Melee roles are being gimped in this game

Name me one game where Melee isn't screwed over because Ranged.

Also, killed Titan HM with 4 melee and 1 ranged. Problem?

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Originally Posted by Jarinolde

Name me one game where Melee isn't screwed over because Ranged.

Also, killed Titan HM with 4 melee and 1 ranged. Problem?

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A couple of points. First, just because it's like that in most MMOs doesn't mean it should be like that in XIV. That's a pretty terrible argument.

Second, nobody said it's impossible to do endgame content with melee. The point here is melee kind of get the shaft when it comes to AoEs, having to be positioned properly, etc. where as ranged can just sit in the corner with much less chance for taking damage while putting up comparable numbers. Oh, and to top it off, they usually have more utility than melee and benefit the party more overall. So there's really not much incentive to take melee DPS unless 1) you need mantra or 2) you need disembowel to buff up the DPS of the 2-3 BRD dps you most likely have.

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Originally Posted by Stormsoul

this is how it is in every mmo, ranged is always more convenient/easier. : /

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That rather depends upon what you are referring to, sure in terms of avoiding AOE/cleave then melee generally requires more work / is harder.

On the other hand that is offset in many games I've played by the fact many range classes are more complex to play, e.g - warrior in GW2 is faceroll compared to engineer, warrior in Rift was faceroll compare to mage, champ in LOTRO is faceroll compared to Loremaster, etc (granted there are rare exceptions of complex melee class like Burglar in LOTRO, but as I said they are rare), to the point in some cases (like Loremaster) where the player is far busier and needs far more awareness than a typical melee class, of course there is usually one range class that is also faceroll, normally the class wielding the bow.

To me this game is unusual, in that lancer/dragoon and especially pugilist/monk seem to be more complex than archer/bard, thurm/BLM, etc.

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Originally Posted by Conkers

To me this game is unusual, in that lancer/dragoon and especially pugilist/monk seem to be more complex than archer/bard, thurm/BLM, etc.

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I hope they don't take this approach and "dumb down" playing as melee. It's fun and it's challenging and that's how it should stay. All I think any melee here is asking for is a reason for groups to need melee aside from just the LB.

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Originally Posted by MalcolmReynolds

A couple of points. First, just because it's like that in most MMOs doesn't mean it should be like that in XIV. That's a pretty terrible argument.

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The same thing is said in every game ever "it shouldn't be like that" but nothing ever changes.

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Originally Posted by Conkers

To me this game is unusual, in that lancer/dragoon and especially pugilist/monk seem to be more complex than archer/bard, thurm/BLM, etc.

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Weird, because while learning an optimal MNK rotation took some time, it sure wasn't hard for me by any stretch. Nor is it terribly difficult in execution, even on an actually hard fight like Titan HM.

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Originally Posted by Jarinolde

Name me one game where Melee isn't screwed over because Ranged.

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Aion, TERA, WoW, Age of Conan, SWG, EverQuest, EverQuest 2, should I continue?

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Originally Posted by tort

WoW

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I can't say anything about the other games, but this is hands down not true. There are a reasons raids (10 mans, anyway) don't want to bring a lot, if any melee along.

The issue is in a lot of MMOs ranged can do everything melee can, but melee can't do everything a ranged can.

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Originally Posted by Jarinolde

The same thing is said in every game ever "it shouldn't be like that" but nothing ever changes.

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I'm waiting for your point. That's still a terrible argument. "Oh, it hasn't been fixed before so let's just leave it broken."

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Originally Posted by Korvaene

Another problem, don't know if this is the case for NA on NA servers, but I'm an NA player that ended up on a JP legacy server. The latency/de-sync is so bad that you have to watch for the red, and as soon as it pops up you have to MOVE. Even if you're out of the red before the red disappears and the enemy's ability fires, you're going to get hit if you don't move as soon as you see red.

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This!

SE put off-line FPS 'twitch' mechanics into an on-line game where the majority of their players do not live within 5 internet hops of the servers.

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Originally Posted by Jarinolde

Weird, because while learning an optimal MNK rotation took some time, it sure wasn't hard for me by any stretch. Nor is it terribly difficult in execution, even on an actually hard fight like Titan HM.

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From what I can tell, all classes are relatively simplistic in this game, I merely meant in relation to the rest of the DPS classes, monk seems to be the most demanding.

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Originally Posted by MalcolmReynolds

I hope they don't take this approach and "dumb down" playing as melee. It's fun and it's challenging and that's how it should stay. All I think any melee here is asking for is a reason for groups to need melee aside from just the LB.

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In a nutshell, this.

I love PLAYING Dragoon at the moment, love the rotations needed and love the way it fights. I'm just disappointed with the fact that despite the challenge for getting the combos/rotations/positioning right, a Bard that spams a few buttons and stands still, still has more DPS than us with a way easier time doing it.

Minus personal preference, I literally do not see a logical reason to bring a melee DPS over a ranged DPS. I could even argue that the melee LB damage can be offset by a mage LB + better DPS from a ranged DPS. Or, if a boss has a mechanic that more than X sources of rDPS wipes the group.

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Originally Posted by Jarinolde

Name me one game where Melee isn't screwed over because Ranged.

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Originally Posted by tort

Aion, TERA, WoW, Age of Conan, SWG, EverQuest, EverQuest 2, should I continue?

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Melee is always screwed over when archery or magic (Cleric/Wizard) can out-DPS them at the same level and stand back watching the fireworks. In all games. Only when the game is action-based (eg Wizardry Online, Vindictus, Mabinogi) do numbers tend to fall in melee's favor, because the monsters will move out of the way. Or they would if the tank doesn't pin them.

On the flip side, SE combined the best aspects of "push X to win" and action games, by making it so you do have to get out of the way of potentially-fatal AOE attacks, and can't just spam macros for everything. There is some actual difficulty involved. Likewise FFXIV is a bit more forgiving about lag than action games (everything you send, does get there), assuming you don't get disconnected.

Most of AoE in this game like titan both hit melee and range.

Not mention melee have higher hp, def than range. DRG with just AF can already survive titan bomb while BRD have to farm their DL set to stay alive.

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Originally Posted by Sterob

Most of AoE in this game like titan both hit melee and range.

Not mention melee have higher hp, def than range. DRG with just AF can already survive titan bomb while BRD have to farm their DL set to stay alive.

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Titan is really one of the few fights, that is equally annoying to Melee and Range DD's.

We also have less Magic Defense than Caster and as a Monk i have about the same HP and Defense as an Bard. The additional Armor of an Dragoon isnt really that useful because most attacks, that make Melee's life hard are magic attacks (from what i heard/have seen).

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Originally Posted by Usotsuki

Titan is really one of the few fights, that is equally annoying to Melee and Range DD's

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Bard can continue to attack while dodging, doesn't have to chase down people who get trapped in rocks, doesn't have to worry about Titan constantly spinning, and can continue to attack when rocks appear. Bull**** that it's equally annoying as a melee.

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Originally Posted by CHunterX

Bard can continue to attack while dodging, doesn't have to chase down people who get trapped in rocks, doesn't have to worry about Titan constantly spinning, and can continue to attack when rocks appear. Bull**** that it's equally annoying as a melee.

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I personally don't mind Titan that much, even so i am totally sick of wiping on this unspectacular/boring encounter. I am not commenting on how broken Bard's are atm though :p

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Originally Posted by Usotsuki

I personally don't mind Titan that much, even so i am totally sick of wiping on this unspectacular/boring encounter. I am not commenting on how broken Bard's are atm though :p

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I actually find the Titan fight fairly manageable as a melee. I mean, Bards still get pretty much 100% uptime on the boss, but I don't feel melee falling that far behind. From what I've been reading up on coil though, those fights seem to be the ones causing problems =/

Maybe part of the issue isn't just that melees are broken because we can't DPS, but Bards are broken for being able to DPS the entire time. Lol. Food for thought.

BRD brings great utility ontop of their good DPS, other DPS need to bring the same or have access to greater or more cooldowns to balance it out.

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Originally Posted by Veis

Melee don't have to dodge plumes on titan unless some of the range die.

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Why do I have to dodge them then, as a melee, with everyone alive (and at least 5 ranged dudes in party)?

Anyway, if ranged has the same DPS as melee, the game is badly balanced, on account of ranged = easier mode. If ranged DPS is higher it's just lol....unless ranged is somekind of ubersquishy that even regular mobs kill when they look at it (which isn't rly the case here).

Oh and the dude saying dragoon armor is so much better than bards...go check the stats on darklight yo. And pay attention to magic defence. Then think how many of the attacks bosses do are magical. Then think hard why melee has less defence of any kind on armor than ranged dude. Or why monk has the same defence on armor as bard...must be coz it's compensated by their melee+higher DPs...o wait.

SMN and BLM have their damage reduced by dodging AoE as well, because they are stuck with only a couple instant-cast spells when on the move. The only problem there would be if the number of boss-centered ones greatly outnumbers lines, cones, and ranged ones.

Bard is just better than everyone because they're ranged and everything is instant.

Honestly i do not mind the positional requirments or the fact that we have to stop dpsing every few seconds to dodge something.

But i am getting pissed off at the fact that even if i clearly dodge something i get hit and get blamed for it. Now that annoys the crap out of me.

Great example of how much fun being a melee in coil is when the instance is even little bit laggy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLUS6S24vU8

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Originally Posted by Tsukino

SMN and BLM have their damage reduced by dodging AoE as well, because they are stuck with only a couple instant-cast spells when on the move. The only problem there would be if the number of boss-centered ones greatly outnumbers lines, cones, and ranged ones.

Bard is just better than everyone because they're ranged and everything is instant.

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If you manage to not stay on top as SMN or BLM even though you have to dodge mechanics you're doing something wrong.

I'm actually heartened by these threads because I've been telling my FC peeps the same and they haven't been listening. This isn't qqing. There a legit balance issue going on and people's dismissiveness about it is really just depressing.

I would prefer slight nerfs to range classes before they up melee damage which could make some content too easy.

They should start small by increasing the tp cost of all bard attacks. Then they would actually have to play their songs and not be the easiest class in mmo history.

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Originally Posted by LordMaitreya

I would prefer slight nerfs to range classes before they up melee damage which could make some content too easy.

They should start small by increasing the tp cost of all bard attacks. Then they would actually have to play their songs and not be the easiest class in mmo history.

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Not really... brds and eventual rangers should suffer simliar to other games. Moving will lower acc/damage, and standing still will raise it back to normal, etc.

Most mages are fine, one or two boss fights do not change the game. Cast time and interrupts are their bane.

There is an issue with twitch mechanics though. The fact that a single mechanic will wipe a player will of course favor range.

What's the use of a slight higher HP and tougher armor, more healing abilities when you're both going to die straight up.

Of course melees don't roll vit, so who knows, maybe it'll sort itself out.

ARR developers always had a problem with math. That's why mathematically speaking the battle system is down right simple. If they had put down a more robust equation system, there would be a lot more options on the table.

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Originally Posted by cfStatic

Trion Worlds(RIFT) had a really great philosophy about melee vs. ranged dps. It was that because melee are subject to all sorts of things, and generally speaking they're the less 'safe' option, their dps, on average, would always be 10% higher than that of ranged.

As a DPS player, I'm there to kill things as fast as possible while putting the least amount of stress I can on my raid. I love melee DPS, but if this continues on I'd be really tempted to roll a BRD.

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Good philosophy, but one of the reasons I left that game was because they couldn't EVER get it right. xD well they did have a good LFD system

I'll throw in my own experiences. I have been on the fence for the most part as to whether to do Drg or Brd down the road and so I levelled both Lnc and Arc just to see play style. I did 5 fates on each at the same level, the same areas, same fates. On Lnc I averaged 2k exp per fate. I was running like a madman and could not really get anything done. On Arc I was doing 5K+ per fate and didn't have to budge to actually do any of my damage. Even in dungeons the Lnc had to be positioned for certain strikes and had to run. Arc I just had to stand there clean away from the red stuff. All in all it is rather ridiculous to not be ranged with all of this going on.

you need to tag many monsters as possible in a fate run, then you will get gold. its not that hard. problem is endgame and partys. there is no end game solo contend you need partys for gear and progress.

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Originally Posted by Itseotle

Good philosophy, but one of the reasons I left that game was because they couldn't EVER get it right. xD well they did have a good LFD system

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They got it pretty spot on with their expansions launch and have done a pretty good job since (probably because they fired the two of clueless class leads), pre expansion your right it was a constant yo-yo.

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Originally Posted by Jarinolde

Name me one game where Melee isn't screwed over because Ranged.

Also, killed Titan HM with 4 melee and 1 ranged. Problem?

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The Secret World. Melee dps is king :)

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Originally Posted by Tribunus

They got it pretty spot on with their expansions launch and have done a pretty good job since (probably because they fired the two of clueless class leads), pre expansion your right it was a constant yo-yo.

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Please tell me one of those was the Cleric lead

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Originally Posted by Ayvar

Please tell me one of those was the Cleric lead

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Yes the Cleric and Warrior class leads went, Mage and Cleric is now under one class lead and the same with Rogue and Warrior. Bit off topic but you asked so i'll answer. ^^

Why melee aren't gimped from dodging aoes:

Dragoons can throw lance
Warriors can throw tomahawk
Paladin can throw shield

all while running one way or the other.
dragoon is set up with flanking attack bonus from the side of a boss, so shouldn't have to move much to begin with and so on.

that leaves monk.. one class... not CLASSES unless its gets an ability later i don't know about yet.

Ranged may be blessed with not having to run around, but they are also stuck in place half the time, having to clip a cast to dodge gimps them too. Saw a Conj and Mage get Raped by Titan in story mode, seemed like they were stuck finishing a heal/attack spell and thought they had more time..

I think ranged have it worse in those cases. Not just the cones but the area wide explosions, frontal infinite range beams. Lot less dodging for me as a dragoon than those guys got imo.

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Originally Posted by RagnarokZetsubou

Why melee aren't gimped from dodging aoes:

Dragoons can throw lance
Warriors can throw tomahawk
Paladin can throw shield

all while running one way or the other.

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Yeah...let me just spam my 130 TP 120 potency shitty ranged attack to keep up with that ranged DPS. Why didn't I or anyone else think of that? Maybe because it's impractical as all hell?

May work for you as a level 34 but that shit doesn't fly later. (also, this thread is about melee DPS, not tanks. Their DPS doesn't matter unless they're having trouble holding aggro)

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Originally Posted by RagnarokZetsubou

Why melee aren't gimped from dodging aoes:

Dragoons can throw lance
Warriors can throw tomahawk
Paladin can throw shield

all while running one way or the other.
dragoon is set up with flanking attack bonus from the side of a boss, so shouldn't have to move much to begin with and so on.

that leaves monk.. one class... not CLASSES unless its gets an ability later i don't know about yet.

Ranged may be blessed with not having to run around, but they are also stuck in place half the time, having to clip a cast to dodge gimps them too. Saw a Conj and Mage get Raped by Titan in story mode, seemed like they were stuck finishing a heal/attack spell and thought they had more time..

I think ranged have it worse in those cases. Not just the cones but the area wide explosions, frontal infinite range beams. Lot less dodging for me as a dragoon than those guys got imo.

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You have to be kidding...

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Originally Posted by RagnarokZetsubou

Why melee aren't gimped from dodging aoes:

Dragoons can throw lance
Warriors can throw tomahawk
Paladin can throw shield

all while running one way or the other.
dragoon is set up with flanking attack bonus from the side of a boss, so shouldn't have to move much to begin with and so on.

that leaves monk.. one class... not CLASSES unless its gets an ability later i don't know about yet.

Ranged may be blessed with not having to run around, but they are also stuck in place half the time, having to clip a cast to dodge gimps them too. Saw a Conj and Mage get Raped by Titan in story mode, seemed like they were stuck finishing a heal/attack spell and thought they had more time..

I think ranged have it worse in those cases. Not just the cones but the area wide explosions, frontal infinite range beams. Lot less dodging for me as a dragoon than those guys got imo.

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Please get to level 50 before making such a silly statement.

I'm one for buffing melee DPS damage/reducing our cooldowns for some skills or gimping BRD damage/buffs. It's almost ridiculous that they get BfB without really needing to worry about the weakness(damage taken increased) that comes about for balancing.

glad am not the only one feeling, like this.

I have done most of the game content apart from coil, and as i farm/grind and do more end game content I am always questioning myself whether i should reroll into another class!

Don't get my wrong I love playing my dragoon, i love the combos and using a good rotation, but I feel more and more that groups will not want a melee DPS at end game as other classes are preferred.

The only reason you would want a dragoon/monk is for a single target dps lb.

And a very select debuffs that help other clases. e.g disinbowel

Both our stuns are on long cool downs. combo chains need positioning for max dps. Some bosses do not allow the position or make positioning difficult.

I won't lie - i am a bit envious of the ranged classes, i cant understand how they can find it harder then the melee or not understand our plea.

Here's some simple suggestions for Monk that I believe will really help the class shine in endgame fights better:

Speed up all animations.
Change cross-class skills selection from Marauder to Archer. Monk is not a tank. Change should carry over to Dragoon as well.

Greased Lightning: Duration stays the same, but when you lose Greased Lightning, it drops down one stack (Greased Lightning III wears off and becomes Greased Lightning II).
Enhanced Featherfoot: In addition to evasion rate increase, freezes duration of Greased Lightning for its duration (makes it useful for parties/AoE situations)
Fists of Wind: Increase movement speed bonus (it's hardly a noticeable change currently), add "Additional Effect: Doubles duration of Greased Lightning stacks acquired after activating Fists of Wind" (Useful for fights like Garuda/Titan).

(continued below...)

Other changes to make Monk stronger in multiple-target situations:

True Strike: Change its positional bonus to "Slow +20%, Duration 12 seconds" or "Increases Critical Hit Rate 10%, Duration 12 seconds" (basically a positional Straight Shot, if cross-class skills are changed to Archer, stick with the Slow +20%).
Haymaker: Add/Change additional effect of/to Blind (depends on True Strike change), Increase Potency to 200 (should be a very powerful solo tool with a name like Haymaker).
Shoulder Tackle: Remove distance requirement, change additional effect to Heavy. Reduce Recast to 20 seconds. (Helps us keep up with loose adds).
Arm of the Destroyer: Increase Potency to 90-ish, reduce TP cost to 100
Howling Fist: Reduce recast to 20 seconds or add a TP cost and toss it on GCD, as it's currently a "poor-man's Doom Spike."
New "Hadoken-like" skill: Chakra Blast (120 potency, 110 TP, GCD)