Yoshi P talks about Warriors- from Producer Letter Live @ TGS

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Originally Posted by Warthain

has a warrior i was able to tank all fates without a healer 50 except behemoth, and odin for obvious reasons... im able to heal through most spike dmg from bosses and trash mobs in dungones due to clever use of drain skills, and healing abilities....

all this QQ about warriors being weak is pure bullshit, i have no complaints about this class, i was a dragoon and i felt the need for faster queues to farm tomes so i levelled a warrior, came has surprise people on forums think they do poorly in end game tanking, but it's not true, warriors feel solid and resilient, they take much more damage than paladins but with their abilities and larger hp pool, you can take the blows and heal back up easily if you know what youre doing...

i would just change the one ability i think is bad, steel cyclone the one that ignores 30% of defiance damage debuff, i see no purpose on this skill over the other wrath dependant abilities... it really needs a change ... its clearly a case of L2p for most warriors out there if they think warriors are bad.

on a side note i would take the damage debuff component out of defiance ... it would really help warriors do what their supposed to do, while adding extra dps that will still not be on par with dps classes but become very usefull on making some fights a lot faster, of course that would also make unchained useless so it would also need a change in that particular skill. But by no means i think warriors are bad, just think they could overall be a little bit better in dps has to slightly improve their drains.

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*Looks at lodestone*

Hasn't even touched BC or Titan for that matter (as a Warrior). Ah I was really strong at that point as well, which nobody complains about.

I'd just like to chime in and say i'm really comfortable being a WAR Off tank. There's plenty of of content that I have MT'd just fine, as long as I had competent healers.

I see so many WAR's rerolling a PLD cause they just can't perform well, and thats fine. If you want an easy tank to play, go PLD all the way. No one want's to heal a tank who cant play his class properly anyways.

The whole thing about Devs saying that WAR is the stronger tank.. They built the class to their standards, for people who want to get a challenge out of the game, and not just spam endless cooldowns that make you untouchable for x amount of time. I truly believe it is an exceptional job for exceptional players, and any nay sayers just haven't unlocked it's true potential. I learn new things every week on WAR depending on the content and I love it more and more.

Titan is trivial to tank. BC is not impossible for a WAR, and I have can even be viable to fill a DPS slot in almost any content.

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Originally Posted by BamLayce

I truly believe it is an exceptional job for exceptional players, and any nay sayers just haven't unlocked it's true potential.
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Titan is trivial to tank.

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It'd be totally fine if WAR only put a challenge on the WAR player but it's not! Clearing Titan with WAR MT mostly shows that the healers are exceptional players, not the WAR.
Titan may be trivial to Tank but it's not trivial to heal.

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Originally Posted by BamLayce

i'm really comfortable being a WAR Off tank...as long as I had competent healers...

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Another WAR carried by healers thinking they figured out some big secret to playing WAR. It's no secret that the healer makes the WAR.

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Originally Posted by Phreak

Another TANK carried by healers thinking they figured out some big secret to playing TANK. It's no secret that the healer makes the TANK.

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Just to clarify.

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Originally Posted by Phreak

Another WAR carried by healers thinking they figured out some big secret to playing WAR. It's no secret that the healer makes the WAR.

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I really wish people would use their brains and not use this phrase anymore. PLD is "carried" by the healer as well. Thats the healers JOB... Unless I need to "L2P" PLD... Which apparently doesn't require a healer at all?

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Originally Posted by DonkeyPooh

I really wish people would use their brains and not use this phrase anymore. PLD is "carried" by the healer as well. Thats the healers JOB... Unless I need to "L2P" PLD... Which apparently doesn't require a healer at all?

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I don't know why people throw that misconception around, either. Any derp PLD is still gonna get carried long as they can manage the most basic conception of holding hate just like a derp WAR. The only real difference that's going to greatly affect any fight and bring out your healers skill, is if that WAR or PLD doesn't have enough common sense and skill to avoid unneccessary hits and doesn't have a solid concept of using their abilities to maximize returns or minimize damage. Otherwise players are just using PLD's simplier approach as a crutch because they don't have to put as much effort into doing their job.

I mean sure in some situations one job > the other, but not every situation is going to allow every job to perform optimally. It's sort of like saying MNK will always be better than DRG because Greased Lightning's effect > DRG's burst damage in the end, but not all situations allow MNK to keep Greased Lightning's effect up 100% which brings down their damage considerably because they have to rebuild it.

Sure WAR is carried by Healers more than PLD. Why? Because PLD has mitigation, while WAR has +Heal recieved. Both cant live without Healers, but the warrior will notice the quality of the healers more than the PLD.

From the numbers and theorycraft ive read about the tank battle between war and PLD im on the warrior side though. Warriors are still a bit behind PLDs and imho that is bad.

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Originally Posted by DonkeyPooh

I really wish people would use their brains and not use this phrase anymore. PLD is "carried" by the healer as well. Thats the healers JOB... Unless I need to "L2P" PLD... Which apparently doesn't require a healer at all?

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A PLD can pop Hallowed Ground and not require a healer at all for 10 seconds. True story.

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Originally Posted by Matho

From the numbers and theorycraft ive read about the tank battle between war and PLD im on the warrior side though. Warriors are still a bit behind PLDs and imho that is bad.

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Agreed, but imo it's not really as big of a gap as people make it out to be. I think part of it's because many are taking the same straightforward approach to WAR like they do PLD and WAR is not really designed to function like PLD (note: function, not role), but the other part is I don't think people are applying WAR's utility as well as they can/should. As you so eloquently pointed out PLD can reduce incoming damage, but really it has little to no means to support itself beyond that. WAR has essentially three low-mid level cures (Second Wind, Thrill of Battle, and Inner Beast) to recover with, so WARs can at least try to save themselves more than every 4-5 minutes if things get out of hand.

I'm checking forums and see people still go on with this discussion, lol. So cute.

I have been told repeatedly that no WAR can do coil, and been refused couple of times even from my FC mates + whole argument about not helping.

Funny enough, we got to turn 4 in 2 weeks from entering coil with a semi-static and people who keep D/C-ing a lot, with a WAR & a PLD.

Actually, just yesterday, I tanked snake upto 5th stack as a WAR. Even the healer was surprised that we could go through; guess what? We got better :)
Mind you, I'm only wearing full-DL and 1 Hero's fending ring. No AF2 or Allagan pieces.

The fact is, coil was tuned with WAR tanks in mind, which clearly explains the oversight of PLD rotating their CDs.
Denying people to enjoy playing a "game" in a class they love for lame excuses & just to get "gear", is pretty pathetic.

I have to say also, I find it sad that people insist on taking 2 x BRD on ADS; lazy MNKs & other jobs with silence refuses to learn their job is just ironic considering they delude themselves they are "hardcore" yet ignorant on how to maximize the potential of their jobs.
But then again, most BRDs I have been with can't seem to keep a simple job of maintaining a silence cycle...

All in all, this is irrelevant, soon enough WARs are getting a buff. However, the situation will remain the same where people still do FFXI mentality and bring 2 x or 3 x jobs to "have it easy", rather than actually do it properly & challenge themselves.
At least this is how I like to play, and I realize everyone have their own reasons to play.

Just don't make up BS that X Job can't do Y, because it isn't.

I would like to see you complete BC with War/War

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Originally Posted by rexie

stuff about duplicate jobs

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Class stacking is nothing new. When it comes to pushing content if a class performs better/requires less effort/trivializes an encounter mechanic(s) + returns equal or greater gains over another class, it will be 'stacked'.

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Originally Posted by Illya

A PLD can pop Hallowed Ground and not require a healer at all for 10 seconds. True story.

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Um yea I know that, but can the PLD take out any mob it requires Hallowed Ground on in 10 secs? No. TBH EVERY class/job is carried by a healer. Its the whole point of the role :P. You can't really compare a PLD to a WAR in nothing but math. Which plays an important role its not a extremely large portion of the equation that determines success or not. You would have to compare one PLDs party to a WARs party to really get down to the overall differences in the "PLD vs WAR"... war lol. Which I fail to understand to begin with. I am starting to think people just want WAR to be as easy as PLD. Does anyone know if this arguement has tainted the JP forums as well?

WAR depends much more in the healer than a PLD, and this can be seen by the core of the design of Warriors. PLD's eHP comes from their direct damage mitigation, no strings attached, they just chop a chunk of the damage, meaning that the Healer will have less spiky HP to work with when healing. While WARs recieve most of the damage unmitigated, and their eHP comes from their extra HP and healing bonus, however this eHP only reaches its potential with the healing bonus. What does thi mean? It requires the Healer's full atention to maximize a WAR's eHP, because if you don't make use of the healing bonus, the Warrior essentially only haves around 2k HP extra than a PLD and call it their "equalizer" in terms of comparing mitigation. The extra HP means nothing if the Healer isn't keeping up, while the PLD's mitigation works independently from the Healer.


In other words, PLD's mitigation is independent, WAR's mitigation includes the healer in the formula for the mitigation, automatically making them more dependant on them.

When did anyone say war CAN'T do coil? seriously, please give me the link......... this is getting boring, ppl's repeating from page ONE that the problem is pld being able to do coil BETTER than war (need more caps?). Another thing, ppl say wars are carryed by the whm simply because there's nothing a war can do to make whm's job easyer and if anyone here actually played war they'd see it well before coil xD But obviously i'm a bad war and you guys rock so much that you can defeat math, game rules and any kind of logic..

If healers are carrying tanks through coil.. arent tanks carrying healers.. and dps carrying everyone and EVERYONE CARRIES EVERYONE.. sheesh, its a party, you cant beat any meaningful content without all 3.

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Originally Posted by Phreak

Another WAR carried by healers thinking they figured out some big secret to playing WAR. It's no secret that the healer makes the WAR.

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When you play with people who know how to play their respective class and role, there is no carrying.

Titan for example.What it really comes down to is mitigating those table flips, in which WAR has reliable skills to help out the healer.
#1 Timing Inner Beast with Table flip can mitigate up to 75% of the damage on a crit. Having the WAR topped off is all the healer needs to do which is not carry, its doing their job.
#2 Knowing the fight, and the static rotation Titan uses
#3 Prepping yourself with one of your not-so-mitigating cooldowns like featherfoot/awareness/Convalescence before each table flip.

People aim to put warrior down so much, and its great! Once they inevitably get buffed due to all the whining, anyone who toughed through it and learned to really play it well will have that much more of an edge!

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Originally Posted by BamLayce

#1 Timing Inner Beast with Table flip can mitigate up to 75% of the damage on a crit. Having the WAR topped off is all the healer needs to do which is not carry, its doing their job.

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Unless you're only getting hit for 3200 with Mountain Buster (that's what I get hit for on my *PLD*; WAR takes closer to 4-4.5k), Inner Beast isn't going to mitigate 75% of the damage on a crit. On top of that, this is counting a Berserked IB, which you're going to have once every 3 Mountain Busters. You can normally expect to get 25-30% of the MB with an Inner Beast. Honestly, you're generally better off using it after Rock Buster rather than Mountain Buster so that you're topped off for MB.

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#2 Knowing the fight, and the static rotation Titan uses

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Doesn't actually help you survive the big hits all that much. Tanks barely need to know the rotation at all because they barely have to dodge anything. The only thing you have to worry about is dodging the circle bombs.

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#3 Prepping yourself with one of your not-so-mitigating cooldowns like featherfoot/awareness/Convalescence before each table flip.

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None of which are going to do anything reliable for Mountain Buster. Throwing up Flash right before Mountain Buster is going to do just as much as Featherfoot, Conv is only really going to help recover from MB (which means that it won't help you survive it unless you've got a SCH shielding you up with Adloq before it), and Awareness only helps with the autoattacks since MB itself can't crit.

The strongest of the WAR CDs is weaker than the weakest of the PLD CDs. On top of that, WAR *still* requires more external healing, just on a passive basis. Anyone that claims that their healers don't have to work harder to keep a WAR alive than they do to keep a PLD alive is simply lying. It only gets worse when you get to coil because the damage ramps up heavily when you get there, meaning that the WAR self heals mean less and PLD mitigation means more, especially those CDs.

Any WAR that has progressed through coil didn't do it through their own skill; they got there because they've had healers that were absolutely friggin' amazing. No amount of WAR skill can close the gap when you're getting hit as hard as Caduceus with 5 stacks or dealing with the ADS with Slashing resist. At that point, you're simply shifting more work onto the healers by not running as a PLD and, in coil, it ends up being a *lot* more work.

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People aim to put warrior down so much, and its great! Once they inevitably get buffed due to all the whining, anyone who toughed through it and learned to really play it well will have that much more of an edge!

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The people that put WAR down so much are simply being realistic about its capabilities rather than living in a fantasy land where they can always crit and have buffs active and where 2.4k is 75% of 4k. There comes a point where no amount of player skill can make up the difference, and the sad truth of the matter is that you hit that point as early as Titan. I love playing WAR, but I'm realistic about what it can do and what it *can't* do is outperform or even equal PLD on anything that isn't trivial content.

I can't really argue with your logic, but I only used Titan as an example because by now, anyone who's interested in learning more about their class has done this primal encounter and can relate to it better than BC.

I'll admit, healing/playing a WAR is much harder in any case, and im not arguing that its better than PLD. A WAR played optimally will still not be on par with a PLD's mitigation, but WARs have pros to PLD's cons, and vice versa like snap threat generation & multiple mob tanking. I'm not sure if you saw my earlier point that lead to this but I have been considering WAR the Off Tank of BC. Even in calling it an offtank, the only Off Tanking it does is in T4 since it cant really stand up to 2 dreads for more than a couple of seconds. I do up to Turn 5 every week in less than 1h30min as war and although it was harder on the healers a month ago, it has made them better that they really feel confident having a WAR OT to take down Twintania.

Problem is, Tower will be in the DF. Meaning you could potentially get 6 WARs with you. They've got to be able to complete the same content as PLD in a PuG.

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Originally Posted by Illya

I mean, I'll take a pointless carry through Titan HM with me as a mediocre DPS just to pass the instance and get my Relic weapon but if this is what Yoshi thinks WAR is for, never MT only carry then fine I'll just roll a SMN or something and never tank again in this game. I don't want to be PLD to tank.

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I have beaten Titan as WAR tank and so has another FC buddy. Very possible. You need better gear, first of all. Yes, that one AF1 body piece makes a huge difference so replace it with HDL, AF2 or HVY Allaghan. Then, make sure you are rotating your buffs right. Dont just put it all on your healers when MB comes. Find the sweet spot to avoid the Bomb blast after heart phase. Good vids on youtube. Small things ad up to huge differences when you working with MMO battle mechanics. Its all numbers. You guys really need to fullly explore your jobs before jumping on forums and whining/complaining.

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Originally Posted by LavellaNyteshade

I have beaten Titan as WAR tank and so has another FC buddy. Very possible. You need better gear, first of all. Yes, that one AF1 body piece makes a huge difference so replace it with HDL, AF2 or HVY Allaghan. Then, make sure you are rotating your buffs right. Dont just put it all on your healers when MB comes. Find the sweet spot to avoid the Bomb blast after heart phase. Good vids on youtube. Small things ad up to huge differences when you working with MMO battle mechanics. Its all numbers. You guys really need to fullly explore your jobs before jumping on forums and whining/complaining.

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I beat Titan for the first time last night maintanking it as war, seems all you need really is good healers that can top you off for MB and that's it.

*yawns*

Some people just don't get it; there is no OT or MT when it comes to WAR or PLD, both are capable tanks designed to tank anything and ALL game content is designed with that parameter; ANY exception is an oversight from the developers. They did admit that on coil turn 1, and they are fixing it. PLD is better with certain "functions", and WAR is better with other "functions", however BOTH have the exact SAME role i.e. tank. Can we move on?
It is a ridiculous argument just like arguing who is better WHM or SCH, or MNK & DRG, or BLM & SMN.

If any class is an OT, then that would be DRG/LNC... Nobody really bothers paying attention to clues provided by SE.

@ExarKun007
It has been mentioned by the developers like MILLION times already since pre-alpha, that:

a) Mixing jobs is the best optimal approach for three primary reasons:
1) you get different abilities from all classes which contribute to overall battle potential of the party.
2) get full PT buff, which is tremendously useful.
3) fastest LB bar filling up (it has been mentioned several times that many encounters are designed where LB can make it or break it)
b) They are avoid situation where one job is favored to the other and they'll work to ensure that happens (prime example of enforcing such policy is the controversial removal of elemental weakness cycle)

In the end, let's all get along and be a happy family! Really :) This is a game and I know I sound like barney now (eww!).. but some people take games too seriously.

Oh btw, did you guys watch video of DRG main tanking titan? ^_^

Case rested.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

Unless you're only getting hit for 3200 with Mountain Buster (that's what I get hit for on my *PLD*; WAR takes closer to 4-4.5k), Inner Beast isn't going to mitigate 75% of the damage on a crit. On top of that, this is counting a Berserked IB, which you're going to have once every 3 Mountain Busters. You can normally expect to get 25-30% of the MB with an Inner Beast. Honestly, you're generally better off using it after Rock Buster rather than Mountain Buster so that you're topped off for MB.

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While War still has a long way to go being equal to Paladin in Coil, on Titan it's pretty good.
With a mix of DL/AK gear and an i70 Axe you'll be sitting at ~5700HP with Defiance and be able to self heal with Inner Beast for ~1300HP on a normal hit (400 STR)
Pre-Heart you can use Storm's Eye/Butcher's Block get a huge lead on Enmity
After Heart you can cycle Storm's Eye/Storm's PathX2. It's not a huge amount of health (~125 HP per Storm's Path) but it's something. Also when used with Unchained and Bloodbath you will have 30 seconds of self heals worth about 2600HP (20 seconds of Unchained). Double Inner Beast with Infuriate. Thrill of Battle + Stoneskin. Normal Inner Beast and Berserk, Second Wind, Inner Release. That should get you through the last of it.

On some fights, a viable option (Cadaceus) is to have two healers in Cleric Stance. With a Warrior spec'd out in Damage gear + Damage from the mages + 65% X 2 Heals (125% Healing) you can get the same damage as a PLD, 2DD and a healer, but with 125% more heals available for the Warrior plus it's own self heals.

Edited: The party with two healers in Cleric's Stance would also need a DD. I don't mean 2XHealer + WAR ='s PLD, Healer, 2xDD.

Parsed myself on Warrior for sheets and giggles. 155 DPS in Defiance with 400 STR and Bravura.

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Originally Posted by =Judge_Xero

With a mix of DL/AK gear and an i70 Axe you'll be sitting at ~5700HP with Defiance and be able to self heal with Inner Beast for ~1300HP on a normal hit (400 STR)

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I'm kinda curious how you're packing 400 STR and only 5700 hp unless you allocated full STR and are using DPS jewelry because DL/AK mix that's actually built around *tanking* won't get anywhere *near* 400 STR and will *easily* have in excess of 6k hp in Defiance. I'm at 350 STR with 7.5k hp and I'm wearing 3/5 AF2 with Bravura; my PLD, which is DL/AK mix has 310 STR (WAR only has 8 STR more than PLD) and 5.3k hp. If you're using DPS jewelry and stacking up STR, yeah, it'll make sense that your Inner Beast heals for a higher total percentage of your hp, mainly because that healing is acting upon a smaller number for percentage gains: Inner Beast will heal you for 100% of your total hp if you're packing a whopping 1.5k hp. For people actually dressed like tanks, the ratios will be exactly what I said. If you've got that little hp, you better hope that your healers are absolutely spot on because an unmitigated Rock Buster>Mountain Buster is going to do easily more than what you've got, especially since you're going to have much lower Parry Rating thanks to all of that DPS jewelry so it's actually more likely that you're going to get an unmitigated string.

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Also when used with Unchained and Bloodbath you will have 30 seconds of self heals worth about 2600HP (20 seconds of Unchained).

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Using your own parsed DPS, that's *way* more than you'd actually get. Ignoring the fact that the 155 you parsed is going to be inflated by CD usage already, 20 seconds would put you at 4133 damage dealt (155 / .75 * 20) over that 20 seconds. Throw another 1550 on top of that for the other 10 seconds, and you're getting a whopping ~1421, not 2600. Plus, since it's over 30 seconds rather than immediate, it's next to worthless for surviving Mountain Buster since there's follow up damage and that amounts to about 2-3 auto-attacks or less than a p5 Tumult (which is what makes MB really dangerous: it's a big hit bracketed by more damage).

I'm also surprised that you seem to think that there will only be 4 Mountain Busters in p5. MB happens about once every 30 seconds and p5 starts with it so, unless you can burn through 50% of Titan's hp in less than 2 minutes, you're going to get a lot more than that, which means that you're not going to have .

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The party with two healers in Cleric's Stance would also need a DD. I don't mean 2XHealer + WAR ='s PLD, Healer, 2xDD.

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Your math for that composition makes absolutely no sense. Unless you've somehow magically found a way to cast multiple spells at the same time, your "math" makes no sense whatsoever. Plus, 65 * 2 = 130, not 125.

Furthermore, a healer in Cleric Stance manages less than half of the healing of someone outside of it. Assuming you're talking about stance dancing, healers would be spending only 35% of their time DPSing because otherwise you're not getting 65% from an actual healer, which means that they're getting, at best, 40% damage uptime (accounting for DoTs, which isn't going to be as efficient as an actual DPS). Let's say that healers do 75% of the damage that a DPS does while in Cleric Stance and tanks do 50% of a DPS's: your composition would be getting 130% heals and 210% DPS (40 * .75 + 40 * .75 + 100 + 50); the standard composition would be getting 100% heals and 250% DPS (100 + 100 + 0 + 50). Plus, all of this assumes that the healers are dancing absolutely perfectly. The only reason you're getting more healing is because you're bringing 2 healers; you're not actually getting more DPS at all.

Do you want to try and reevaluate some of that math because, as it stands, nothing of what you said makes the slightest bit of sense with the exception of your Storm's Path recommendation, which is a whopping 250 hp every 22.5 seconds and isn't going to make *any* kind of difference; a WHM will overheal you for more than that with a single cast of Regen.

Yeah, that was with all DPS jewelery and spec'd for STR. The parry rating is pretty well useless as it's adding maybe 3% mitigation on attacks that can be parried.

For the damage to healing with Unchained and Bloodbath, the DPS gear gives you around 2.4 GCD. I did the total potency over the 30 seconds of Bloodbath and factored in the 30% more damage for 20 of those seconds + the heals from Storm's Path. Then I used BLITBALL to find the damage on the total Potency and turned it into 25% heals.

A WHM or SCH in Cleric Stance can do a lot of damage with their DOTS and spells while healing in the uptime of the DOTS. I'm not sure what the actual numbers for a competent DPS are. In most cases I've seen 160-220 DPS for DD's. So each healer would only need 70-80 DPS on top of tossing heals. How does a healer only heal less than half when in Cleric Stance? -20% Heals and swaps INT<->MND. Maybe 40% at the most.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

How does a healer only heal less than half when in Cleric Stance? -20% Heals and swaps INT<->MND. Maybe 40% at the most.

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I checked it on my WHM. Cure hit for 850 without Cleric Stance up and 400 with Cleric Stance up. Don't underestimate the hit that the INT>MND swap provides. My MND is more than double my INT and the 20% drop hits it even harder.

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Originally Posted by Kitru

I checked it on my WHM. Cure hit for 850 without Cleric Stance up and 400 with Cleric Stance up. Don't underestimate the hit that the INT>MND swap provides. My MND is more than double my INT and the 20% drop hits it even harder.

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Wow, so how would you consider just having two Healers not in Cleric Stance. What is a reasonable damage number they could put out while healing at the same time?

For my personal pov, I really pray for SE to give us back Raging Rush, King Justice and DD potential like the good ol' FFXI...

Fell Cleave!

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Wow, so how would you consider just having two Healers not in Cleric Stance. What is a reasonable damage number they could put out while healing at the same time?

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There's almost no downside to cleric stance, the CD is so short (5 seconds = 2 casts) and it's off the skill cool down, you can literally toggle it off and on any time you want to deal quick damage and then off and go straight back into full on healing with no penalty outside of using a GCD.

You can deal damage in cleric stance and heal at the same time without any real penalty.

I think you guys have devolved into a Healers Role Discussion about how to effectively use Cleric Stance.

Similarly, I don't always have Defiance running 24/7. Mind, it's running MOST of the time. Cleric Stance, from what I can tell (My Legacy char has WHM 40ish, which I haven't really played since 2.0) but Cleric Stance is soooo easy to toggle on and off, it's not meant to be a 'always on' or 'always off' ability. It needs to be toggled to maximixe your output.

Those discussion on cleric stance makes me wish we had something similar for WAR that would switch VIT<->STR. Would give us some more utility on fights where we're not needed... (DF Titan HM...)

That would be cool, if War could equip an Axe on off hand and go into 2 hand stance for damage :p

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Originally Posted by Shinkyo

Those discussion on cleric stance makes me wish we had something similar for WAR that would switch VIT<->STR. Would give us some more utility on fights where we're not needed... (DF Titan HM...)

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There's plenty of things you can do to make WAR DPS.
1. Don't use defiance obviously
2. Equip either STR DL Accessories, or ilvl 70 crafted accessories with Strength (Will add up to 45STR)
3. Respec your stat allocation to 30 STR
4. Unorthodox but pretty effective... Unequip your soul stone and become a MRD. You'll have access to skills like Blood for blood, raging strikes, internal release, straight shot, invigorate, etc. The only downside is you cant equip a relic or AF+1.

I simply equip the accessories that give STR if I need to DPS for whatever reason. Warrior is capable of pretty decent damage, even while tanking :)

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Originally Posted by Phreak

There's almost no downside to cleric stance, the CD is so short (5 seconds = 2 casts) and it's off the skill cool down, you can literally toggle it off and on any time you want to deal quick damage and then off and go straight back into full on healing with no penalty outside of using a GCD.

You can deal damage in cleric stance and heal at the same time without any real penalty.

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Well if it's that easy then wouldn't

WAR (STR Spec'd to a degree. ~7k HP)
Healer
Healer
DPS

be just as or more effective than PLD, Healer, DDX2?

Moderately geared I was pulling ~155 DPS as a Warrior. So give each healer ~70-80DPS with DOT's etc and a 200 DPS DD. (495 DPS)

PLD ~80DPS, Healer (0 no time to DD as solo healer) DD X 2 400 DPS (480 DPS)

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

~155 DPS as a Warrior.
PLD ~80DPS,

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Uhhh...no. WAR out-DPSes PLD in most cases, but not by 195%

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Originally Posted by Ehayte

Uhhh...no. WAR out-DPSes PLD in most cases, but not by 195%

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Well, I parse at ~155 DPS. What would a reasonable amount be for PLD? Most I see are around 80 DPS, but are also only stacking Vitality so they have like ~310-330 STR. Of course they could have much more with all endgame gear, but DL + Relic vs DL + Relic I'd say it's pretty close to 80 DPS.

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Originally Posted by Judge_Xero

Well, I parse at ~155 DPS. What would a reasonable amount be for PLD? Most I see are around 80 DPS, but are also only stacking Vitality so they have like ~310-330 STR. Of course they could have much more with all endgame gear, but DL + Relic vs DL + Relic I'd say it's pretty close to 80 DPS.

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I think 120 is a more accurate number, assuming relic and full dl. I can probably get 80 DPS with a GC weapon lol.

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According to LogRep2 I did 71 DPS on Garuda in full DL and Storm Lieutenant's Cutlass. I am going to assume that is the parser you are using since my WAR parses are generally in the 150-170 area when I am permitted to use Inner Beast pretty much whenever it is available.

I also just hit 50 on the Paladin yesterday, so it's likely that I am not keeping a tight damage rotation considering my unfamiliarity with PLD.

But a PLD in our FC regularly parses at about 120 DPS on Titan.