Re-rolling from Warrior, thoughts?

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Originally Posted by Zaiken

But you can't just dismissed that a Paladin have all this ability to his access. A good Tank know when to use his ability and when not to burn all of it in one shot. You can't just take 2 class to compare them without any of their ability to migrate damage as a Tank. The ability are there for a Paladin and not on a Warrior for a reason. It's not like once the Paladin use those ability it will be gone forever, it will just be on a cool down. The Paladin will always have access to it when the Warrior does not making the Paladin overall easier to heal and taking less damage overall. This is especially true with long Boss fight. For long Boss fight, Paladin will shine over a Warrior.

I have play 2 class Paladin and Warrior to 50, and I find Paladin Tank better for single boss fight and for long Boss battle then a Warrior.

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Except ... I can. And absolutely should, since the Paladin community does exactly the same thing to Warriors in order to call them inferior. With 90 - 180 second recast timers on those survivability cool-downs, you cannot guarantee 100% blanket coverage. Therefore, we must calculate for a 'worst case scenario' in which both Tanks have used their entire repertoire of cool-downs and are in limbo relying base survival values.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

You are correct. My mistake.
However, the Warrior in this situation of no external healing has Inner Beast, the Paladin has no such skill. There is also Storms Path. Again, the Paladin has no skill to get him into a safe zone that doesn't come with a long cool-down.
If you bring then, the cool-downs into play, both tanks are still standing.
Which just proves what I've been saying the whole time, the Warrior is not inferior, it is different. Both tanks are capable using their personal skill sets, survive the same damage.

To break it down further,
A Paladin will take less damage in spikes, There will be periods where he will get hit hard, and periods during Cool-downs that he will take minimal damage.
A Warrior takes fairly consistent damage, but recovers HP faster than the Paladin does.

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I think you're misinformed about Inner Beast and Storm's Path.

Inner Beast cannot be used unless you have 5 stacks of Wrath. You can use infuriate to instantly gain 5 stacks, but infuriate is on a 60s cooldown. To make the heals strong, you also need Berserk, which is on a 90s cooldown. Basically, Inner Beast is a cooldown.

Storm's Path healing requires a combo, so you can only heal yourself with it every 7.5 seconds. The heal, unfortunately, is less than a PLD casting Cure on themselves. The kicker is that you can cast Cure every 2.5s. And the final nail in the coffin is that Storm's Path costs 90 TP.... the combo is impossible to use continuously even in moderately timed boss fights.

As a healer, it is quite a bit easier to heal a PLD in the BC. However, it is by no means impossible to heal a Warrior (we've done the first two turns with one), it's just really scary considering the bosses are hitting said Warrior for nearly full damage often within a fairly short period of time. If your Warrior and healers are competent though, it can be done.

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Originally Posted by Ruminate

I think you're misinformed about Inner Beast and Storm's Path...

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Actually, without Berserk I usually heal about 1200 from Inner Beast from just my normal rotation buffs. With Berserk on, Maim buff, and the debuff from Storm's Eye on the enemy (which also builds stacks) I heal myself for around 2k HP (sometimes more.) In a tough spot I'll be blowing off 1-2 Inner Beasts per minute which can be anywhere from 1000 extra HP I healed to upwards of 4k HP in a minute, which I like to think helps the healer tremendously, all while keeping my stacks refreshed for his heals to get the buff. Not to mention Convalescence is a cross skill that works wonders on WAR (even without it being enhanced since Wrath increases heal % already, and scholar heals on a WAR are way more effective because the 25% bonus HP.)

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Except ... I can. And absolutely should, since the Paladin community does exactly the same thing to Warriors in order to call them inferior. With 90 - 180 second recast timers on those survivability cool-downs, you cannot guarantee 100% blanket coverage. Therefore, we must calculate for a 'worst case scenario' in which both Tanks have used their entire repertoire of cool-downs and are in limbo relying base survival values.

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You're only a level 30 Marauder and a level 16 Gladiator. I don't think you have yet to experiment all this class to it full potential yet. You should try getting both class to 50 and do End Game with it, because right now you just base your statistic on the class ability itself without even trying it out yourself.

Don't get me wrong, both class are capable of Tanking. But it easier to do on a Paladin and the survivability is better. Warrior have more HP but don't have as much damage migration skill as a Paladin. Paladin also have instant stun as well as silent while Warrior have stun only.

I don't think it matters which is the better tank guys, in every circumstance people will take a paladin over a warrior because it's safer, and that annoys me.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

Actually, without Berserk I usually heal about 1200 from Inner Beast from just my normal rotation buffs. With Berserk on, Maim buff, and the debuff from Storm's Eye on the enemy (which also builds stacks) I heal myself for around 2k HP (sometimes more.) In a tough spot I'll be blowing off 1-2 Inner Beasts per minute which can be anywhere from 1000 extra HP I healed to upwards of 4k HP in a minute, which I like to think helps the healer tremendously, all while keeping my stacks refreshed for his heals to get the buff. Not to mention Convalescence is a cross skill that works wonders on WAR (even without it being enhanced since Wrath increases heal % already, and scholar heals on a WAR are way more effective because the 25% bonus HP.)

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True or false: Inner Beast has no cooldown
Sylve believes Inner Beast has no cooldown.

As for Convalesence.... if you're implying that Convalescence helps WAR more because WAR has self-heals, thats wrong. Convalescence has no effect on WAR self-heals.

As for Scholar heals... that was already touched upon earlier in the thread.

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Originally Posted by Ruminate

True or false: Inner Beast has no cooldown
Sylve believes Inner Beast has no cooldown.

As for Convalesence.... if you're implying that Convalescence helps WAR more because WAR has self-heals, thats wrong. Convalescence has no effect on WAR self-heals.

As for Scholar heals... that was already touched upon earlier in the thread.

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Inner beast does not have a cooldown, but it requires stacks of wrath which are only granted upon using a combo ability, so for every 7.5 seconds you will generate 2 stacks of wrath. You also need 5 stacks to cast inner beast.

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Originally Posted by Sylve

Except ... I can. And absolutely should, since the Paladin community does exactly the same thing to Warriors in order to call them inferior. With 90 - 180 second recast timers on those survivability cool-downs, you cannot guarantee 100% blanket coverage. Therefore, we must calculate for a 'worst case scenario' in which both Tanks have used their entire repertoire of cool-downs and are in limbo relying base survival values.

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it's not about 100% coverage, it's about having timers when they're required

I play both classes, I would prefer to be a warrior, but if you're trying to progress in the actual endgame (coil) a warrior is sub-par

it's possible to bring paladin and a warrior for turns 1-3, it's probably doable to double warrior turn 1 (although the first half of the fight would be hellish on healers, or if you screwed up the stacks)

turn 4 though, I'm really doubtful that a warrior could tank two dreadnaughts - at least in their current state.

it's not that warriors don't have their own defensive CDs, it's that they pale in comparison to rampart and sentinel

when I know I'm taking big hits (1500s, sometimes double 1500s) from a mob, and then for my role I have to tank two of those (quad 1500s) rampart and sentinel will keep my 5700hp paladin alive, my 7400hp warrior can hope that they take the cooldown away from benediction, cause that's the amount of healing he would require to stay up

but early game content all the way through ilvl70 stuff (titan) warrior is just fine

edit: and what's all this about stun interrupts when people were talking about ADS

turn 1 ADS cannot be stunned, you can silence high voltage - that's it

turn 1 ADS uses attacks in a set rotation, so a monk can absolutely catch every single interrupt (aside from the first)

turn 2 ADS does not use a set rotation, so an interrupt rotation is preferred (1 bard 1 paladin, 2 bards, 2 paladins) again, stunning is not possible

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Originally Posted by Ruminate

True or false: Inner Beast has no cooldown
Sylve believes Inner Beast has no cooldown.

As for Convalesence.... if you're implying that Convalescence helps WAR more because WAR has self-heals, thats wrong. Convalescence has no effect on WAR self-heals.

As for Scholar heals... that was already touched upon earlier in the thread.

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I'm implying that it (Convalescence) helps more because WARs already get healed for more from Wrath stacks and the higher HP pools, so stacking on that goes further than with PLD. I'm not talking self heals; all outside heals. Inner Beast technically has no cooldown, and I've used it twice in a row on more than one occasion where the healer was either out of mp, dead from stupidity or a mistake, or just paralyzed.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

I'm implying that it (Convalescence) helps more because WARs already get healed for more from Wrath stacks and the higher HP pools, so stacking on that goes further than with PLD. I'm not talking self heals; all outside heals. Inner Beast technically has no cooldown, and I've used it twice in a row on more than one occasion where the healer was either out of mp, dead from stupidity or a mistake, or just paralyzed.

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20% damage reduction + 20% more healing gives better healing efficiency than 20% more healing + 15% more healing.
....and thats ignoring the fact that the PLD's version is actually 10% stronger.

If you cannot use it once every GCD, then it technically does have a cooldown. The cooldown is variable, but it still has a cooldown.
And using it twice in a row sounds great, except the PLD's cooldowns last longer than 2 GCDs.

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Originally Posted by Furious

Your healers are wrong. Paladins take significantly less base damage than warriors and have significantly more damage-reducing cooldowns than warriors. For warriors to begin to approach paladins, they need either more mitigation or they need an increase to healing received (which is still a less desirable mechanic to reducing incoming damage).

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So they are wrong about the amount of spells they use? I question your intelligence due to your comment. Also pre coil warriors self heals all but bridge the gap in mitigation. Of course you probably ignored the part of my last post saying everything but coil, but it's normal for people to read half a post and instantly reply even though you are going to be incorrect due to being ignorant about the full point of the post.

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Originally Posted by Ruminate

20% damage reduction + 20% more healing gives better healing efficiency than 20% more healing + 15% more healing.
....and thats ignoring the fact that the PLD's version is actually 10% stronger.

If you cannot use it once every GCD, then it technically does have a cooldown. The cooldown is variable, but it still has a cooldown.
And using it twice in a row sounds great, except the PLD's cooldowns last longer than 2 GCDs.

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You say it like PLD has static 20% more damage resist which isn't true at all. WAR also has damage mit abilities, that albeit aren't AS good, but they fill in that gap between 20%. Parry rates and amount of damage negated from parry are also much higher with WAR because my strength and VIT are both very, very high. PLD STR is kind of useless and they basically have wasted points in Piety. All this + the huge amounts healed from inner beast all add up to damage mitigation equaling out between the two, or even being in WAR's favor with scholars and stoneskin happy WHM.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

You say it like PLD has static 20% more damage resist which isn't true at all.

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Wait, stop right there. Do you know what Shield Oath is?

If what you guys are saying is right it just sounds like people are just getting bad Warrior tanks, it's also possible to prevent damage if you know boss tactics using buffs like Foresight, then heal it back up using inner beast.

To OP,

I would suggest rolling Paladin, the AF armor can be used by both War and PLD so once any relevant fixes for WAR are in, you can pick the war back up and not have to do a lot more to gear him.

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Originally Posted by Ruminate

Wait, stop right there. Do you know what Shield Oath is?

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Basically defiance, but mit instead of HP and 5% less; cancels out if you do sword oath. It's still a dynamic activate

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Originally Posted by Azostar

If what you guys are saying is right it just sounds like people are just getting bad Warrior tanks, it's also possible to prevent damage if you know boss tactics using buffs like Foresight, then heal it back up using inner beast.

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I wouldn't say this is incorrect but there is more to it, while WAR isn't impossible for endgame content, it can certainly use a buff to bring it on par with PLD. If someone messes up whether it be healers or the tank itself (or DD in some fights), it's a bit more punishing for WAR.

There is a lot less room for error.

I have leveled and geared War, Pld, and Brd to 50 since launch.

If endgame is your goal :

Tank : PLD hands down, WAR is just unwanted and far less viable as a tank.

DPS : BRD, DRG, BLM (possibly SMN). There are a million DRG's and BRD's though so I would suggest one of the dps casters.

Healer : Both are needed and viable, choose whichever appeals to you the most.

Those are pretty much the best options. My choice for 8 man min/max raid group comp at this point : PLDx2, BRDx2, BLM(or SMN), DRG, WHM, SCH.

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Originally Posted by Blazn

Also pre coil

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see that's the thing

pre coil they're fine, the only fight with a notable difference pre-coil would be titan hard, his mountain busters require a little more work from healers when using a warrior instead of a paladin

but you've still got an inner beast ready for every single one, so the gap isn't that wide

the problem is when you realize the game doesn't end at titan hard.

people predicted this when looking at paladin and warrior skill sets - warriors are good, possibly better for easy content

paladins are better for progression

to any player with aspirations of raiding, that means you play paladin

to any player that doesn't want to see coil before they start nerfing the early parts in patch 2.2, that means play warrior

Paladin is one of the most boring, easy, face roll tanks to ever exist in a video game, and the 2nd easiest class in this game. Do not reroll, you will probably HATE paladin.

I think it might be a good idea for OP to try rolling another role (I strongly recommend White Mage because you'll be able to go to dungeons as a Healer from low level) so that you'll see things from another point of view and understand better why many people prefer Paladin to Warrior when it comes to tanking.

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Originally Posted by Shiyo

Paladin is one of the most boring, easy, face roll tanks to ever exist in a video game, and the 2nd easiest class in this game. Do not reroll, you will probably HATE paladin.

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lol that what happen to my Friend when he roll Paladin and got to 50 and change to Warrior instead. Paladin is very easy to Tank versus Warrior. Warrior is harder to Tank, have to rely on different skills more to Tank instead of face roll like Paladin. Warrior is more exciting to Tank versus a Paladin.

I think everyone has it backwards. Its not that War is bad or too complex. The problem is that Pld is too faceroll. Pld needs to be brought down to War level not the other way around. The proof is from the fact that WE ARE NOT SUPPOSED TO BE ABLE TO DO COIL RIGHT NOW. Pld being able to do coil easily while being undergeared for the dung just proves the class needs to be brought down. War is in a good place when it comes to complexity and progression. This is coming from a Pld main btw. Pld is so boring I am probably going to level something else. I know I'll get hate cause people want path of least resistance and the ability to farm Coil before they are supposed to.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

Basically defiance, but mit instead of HP and 5% less; cancels out if you do sword oath. It's still a dynamic activate

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You are an idiot. Shield Oath is a static buff that is up 100% of the time and reduces all damage by 20%, 100% of the time.

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Originally Posted by Eclipsed

You are an idiot. Shield Oath is a static buff that is up 100% of the time and reduces all damage by 20%, 100% of the time.

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It isn't, the same way Defiance isn't. It's a buff that stays active until disabled by something, but you still have to activate it.

Hallowed ground

/endthread

SPOILER: Turn4 with a warrior in the group: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nukLMcgfc8U /SPOILER

So just stop complaining or L2P or whatever, its getting me sick of those "the class needs buff" threads popping up..after a month and when most of u aren´t even at endgame and just assume stuff.

Warrior gets more HP and SELF HEAL and some CDs even if hes taking "bigger" hits, its nearly the same for healers overall.
Warrior has no silence, yes thats the only rly weak spot but again as i said getting more dmg out on bosses is a real +++ in that case.
Warrior do just fine in Coils (if u got DL anyways)

SPOILER
Our Warrior is MAINTANKING Turn1 the first Boss till its splitting
Our Warrior is MAINTANKING Turn2 the 2nd Boss - (u need to switch from time to time though debuff)
Our Warrior is MAINTANKING adds on Turn4 (i take only one soldier/knight)
Turn5 does also OK and again - more DMG which u need.
/SPOILER

In all these talks, you left out 1 class with a silence. Scholar has a 1s silence on a 40s cooldown as well with Selene, which I would think was the preferable fairy for endgame anyway, due to the 30% skill and spell speed increase.

IMO as a Paladin, I think they should buff PLD even more for tanking so that it is THE tank in the game, and buff war to be a better DD with high HP so they can be an outstanding off tank when necessary. As it stands now, PLD is a pretty good tank, could use a little more HP, and WAR seems to be kind of a "rigged" tank, ie. they can tank but not really designed to do it, kinda like Ninja in FFXI. (ya I went there, I hated what they turned NIN into, exploiting shadows and then calling themselves a tank, I loved nothing better than seeing a Nin get out of sync with shadows and then getting 1-2 shotted to death since they were so squishy, call me a hater, but it just shouldn't have been a tank roll IMO)

But to the OP, try PLD, I'm really enjoying it. I roll with my wife who is WHM so we have a lot of fun running dungeons etc. together. Good teamwork is important regardless of class.

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Originally Posted by nimrod

SPOILER: Turn4 with a warrior in the group: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nukLMcgfc8U /SPOILER

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you're actually maintanking turn 4

"adds" aren't the main source of damage there, that first dreadnought with 4 stacks is, and then the double dreadnought

I don't think anyone was arguing that coil isn't possible with 1 war 1 pld, it's the 2x war vs 2x pld you should be looking at

things are -much- easier with 2 paladins when compared to 2 warriors, but yeah 1 war can work - they just don't tank the harder hitting mobs

the warrior is the OT in your video, he grabs the little guys, the paladin grabs the hard hitting things

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Originally Posted by Vmage

SNIP

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Well knight and soldier with 2 adds are also "hard" hitting in that regards.
Sure PLD tanks at that video the dreadnauts, the Warrior put way more DPS out in those phases as an offTank as PLD could do. I can´t judge about 2 PLDs, guess its not really easier cause u have the dmg loss from having 2 of them in.
I guess "undergeared" it will be sure easier to manage the first two turns, but with "decent" gear for that instance its easy to roll both a PLD and a Warrior. My argument was about rolling a Warrior is also good... some ppl are saying warrior would be trash and thats not the case at all in the moment for endgame or even before that warriors can Solo tank everything plds can if played right.

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Originally Posted by Azostar

Thanks for the discussion guys, decided to level PLD after all, for the current better tanking, and it will also benefit warrior tank. Will probably level up MNK at some point too for the skills but that'll be a while off.

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Excellent idea. I think it is good to have both tanks (will resume soon leveling warrior), as this is an mmo after all and I'm sure each will get visited in turn by the buff stick and nerf bat and will each have their own turn as flavour of the month.

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Originally Posted by Blazn

Done everything but coil and i have 0 issues tanking or getting in groups. While my damage taken is greater than a paladins most my healers agree they aren't healing that much mmore than a paladin, warriors require much more skill and timing of CD's to get the job done though. Also Yoshi is hinting at buffs for the warrior in 2.1

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Coil is where it makes a difference so doing everything but Coil means nothing when talking about Coil.

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Originally Posted by Eclipsed

I have leveled and geared War, Pld, and Brd to 50 since launch.

If endgame is your goal :

Tank : PLD hands down, WAR is just unwanted and far less viable as a tank.

DPS : BRD, DRG, BLM (possibly SMN). There are a million DRG's and BRD's though so I would suggest one of the dps casters.

Healer : Both are needed and viable, choose whichever appeals to you the most.

Those are pretty much the best options. My choice for 8 man min/max raid group comp at this point : PLDx2, BRDx2, BLM(or SMN), DRG, WHM, SCH.

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Most groups don't want melee DPS. Dragoons and Monks are left in the cold.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

It isn't, the same way Defiance isn't. It's a buff that stays active until disabled by something, but you still have to activate it.

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You have been wrong about almost everything you've posted in this thread.

20% damage reduction is a far more effective skill than 25% more HP with a variable 15% increased healing.

20% reduction works, effectively, as 25% more HP and 25% increased healing received. Under ideal circumstances it will take 8.6% more healing to heal a warrior to full health (i.e. sitting on 5 stacks of wrath) than it will take for a PLD.

Once you add convalescence into the mix for both WAR and PLD, it changes dramatically. Under convalesence a PLD will require a whopping 20% less healing to top off because the effective increased healing from shield oath and the convalesence buff stack multiplicatively rather than additively.

Aside from that, your numbers for Inner Beast sound like nonsense.

Folks need to remember that CoB is not a very good measurement of class performance as there is an entire raid-tier missing from the game. CoB is not balanced for characters wearing ilvl 70 gear. Maybe once people start getting full sets of AF2 we can make a better assessment.

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Originally Posted by Appleh4x

I'm implying that it (Convalescence) helps more because WARs already get healed for more from Wrath stacks and the higher HP pools, so stacking on that goes further than with PLD. I'm not talking self heals; all outside heals. Inner Beast technically has no cooldown, and I've used it twice in a row on more than one occasion where the healer was either out of mp, dead from stupidity or a mistake, or just paralyzed.

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And PLDs being healed get more effective health per point of heal because they have more passive defense, meaning that the gain from convalescence is equally multiplicative. In fact, I'm not even sure that the healing bonus from convalescence IS multiplicative with warrior healing received, while it definitely is with pld defenses. Also, since it is a paladin ability after all, and paladins get improved convalescence, we get 30% healing from it where warriors get 20%.

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Originally Posted by oda

Folks need to remember that CoB is not a very good measurement of class performance as there is an entire raid-tier missing from the game. CoB is not balanced for characters wearing ilvl 70 gear. Maybe once people start getting full sets of AF2 we can make a better assessment.

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This is irrelevant; what people are supposed to be doing has no bearing on what people CAN do. When you are pushing hard content, you don't compare classes as they "should" be when the content is less hard. PLD tanks are better when content is hard; they take less damge and more effective healing, and have better cooldowns. The only, ONLY circumstance where you WANT to take a warrior over a pld right now is if damage, and more specifically aoe damage, is the factor in winning the fight. Yes, it can be done with warrior to a point; that is not the discussion at hand. In terms of competitive play, the balance point that matters is what people can do, not what they should be doing.

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Originally Posted by oda

Folks need to remember that CoB is not a very good measurement of class performance as there is an entire raid-tier missing from the game. CoB is not balanced for characters wearing ilvl 70 gear. Maybe once people start getting full sets of AF2 we can make a better assessment.

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So, let me get this straight.

PLD can main tank pretty much everything in ilvl 70 gear without much trouble (with the exception of Turn 5, but even then).
All the DPS can hit the DPS threshold requirements to kill bosses in ilvl 70 gear.
The healers can do enough healing to easily handle incidental raid damage and keep up the MT (when it's a PLD).

But, we should wait till ilvl 80 gear comes because then it will that might make WAR more viable?

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Originally Posted by neizero

Pld are way easier to heal and they have better cd's. Just suck it up and play pld for now until they fix war. You can MT titan as war just fine btw, but in coil you are really making life dificult for the group.

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This attitude is everything that's wrong with this community...

"It's too hard with WAR pout, pout. So sad it's not even funny. I don't get this mentality with gamers nowadays that, if it isn't easy, it's not worth their time.

I'm sure it's very possible with WAR, just takes a different strategy or maybe more thinking, (I know, I know, booo to thinking!).