy EndWalkers' tale to do so without your obnoxious screeching.
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10-11-2023, 01:26 PMAbsimiliardGood being good and evil being evil are by and far the norms in modern storytelling. Rarely do we see stories acknowledge the hero could just as easily have been a villain were it not for the story being told from their perspective/side.Quote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
The above aside, I might note people have a tendency to root for the underdog since it's something they themselves can relate to. This is why you see more people favoring villains or hoping for a more morally grey story these days. We know going into almost any given story the "good guys" will be vindicated and the "bad guys" will most likely die. It's tiresome, and an increasing number of people have grown weary of it. It's got nothing to do with making something edgy. It's simply about relatability and seeking hope. Hope not everyone sees in watching protagonists repeatedly trounce everything in their path without the least bit of consequences, let alone introspection as to whether or not what they're doing is even right.
For my part? I for one do not get a message of hope from seeing antagonist after antagonist crushed beneath the "righteous" heels of their "moral betters." If anything, it serves as a rather blatant reminder for some as to the fact most people are powerless - their ambitions, even their very lives hold no meaning or value to those with real power. Our society is for the most part ruled by those at the top, for it is they whose voices are heard and in turn influence even concepts such as right and wrong by directing the greater whole. There is no parity to speak of. You could spend your whole life fighting for what you believe is right and never make a dent. You might also be forced to watch as this thing you wholeheartedly believe to be right is perceived as outright villainous, because your betters have deemed it such. Where's the hope in that?
Rarely invoked though it is, allowing the villains of a story to have a point provides some semblance of parity and allows people to be more open and honest in their favoring of the "bad guy." In turn, allowing the good guys to be flawed - potentially gravely so -- brings things back down to earth. It adds more substance than simply "unga bunga, me good, you bad, me curbstomp now." It gives you something to think about. After all, truly well-written villains are indeed the heroes of their own stories. If that's the case, then why can't the opposite be true? Why shouldn't the heroes be the villains of their opposition's story once in a while? Protagonists don't always have to be in the right. -
10-11-2023, 02:43 PMOdinelStarrei
Theodric, you got a moment?
I was wondering earlier, "Why did I have such an adverse reaction to this patch? To the point that I would be willing to actually participate in a MSQ discussion, aren't I usually content with just world building and what not?"
I think I'm experiencing a significant amount of character dissonance. I'm not sure if my reactions to the events in the last expansion actually reflect the perspective of my current character. For reference, usually I took the god killing as a unfortunate means to an end, man is in control of their own fate, etc etc. Internalizing a lot of the Dark Knight storyline, as that is my headcanon job after the betrayal of 2.55, and with the knowledge gained in the Ratika Greatwood, and Amaurot proper, I think my character would have the option of being...a lot more morose. I have a personal interest in the collapse of developed societies and civilizations, and consider the preservation of history to be important, which is why I considered the Ascians and Omicrons inherently antithetical to my character no matter what their reasoning, as their methods led to entire worlds being deleted and the histories of those worlds being permanently lost.
I think a reason why I always have head gear that covers my entire head on every job is because I want to imagine what my character expression is myself. So when Asahi is going off on Yotsuyu, I know I want to kill him, and what that looks like on my character. When G'raha Tia fanboys over me, I know that I either look disgusted or sad. I know that when there are opportunities to grant knowledge or bring people together, I'm focused on the task. And I know that if there is a dialogue option that is "..." I'm most likely going to pick it, because of the honestly pretty traumatic experiences my character must have gone through over the course of FFXIV. As many misgivings I might have had about 5.X or 6.X, that ending cutscene of 5.0 where you're not actually celebrating with anyone at all, you're just looking at the Crystal Tower alone over a railing at the Crystarium was very in-character for me.
This Dawntrail thing. In the tail end of the 50 DRK quests, there's a part where Esteem prompts the idea of leaving Eorzea entirely and returning to a nobody, without the mantle of Warrior of Light. That's been sticking with me recently. I kinda hate all these characters now, and I don't think I'm even the main character of my own story somehow. All the characters I like are either on a different shard, busy, or their questlines are wrapped up in ways I probably did not like and I will probably never see them again (Mikoto...). If I had the opportunity to leave, to take a step away from Scions who I don't really enjoy being around, to explore new lands, or even better, return to the First and assist with the restoration of the Empty/Void (before this patch screwed all that up), would I have done that? And I think that I would. And having the Scions hop on board the boat with me overseas again just...exhausts me. I'm tired of being part of their group.
Something that I'm also reminded of is that QA where someone asked "What was Azem doing during the Final Days?" And the answer was "Whatever you think Azem was doing." And I think that was a dangerous thing to say. Because as essentially Azem-, I think that I would've been trying to stop Venat from the Sundering. My answer was "No one was right" in the Omega quest for a reason, and I think I may have a hard time moving on and accepting, yeah, this is the world state now. This is how things ended up.
This is rambling, I know, but I feel like...I've been railroaded this time around in ways that weren't apparent before, and it got to a breaking point this last patch where I was just constantly saying, I would not do this, and I turned on the entire plotline as a result. Not really trying to start a fight, just getting my thoughts out there. -
10-11-2023, 03:16 PMReynTime
I don't think there's anything wrong with black and white stories existing. Good wins unscathed and all. It's a problem in XIV because the game's story was developing into being a little more than that after 2.1. Endwalker's handling of how the good guys overcome threats can be summed up in that one cheesy cutscene from 2.0 A Realm Reborn where you see all characters yelling "YAAA" flying towards Lahabrea.
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10-11-2023, 03:40 PMHalivelPardon me for a later answer, it was 3am by the time you posted so I didn't see it until now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lunaxia
I agree that discord server isn't a perfect comparison, since those are usually non-profit projects and that alone simplifies a lot of things. That's what popped up in my mind though and what I had to deal with myself, so I used it.
My point in general was that even if the devteam wants to be as open as possible - at some point it becomes harder because of the sheer amount of users there are (which also means profits being brought in, since more people = more money involved, as you've mentioned, and that adds to the issues with communication).
And I'd agree that at this point it's best to see where it goes with time. The company as a whole will obviously push for more profits no matter what the development sector thinks about that. I can see during streams that they still have passion for what they do, and honestly so long as that's the case, I'll be glad for them. Now... if (or when) the moment comes where the devteam itself will stop having any love for the project because they strided away from what they wanted to make too far under the pressure of those from financial department, that's where it'll become truly disappointing for me. But that's also not something under our control, sadly, so we can only watch. -
10-11-2023, 05:30 PMTheodricYeah, I feel similarly - I'm a roleplayer and I never took the approach of my character being a Warrior of Light or even brushing shoulders with the Scions. He was just someone fairly normal living in the game world who liked to go on adventures from time to time.Quote:
Originally Posted by OdinelStarrei
Though I can completely understand people feeling disconnected from the Warrior of Light if they choose to imagine their character as one. I think it's pretty jarring how far removed from the professed ideals the actions of the Scions actually are. On the one hand, they insisted that no matter how hard it would be to face the truth the people of Ishgard needed to learn the circumstances surrounding the Dragonsong War. Now they're going around defiling their promise to 'Remember the Ancients'. Y'shtola claims to be writing a book on the subject but I'm not convinced that it will tell the raw, unfiltered truth or even reach the 'everyman' - since the Scions have already comitted to sanitising Venat's actions and covering up the origins of the Twelve.
The Scions also ruined Shadowbringers for me to a large degree. It's the furthest our character has ever traveled - outside of Ultima Thule - yet every prominent Scion was present which meant that only Ryne and Lyna served as consistent companions whilst exploring a new world...and the latter fell away after the first zone.
I can't really get excited for Tural on that basis alone. We're not only stuck with the Scions once again but the story is heavily implying that everything is going to revolve around Sharlayans past and present. I'd have much preferred a clean slate and with only two or three of the Scions deciding to come along for the ride or none at all.
As for Yoshi-P's answers during various Q&A sessions, I do think it's unfortunate that he's telling people to go with their headcanon since the game is so far removed from the idea of giving the player any real agency. I would have loved for the Warrior of Light to want to learn more about the Ancient world and even be saddened and nostalgic towards Amaurot. Instead our character never once really pushes back against Venat to point out how messed up it is to deliberately inflict genocide upon one's own species and then replace them with something altogether different.
It's why I simply laugh whenever the game tries to insist that Venat is a 'good person'. She really isn't. Our character saw Emet-Selch's recreation of the Final Days and then later went back in time - repeatedly - to directly interact with numerous Ancients. All of which proved to be very friendly and even showed kindness towards what they saw as 'Azem's Familiar'. It's pretty weird that the game expects me to be fine with the player character doubling down on the abandonment of the Ancients to a grisly fate knowing that they'll be holding the broken remains of their loved ones.
Even worse? The game will very likely continue to trot out that tiresome and hypocritical quote favoured by Louisoux:
"To ignore the plight of those one might conceivably save is not wisdom—it is indolence." -
10-11-2023, 06:29 PMNayukhuutQuote:
Originally Posted by Renathras
Sorry, your posts are getting a little long to address entirely. I know you CAN skirt the forum length limits, but I dislike constantly doing so. I will try and respond to a bit. :(
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A. They create life that has aether, and that aether is what they needed. Again, it's really no different than us harvesting animals and plants for our own end. A thing both Sundered and real life people do.
But yes, it was up to the planet whether it got a soul or not.
B. Why wouldn't they have gone after her? They only came up with Zodiark because they were trying to stop the assault on their world. They had no idea what was causing that assault. There was also zero reason to think they would not have gone after the root cause if they had known.
C. Unclear, but still a chance. Still pretty far from the definite "The Ancients were screwed because of this" argument that tends to go around.
D. We, again, do not know that for sure. They could have easily been meaning to sacrifice things like plants, elementals, animals, etc. We don't know. Beyond that, I would argue that their reverence for life was more than the Sundered have. The Sundered are constantly killing each other for much less.
E. It absolutely did. Venat was the one who showed us how to channel it when we saw the flashback with with Hermes setting off his creations. Our Echo is basically just weaker versions of things a lot of Ancients could already do.
F. I don't even know where to start with this. Talking to traumatised people and being mad they won't listen to you is not an excuse to force your will on them. They fell back on Zodiark because that is all they thought they had. The Ancients were intelligent and scientific. There is no reason to think they wouldn't have gone after the cause of their problems.
As for wanting their world back, why is it bad when they want a return to normalcy, but okay when say, the 13th does? The 13th wants their old world back, but we support Zero and Golbez as they go to try and fix it. Screw the Ancients, though, right?
G. We are just gonna have to agree to disagree here, since I do not think she was heroic. I think she was a cowardly ideologue who enforced her will on others. She claimed that mankind should stand on their own, and was angry when people didn't agree with her. She destroyed the world and set up mechanisms to keep her broken world in place because reality actively fights against the unnatural state she put the planet in.
Venat is not a hero, and she's not a good person. She certainly is only loving if you agree with her. If you don't, well, ahh well. Your life doesn't matter.
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And yes, I am aware I have more faith in the Ancients than Emet did in the end. But please do also remember that all the the Ancients and later the Asians could never have formulated a proper plan because Venat hid the truth from them. -
10-11-2023, 06:47 PMHalivelI feel like, ironically enough, the one who apparently was trying to actually be heroic was the current Azem of the time (aka unsundered WoL). We don't know where they were during the last days and what exactly they did, but we know they denied both Convocation and Venat's plans. And judging by what we know about them from the side stories (specifically the one where they went as far as stealing Ifrit concept to save an island from a falling meteor) it's honestly safe to assume that they tried to do something. Obviously, those actions weren't successfull... the question is, what could've been if Venat didn't keep the truth to herself. It's sad to think that there was at least one person with mind creative enough to come up with crazy emergency plans and said person simply wasn't given any chance to fight the root problem in a targeted way.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nayukhuut
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10-11-2023, 09:06 PMNayukhuutI liked that too. They didn't agree with either plan, and went off to do whatever they wanted to do. Logically I know it is because the writing staff is leaving it vague on purpose, but I appreciate that I can at least pretend Azem was out there trying to save their people until the last second. It's what I would have done in that situation. Heck, it is what I wanted to do at the end of Elpis.Quote:
Originally Posted by Halivel