Mmmmm.. dat Berserker <3
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10-22-2013, 04:10 AMAridElf
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10-22-2013, 12:28 PMGorehoundAh, I see. An easy enough fix, just replace with Butcher's Cleave.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ehayte
But now an attempt at Templar. I don't think the Templar on the OP really acknowledges LNC lower max HP and lower armor, so I wanted to give it a swing. I didn't want to encroach too much on Pally or Warrior niches, so I thought, why not an active mitigation tank that focuses on parry.
Continued in next post... -
10-22-2013, 12:29 PMGorehound
Templar
30 LNC/15 GLD
Passive Effects:
Can parry from all sides
Abilities with a positional bonus benefit from frontal attacks instead
Cross Class: GLD/MRD
LV 30
Clairvoyance
Buff
Increases emnity generated
Increases armor and parry by 20%
Successful parries reduce Life Surge CD by 4s
LV 35
Unyielding
20s cd
Extends the duration of Keen Flurry by 30s
LV 40
Riposte
10s cd
Can only be used after Parrying
Deliver an attack with a potency of 100
Reduces damage dealt by 10%
Lasts 20s
Lv 45
Break Free
90s cd
Can be used while stunned
Removes all negative status ailments
Reduce damage recieved by 15% for 8s
LV 50
Valor
Buff
After a successful parry you gain Glory
Each Glory stack gives 2% more max hp, up to 10%
Lasts 30s -
10-23-2013, 03:29 AMMartaDemireuxHonestly I didn't really feel the need to. MRD has about the same HP as GLA, WAR only has a ton of HP due to abilities and its soul. TMP doesn't have needs to be restricted to LNC gear. Look at SMN/SCH/ACN. Their gear at endgame is split into ACN/THM/BLM/SMN for nuking and CNJ/WHM/SCH for healing. ACN can't wear SCH gear and SCH can't wear ACN gear. TMP could easily be placed on heavy gear sets like DL. As for stats lets look at ACN/SCH/SMN again:Quote:
Originally Posted by Gorehound
(naked except for darklight book, no bonus stats used)
ACN: HP:1743 MP:2912 INT:242 MND:166 PIE:200
SMN: HP:1988 MP:2983 INT:262 MND:176 PIE:210
SCH: HP:1988 MP:3346 INT:242 MND:247 PIE:240
What we see here is that not only does equipping a job stone give increased stats all-around but different job stones give different stat increases. The 2 main we see here are SCH's getting 70 more MND and 400 more MP to better suit their role. Reminder: This is before all the role-specific armor as well which boost their values even higher (SCH 264 INT 328 MND : SMN 368 INT 161 MND in AK/WP).
TMP could (and likely would) follow this. They would have job-specific weapons too (like SCH has its own healing books separate from ACN/SMN nuking books) that would have stats focused on its role as well as their own AF2.
As for the abilities I chose, they're appropriate to what we've seen from TMPs in the past. With yours it looks like some don't make all that much sense. For example, an ability to affect another ability should be covered by a trait or instead be replaced by another ability that does the same thing (similar to how ACN gets two pet buffs or ARC can have multiple crit rate +s). Parrying also has its flaws in that currently you're capped at a rate around 24% IIRC (don't quote me on this). But you do have interesting ideas don't get me wrong.
Changes to OP:
TMP
-Changed Lifebreak from a 7 minute damage/enmity spike to a 5 minute attack with a soft cap potency of 450 with increased enmity. Damage and enmity are affected by how many DoTs the TMP has on the target (I wanted them to actually make use of the DoTs).
-Heavy Thrust will now also grant the TMP increased enmity while the buff is maintained.
-Bone Crusher now has increased potency when used in a combo. Counter is no longer guaranteed to prevent abuse.
-Clarified that Astra will increase enmity in all targets and the debuff immunity will only last 25s or until you avoid an immunity.
-Faith will now also increase HP by 10% and had its duration increased to 60s (inspired from Gorehound's Valor). -
10-23-2013, 05:01 AMSegorisI think Faith has either a bit too long of a duration or too short of a recast. When 10% max hp is available 50% of the time, it's almost redundant to make that a cooldown. I think 20% hp for 15s with a 120s recast would be more powerful for surviving burst when played well, or 15% for 15s with a 90s recast. Basically, it's powerful enough to survive easier but only available roughly 10-20% of the time.Quote:
40: Faith: (A) Increases the effect of healing magic on you and raises maximum HP by 10% (60s). Recast: 120s
45: Astra: (A) Makes you immune to the next negative status effect placed on you (25s). Increases enmity on all engaged targets on use. Recast: 60s.
I kind of think the same thing of Astra. I get that it is a pre-emptive negative effect shielding ability, but it's still up almost 50% of the time, but due to it's enmity tie in I think the shorter duration is better here. Maybe even 10s duration with a 45s recast (brings the uptime from ~40% down to ~20%). More well timed play is required for the debuff prevention, but allows for strong AE tanking with the faster usage of increasing enmity
I still really like this thread and its ideas, but the devil is in the details and what not. -
10-23-2013, 08:07 PMAndrien
I'll like to see Time Mage, and Necromancer the most. All the other suggestions are good too.
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10-25-2013, 05:47 AMIzumiRaito
Time Mage definitely would need a Haste.
Version 1:
Off-GCD
20seconds duration.
60seconds cooldown.
Time for the target flows 10% faster. This includes auto attack, charging the cast time, charging gcd time and charging offgcd cooldowns. Also move speed increased by 10%.
Version 2:
On-GCD
5 seconds casting time, or 5 seconds gcd
15 seconds duration
Time for the target flows 10% faster. This includes charging the cast time, charging gcd time and charging offgcd cooldowns.
Maybe also Quick, as a lvl 50 ability
300 seconds cooldown
All targets abilities become ready to cast immediately. Both on-gcd and off gcd. Doesn't work on target's Quick ability. -
10-25-2013, 05:59 AMIzumiRaito
Now about Dark Knight.
Darkness needs to do the aoe damage, and based on hp spent. Op didnt mention any damage.
Also FFT skills:
Dark Sword
On-GCD
80 tp cost
1 second casting time
120 potency
Recover hp equal to damage dealt
Night Sword
On-GCD
60 TP cost
1 seconds cast time
90 potency
Absorb damage dealt as mp. (Damage can be dealt to MP if such feature were to exist.) -
10-25-2013, 02:29 PMCactuar213
To be honest, as much I would like to see a Dark Knight use a great sword, I have a feeling they would probably be a branch of Marauder seeing as their A+ weapon in FF11 was a scythe, and it would probably be easier to copy animations from great axes as well.
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10-26-2013, 01:30 AMKitruTo get them with a great sword or any weapon other than a weapon used by an existing class, they'd have to go with a separate class completely. If that did happen, I'd expect DRK to be a tank class rather than a DPS class (DRK was always a *really* durable class, which is really what the tank classes are being drawn out of since there hasn't really been a "tank" role in any of the FFs pre-MMO). The only way I see DRK going DPS is if it's grown out of GLA using sword and shield.Quote:
Originally Posted by Cactuar213
As to the OP, there are a few issues. In general, I highly doubt that they're going to have jobs change the weapon types used by the split jobs for numerous reasons. Weapon determines base class, which job is simply a template added on top of. Changing sword and board to great sword or great axe to dual hatchets seems like an arbitrary choice, since it's not like there are mechanical differences two slot set ups having their stats splits so that 2/3rds of the stats of the stats are on the main hand and the other 1/3rd is on the OH. On top of that, you'd be asking for every single attack to be given a whole new animation to account for the new set up, which is a lot of development work (casters have only 3 animations with different particle effects so they can manage different weapon loadouts easily because it's not like much changes). In general, it's just really not likely to happen. What's the problem with a Berserker using a great axe or a Dark Knight using a sword and board? They've already gone outside of what the classes have done historically by having WAR use a great axe when historically it was a sword and board, or, at the very least, 2h sword class. It makes more sense to operate within the bounds of what they've already done rather than trying to push the envelope and start requiring arbitrary changes that would require a lot of work to implement.
I'm curious as to why you gave Time Mage Cleric Stance. You've explicitly designed them as a DPS class, and Cleric Stance is the healer "solo" stance. Providing it to a DPS class is, effectively, pointless (and likely borders on being just a bit overpowered, in all likelihood, since it's a 10% increase in damage dealt). Unless the plan would be for them to be a Mind based DPS class that runs in Cleric Stance at all time (with a commensurate decrease in base damage to account for the 10% increase that Cleric Stance provides), I'm not entirely sure it's wise to include it on their additionals list. Keep in mind, whether an ability has affinity with another class is purely arbitrary so the devs can pick and choose however they want. The Demi spells would also be more than a bit OP, especially if they were Mind based, because, as gear progresses, the potency would increase while their damage stats are also increasing, since MP pools grow with Piety and you're basing potency off of max hp. Gravity pushes the envelope on class balance, not for PvE (since it's not like NPCs cleanse), but in PvP because, with a 30 sec Heavy, you're essentially taking a melee out of the fight for that entire duration, especially if it can't be cleansed by a healer. Stop would make more sense as a straight up stun (push it up to 5s duration), mainly because adding a new status effect that is unique to a single job is asking for a lot while there's no real reason that it couldn't just be a stun, given than BLM and THM don't have access to one in the first place.
I always felt that Time Mage would make a lot of sense as the THM healing class, but I'll echo what someone said earlier and say that the resource mechanic of the THM just doesn't play well with a healer. It's *possible* that they could create a healer out of it, but it would require completely repurposing Umbral Ice and Astral Fire (likely having each apply a different secondary buff to the given abilities) and playing a very delicate game with making the job useful at 30-35 (it would likely have to be built upon the assumption that you're bringing Cure to the party or, *possibly*, causing Blizzard and Fire to deal *substantially* less damage but heal nearby targets).
The problem I see with Geomancer is that it becomes *way* too reliant upon the given locale, which is largely outside of the control of the player, and some of those locales would be *way* more useful than others (Poison is the biggest but Slow and Det Down are also better than most). A more likely way for it to be introduced would be for Geomancer to gain 4-5 different abilities that are each tied to a specific locale as part of their job quests, similar to Mog's Dance skills from FFVI (which was a fusion of Dance and Geomancy, much more mechanically identical to Geomancy though). Desert, Forest, Tundra, Plains and Coast are the 5 most likely given the games' zones (though I could also see "City" for some of the Garlean forts and "Wasteland" for the areas destroyed by the Cataclysm), though you'd need to come up with given effects for each. I would expect to see some be straight up attacks (Plains or Forest as a Wind/Poison attack and Coast as a Water/Lightning attack) with some others being debuff/buff patches (Tundra as a slow patch that deals Ice damage; Forest as a ground patch that heals allies or increases resource regeneration). Having all of their effects vary based upon something outside of player control just seems less likely than simply allowing the Geomancer to learn about the locales and then bring them along with them.
I always tend to think of Geomancers in the terms that they were implemented in FFT, which meant that they used Axes, so I envisioned them as being a caster DPS/support job based off of the Marauder: they'd do most of their attacks as just wailing on someone with an axe but use Geomancy to bolster themselves and their team while impeding their foes.
For Dark Knight, there are a lot of problems. As a melee class, mobility is paramount and forcing a target to stand still gets in the way of that so anything with a cast would need to be fixed to be instant. It would also mean that everything they get from THM is largely pointless since all of the additionals are built around casting. Dread Spikes would, in all likelihood, not be done as a 10% reflect mainly because it would be crazy strong (Vengeance has a set potency per attack taken for a reason: imagine using that right before Mountain Buster). Blood Weapon and Dread Spikes are really just copycat abilities for what MRD already has (Bloodbath and Vengeance) and that you're providing as additionals so you're not really coming up with anything new or unique for them but rather doubling up on the same abilities. On top of all of this, hp-as-resource-mechanic is massively detrimental in solo situations and funky in group situations since it means that the cost is negligible for the user because they're just shifting the cost to their healer. To justify it, DRK would need to deal more damage than any other DPS because they're costing their group more, unless you plan on making the hp cost so small that it's effectively nonexistent, at which point you have to ask yourself why it's there in the first place. Hp-as-resource works in the single player FFs because you're playing the entire group as a single entity and have the *choice* to use those abilities and heal them back up. In an MMO, you're getting to make a choice for *someone else* to have to clean up, which is pretty bad design. Furthermore, with Souleater, you're encouraging the player to be at low HP in order to deal more damage with one of their attacks, which never really turns out well (City of Heroes tried it with Blasters and they quickly had to do away with that because it ended up causing an inordinate amount of deaths) and doesn't really fit with everything else they've got, which is about restoring the hp that they keep sacrificing. If you really want to include something like that, don't make it deal more damage the lower your hp is; just require yourself to be below a certain threshold, like 50%, to use the attack (which works out well with the 5m CD; wait to drop that low and then unleash hell with a 500 potency AoE). Also, on a random note, what's the point of Flash into Darkness with an hp instead of mp cost when it doesn't do damage so no DPS would ever want to use it in the first place?
Most of this is reason why I feel that DRK would be best implemented as a tank class based off of a new class that uses a 2h-sword, which has always been one of the signature weapons of the Dark Knight. You can get the dark themed abilities into the class without having to load so much of it onto the job itself, hp-as-resource is a viable option since the healer is *already* healing the tank, especially if you opt to use the hp in order to fuel largely *defensive* benefits, so that you're sacrificing hp in order to decrease healing load, which ends up benefiting healers rather than screwing them over, and it requires pretty much the same development effort as what you're already suggesting. Of course, I wouldn't make it require/be based off of any casting classes because, as the devs learned with BRD, unless the additionals you're getting are actually *useful*, it's kind of pointless to provide them; I'd just have it use GLA and either MRD or LNC (GLA is pretty much required thanks to Provoke; LNC and MRD work with their decent tank additionals).
Berserker itself looks fine, beyond the weapon issues I mentioned at the start. Hone Senses once again has the problem of just being a copycat version of Internal Release, which they're *already* getting through PGL. As a +crit ability, it might be better to just have it be something like a 50% increased crit chance on your special attacks with a limited number of charges. I'd also kind of prefer to see a DPS stance like Defiance provided to it, mainly because Wrath as a resource always felt kind of kewl and Berserker would work well with that. Since Berserkers have always been really fast attackers, you could easily make the stance provide an increase to attack speed with each stack and then have it be consumed to do the various special attacks: one AoE, one utility, and one big ST. -
10-26-2013, 05:51 AMNahara
A couple quick points:
1) Cleric Stance is for healers only. It's there to give healers a boost to their damage output, even while decked out in healing gear, so they can do solo content efficiently. There's no reason to give it to Time Mage.
2) How are you expected to recover MP in a long fight with your iteration of Geomancer? Every damage dealer needs to be able to reliably deal damage over an extended period of time. THM/BLM have Umbral Ice and ACN/SMN have Aetherflow, but your iteration of Geomancer doesn't contain any reliable source of MP recovery. Shroud of Saints is nice, but it will not cut it, especially since Geomancy and Nature's Embrace are an even bigger drain on your MP pool, in addition to your Stone and Aero spells.
3) Gladiator focuses on one-handed swords and shield. Any job that comes from it would also require swords and shields, so I don't think you can say DRKs can use two-handed swords and still branch out from Gladiators. -
10-26-2013, 05:58 AMMartaDemireux
@IzumiRaito - Thanks for the input but as said several times in the thread already, Haste was left off of TIM because Yoshi has clearly stated that he hates the spell and doesn't want it. This being the case I based my idea around it. Yoshi might change his stance on it eventually and maybe implement content that would need it when level caps get unlocked later on. Unlike specific job mechanics like Greased Lightning, Haste would be very hard to balance. Imagine a MNK with GL and Haste, yikes.
@everyone On DRK - It was intended for Darkness to deal damage. In noting the change for Flash->Darkness and further down the change for Enmity->Potency I forgot to include that it would actually deal damage. I'll update the post to clarify this :)
@Kitro Thanks for the thought out response! Allow me to respond to you properly and will continue through edits:
Weapon types: I agree it would be a good chunk of work for animations but they'll be doing that eventually anyway. They wouldn't need to make as many as you may be thinking, though. Currently if you equip a different class's attacking skill, you'll do a "base animation" with the skill's visual effects. This is the physical equivalent of the casting animation.
For the worry on dual-hatchets, the stats could easily be applied to just one and the other one just be there for animation purposes (exactly like PGL/MNK, they have one weapon but its animated/displayed for both hands). As 2-handed and 1-handed swords/axes are still just that, swords and axes, they could be used by their classes but not by the opposing jobs. They already have the programming done for such a thing. For example: If you're trying to equip the SCH job while you're on SMN using a SMN/ACN only book it will ask you to first change to ACN and then equip a weapon a SCH can use. So while the display is the same for each job (books) the coding is different and can be applied directly to PLD/DRK getting different weapons. This means that even though a job is an extension of a class, the coding actually sees the job as its own entity. You bypass this error by utilizing gearsets however which is great.
On DRK: I definitely see your point on the HP cost. I like your idea for a % based activation instead of more damage as your health lowers. I'm going to tweak it a bit to activate at 75% health but perform a guaranteed critical at 50%. For your casting concerns with Drain, Swiftcast from THM negates any argument. I set Drain recast to 60s to coincide with Swiftcast's recast time for this purpose. In fights where you don't need to move a whole lot you can set a MRD ability instead but if you need to use Drain and you need to move, that's what the ability is there for. As you can change your abilities at any time in an instance while you are not engaged, it's easy to run MRD skills for clearing dungeons but then swap in Swiftcast for a dodgy boss.
On your note for Blood Weapon and Dread Spikes: these drain health from the enemy. MRD abilities heal you based on the damage, DRK would heal you based on the damage while deducting that from the enemy's health. So they're similar but not a copy and better fill the DPS role. I don't really see an issue with Dread Spikes though. Titan only hits for say 2.5k or so for instance. That would make him take 250 damage and the DRK be healed for 250 damage. With stomps he does about 4x 700 damage so he would only again take about 280 damage and the DRK would be healed the same. I do think the level priority needs switching though as with Titan as an example it feels like more of a level 35 ability. Doesn't do a whole lot of damage or heal a whole lot. I don't envision them having WAR's HP (more like a DRG's) so any attack that would make this too strong would likely kill them anyway.
I'm also guessing you didn't play FFXI? DRK there had abilities that would drain their health to which they would then just Drain it back immediately after or the healer would see a DRK in their party and keep an eye out for when they used their abilities to know they need to pop a Regen on them. Worked fine there and the DRK would only die if the healer hadn't played with a DRK or the DRK got overzealous.
On GEO: Similar to how BLM works to THM, GEO will primarily be using CNJ nukes. I think you skipped reading "Ignore Terrain" ability that would base the next Geomancy spell element on your own elemental resistances. There are potions in game that you can drink to raise a specific elemental resistance. These are easily crafted and currently extremely cheap. A tier 1 of these is enough to get my lowest element to be my highest as a follower of Thaliak (Lightning 267 : Earth 283). If a boss really needed a certain debuff like Slow you could use Nature's Wrath, drink an Earth Ward Potion and cast the spell once every 5 or 4.5 minutes (depending on HQ potion). Otherwise you get whatever your highest element is which is based on your Guardian, my Nature's Wrath would give Slow by default in this case.
This would make choosing your Guardian actually have meaning in-game. They could create a way to follow a different Guardian in-game via a quest which could include a pilgrimage. It could be repeatable once a week or maybe month Earth time to prevent abuse.
On TIM: I forgot to remove Cleric Stance from the OP. Originally it was there to boost their damage because I was limiting the stacks of AF/UI they could accrue. I changed the idea however and forgot to remove that from their abilities. They would definitely be too strong with it. Heavy however I don't think will be an issue. We still don't know how PvP will play out now as it has changed a lot since beta. There are going to be PvP only skills too and they could easily lock out certain skills from PvP like Heavy or at least limit its duration. There are several skills that would be OP in PvP currently in game anyway like Shadowbind (10sec Bind, 12 second recast) and Sleep/Repose.
My reasoning behind Stop being its own version of Silence/Stun was for future progression. If we have another classes bringing one of those in again, it's going to get messy or the skills will go unused. As an example: PLD stunning Ifrit can get wonky if anyone else stuns something. This would be a way for TIM to get a Stop in if they see a PLD's Stun got resisted due to the DRG Leg Sweeping either on purpose or accidentally.
Demi spells: I intended their damage is purely dependent on the MP cost. If you have 3k MP and use Demi, you will have 300 potency. The stat section in the damage formula will remain empty. This way, you could gear for Piety to not only get more Fire casts with slightly lower damage but also give your Demi spells more of a boost to offset this. As no class currently gears for Piety really I wanted to incorporate one that does. In retrospect however I want to reduce Demi I to 30s recast.
On BRS: I intended for them to have the 2 forms of critical boosting but Hone Senses was meant to give a 40% boost to account for the recast time. Woops! I do however like the charge idea. I'm going to try and tweak it to be a mix of Defiance/Wrath, Greased Lightning and Aetherflow. I don't want it to end up being too much like WAR with the Wrath being entirely consumed but don't want it to end up being too much like Greased Lightning with the building of stacks and needing to maintain it. Thanks for the inspiration!
Edit@Nahara (posted while typing this)
1) see above note "On TIM:"
2) You're right. For some reason I had it in my head SoS had a higher potency. Must have confused it with its recast. Instead of spreading out your MP to others I'll change Nature's Embrace to replenish your own MP, possibly others as well at a lower amount. I'll think on how to implement it. Thanks!
3) As said several times in the thread Gladiator is lit. "Sword Specialist" in the JP client, not "sword and shield specialist" or "Shield Specialist" so there is absolutely no reason why it couldn't use multiple forms of swords (which it already technically does, it uses daggers as well) and allow one job to focus on the 1-handed and another to focus on the 2-handed. -
10-26-2013, 07:39 AMKitruI have to wonder why you think "they'll be doing it eventually". It a lot of work and, unless they decide to specifically allow for multiple weapon loadouts for each class, it's work that they wouldn't *have* to do, and it's exactly as much work as I think it would be. MAR has 10 different attacks with unique animations that would need to be remade to work with your 2 hatchet idea. The only animation that actually *had* an animation that *wouldn't* need to be remade is Mercy Stroke. Considering that you have about 10 abilities per class that actually require animations (most CDs have a minor particle effect at best), you're really asking for an entirely new class's worth of animations to be remade. On top of that, you're asking for new gear to be statted out along with entirely new models for each which is more work on top of that. For a tiny bit more work (i.e. come up with new ability names), they could some up with an entirely new class, which would be a *much* bigger payoff than simply allowing a single job to use some different animations.Quote:
Originally Posted by MartaDemireux
The issue with this is that 2h axes are not the same models as would be used by your dual-hatchets idea. Unless the items were coded to be size variable based upon what class is using them (of which there *isn't* any precedent), you'd end up seeing BZK packing 2 full sized axes rather than 2 hatchets.Quote:
For the worry on dual-hatchets, the stats could easily be applied to just one and the other one just be there for animation purposes (exactly like PGL/MNK, they have one weapon but its animated/displayed for both hands).
Also, books are books as far as the game is concerned. The only difference between them is that some can only be equipped by SCH while others can only be equipped by SMN. You're not talking about creating separate weapon categories, which is what you're asking for. There is precedent for jobs based off of the same class using the same weapon category but there is nothing remotely close to classes using different categories. Furthermore, it's important to remember that weapon determines what you base class is.
No, it doesn't. You're effectively requiring DRK to use Swiftcast any time it wants to use Drain. The same would apply to Thunder (which, once again, would be useless; it's a class that is going to stack STR so that cast will be completely and utterly worthless). Abilities should be useful without forcing them to rely upon a different ability. It would be like requiring Inner Beast, Steel Cyclone, and Unchained to only be used after Infuriate rather than at 5 stacks of Wrath. THM is completely and utterly worthless for DRK. None of the additionals would actually accomplish anything except for fulfill your concept that DRK should have access to THM.Quote:
For your casting concerns with Drain, Swiftcast from THM negates any argument.
That's exactly what Bloodbath already does and all you're doing with Dread Spikes is giving Vengeance a functional 10% damage reduction. You're not appreciably differentiating them from other classes. Even more so, you're not really changing GLA to any appreciable extent with your changes. They'll still just be spamming Halone. All you're doing is giving them a couple additional tank abilities (Blood Weapon and Dread Spikes) and a few marginally useful attacks on long CDs (60, 120, 180). None of those abilities are even designed to have synergy with the existing GLA abilities so all that your DRK would be is a GLA that does some DRK attacks every couple of minutes (since I doubt Drain is going to be something used on CD).Quote:
On your note for Blood Weapon and Dread Spikes: these drain health from the enemy. MRD abilities heal you based on the damage, DRK would heal you based on the damage while deducting that from the enemy's health. So they're similar but not a copy and better fill the DPS role.
I don't think anyone would claim that FFXI was anything remotely close to a good example of balanced game design. Using it as an example of "well it worked *there*" doesn't really carry much weight.Quote:
I'm also guessing you didn't play FFXI? DRK there had abilities that would drain their health to which they would then just Drain it back immediately after or the healer would see a DRK in their party and keep an eye out for when they used their abilities to know they need to pop a Regen on them. Worked fine there and the DRK would only die if the healer hadn't played with a DRK or the DRK got overzealous.
CNJ doesn't actually have "nukes". By the time you're 30, you'd have Stone, Aero, and Stone II, which really means that your rotation would be "Aero>Stone II spam". At 46, you'd get Aero II which just swaps out one of your Stone IIs every 12 seconds. The only "real" attack that WHM actually gets is Holy, and that's off of the job, not the class. All you'd be doing is adding a toggle that they activate at the start of the fight. For any DPS job to be based off of CNJ, you *really* have to do a lot of work to add to the CNJ attack rotation because, without it, there's not going to be much going on there.Quote:
On GEO: Similar to how BLM works to THM, GEO will primarily be using CNJ nukes.
You have to think less GLA>PLD (minor benefits to base class) and more ACN>SCH (a whole set of abilities that form the basis of your job/role). Right now, you're more on the GLA>PLD side of things. This is why I think that GEO would have 4 different abilities that are each tied to a different terrain that can be used independently of one another. If you just go with a toggle and some support CDs, you're not going to create anything that resembles what a DPS rotation/priority should actually look like.
Not really. Once again, it's just allowing you to ignore that one aspect once every 3 minutes. For everything else, you're at the mercy of a part of the game outside of your control.Quote:
I think you skipped reading "Ignore Terrain" ability that would base the next Geomancy spell element on your own elemental resistances.
And the devs have explicitly said that they don't want any classes to rely explicitly on consumables for their abilities. Saying "well, a consumable lets you kinda get around this major issue once every 3 minutes" is bad design on multiple levels.Quote:
There are potions in game that you can drink to raise a specific elemental resistance. These are easily crafted and currently extremely cheap.
Which I'm pretty sure they *don't* want to do. It would be like making your *birthday* have game impact or race more than minute differences.Quote:
This would make choosing your Guardian actually have meaning in-game.
I'm assuming you mean "Gravity" here instead of Heavy, since Heavy is the status effect. If you don't think it'll be an issue, what's the point of saying that it can't be cleansed? NPCs already *don't* cleanse debuffs so the only possible reason for it to be on there would be for PvP.Quote:
Heavy however I don't think will be an issue. We still don't know how PvP will play out now as it has changed a lot since beta. There are going to be PvP only skills too and they could easily lock out certain skills from PvP like Heavy or at least limit its duration.
Both of those break as soon as the target is attacked so it's not the same as "lolmelee for 30 seconds because I can kite you not problem".Quote:
There are several skills that would be OP in PvP currently in game anyway like Shadowbind (10sec Bind, 12 second recast) and Sleep/Repose.
The entire point of the DR on Silence/Stun is that you have to actually sync them properly. The only reason to make this a "unique" status effect that operates off of a different DR is because you just don't like that aspect of the game. Given how specific the devs have designed content around specific stun/interrupt cycles, I'm pretty sure that they *don't* want to arbitrarily simplify it, especially if said mechanic is unique to a single job.Quote:
As an example: PLD stunning Ifrit can get wonky if anyone else stuns something. This would be a way for TIM to get a Stop in if they see a PLD's Stun got resisted due to the DRG Leg Sweeping either on purpose or accidentally.
I got that. It also means that the ability would be completely broken. Use it at low levels, and it's worthless. Use it at high levels with high level gear, and it's suddenly monumentally powerful. Potency is a static value across all levels for a reason: if you don't turn it into a static value, it starts scaling exponentially and getting *way* too powerful the higher up you get. Just look at Flare: it consumes 100% of your MP for a 260 potency attack. Your suggestion would give TIM a 300+ potency hit for what is, for all intents and purposes, the cost of a Blizzard. The cost is arbitrary and the potency scales too well. It's not a good mechanic in any way.Quote:
Demi spells: I intended their damage is purely dependent on the MP cost.
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10-26-2013, 09:48 AMNoriega
Eh...Geomancer was never really that much a high damage magic user (except for a few situational instances where terrain did good damage to a certain enemy), And iirc they were a magic physical hybrid in many games.
So it being a THM/CNJ mix doesnt make sense. Well, a high THM/CNJ anyway. It should be part monk (since traditionally monks were indeed physical but had a white magic accent in their skill set and in a few games used a mana based skills). As for the second class, it would be ARC or THM. Its not really a high burst dealer, which fits with ARC, but was aoe centric, which fits with THM.
I cant see why CNJ would make sense, but the elemental thing was kinda forced in this particular game and thats where the relationship stops.
:shrugs: -
10-26-2013, 09:56 AMMartaDemireux
@Kitru Forgive me for not going much into a reply but you have a very hostile tone and I'm unsure why so I'll just say:
Bloodbath up: Damage: 500. HP healed: 125.
Blood Weapon up: Damage: 550. HP healed: 50.
They're not the same thing. Blood Weapon says "drains" for a reason.
To have Swiftcast being important for DRK is no different than Protect being important for SCH.
I misspoke with Demi and potency. I meant if you have 3.5k MP you'll do 350 damage.
Eventually animations for many weapon types will be in the game. 1.0's data on launch had a plethora of class names data mined which could have already been animated or in the process (it's been 3 years). They may have been waiting to release them with an expansion but due to poor reception early on postponed it. They may have salvaged a lot that we don't know about. Just look how tight lipped they were with ACN, heck even with 2.0 as a whole.
If you equip MRD/GLA attacks on ARC you'll see that the animations are ARC attack animations. Same is true for other classes and other skills. For many of the skills they could just use the same principal, at least for starters. Another thing to note is many skills use different combinations of the same animations. As GLA use Fracture and then Haymaker. You'll see that part of Haymaker is Fracture's animation. Aside from maybe 2-3 unique animations for GLA skills, they could make a handful of other animations and string them together differently for the rest. Each skill in XIV isn't an entirely new animation made from scratch, most are just a string of pre-made animations. This is a time saving technique that I believe they've even mentioned briefly in an interview.
@Noriega Actually that's exactly what it was in FFIII and FFV. In III most of their attacks had 120 power. Black Mage's Firaga as a comparison was 150 power. Both games their spells counted as magic damage. Later on in FFT they had weaker damage but magic was still its primary stat. FFTA had yet another different version but still gained the most from magic attack. -
10-26-2013, 09:16 PMYagrush
Berserker is too similar to Warrior, as far as flavor goes. If you had the chance to play the Job quest storyline, you would notice how the Job Master would remark the Warriros about "Mastering their inner beast" and "animalistic ferociousness", Berserker kind of does the same thing.
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10-27-2013, 01:22 AMGorehound
Since I enjoy making these, I wanted to make a true spellblade Dark Knight.
Dark Knight
30GLD/15THM
Passive
Can wield Greatswords
Cross Class
ACN/THM
LV30
Shadowmastery
Buff
Increases your INT by 33% of your STR
Critical strikes grant a stack of Blight
Blight: Reduce the cast time and GCD of all spells by 25%
Casting a spell expends 4 Blight
Lasts 15s
LV35
Bloodsword
CD 30s
Restores 3% of your total health and mana whenever you deal dmg with an ability
Each time you are restored health, you gain a stack of Blood Frenzy
Blood Frenzy grants 2% crit
Lasts 15s
LV 40:
Scourge
Single Target
60 MP
Combo Action: Riot Blade
Delivers unaspected magic dmg with a potency of 250
Target takes 10% more magic dmg
Duration: 15s
LV 45
Souleater
60s CD
Abilities costs 6% of your health and deal 20% more dmg
Lasts 15s
LV 50
Doom Blade
60 TP
30s CD
Combo: Savage Blade
Delivers an attack with a potency of 300
Always crits on targets with Scourge -
10-28-2013, 07:28 AMKitruThe more I think about it, the more I think that Berserker would work best as the PGL tank job, if it ever gets one. The only Berserker version that got to use axes was the initial implementation in FFV and one of the better combos to use with that was actually Barehand from the Monk so it wasn't even a straight up "only use axes" implementation either. All of the other implementations had Berserker using fist weapons or no weapons (Umaro in VI, Berserker Dress Sphere in X-2, Berserker Seeq in FFT:A2) and being very tanky, with a heavy emphasis on having lots of hp and high evasion, which would fit with a PGL style tank.Quote:
Originally Posted by Yagrush
The only real changes you'd have to make would be to have Greased Lightning provide a +eva buff instead of the +dam buff and get rid of the positional requirements while adding high enmity to some of the others. It's already got a lot of thematically appropriate tank CDs so having it borrow from GLA and MRD would give it a really good total loadout. To work with existing PGL gear (since I don't see Berserker packing plate armor), you could have the tank stance increase defense/DR (to make up for the lower defense from using DoW armor) and provide an absorb shield based on either max hp or damage dealt whenever you score a critical hit in additional to the increased enmity/reduced damage (though it might not need all that much reduced damage since MNK expects to have 22.5% +dam from 3 stack Greased Lightning; the replacing of the +dam component actually ends up reducing damage by 19% so it could actually work as a tank stance that *doesn't* reduce your damage when it's up).
The only problem I could see would be that focusing so heavily on evasion creates some spikiness issues, though having an absorb shield would ameliorate that somewhat. As long as the class doesn't rely *too* heavily on the absorb shield (which would create problems where the absorb shield doesn't scale with incoming damage properly), it could work out very well while not playing like either of the existing tanks, especially if 1-3 of the job skills were straight up DR buffs.
The "Berserker as DPS Marauder" works, but, as Yag has stated, it suffers from being *too* similar to the Warrior, both in playstyle as well as theme (hell, it even has an ability called "Inner Beast"). "Berserker as tank Pugilist" creates a substantially different playstyle from the base class and other jobs in the same role while allowing you to follow a different theme (animal mimicry combat). -
10-29-2013, 06:01 AMTzain
So, I like theory designing, so clearly I came to the right thread. However I do approach it from a slightly different angle. To me, I take the class and then see if I can make a job to specialize the class into a sub role. After that I try and find a traditional FF job that meets the concept.
1.Geomancer – Proactive healer: Base Class of Conjurer with sub classes of Archer and thm
Concept: Uses proactive Shield type heals with a heavy use of Stone Skin. Designed with heavy use of Cleric stance. In order to heal without MND, the heals have to be shield based and scale with the targets own defense/hp.
Overgrowth – Direct Damage attack that heals nearby players for amount proportional to the damage dealt.
Touch of Stone – DOT on enemy, attacks made against the enemy has a chance to refresh Stoneskin or Earthen Blood (but not at the same time).
Avalanche: Self buff that temporarily increases Damage and Spell speed with each Stoneskin, Earthen Blood, Stone, Stone II, or Overgrowth cast. Stacks up to 5 times, casting any spell besides a spell on this list will cancel the effect immediately. Lasts until canceled. Cooldown. (note: by design, canceling cleric stance will cancel avalanche)
Body of Earth: Party wide effect. Decreases the damage done by the next hit by 80%, inflicts HEAVY on the party while in effect.
Earthen Blood: increases the hp of a party member by 25% in the form of a shield (damage done to the shield cannot be healed except by Touch of Stone procs). Earthen blood shield is affected by damage only after stone skin has been destroyed -
11-06-2013, 04:16 PMMartaDemireux
Made some very big changes to the OP!
TIM:
AF/UI Demi effect chances increased from 5% per stack to 10%.
Fixed wording
Demi II now does AoE damage based on max mp instead of current mp, lowered recast.
Demi has a lower recast
GEO:
Ignore Terrain will now pop up a bar similar to a pet bar to select the element of your next geomancy yourself instead of relying on your elemental resistances.
CNJ's Cleric Stance no longer swaps MND/INT
Geomancy is now a normal nuke with high potency and low mp cost on a 20s timer
Nature's Fury is now the area of effect DoT. If it criticals there is a 5% chance Geomancy timer will be reset
Nature's Wrath now works only with Geomancy to have more control and prevent something from being too OP like an AoE DoT on top of an AoE DoT. Recast dropped from 3min to 2min to account for this.
DRK: (big changes)
Blood Weapon now drains 25% of your damage
Removed Dread Spikes (too much of a tank ability)
Added Diabolic Eye stance with Malevolence mechanic
Darkside now a weaponskill in combo with Riot Blade, combo grants 1 stack of Malevolence
Souleater now has the effect of old Darkside
Darkness now costs both MP and HP
Removed access to vengeance
Arcanist is now the required subclass
Lancer is now the additional skillpool class
Lore somewhat changed
Drain cast time reduced from 3s to 1s and will consume Malevolence
BRS: (major changes inspired by Kitru, thanks for your ideas!)
Changed from a MRD DPS to a PGL Tank
Lore somewhat changed
5 new abilities
Will wear current PGL gear
Gains substantial damage reduction under Berserk stance (15% through greased lightning, 10% through Fists of earth) to account for lower defenses/HP and abilities that change you to Raptor Form will increase enmity.
TMP:
Boncrusher increases enmity. Combo Potency increased
Discipline dmg increase lowered from 20% to 15%
With the major changes to Berserker I'm considering a different MRD DPS now, such as Viking. Vikings were more tanky in other games but I think they'd fit the class well with the whole sea pirate thing.
Also in the process of editing in my concepts as I did with FNC/FLA ideas for those familiar with them. -
11-06-2013, 11:52 PMTzain
Got another one.
Astrologist - Consistant Damage Dealer (sub conjurer [Cure/Fluid Aura/Aero] and Archer [raging strikes/quelling strikes]
THM that focuses more on the Thunderstorm mechanic than the Firestarter one. The idea being that they could stack and spread DOT damage using their thunder spells.
Subtle Flux (self buff): Allow Thunder I, II, and III to stack their damage (the dots of each spell are independent. Triples the chance of Thunderstorm procs per Thunder stack. Subtle Flux prevents the growth and refresh of Astral Fire but does not remove astral fire effects already in effect.
Pulse: Spreads any Thunder effects to nearby enemies. 15% chance to refresh their timers
Electrocution – Consumes all available thunder dots on target and does immediate damage related to the thunders consumed. If this attack kills the enemy, the casters mp is fully restored. (off GCD and doesn’t trigger GCD)
Charged Web: persistant ground effect. Any enemies inside the effect take damage and paralyze is inflicted.
Ability 5: I’m not sure here, I think I need something defensive in the mix? -
11-13-2013, 12:45 PMMartaDemireux
Updated OP with a whole new idea for Geomancer to make use of the unused Tornado/Quake/Flood abilities that a DPS CNJ job could learn. I still really like my original idea but I really like my new one too so I kept both up. They both function the same as well, being a DPS with a strong focus in AoE.
I like the idea of a job primarily using Thunder but not sure how balanced that would be in the long run. It honestly sounds a lot like SMN to me overall. It would be interesting to see if such a system of inhibiting AF/UI could turn a THM into a healer somehow though. But as someone said earlier, it's really less about inhibiting the mechanic and more about working with it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzain
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11-14-2013, 12:19 AMTzainIt is similar to the Summoner in that it uses DOT's, I like DOT classes....problem is I HATE managing Pets. Since they are both coming from that position it's hard not to overlap. Especially when many of the summoner ideas are really good! Electrocution oddly enough is actually more based on the MRD ability Mercy Blade. Charged Web is a variant on how the BLM ability Freeze SHOULD work.Quote:
Originally Posted by MartaDemireux
The removal of the Astral Fire was a last minute adjustment for balance. The fact is that unless the Firestarter/AFIII mechanic was removed/replaced, the job was horribly OP compared to the BLM (which is hard not to do given how inherently unimpressive BLM is over THM). I didn't like the idea of removing the Firestarter mechanic since it feels like punishment, so I felt that removing the burn/regen cycle was the next best idea. You can still use Fire1>FireIII, but it's not quite as powerful without the astral fire to buff it up. And with thunderstorm procs being free, proper DOT maintainence should be light on Mana.
All this feeds into the main advantage of the job. Speed and Mobility. After the initial DOT stack you can maintain the offense using thunderstorm instant casts rather than planting your feet and rolling into a burn cycle. Which is one of the reasons why Electrocution is interesting, you're basically doing instant damage, but the consumption of the DOTs means you're going to have to sit still and stack them up again. -
11-14-2013, 12:52 AMTzainOn BLM, I have access to two things. 1 is Umbral Ice, the other is a cross Class Physic spell. Between these two abilities, I can essentially spam a heal spell forever. I also have access to Healer Gear, so if I REALLY wanted to, I could easily make a BLM into a pseudo healer with little effort. Just don't get poisoned.Quote:
Originally Posted by MartaDemireux
If I was creating a job for this, all I'd really have to do is sub CNJ and add cross class Esuna and Cure II. Umbral Ice + Cure/Cure II + Esuna really takes care of about 90% of all healing situations. Cleric stance being present would let you stance dance back into your THM skills with little effort and go into a burn cycle.
So that's a core of a THM healer without even using a single job skill. So there's quite a bit of leeway here. So let's check the overlap....
THM + CNJ
Spam spells w/procs: Cure/Fire
DOTs: Aero/Thunder
MP Regen: Blizzard-line
CC: Sleep/repose
DOT's aren't really going to help here, this isn't going to be subtle. Just pure smash mouth healing. So we end up with two options.
Either Cure spells trigger Astral Fire, or Cure Spells trigger Umbral Ice. Both have very different playstyles.
If Cure and Fire both trigger AF, then the player has to be super careful of mana burning at the wrong time and not having anything left for heals. Also, having to heal too aggressively would end up leaving the player out of mana very fast.
If Cure triggers Umbral Ice though, the player is basically alternating between two cycles, Healing/Regen and Damage/Burn. I think this is the more group friendly, but also dangerously close to overpowered as the resource for your healing is essentially neverending.
Of course, Cure could be left off the cycles entirely.....but where would the fun be in that!
The other interesting thing is the THM AE Sleep. Sleep is essentially a situational heal that prevents 100% of incoming damage. When considered like that, it's crazy powerful and I long ago learned that most dungeon content is designed for this. Rarely do you have 3 unsleepable mobs that hit really hard. So if you're looking for preventative healing, that's your boy.
Seems pretty easy all things considered. -
11-14-2013, 11:50 PMZodiacSoldierNew Jobs Ideas
Current Classes
GLA - Will get Dark Knight as a DPS class, Cecil was a DRK that used sword and shield, it wasn't until the XI where they got to use Scythe. I also think its a nice contrast to have them opposite of PLDs.
MRD - Possibly Berserker or Beastmaster for their DPS Jobs, only Jobs I can think of that used axe styled weapons.
PUG - Puppetmaster for a second DPS Job that uses a pet, they already have puppets in game, will most likely be another DPS class but provides utility as well.
ARC - Ranger of course, a pure DPS Job for our archers.
LNC - Templar - Tank Job like you said, think its a great idea
CNJ - Geomancer - A DPS class since CNJ already focus on nature and their surroundings, Geomancer will be a great fit.
THM - Time Mage - Instead of DPS, A healing class that have alot of buffs and provide HOTs.
ACN - Already have two
New Classes-
Musketeer - (Guns) Already have a guild in LL, will have Corsair which plays like BRD and Chemist which is a healing class that uses potion to heal and provide other useful abilities.
Duelist - (Rapiers and shield) A melee caster class that uses sword and magic. Jobs will be Red Mage which is a healer that use magic to enhance their parties defense and heals. And Blue Mage a melee DPS that use magic to supplement their offence.
Soldier - (uses Great Swords) A melee Tank that can use rune magic. Jobs will be Rune Fencer which is a tank that is specialize to tank spells. Mystic Knight - DPS class that have alot magic buffs and status effects.
Rogue - (Dual Daggers) A melee DPS class, SE already hinted they plan to add a scout class to the game. Jobs will be Thief a melee DPS class and Dancer a melee DPS that provides buff's like BRD class or possibly a healing class
Ronin - (Dual Katanas) Gets Samurai a DPS class, Ninja a evasion style tanking class.
As you can see alot are from FFXI, since SE already have a based, it may be easier to implement jobs from the previous games. -
11-16-2013, 02:11 AMGamemakoClearly so, lol. I see you've made considerable changes. I'll look it over and give some feedback.Quote:
Originally Posted by MartaDemireux
Stats won't do it. You need mitigation of some sort, either before or after the hit. You cannot rely on Bonecrusher at all because it's a combo effect -- you'd have to sit on it until an enemy is about it hit you (enmity problems ahead!), and if it gets the autoattack before the Mountain Buster, you're still toast. As a primary mitigation method, it doesn't scale to multiple opponents, so when you've got 4 mobs on you, you're dead meat.Quote:
Originally Posted by MartaDemireux
Your Discipline ability boosts damage, for whatever reason, when damage doesn't keep you alive. Lifebreak has the same problem. These need to be refocused to boost survival, which is where your design is lacking. Faith is just a hyrbird of Convalesce and Thrill of Battle, minus the skill synergy. You don't have continuous mitigation in any sense at all, and you have no +eHP stance. You'll have the lowest eHP of the tanks, no continuous mitigation whatsoever (healers need at least 20% more MP to heal you just as a baseline), poor burst mitigation, extreme timing requirements for what you do have, and limited enmity. You get the luxury of being a PLD for 1/4 of the time through Blood for Blood, which isn't going to make you much of a tank. You need to justify how your tank is fulfilling party needs. How is it surviving big his and extended bursts? How is it reducing healing requirements?
That's just somebody spamming a gimped Cure rather than a healer. It's no different than calling a PLD a healer with access to "unlimited" MP through Riot Blade and "healer" gear through MND melds (haha, mind melds).Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzain
The ideas you've suggested are a lot of impossible mechanics. You cannot have a cross-class ability trigger a class-unique proc. You lack a way to move into UI mode while healing, nor is UI going to make you an effective healer. Your burst healing would be terrible and you'd have no AoE heals. You cannot cross-class CureII due to being a class-quest ability, not to mention that your job would be utterly unusable at the level 15 requirement for CNJ. CNJ does not even have Esuna until 18. Your job would be uniquely unusable from the get-go, something no current class has (and I'd wager, no future class will have). You'd need to cross-class 5 abilities (Cure/II, Esuna, Raise, Protect) at level 30, where you have 3 cross-class slots. Basically, it wouldn't work.
I'm not really opposed to requiring cross-class abilities, and a THM healer isn't necessarily totally impossible, but it will require some serious ability hijacking. It's vastly more complex than you're suggesting. You can give a baseline cross-class heal, and hijack AF/UI for MP regen and burst healing. It's not really about fitting things into level 50, either; it's fitting things into level 30. If you just cared about level 50, you could do Heal/AF (baseline HoT), Heal2/AF (AoE), and Heal3/AF (burst), Cleanse, and Raise. Assume cross-class Cure for UI heals. Pretty much covers your bases, sans aggro drop. Might require a bit of effort dealing with Transpose -- CD would probably have to be cut in half at least. Problem is, you need those abilities (sans cleanse) at level 30. -
11-16-2013, 02:23 PMMartaDemireuxThanks for bringing Discipline up. That's a remnant from before and I'm going to change it up a bit. You'll see in "changes to LNC" that all direction based attacks no longer require the direction and instead increase enmity. Before I had that, Discipline had the increased damage to increase their enmity. So they shouldn't really have enmity problems (especially when paired with cross class). Though I think I'll add some increased enmity to Heavy Thrust as well.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
Under the same section you'll see the "Heavy Thrust" buff gives 5% damage reduction. As the attack is also a directional based one it has increased enmity and is also used in combo with Bonecrusher so will be maintained at all times, in addition to being on heavy armor sets. So they do have mitigation but Discipline will be changed so they have more. They also get their Keen Flurry and Life surge and the from LNC of course. Bonecrusher does need some work though I agree.
Changes being made to OP:
Templar:
Bonecrusher: Counter will work only for auto-attacks but be guaranteed and have a duration of 15s. Only counters attacks originating from in front of the user. Cannot overwrite itself. Debuff in place for 10 seconds after it wears off that prevents its re-application.
Discipline: This now will provide a flat 35% damage reduction and 35% increased parry rate as well as a minor Regen effect.
Heavy Thrust: In addition to it's 5% damage reduction it will increase the enmity of all actions while in effect.
Lifebreaker: Will now also heal user, potency requirements unchanged. If Phlebotomize damage is critical there is a 10% chance recast timer will reset.
Dark Knight:
Darkness: Fleshed out the details of this. Included it in a combo with Circle of Scorn. -
11-16-2013, 11:25 PMVevi
based from Mr. ZodiacSoldier's post
my ideas for new jobs (I don't have any idea how all of this can be possible tho)
GLD - oh lawd help me here, no idea. Only thing that comes out to mind is a Mystic Knight which can be a spell-weapon based DPS. (still sad to know that pallys can't heal)
MRD - Berserker as DPS option for tanky MRDs, give them the ability to dual wield axes and they will look scary.
PUG - Puppermaster that heals based on FFXI
LNC - Dark Knight as DPS, okay why not from GLD? because I think scythes from FFXI are sexier imo (scythes should be DRK exclusive)
ARC - Ranger for a PURE DPS class because of popular demand
CNJ - Geomancer as DPS class but pls no stone spamming lol
THM - Time Mage as a healing class because of lack of healers
ACN - already had 2 jobs :( though I want a Beastmaster come from here utilizing pet skills (should have been SMN)
we know how badly this game needs tanks so introducing new classes:
Quote:
Katana-wielding class that can be a Samurai (tank) or Ninja (eva-based tank or DPS)
Rapier + Shield wielding class that can be a Red Mage (DPS) or Blue Mage (DPS) both can be very hard to implement though
Dagger-wielding class that can be a Thief (stealth DPS) or Dancer as healing class because of lack of healers OR bard-like support DPS but I prefer them healing, seems odd but I can also see them using fists from PUG
Gun-wielding class that can be a Corsair (DPS) or Chemist that heals (no not Alchemist)
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11-19-2013, 12:46 AMMariusAndre
I'd like to see a scout/rogue class. Imagine a Lala running around with daggers slicing stuff with insane DPS. That would be frickin' awesome. :cool:
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11-19-2013, 09:45 AMGamemakoHeavy Thrust and Impulse Drive are your only two positional abilities. You just don't have nearly enough enmity through that to hold enmity. Even with 1.5x Defiance plus 1x/3x/5x combo on high-potency attacks, you're barely holding enmity against an ilvl90 MNK with a fresh 50 WAR. Seriously, spamming BB combo will put you at about a 10% lead. BB combo is 3600 enmity-potency with a 25% damage penalty. Either Heavy Thrust is giving you a 4x enmity modifier or you're dead in the water. You're also relying solely on cross-class Flash for AoE enmity and have no access at all to ranged enmity.Quote:
Originally Posted by MartaDemireux
You need enmity on your pull. You will never be an acceptable tank without it. If you had a 4x enmity modifier on Piercing Talon and added a 3x on top of that, you'd have 12x enmity on it, or more enmity than BB puts out in a combo hit. Pick your poison, really. For AoE enmity, Ring of Thorns and Doom Spike come too late to be primary enmity generators -- you need it at 30, so you're stuck with Flash. I don't see a good way forward for a level 30 LNC tank except to make Full Thrust combo your standard enmity combo, Piercing Talon a standard pull, and give a unique AoE enmity move at 30. You can afford to put off a tanking stance until 35 or 40. PLD doesn't have one until 40 and has Rampart as its most potent cooldown until Convalesce trait at 32 and Sentinel at 38.
Note, though, that you cannot afford to make a tank which is weaker at tanking and offers higher damage. You're the tank, or you're dumped off the team. In the interest of balance, you pretty much have to make one of your abilities into a tanking stance. Your gear is going to add +200 strength, so even if you pushed base STR to comically-low levels, you'd still do too much damage to be balanced and just scale in the most busted way imaginable (missing out on STR would make your HORRIBLY gimped -- at fresh 50, you'd be hopeless, then you'd be a beast at ilvl90 anyway). Remember that even if you tried to take STR off gear, you'd still have Allagan with +STR on it. No real way to address it except with a tanking stance -- you'd want to do so anyway due to splitting tanking and non-tanking DPS the way current tanks do. It's a design decision the devs made that all future designs have no choice but to mimic.
In short, it's my opinion that you're stuck with
Piercing Talon +enmity
Full Thrust combo +enmity
Leg Sweep on-GCD
30: AoE enmity
35: Tank stance -- reduces damage by 25%, +enmity, +tank-relevant effects (parry strength, heal, magic resistance, debuff immunity, whatever)
40-50: tank abilities -- DPS boosts need not apply
plus need to account for eHP weakness somewhere. Debuff immunity somewhere seems a likely candidate in that you have to contend with a level 34 ability which is useless to a tank as an enmity spike unless you have a way to avoid the damage penalty.
As long as you don't put any extra points into STR from LNC, you should be fine for off-tanking balance. Basically no off-GCD abilities, so you're pretty much the same as WAR with more potency and a weaker damage buff (+10% instead of +20%), with WAR having higher spike (+41% or so from Berserk with +9% Inner Release) and a pacification afterward while off-tank TMP would be more consistent but would have additional vulnerability for the duration. This is also why TMP cannot have any more damage abilities (at least not which do not require the use of the tanking stance). -
11-19-2013, 07:51 PMDuelleI'm not too keen on Astrologist as a job, seeing that they seem to be fairly common in Ishgard, and jobs tend to be long-forgotten disciplines.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzain
Here's my take as well as the related jobs:
Class: Astrologist
By the decree of Ishgard's Holy See, the nation's decisions in its eternal battle against the dragonkin falls to the discoveries and research led by its astrologists. The fruits of their labors have yet to lead the theocracy wrong, and as such these men and women apply their trade in the reading and understanding of the stars, and thus, the fate surrounding their comrades and foes.
Using their knowledge of the stars as an interpretation of the past and possible futures, astrologists can sentence foes or save allies from danger. With enough training, these mages can even stave off death within their ranks while bringing certain doom to their enemies.
Weapons: Astrologists use armillary spheres (would have called it astrolabe but we already have a THM weapon bearing that name). Instant-cast spells would release a small light from the sphere, while casting animations should have the astrologist arrange the arrays on his sphere to show he is adjusting celestial arrays. When sheathed the spheres should have a protective cover (i'd recommend a collapsible outer shell).
Concept: A healer with a couple of DPS options for soloing.
Abilities
01 Banish: Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 140. 2.5 second cast time.
02 Situla: Restores HP over time. Instant cast. 30 second duration.
04 Lesath: Delivers damage over time. 21 second duration. Instant cast.
06 Cujam: Delivers unaspected damage with a potency of 10. Inflicts target with 50% slow and 50% gravity. 12 second duration. Instant cast. 45 second cooldown.
08 Convergence: Reduces your magic attack potency by 70%, but allows your offensive spells to heal you and allies within 15 yalms for 100% of the damage dealt. 20-second duration. 5 minute cooldown.
10 Kornephoros: Delivers non-aspected damage over 6 seconds at increasing potency (40/80). 3 second cast time.
12 Pollux: Restores HP of target, and heals a party member with the least HP for 30% of the amount healed.
15 Dispel: Removes one status ailment from target ally.
18 Deneb: Restores 30% of target's MP over 15 seconds. 4 minute cooldown.
22 Banish II: Deals unaspected damage with a potency of 100 and deals additional damage over time for 18 seconds. 3 second cast time.
26 Scutulum: Places a barrier on target that reduces damage taken per attack by 5% and heals target for X HP. Absorbs damage equal to 10% of target's max HP. 3 minute duration. Can only be active on one target.
30 Celestial Stasis: Stops the countdown of healing over time effects on target ally or damage over time effects on target enemy. 20 second duration. 3 minute cooldown.
34 Blink: Reduces enmity by 20%.
38 Mira: Restores own HP and that of nearby allies. Channeled over 6 seconds.
42 Bound by Fate: Creates a tether between target and one party member within 5 yalms. As long as the tether is active, damage is split between the two in a 70/30 split. Last 15 seconds or until damage equal to 25% of the target's max HP has been divided.
46 Delay: Absorbs damage up to 25% of the your max HP, then deals this damage over 18 seconds. Ignores Stoneskin-type effects.
50 Lavos: Target enemy receives damage over time for 9 seconds. On the 10th second, target explodes. DoT effect: 20 Potency. Explosion: 150 potency.
Traits
08 Expansive Mind I: Grants a X% bonus to INT or MND, whichever is highest.
14 Expansive Mind II: Grants an additional x% bonus to INT or MND, whichever is highest.
16 Enhanced Cujam: Cujam now also Disorients target.
20 Enhanced Convergence: Reduces Convergence's cooldown to 4 minutes.
24 Cup of Life: Pollux now heals two party members with the lowest HP.
28 Enhanced Kornephoros: Kornephoros now deals damage over 9 seconds at increasing potency (40/80/120).
32 Expansive Mind III: Grants an additional x% bonus to INT and MND, whichever is highest.
36 Enhanced Deneb: Deneb now restores 50% MP over 9 seconds when used on yourself.
42 Purge: Dispel can now be used on enemies to remove one beneficial status from them.
44 Aegis: Scutulum can now absorb damage equal to 15% of target's max HP.
48 Enhanced Blink: Blink reduces an additional 30% enmity over 6 seconds.
Notes
- As always, potency numbers and percentages can be tweaked and are very negotiable.
- This version of Astrologist is themed around delayed effects and a little more focused on healing. It would be more difficult to play with solo because you have to ensure you live long enough for your attacks do their thing. To give the class a way to defend itself, I felt the Banish line of spells was appropriate.
- Given this new theme, I wanted Convergence to be like Cleric Stance, but decided against it because it would probably lead to Time Mage using this to heal the group while also doing damage. I felt it worked better as a cooldown in case the party were to need extra healing while sacrificing a lot of damage potential.
- Expansive Mind is designed to help push the AST in their chosen direction. If the AST is gearing for MND then they'll get even more bonuses for MND to help them go into healing. If the AST is gearing for INT then expansive mind will do the same for INT. An alternative would be inflicting a penalty on the lower of the two stats and add this amount to the greater stat. This would reduce the chances of balance issues as the AST gains levels.
- The HoT effect from Situla is fairly weak.
- Dispel would start as an ally-only spell, but would become useful on AST and both of its jobs to remove enemy buffs.
- Bound by Fate is a mitigation cooldown. Of course, the downside is that the two targets involved would have to be close for it to work.
- Celestial Stasis literally stops the countdown of any HoT/DoT placed by you on the target. I originally wanted it to affect all HoTs/DoTs on the target, but then the synergy between AST/TIM/GRM and ACN/SMN/SCH would be ridiculous.
- As an example, if you placed Lesath, Banish II's DoT and Lavos on a mob then used Celestial Stasis, the countdowns on all three spells would stop while their effects would still continue. In the case of Lavos the DoT effect would continue and resume where it left off once CS wore off.
- Deneb is in an iffy spot. I wanted to give AST the ability to recharge the MP of one party member or themselves when called for. At the same time, I didn't want to create a refresh-whore scenario again, which is why I decided to give it a long cooldown so that it is used in times of need rather than something other casters would expect the AST to keep on them at all times. More like Innervate (from WoW) and less like Refresh.
- Scutulum would be taken into account AFTER other damage mitigation effects have been calculated. If a PLD with Rampart and Stoneskin on them receives the Scutulum effect, Scut's 5% damage reduction would apply after the hit in question being reduced by Rampart and being absorbed by Stoneskin. I'm not sure on whether the auto-heal effect should proc in the event you take no damage.
- The way Scut works is as follows: If you use it on a paladin with 6000 HP, untraited Scut will create a block threshold of 600 HP. Tank proceeds to eat a Mountain Buster from Titan that after Shield Oath+Rampart would do 2000 damage. Scut mitigates 5% of that, which is 100 HP (knocking MB's damage down to 1900). Now Scut's block threshold is 500 HP. If Titan were to break his rotation and do another Mountain Buster, that's another 100 HP mitigated and Scut's threshold is now 400 HP. Titan would have to do 4 more mountain busters in a row in order for that PLD to lose the Scutulum effect.
- Pollux is a smart heal. Because of its target limit, WHM would still have better AoE heals while AST/GRM would use Pollux to top people off where needed (might prove useful if the Siren's Song mechanic is ever used again).
- Disorient would be a new status effect where a mob's "controls" would be messed up for the duration. On a mob, they would try to wander around unable to do anything. On a player character movement controls would be rearranged (pressing up makes you go left, pressing down makes you go up, and so on). Think the mushroom effect from Earthbound. If that doesn't ring a bell, Wildstar is going to implement a status ailment of that nature. >.>
- Disorient, like other statuses, would also have diminishing returns.
- Delay is a self-preservation cooldown.
- As for some of the ability names: Cujam and Kornephoros are named after two stars in the constellation Heracles ("Club" and "Club-bearer", respectively). Situla is the water jar from the constellation Aquarius. Deneb is a star from the constellation Cygnus. Pollux is a star from the constellation Gemini. Mira is a star from the constellation Cetus (and part of the etymology for the word miracle). Lesath is a star from the constellation Scorpius. Lavos means "big fire". :O
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Job: Time Mage
As with the majority of forces in the world, time and space can be bent by the will of an individual with the right training. In ages past, such individuals existed within a coven known as the Followers of Althyk. Those with the right talent were inducted into the coven as Keepers of Time, or Time Mages, and were charged with ensuring right outcomes, futures and events played out on the stage of history.
It was not long until an ancient empire branded them as fiends when they allowed the heiress to their throne to perish. Not long after the scandals that followed, the coven mysteriously vanished from the face of Hydaelin, and has not been seen since.
Mechanics: Equipping the TIM crystal gives Banish and Banish II a 25% chance to double the potency of your next Kornephoros. Banish II's damage over time ticks have a 10% chance to make your next Gravity frontload its damage and apply its weight effect at full potency for the whole duration. It also reduces your MND (base value + any stat points allocated to MND) by 10% and increases your INT by half of the reduced amount.
Support Classes: ACN (Ruin, Eye for an Eye, Virus), THM (Thunder, Surecast, Swiftcast)
30 Stop: Prevents enemy from moving or acting. Effect breaks if enemy is attacked.
35 Gravity: Afflicts enemy with a weight effect that grows stronger over 6 seconds. Upon ending, target receives non-aspected damage with a potency of 200. 2.5 second cast time.
40 Slow: Slows enemy attack speed by 70% for 12 seconds.
45 Comet: Channeled spell. Channel spell for 6 seconds, causing comets to hit all enemies within a 10-yalm targetted area.
50 Hastega: Increases skill and spell speed of all allies by 80% for 24 seconds. Inflicts all recipients with Temporal Displacement, preventing them from receiving this effect for 7 minutes. 7-minute cooldown.
Time Mage Notes
- Stop joins Sleep and Repose under the "useful crowd control" category. While TIM cannot stop multiple enemies at once, Stop could be spammed to control multiple enemies.
- Here's how Gravity works: You cast Gravity on a mob, applying the unique debuff Gravity. Over six seconds the weight effect increases from 10% to 60%. As soon as the weight reaches its max potency, Gravity wears off and the target takes the damage. Think of a person being slowly burdened by heavy weights to the point they get crushed. Much like Kornephoros, Gravity is NOT affected by Celestial Stasis.
- Comet is there because we can't use Meteor. I guess the closest graphic comparison we have in-game is Starstorm (caster lv2 Limit Break), but taking place over 6 seconds as the Time Mage is channeling the spell.
- Temporal Displacement is there to prevent stacking Time Mages and chain-using Hastega.
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Job: Green Mage
Understanding the theory of aetheric manipulation beyond the bounds of the elements and the stars, ancient academics once possessed the ability to manipulate aether inside the bodies of living creatures, easing their pain while using the patient's own energies in the healing process.
As most of these exercises and theories were tested on flora and fauna, these self-professed "natural medics" were known to most as Green Mages. It was said that at the height of their art, a Green Mage once restored a forest from a desert wasteland with a single tree sappling and a handful of seeds.
Mechanics: Equipping the GRM crystal causes Situla to increases your spell speed by X% whenever it is active. It also reduces your INT (base value + stat points allocated to INT) by 10% and increases your MND by half of the reduced amount.
Support Classes: CNJ (Cure, Stoneskin, Protect, Cleric Stance), ACN (Eye for an Eye, Physic, Virus)
30 Stimulate: Restore target's HP. Greater healing potency if target is under the effect of Situla.
35 Renascence: Revives target ally in a weakened state.
40 Profusion: Infuse energy into a designated area, allowing any allies that step in it to recover HP over time. 12 second duration. 24 second cooldown.
45 Life Font: Marks an ally. Direct healing effects received by them place a healing over time effect on all nearby allies. 15 second duration. 60 second cooldown.
50 Meridian Ripple: Restores 30% of all allies' HP and removes one status ailments from each. 5-minute cooldown.
Green Mage Notes
- The increase to spell speed is meant to encourage a GRM to keep Situla up as much as possible.
- Yes, GRM gets its version of Raise at lv35. I figure if the devs were willing to make SCH wait until lv40 to be able to remove debuffs with Leeches, GRM can afford to wait until lv35 to be able to rez.
- GRM's healing abilities: a direct heal via Stimulate, a weak HoT via Situla, a smart heal with Pollux, (chanelled) group healing with Mira, and a healing zone with Profusion.
- Speaking of Stimulate, without Situla on the target Stimulate's potency is significantly reduced (I'm thinking probably 25-50% of what it can heal for if Situla were up on the target).
- Life Font is heavily inspired of Divine Veil, a 1.0 PLD ability that placed a HoT on people near the PLD whenever the PLD received a direct heal.
- Rather than being for low HP emergencies, Meridian Ripple would shine in situations where some HP needs to be recovered but with buff removal being more important. -
11-19-2013, 10:26 PMLittle_Lulu
I want Templar...(Lnc30/Cnj15) Functions as a 2 handed DPS with supportive skills for allies.
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11-20-2013, 04:51 AMTzainI name the design last. So I'm never tied to it. I decided to create something based around Thunderstorm procs rather than firestarter.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
Plus, Paladins aren't long-forgotten, they're just rare because they didn't want Adventurers to join.
As for your Green Mage idea. The idea of stacking marks (sigils?) on a target could have some legs. Especially given a "stack and consume" mechanic. I actually think you'd be better off baking these into the Astrologist class and making it a pre-30 healer. Stack offense DOTs and consume for Burst, Stack Defensive Marks and Consume for Burst. Maybe a Consume for burst and also a consume for spreading? Like stacking Marks on the Tank and then move them from the Tank to all the rest of the group. Has a nice "Risk vs Reward" idea behind it and the timing works well with Cleric Stance (or something like it). Generally speaking though, don't use Max Range. It's just going to inflict pain on you. if you're spreading them around, make the healing range basically twice the range of Medica II if the point of spread is the tank, preferably though, base the spread range on yourself and match the range to Medica II.
Then at 30 you can split it into a DMG focused aspect and a Healer focused aspect, but both of the basics are all there in the class itself.
So the class might be 1-30 baseline dps/heals, 30-50 debuffs and utility. Then the Jobs take the heals and dps respectively and ramp them up?
All in all it feels a lot like how I played my Plant based healer in DCUO. I stacked the Regens and then consumed them for Burst healing. the difference there was, the regen was an aftereffect of the heal but given how FFXIV works, I don't think it's a problem.
EDIT: Oh, and for a weapon, how bout a sweet crystal ball? Bringing back the old school FF1! -
11-20-2013, 07:40 AMMartaDemireuxI had actually meant for Piercing Talon to have enmity, lumping ranged properties in the direction requirements. Should have mentioned it specifically though, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Gamemako
I was hoping for Heavy Thrust to take the place of a stance, though, with my changes of adding enmity and damage mitigation. It'd be maintained through an enmity combo HT>Bonecrusher. I thought it would be more engaging to maintain your stance rather than a set it and forget it like Shield Oath. Since Heavy Thrust's direction bonus would now be in front of the target it would be able to have 100% uptime. But I do see the reasoning in needing an actual stance. If a combo has to be used to maintain enmity and a stance it makes the other attacks less likely to be used except in off tanking. Then if you have the 300p attacks off the tanking combo you could run into getting too much enmity too. I'll have to think on how I'd like to include one but thanks for the idea.
Blood for Blood in my idea does reverse the effects on TMP remember. Damage taken reduced by 25%, damage dealt reduced by 20%. A mini Shield Oath. -
11-20-2013, 04:05 PMMartaDemireux
All right, gave it some thought and have made some considerable changes (as well as clarifications) to Templar:
Astra: Changed to level 30. Placed on GCD. Timers adjusted slightly, added MP Cost.
Discipline: Changed to level 35. Turned into the tanking stance. Reduced damage mitigation and Parrying Rate for 100% uptime, added Parrying Strength and enmity increases.
Faith: Changed to level 40. Removed Regen. Increased recast time to 180s.
Lifebreaker: Changed to level 45. Removed damage dealt added a Regen effect.
Bonecrusher: Changed to level 50 and from a weaponskill to a mitigation buff. This is the Templar's panic button so to speak. For 15s it counters the damage from auto-attacks and adds an 80% Parrying Rate increase which bumps them to 100% Parrying Rate under Discipline. Their Parrying Strength will also be bumped up to a flat 65%. With this they will only suffer 25% damage of the target's special attacks (weaponskills, abilities, magic etc.) under Discipline. Since it's not as powerful as Hallowed Ground I made it have a recast of 5min.
All "Thrust" abilities: Will have increased enmity. This will facilitate a 3 step combo for maintaining enmity and give minor enmity increase for offtanking with the lower DPS combo.
Reinstated positional requirements for other weaponskills sans Heavy Thrust.
Ring of Thorns: Added a Combo Bonus: Add.Effect: Increased enmity.
Piercing Talon: Specified the enmity increase.
With these changes in mind I gave Berserker another look with a fresh mind and decided on some changes for it as well:
Berserk: Changed name to Instinct. Derped on MRD having Berserk already. Greased Lightning (per stack): Increased damage mitigation from 5% to 8%, decreased evasion bonus from 7% to 5%. Attacks that change form to Coeurl will also give an enmity boost.
Mad Rush: Changed to level 35. Placed on GCD. Potency reduced to 110. This is the Berserker's pull.
Scream: Changed to level 40. Changed to Howl. Increases own maximum HP by 20% and nearby party members' HP by 5% for 45s. Recast of 240s. Forgot PGL had access to a GCD AoE Silence as well as a 40s stun. I'm thinking about changing the stun to GCD for Berserker but still undecided.
Eject: Changed to level 45. Recast reduced from 60s to 50s.
Hone Senses: Changed to Inner Calm. Removed critical hit rate buff and added an 80% evasion and critical evasion buff. Berserker needed a panic button of sorts. This allows them, with 3 GL stacks, to have a 95% evasion. Since there is still the chance of being struck by a hit I made the duration be longer with a 300s recast. Featherfoot cannot be used while this buff is active and this buff will overwrite it.
Given access to: Marauder's Berserk since it no longer stems from MRD. -
11-20-2013, 09:42 PMDuelleThat was the idea. You set up marks on allies then use convergence to detonate them. I was having a hard time figuring out what the detonate effects would be. Well, other than "bigger heal". For example, I was thinking Mira would be a HoT effect but if you detonate it it becomes a burst heal for the amount remaining in the HoT. It would make that aspect of healing reactive. Of course, the major hurdle is healing throughput and how it compares to WHM and SCH.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzain
While I agree that we need another baseline healing class, we've yet to see how far the devs are willing to go in drawing a second job from CNJ, which is why I used a similar approach to what the devs took with ACN.Quote:
I actually think you'd be better off baking these into the Astrologist class and making it a pre-30 healer. Stack offense DOTs and consume for Burst, Stack Defensive Marks and Consume for Burst.
Mine was more inspired by resto druids, which is why I suggested Stimulate and its synergy with Mira/Alfirk (similar to how Nourish and Lifebloom synergize).Quote:
All in all it feels a lot like how I played my Plant based healer in DCUO. I stacked the Regens and then consumed them for Burst healing. the difference there was, the regen was an aftereffect of the heal but given how FFXIV works, I don't think it's a problem.
Crystal balls imply divination, which the astrologists of Ishgard have already mentioned they have nothing to do with. Their carrying grimoires actually makes sense, but I would not want a class overlaping with arcanists. I would have suggested astrolabes but as I said, we already have a THM weapon bearing that name. A portable version of armillary spheres may work, IMO.Quote:
Oh, and for a weapon, how bout a sweet crystal ball?
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11-21-2013, 02:57 AMKitruThat's Shield Oath with a further parry buff added to it, and one that is *way* in excess of what a Shield would provide. You'd be giving Templar explicitly higher mean mitigation than either WAR or PLD, assuming their CD suite isn't a joke (which it doesn't look like would happen).Quote:
Originally Posted by MartaDemireux
Having it last 60 seconds is just absurd, as far as CDs are concerned. It wouldn't be a useful CD because it doesn't provide enough burst mitigation and, as a mean mitigation improvement, it's just weird since it doesn't have 100% uptime. It's also increasing both eHP and mean mitigation thanks to the healing and hp buff; it could just as easily reduce damage taken by 9% and accomplish the exact same thing.Quote:
Faith: Changed to level 40. Removed Regen. Increased recast time to 180s.
Increasing Parry value *to* a certain value instead of *by* a certain value is both weird and would diminish in value as gear progressed, since STR would increase but the comparative value of it with this buff would not. It's not a *major* concern; it's just *weird*.Quote:
Bonecrusher: Changed to level 50 and from a weaponskill to a mitigation buff. This is the Templar's panic button so to speak. For 15s it counters the damage from auto-attacks and adds an 80% Parrying Rate increase which bumps them to 100% Parrying Rate under Discipline. Their Parrying Strength will also be bumped up to a flat 65%. With this they will only suffer 25% damage of the target's special attacks (weaponskills, abilities, magic etc.) under Discipline. Since it's not as powerful as Hallowed Ground I made it have a recast of 5min.
You're doing it wrong. The class would need to have a multiplier to Defense, not straight up damage reduction, because the two scale differently: this would start off strong but, as gear progresses, they'd fall behind. On top of that, you're providing an *insane* increase to eHP thanks to the flat damage reduction. The changes needed for Berserker were an 80% buff to Def and mDef, a roughly 25% increase to eHP, and a ~20% reduction in required healing. Also, getting rid of the 15% speed increase that Greased Lightning provides reduces their enmity *and* damage even more than removing the 22.5% damage buff already does.Quote:
Berserk: Changed name to Instinct. Derped on MRD having Berserk already. Greased Lightning (per stack): Increased damage mitigation from 5% to 8%, decreased evasion bonus from 7% to 5%. Attacks that change form to Coeurl will also give an enmity boost.
It's for all of these reasons that I suggested ~30% increase to hp (to make up for relying upon evasion, it should be slightly stronger) as a passive benefit (which there *needs* to be), changing *only* the damage directly into evasion for 22.5% increase in mean mitigation at the cost of *only* 22.5% increase in damage (since we're not touching the attack speed), and adding the 80% increase to def and mdef so that those attributes scale properly.
I don't really see a reason to include this. It's a 5 minute panic button. Allow for Featherfoot would allow the play to elect to have either 95% evasion so that you're *almost* untouchable or layer the two together so that you are *completely* untouchable. Given how panic buttons tend to be used when absolutely everything else is down, it's a reasonable trade off and allows for some synergy and, most importantly, *reliability*, which is in short supply for an evasion tank but very important for tanking in general.Quote:
Featherfoot cannot be used while this buff is active and this buff will overwrite it.
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11-21-2013, 07:41 AMTzainI'm gonna toss out some fake numbers for comparison to white mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
Regen is 150 potency, Cure is 400, Cure II is 650, Cure III is...LOL@CureIII.
If Mira is a stacking HOT of 100 potency, 2 beats a Regen and 5 beats Cure I spam, 7 beats a cure II spam, but that *might* be overkill. (I'm assuming maim/mend trait is present on both, I'm also not including Cure III because it's currently useless.)
If you have a trigger spell that detonates the single target HOT stack into a Group heal, then a 3 stack = Medica spam and a 4 = Medica II spam (assuming you'd get 2 ticks of regen from the medica II effect). I might even suggest having the detonate spread HALF the consumed HoT stack to all other group members (rounded up) just to keep it somewhat balanced.
I wouldn't worry about matching power with a white mage. This mechanic is frankly able to blow them out of the water once the stack hits 4 or 5. The problem is that the Green Mage has to ramp up, which is exactly what you would expect. I'd also avoid giving them any shielding outside of cross class Eye for an Eye and Stone Skin. Shielding + regen is basically the healing holy grail, which is fine IF it takes 2 healers to pull it off. (See: Scholar/White Mage Synergy)
In fact, I think the burst detonation is utterly overkill. If anything, you're going to need burst at the START of the encounter. So you'd need ways to ramp up the stack. A 5 minute cooldown instant 5 stack for a single target would cover the need pretty nicely, adjust the cooldown as needed for balance and could be used in conjunction with the Group detonation. Of course, one well placed BLM Sleep would basically have the same effect as far as buying you time to get ramped up, so the cooldown isn't something that needs to be used EVERY pull. Once a tank realizes that the early part is THE most dangerous part, Mitigation cooldown usage should match up and work it all out.
A lack of Burst also adds some Green/white Synergy, Because if there is one thing a White Mage can do, it's burst some HP, so if Burst is the Green Mage weakness, the White Mage bringing Granite skin and Burst heals is a heck of a team.
Now mix that with some offensive debuffs to decrease the damage output of the enemy and some stance dancing for DOTs and you're gonna be one busy busy caster (in a good way). Which is why I mentioned going 1-30 HOT/DOT and 30-50 debuff for the class itself. Then sticking some of the advanced stuff (like the insta-stack) into the job.
If anything, you're going to need to fill slots rather than struggling to find enough places. And that's a really good place to be on a design.
Cheers. -
11-22-2013, 08:15 AMDuelle
Before I reply, some more notes:
- Up to 3 Green Mage marks can be stacked on one target. Be it the same or different marks.
- Convergence detonates the marks and affect only the marked target.
- Divergence detonates the marks and affect the marked target and all mobs/allies near it at half power.
- Effectively, if you're gonna burst heal the tank you'll be stacking up Mira to mitigate the damage the tank is taking, but if the tank gets crit or something else happens you can detonate your three stacks for a burst heal.
- Alfirk is in an odd spot because I do know healers need an instant heal as well as HoTs. My idea for it was originally a group heal that marks you primary target but heals everyone for a bit HP, then when detonated heals the group for even more HP. I chose to make it into a single-target heal that marks the target because then I remembered I gave AST Divergence.
- To ensure your 18-second duration marks don't fall off, you can use Stimulate to refresh their duration. Stimulate's heal effect would be minor even at max stacks.
- Asterism would be a shortcut to quickly stacking three marks. I did neglect to mention that a GRM's marks are affected by Asterism.
- Aside from healing output, I am concerned with how fast a GRM would be able to get their stuff set up. With healing aggro working the way it does, you can't even pre-HoT a tank before the pull because it'll mess up positioning as the tank tries to establish hate. This means a GRM would have to wait until after the pull in order to start setting things up, needing at least 8 seconds to ramp up their stacks on one target.
- I was thinking of changing Divergence into an ability that spreads marks to other mobs/allies (this would affect AST, TIM and GRM). Problem is that I think it would run into the Living Bomb problem of requiring a target limit in order to not be OP. Not to mention that since Convergence is single target, the GRM would have to target-swap like crazy to make sure they're getting the most out of their stacks.
So given the 3-stack limit, using only that one mark would put GRM behind a Cure 1-spamming WHM.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tzain
Agreed. Damage shields were the furthes thing from my mind when I was typing up my suggestion.Quote:
The problem is that the Green Mage has to ramp up, which is exactly what you would expect. I'd also avoid giving them any shielding outside of cross class Eye for an Eye and Stone Skin. Shielding + regen is basically the healing holy grail, which is fine IF it takes 2 healers to pull it off. (See: Scholar/White Mage Synergy)
I was using the reasoning behind how Wrath stacks work for WAR. You built up, maintain/hold on to stacks until you need them, then have to build up stacks when you use them up. The only difference is that a GRM can refresh their stacks at will. As far as for why GRM needs some burst, it's because they also need to be able to solo heal 4-man dungeons, and an entirely HoT-reliant healer wouldn't be able to do much. Even SCH has some direct heals (granted, they do come from Eos). WHM would still have the advantage of not needing ramp up to get their burst heals out, which I felt was a decent trade-off.Quote:
In fact, I think the burst detonation is utterly overkill. If anything, you're going to need burst at the START of the encounter.
I'm iffy on too much utility seeing that the current design doesn't have a lot of debuffs per se. Melee DPS's debuffs are situational for the most part. BLM has Sleep and Lethargy, SMN has Virus. In the case of AST/TIM/GRN, you have Dispel, Wezen (Bind) and Cujam (Aoe Stun).Quote:
Now mix that with some offensive debuffs to decrease the damage output of the enemy and some stance dancing for DOTs and you're gonna be one busy busy caster (in a good way). Which is why I mentioned going 1-30 HOT/DOT and 30-50 debuff for the class itself. Then sticking some of the advanced stuff (like the insta-stack) into the job.
It's not like the current classes have a ton of debuffs to go around, and I wanted to stay within those guidelines. -
11-22-2013, 09:38 AMToranjaYes, it is.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ineluki75