Removing elemental nukes from WHM

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Originally Posted by schism

I'd be all for that campaign lol. But yes we do have some left-over's.

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You know that sarcasm thing we talked about before?

This has been debated to death in previous similar topics, but just to reason why WHM should have access to Elemental spells I'll bite.

1. White Mage stems from Conjurer and Gladiator. But while it has access to to skills from both these classes, the only skills that people like to say they don't deserve are their only damage-dealing, CNJ-based spells. White Mage IS a specialized Conjurer...so it stands to reason that it should retain CNJ spells.

2. The in-game lore does support CNJ keeping the life giving and protective elements. Sure, wind can be a Tornado but it is also the breath of life...Earthquakes topple buildings, but the earth also blesses us with life-giving food. Even the guild being located in Gridania, makes sense...hippy town:-) Again, CNJ being the main class required to unlock a healing job makes sense.

3. Even if CNJ-WHM didn't have the dd spells, most of its buffs are forms of the Aero-water-stone spell sets....even if enhancing magic is their main modifier.

4. At the end of the day, most people who complain about this do so because they want a blm who can cast all the elements. Even if SE switched the abilities and spells allowing this, the reality is, that with the way the current action bar is setup, you could not set all the spells from all the elements anyway. Also, the current setup is fairly balanced.... giving one job all the elemental magic would not only make the mages unbalanced amongst themselves but blm would OP the other party roles.

5. The reason light-dark magic and abilities were removed was to set them aside for later jobs. More than likely, THM will spawn a job that gets to use them again...but that is well in the future. Nonetheless, SE has to keep those spells and abilities out of the game for now so they can be added later when that job arrives.

6. We are only mid-level when it comes to our character development. Sure cap is 50 now, but the game is not being designed around 50 being level cap forever. Therefore, you are missing a lot of jobs and abilities you might gain later. Who's to say that in order to level post 50 we won't need to do quests etc to unlock it? Maybe a level 75 blm does learn water, Aero, and stone by studying with the CNJ guild and unlocking those spells in a quest....or maybe THM does get some umbral spells...they are just post level 50.

If anything, Water should be the only element Black Mages should never receive in FFXIV. Water in the lore is synonymous with healing and protection - as devout practitioners of havoc, Black Mages should feel mental pressure for even thinking about using Water to function as an offensive ability.

I really don't see a reason to remove elemental nukes from this iteration of a White Mage, especially given their lore background in conjunction with conjurers. Black Mages focus on the ethereal elements while White Mages focus on the foundation elements - you can't build or provide aid with fire, lightning or ice.

The main problem here isn't the fact that Black Mage has only three elements to control - it's the fact that in those three elements, frequently used spells aren't common. The only real offensively damaging spell from the ice element was Freeze - the rest were cast into being debuff-centric. Yes, it would be an issue about that, seeing as there was no class that functioned as debuffs and dots.

But we're getting arcanist. A class that has been emphasised on debuffing and dots. Who knows, maybe all those debuffs will be removed, and in place, offensive levels of spells will increase. We saw that already with CNJ if you paid attention in the alpha videos - Stone lost the magic evasion down debuff, but it's the hardest hitting spell out of Stone, Aero and Water.

Right now we don't know how having arcanist will change things regarding the magic side of combat. Even without it, I see no plausible reason for the removal of elements from the CNJ/WHM's branch of abilities, considering the lore, as the branch has always been shown as a practitioner of the worship of elementals, which are spiritual manifestations of ELEMENTS. They aren't practitioners of the divine - there is no cause for divine intervention in a forest which is supported by elements.

That's not to say that I don't want to see elements return as they are - energy infused with elements that actually do damage rather than status effects. But that's more a problem with how the abilities themselves were shaped to be after reform, not the class/job itself. Fix the spells first, which they seem to be already doing. If anything, I'm looking forward to seeing the classic approach to a Black Mage (primary fire thunder and ice) and a new twist to a White Mage (becoming one and protecting the forests and life).

To the OP,

Don't forget, we're probably getting a redmage that'll get some of the missing spells you mentioned. Like dia. Imo. Plus, the way I see XIV... I don't see why whm WOULDN'T get tornado quake or flood. I mean why not?

whm/cnj controls water, wind, and earth type spells. They did in the past, and I think its good that they do now.

Who knows what else we'll get when level cap goes beyond 50.

What if they made it so that Blizzard and Water were available as cross class skills in the way that stone, fire, thunder, and aero are. That way if you wanted to you could have all of the elements available to you as a class, or if your job had both CNJ and THM spells available [Granted if on a job you probably wouldn't set all of them at once.] you could use all of the basic level elemental spells. Just a thought. :o

I think arcanist will use dia/banish etc instead.
When they increase lv cap, im sure WHM will learn tornado etc.
WHM is based on CNJ, which is tied to the elementals of Grid; so it's not strange for them to use wind/water/earth spells.

conjurer/white mage lore in ffxiv != white mage lore in other FF titles

same goes for black mage

anyway, just read kinsey's post. it pretty much covers everything.

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Originally Posted by AceofRains

What if they made it so that Blizzard and Water were available as cross class skills in the way that stone, fire, thunder, and aero are. That way if you wanted to you could have all of the elements available to you as a class, or if your job had both CNJ and THM spells available [Granted if on a job you probably wouldn't set all of them at once.] you could use all of the basic level elemental spells. Just a thought. :o

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I have to object, actually. I really hope that Blizzard and Water are the two elements that remain branch-specific, not to be cross-classed. Seeing as SE seems to be locking magic amongst DoM, it then falls to lore. For a CNJ to borrow Ice powers is ludicrous - ice can never be used for restoration or protection. At least fire and lightning both can, where warmth and ash fertilise and promote growth in the forests. Ice decays and frosts what it touches - it can never provide the duties conjurers have. On the same level, water is too deeply ingrained as part of the regenerative aspects of elements. For Thaumaturges to utilise a regenerative power as a tool for destruction is absurd. Lore wise, I don't think it's good to mix them.

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Originally Posted by Asael

Of course, there would definitely have to be tweaks to make such a spell balanced. Say the odds of it landing on a regular mob is very likely, the odds of it landing on a NM is less likely, and the odds of it landing on a boss such as Garuda is slim to none. Then even in the event the effect does stick, casting raise for a one hit KO is out of the question, so cure bombs only. But yes, I'm sure various mechanics could be implemented so such a spell doesn't become OP.

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Why would zombie be OP? you'd just use heals for damage, like other bosses having elemental weaknesses. And WHM shouldn't waste MP on damage in boss fights; that's what the DPS classes are for.

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

If anything, Water should be the only element Black Mages should never receive in FFXIV. Water in the lore is synonymous with healing and protection - as devout practitioners of havoc, Black Mages should feel mental pressure for even thinking about using Water to function as an offensive ability.

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Like others said, water can be very destructive, so why should BLM feel mental pressure for thinking about using it? kinda silly.
You can make high pressure water streams drill/cut through steel; Or tsunamis to crush cities.
Likewise you can use fire to heat up someone who is freezing to death. or Lightning to resuscitate someone whose heart stopped beating.

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

For a CNJ to borrow Ice powers is ludicrous - ice can never be used for restoration or protection.

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oh really? except you could make a wall of ice as protection. Surround yourself in a block of ice, to absorb X damage, or nullify ice damage cast on you.

I wont bother to read any other post, since my answer is simple, "HELL NO"

Lore wise I see no issue BLM using stone and water as destruction spells - though Blizzard doesnt seem so great for CNJ all I readily think about is some sort of second stoneskin :/ (Fire and Lightning could easily be adapted to a CNJ thing though)

If you tried hard you could say the cold helps focus the mind for mp or something (reminds me of Tummo lol)

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Originally Posted by Radacci

Like others said, water can be very destructive, so why should BLM feel mental pressure for thinking about using it? kinda silly.
You can make high pressure water streams drill/cut through steel; Or tsunamis to crush cities.
Likewise you can use fire to heat up someone who is freezing to death. or Lightning to resuscitate someone whose heart stopped beating.

oh really? except you could make a wall of ice as protection. Surround yourself in a block of ice, to absorb X damage, or nullify ice damage cast on you.

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I'll answer your last segment first:

In nature, have you EVER seen ice nuture or make anything grow? Conjurers use their arts to protect the elementals and the forests - that means nuturing and maintaining the ecosystems in the forests, so to speak. Ice as protection around yourself still destroys the environment around you, yet doesn't provide the opportunity for said environment to revive itself. I speak in terms of the lore, as always when it comes to this. If we were to just talk about protection, we could have <insert element>skin, since ALL elements are capable of defending the user.

Also, I never mentioned to keep fire and lightning class-specific. I only ask for water and ice, so your relation to fire heating somebody frozen to death (which further my points about ice being destructive) is moot.

Now for water - yes, in some other universe, it would be so. However, water in THIS lore and game is mostly of the beneficial type, not to be used for heavy damage output. SE have already reached a compromise, making the Water spell a knock-back effect with low damage. I suppose I worded it wrong - for a BLM to utilise an element which is more orientated to regenerative purposes will result in a less-than-satisfied result. Not exactly 'mental' pressure, but it wouldn't result in a working ability with a BLM's damage dealing aspect in mind.

Shougun - if you used cold to calm your mind, why not use the cooling aspect of water rather than ice? Chilling your brain is very different from calming your brain. I just don't see BLM using water which is quite restorative-heavy in the game's lore as a heavy source of ability.

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

Shougun - if you used cold to calm your mind, why not use the cooling aspect of water rather than ice? Chilling your brain is very different from calming your brain. I just don't see BLM using water which is quite restorative-heavy in the game's lore as a heavy source of ability.

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I said tried hard, like people probably would just buy it as "its magic" *waving hands in the air* lol


I think fire, lightning share for aero, stone is pretty decent - then blizzard and water stay sole ownership. Besides that to my knowledge the water, solid or not has always been a very "meh" DD spell even for a decked out BLM its mostly a debuff (slow, snap to ground, reduce aggro).

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I said tried hard, like people probably would just buy it as "its magic" *waving hands in the air* lol


I think fire, lightning share for aero, stone is pretty decent - then blizzard and water stay sole ownership. Besides that to my knowledge the water, solid or not has always been a very "meh" DD spell even for a decked out BLM its mostly a debuff (slow, snap to ground, reduce aggro).

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Yup, that's what I'm getting at. Let Fire, Lightning, Wind and Earth elements be cross-class, but Ice and Water remain class-specific. Either way in lore, there will be too many contradictions otherwise.

As for the debuff issue...I hope that with Arcanist coming out as the king of debuffs, it frees up the THM elements to be truly destructive in power. It seems to have worked with CNJ already (Stone lost its magic evasion debuff, and instead is more powerful in the alpha footage) so it could work with THM and it's Ice spells as well.

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

Yup, that's what I'm getting at. Let Fire, Lightning, Wind and Earth elements be cross-class, but Ice and Water remain class-specific. Either way in lore, there will be too many contradictions otherwise.

As for the debuff issue...I hope that with Arcanist coming out as the king of debuffs, it frees up the THM elements to be truly destructive in power. It seems to have worked with CNJ already (Stone lost its magic evasion debuff, and instead is more powerful in the alpha footage) so it could work with THM and it's Ice spells as well.

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BLM had an Ice wheel? IDK


:P

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

I'll answer your last segment first:

In nature, have you EVER seen ice nuture or make anything grow? Conjurers use their arts to protect the elementals and the forests - that means nuturing and maintaining the ecosystems in the forests, so to speak. Ice as protection around yourself still destroys the environment around you, yet doesn't provide the opportunity for said environment to revive itself. I speak in terms of the lore, as always when it comes to this. If we were to just talk about protection, we could have <insert element>skin, since ALL elements are capable of defending the user.

Also, I never mentioned to keep fire and lightning class-specific. I only ask for water and ice, so your relation to fire heating somebody frozen to death (which further my points about ice being destructive) is moot.

Now for water - yes, in some other universe, it would be so. However, water in THIS lore and game is mostly of the beneficial type, not to be used for heavy damage output. SE have already reached a compromise, making the Water spell a knock-back effect with low damage. I suppose I worded it wrong - for a BLM to utilise an element which is more orientated to regenerative purposes will result in a less-than-satisfied result. Not exactly 'mental' pressure, but it wouldn't result in a working ability with a BLM's damage dealing aspect in mind.

Shougun - if you used cold to calm your mind, why not use the cooling aspect of water rather than ice? Chilling your brain is very different from calming your brain. I just don't see BLM using water which is quite restorative-heavy in the game's lore as a heavy source of ability.

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Ice could be used to reflect sunlight, in case it would for some reason become to warm; So you would save the forest from dying from heat, or burning.
You're assuming the block of ice around you would last forever...it wouldn't; it would melt and nourish the forest.
And ice destroys everything every winter anyways, then it's reborn.

I was just pointing out that any element can be both destructive and protective. So it wouldn't make sense for water to be CNJ specific, and ice BLM specific.
For all purposes CNJ could use all elements also, but in protective manner; and BLM could use all elements in a destructive manner.

Hmm and i suppose Leviathans main purpose is healing *Sarcasm off*
Cure isn't water elemental, and neither is protect. And i don't see how water would be better at protection than ice anyways? water won't stop an arrow, a wall of ice would
Not to mention to much water kill plants.
Ofc Ice is destructive, as is all other elements, but all elements can also be beneficial; so you can argue with me as much as you want about it, but it wont change the facts :)

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

As for the debuff issue...I hope that with Arcanist coming out as the king of debuffs, it frees up the THM elements to be truly destructive in power. It seems to have worked with CNJ already (Stone lost its magic evasion debuff, and instead is more powerful in the alpha footage) so it could work with THM and it's Ice spells as well.

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Stone became weaker than in 1.0 :) it has potency of 80. lancer skills have 100-200. So lancer is 2-3 times stronger than CNJ. in 1.0 is was kinda the other way around.

There should be a reason to seperate nukes other than giving cnj/whm an ability to solo/DD,
basically, having nukes divided should be have a purpose behind it such as a factor influencing party play

for example:

a) using a modified skillchain/magic burst system, say a whm and blm both cast aero within 5 seconds of each other, this should conjure up a tornado at the mp cost of aero, this basically gives a reason to cross class certain spells and stop spamming if you need to rely on a party member

b) if whm cast aero, and blm cast fire within 5 seconds, the wind should give the fire an updraft and conjure up Ardor/firestorm, this would give a reason to stop spamming as you rely on party members.

Most probably blm elemental will be expanded while whm has it's own tier of magic (light and devine) that has damage factors, while CNJ will be able to utilize some elements if in that roll. Need some whm mage enfeebs and dots.

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Originally Posted by kazaran

Most probably blm elemental will be expanded while whm has it's own tier of magic (light and devine) that has damage factors, while CNJ will be able to utilize some elements if in that roll. Need some whm mage enfeebs and dots.

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What makes you think that's probable :)
I don't think they suddenly gonna make WHM a DPS class, and change it's heals to holy DD. It's already based on CNJ, that has some elemental skills.
I don't find it probable that they'll change BLM skills either; it already has strong spells.
I don't think they'll add more skills to either classes or jobs. it's still gonna be 16 skills for classes, and 5 for jobs.

Not happening.

As it's been stated, if you bother to play the old FF games you'll see whms have wind, water and earth elemental magic.
Furthermore, we're playing a MMO. The whms you see in non-MMO FF games which have nothing but cures and divine magic also have parties of competent damage dealers and are designed to act as a support role in that team. MMO characters do not log in with 3-4 other characters capable of killing stuff.

The only MMO I can think of with whms forgoing all elemental magic is XI, which made up for it by making whm viable for solo with gear / really good skill in clubs. Even XI's solo whms did not spam banish/holy/banishga for damage. They dualwielded clubs, paid outrageous prices for the kraken club and subbed ninja for Utsusemi.

What you're asking for will gimp whm and make it party only in XIV since XIV doesn't have an armory system that can support skill ranks in certain weapons or dual classes, making solo play as whm impossible.

Black Mage already had it's chance to have all the elemental spells back when Conjurer or Thaumaturge were in line for the job, the player's voices were heard and SE made their choice. Guess who got Black Mage? Sorry but Conjurer should not sacrifice even 1 element to any other Mage let alone all 3 to Thaumaturge. There are plenty of other spells in the Black Mage library SE can dust off if it comes to it.

TL;DR, but THIS:

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Originally Posted by Altena

Quake especially.

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Can we have a Float spell later on, please? And more damage floors like Aurum Vale so it doesn't go to waste? I'll understand if not. ._.

We are forgetting a few details about mages class/jobs.

CNJ - healer, buffer
WHM - healer, buffer, party debuffer, enemy stranding control

* WHM should be a job especialized on: Spirits (ghosts) type, Demon type and Undead type mobs.

THM - nuker, dotter
BLM - nuker, dotter, enemy debuffer, enemy stranding control

* BLM should be a job especialized on: Elemental spirits, and mob elemental weakness.

I'm just meanning that WHM is lacking on spell content like BLM. Yoshi should do a deep investigation on these 2 jobs to balance them properly, making them unique to have in party. Also the concept of WHM been a dotter in the absence of a BLM is also a good concept, but make it impossible to be it in a presence of a BLM. That way jobs rules will not be about multy-tasking.

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Originally Posted by Radacci

Ice could be used to reflect sunlight, in case it would for some reason become to warm; So you would save the forest from dying from heat, or burning.

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As far as I'm aware, people don't hurl snow onto bushfires. It's water.

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You're assuming the block of ice around you would last forever...it wouldn't; it would melt and nourish the forest.

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That block of ice becomes water...it's the water that's nourishing, not the ice. Of course I'm going to separate it as Ice and Water are two very different elements in this universe.

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And ice destroys everything every winter anyways, then it's reborn.

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You clearly haven't seen frostbite on living things, have you? There's no turning back after being frostbited.

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I was just pointing out that any element can be both destructive and protective. So it wouldn't make sense for water to be CNJ specific, and ice BLM specific.
For all purposes CNJ could use all elements also, but in protective manner; and BLM could use all elements in a destructive manner.

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But in all cases, it is always as the form of WATER that good is done. Even if so, what can Ice do that Water can't do, if not better? I'm separating the two very distinctly here.

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Hmm and i suppose Leviathans main purpose is healing *Sarcasm off*

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And I suppose that everything can survive without water either. *Sarcasm off* You're bringing one extreme force which controls an element how he wills to a matter that is being used by mere races. Of course the control will be totally off the scale in difference.

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Cure isn't water elemental, and neither is protect. And i don't see how water would be better at protection than ice anyways? water won't stop an arrow, a wall of ice would

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Look above, what can survive without water? And I believe a rep stated before that CNJs could use Wind, Earth and Water based spells, after Water got taken out after reform. And it was also 'obvious' which one was related to water.

Also, I've said this before - I'm not referring to the protection of the user, but of the surroundings.

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Not to mention to much water kill plants.

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Why do you need to go into extremes? Too much earth buries things alive. Too much wind takes someone's breath away. Doesn't mean that these elements are naturally aren't more beneficial than the other three. Earth for nourishment and rooting. Wind for breathing and aeration. Water for moisture and sustainment. Can fire, lightning and ice do any good at that basic level?

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Ofc Ice is destructive, as is all other elements, but all elements can also be beneficial; so you can argue with me as much as you want about it, but it wont change the facts :)

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The fact that Ice can't do any plausible beneficial aspects without resorting to Water is indicative enough. It can't sustain life - it slows and decays it. Instead of thinking of Ice as frozen water, think of it more as the primal force of CHILLINESS.

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Stone became weaker than in 1.0 :) it has potency of 80. lancer skills have 100-200. So lancer is 2-3 times stronger than CNJ. in 1.0 is was kinda the other way around.

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I am referring to CNJ - why are you bringing LNC in? Compare Stone and Aero in the vid. Compare Stone and Water in the vid. Which one is the stronger spell?

Sorry to nitpick, but I am being very adamant about this. Ice and Water are two very different elements - if Ice has to rely on some form of water to bring benefits, then it is ultimately Water which is providing that certain benefit. By itself, what can it do to help the elements, the forests?

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

As far as I'm aware, people don't hurl snow onto bushfires. It's water.



That block of ice becomes water...it's the water that's nourishing, not the ice. Of course I'm going to separate it as Ice and Water are two very different elements in this universe.



You clearly haven't seen frostbite on living things, have you? There's no turning back after being frostbited.



But in all cases, it is always as the form of WATER that good is done. Even if so, what can Ice do that Water can't do, if not better? I'm separating the two very distinctly here.



And I suppose that everything can survive without water either. *Sarcasm off* You're bringing one extreme force which controls an element how he wills to a matter that is being used by mere races. Of course the control will be totally off the scale in difference.



Look above, what can survive without water? And I believe a rep stated before that CNJs could use Wind, Earth and Water based spells, after Water got taken out after reform. And it was also 'obvious' which one was related to water.

Also, I've said this before - I'm not referring to the protection of the user, but of the surroundings.



Why do you need to go into extremes? Too much earth buries things alive. Too much wind takes someone's breath away. Doesn't mean that these elements are naturally aren't more beneficial than the other three. Earth for nourishment and rooting. Wind for breathing and aeration. Water for moisture and sustainment. Can fire, lightning and ice do any good at that basic level?



The fact that Ice can't do any plausible beneficial aspects without resorting to Water is indicative enough. It can't sustain life - it slows and decays it. Instead of thinking of Ice as frozen water, think of it more as the primal force of CHILLINESS.



I am referring to CNJ - why are you bringing LNC in? Compare Stone and Aero in the vid. Compare Stone and Water in the vid. Which one is the stronger spell?

Sorry to nitpick, but I am being very adamant about this. Ice and Water are two very different elements - if Ice has to rely on some form of water to bring benefits, then it is ultimately Water which is providing that certain benefit. By itself, what can it do to help the elements, the forests?

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i'm pretty sure there's not a lot of bush fires going on during winter.

still plants revive after winter; and so does some insects; even after being wrapped up in ice, and frozen solid, all winter.

cryostasis, extending life; Even though it takes some extra stuff to make it work.

It's always mortal heroes that conquer evil. And mortals can become powerful enough to kill Leviathan, or even Bahamut.

i'm not saying water isn't life sustaining, i'm just saying it's as destructive. Meaning that you can use it for either; so CNJ could use water in a beneficial way, BLM in a destructive way. one does not rule out the other.

you're going to extremes when you say BLM shouldn't have access to water spells, because BLM use destruction spells, and somehow water isn't?
The sun is fire, without it we wouldn't live, without it's warmth we would freeze to death, without it's light nothing would grow.
There lives organisms in volcanic vents, in comets, and glaciers. There's organisms that are hydrophobic and would die from water.

you are so narrowminded :) i was simply pointing out the difference in power between CNJ and Lancer; and that stone didn't become stronger; it's pretty much the same. It's rather that the other spells were made weaker. On a side-note aero is DOT, so you can debate that aero is stronger than stone.
The damage difference between water/aero and stone is negligible, because random damage, and potency doesn't do much when dealing with low damage.

Prevent floods? Glaciers can carve out the land...stuff; i'm sure ice and glaciers have done plenty of good stuff through the ages. Even if it comes down to water in the end, water in itself wouldn't be sufficient.

WHM in XIV is more of the combat medic rather than a pure healer: Their role is to heal, but they also can fight if called for, and yes, I've seen whms win the fight in a near party wipe myself. I'm inclined to disagree with the op on this one.

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Originally Posted by Vanguard319

WHM in XIV is more of the combat medic rather than a pure healer: Their role is to heal, but they also can fight if called for, and yes, I've seen whms win the fight in a near party wipe myself. I'm inclined to disagree with the op on this one.

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Altena isn't arguing for removing WHM/CNJ's ability to Nuke, merely transferring Stone/Aero/Water elements to Black Mage and Banish/Whatever becoming their new nukes. If they made mobs actually follow an Elemental Wheel, WHM/CNJ could potentially out damage BLM/THM when it came to mobs like Undead/Dark based mobs.

Also she's trying to say Spells as a whole need to fixed, not just WHM/CNJs but BLM/THMs as well.

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In saying that, I feel as though the whole spell system needs to have another serious look at. Spells should be decided on elemental weakness, not whether you are "killing 1 mob" (thunder) or you are "killing multiple mobs" (fire). Also let's face it, the ice spells suck donkey penis.

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I would like to see the old mechanic return of Fire & Fira being single target, and Firaga being aoe (same goes with the other elements). You could do this across all 6 elements quite easily (with an animation rework of course). If you still wanted to give additional effects, you could do this within the element but I do believe that the reason to cast spells should be based on enemy weaknesses.

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truly do hope that we see the classic FF elements return, instead of it becoming a bland "fire to aoe, thunder to single target", and never see anything else cast.

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It's a Mage problem period.

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Originally Posted by NoloeTazier

Altena isn't arguing for removing WHM/CNJ's ability to Nuke, merely transferring Stone/Aero/Water elements to Black Mage and Banish/Whatever becoming their new nukes. If they made mobs actually follow an Elemental Wheel, WHM/CNJ could potentially out damage BLM/THM when it came to mobs like Undead/Dark based mobs.

Also she's trying to say Spells as a whole need to fixed, not just WHM/CNJs but BLM/THMs as well.





It's a Mage problem period.

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Totally agree with that statement. Here's a like :P

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Originally Posted by NoloeTazier

Altena isn't arguing for removing WHM/CNJ's ability to Nuke, merely transferring Stone/Aero/Water elements to Black Mage and Banish/Whatever becoming their new nukes. If they made mobs actually follow an Elemental Wheel, WHM/CNJ could potentially out damage BLM/THM when it came to mobs like Undead/Dark based mobs.

Also she's trying to say Spells as a whole need to fixed, not just WHM/CNJs but BLM/THMs as well.





It's a Mage problem period.

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Wouldn't make much sense for CNJ to use holy spells...now if WHM was seperate class, then that'd be another thing.
As lv cap goes up, WHM might learn more holy/astral type spells; dealing with undead/umbral mobs.

CNJ is a class, wich means, it's the base pillar of the job.
The job is to be considered a "specialist", then WHM should be able to use Light/Holy spells.

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Originally Posted by Radacci

Wouldn't make much sense for CNJ to use holy spells...now if WHM was seperate class, then that'd be another thing.
As lv cap goes up, WHM might learn more holy/astral type spells; dealing with undead/umbral mobs.

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Conjurer Lore was already butchered when Thaum was given Fire/Thunder/Blizzard lines. I'll be honest I tend to ignore Conjurer/Thaumaturge and just roll with White Mage/Black Mage lore. Kan-E-Senna gives us our White Mage powers, one being Holy, so clearly WHM could obtain more Holy/Astral-type Spells, which is perfectly fine.

I'm fine with things as they are, the thing I'm not fine with are the uselessness that comes with our damaging spells, losing power so they can have secondary enfeeble/debuffs just annoys me and feels so wrong. What I am for is giving the Elemental Wheel an actual weight, WHM/BLM don't always need a Super Effective spell to hit every mob but atleast having 1 neutral line gives them the ability to go into any content. The lines should also be comparable in MP and base Power, with this you can give Abilities, Gear, and the Elements more accountability. And I think it'd make everyone feel better and give back a "FF" feeling.

off topic but yeah, wanted to voice a concern

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Originally Posted by faris

Not happening.

As it's been stated, if you bother to play the old FF games you'll see whms have wind, water and earth elemental magic.
Furthermore, we're playing a MMO. The whms you see in non-MMO FF games which have nothing but cures and divine magic also have parties of competent damage dealers and are designed to act as a support role in that team. MMO characters do not log in with 3-4 other characters capable of killing stuff.

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Yea, a handful of old final fantasy games, like one or two.

People are just going to continue pick and choose here with these 'this class should be able to this' stuff and always have their own opinion of which FF did it better.

Like for say if SMN was the same as FFIV's summoner Rydia, you would have the ability to summon, and use both white and black magic to an extent, until you disapear into the underworld for a while and get better at black magic and summoning but become unable to use white magic.

FFIV's white mage Rosa also did not have elemental magic, but the bestest cures and some holy magic for attacking. Some people dont want that 'version' of the white mage tho, they want the version from [instert FF title here] that could use stone and aero...

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Originally Posted by NoloeTazier

Conjurer Lore was already butchered when Thaum was given Fire/Thunder/Blizzard lines. I'll be honest I tend to ignore Conjurer/Thaumaturge and just roll with White Mage/Black Mage lore. Kan-E-Senna gives us our White Mage powers, one being Holy, so clearly WHM could obtain more Holy/Astral-type Spells, which is perfectly fine.

I'm fine with things as they are, the thing I'm not fine with are the uselessness that comes with our damaging spells, losing power so they can have secondary enfeeble/debuffs just annoys me and feels so wrong. What I am for is giving the Elemental Wheel an actual weight, WHM/BLM don't always need a Super Effective spell to hit every mob but atleast having 1 neutral line gives them the ability to go into any content. The lines should also be comparable in MP and base Power, with this you can give Abilities, Gear, and the Elements more accountability. And I think it'd make everyone feel better and give back a "FF" feeling.

off topic but yeah, wanted to voice a concern

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well it's difficult to say how end game will work. if it's like 1.0, mages more easily get spell damage, than melees getting physical damage. So even if CNJ spells have rather low potency, they might end up doing more damage than melee classes end-game.
if their power and potency was high from the beginning, they'd be to OP later on.
we'll see how it goes at higher levels ^^

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Originally Posted by Reika

Yea, a handful of old final fantasy games, like one or two.

People are just going to continue pick and choose here with these 'this class should be able to this' stuff and always have their own opinion of which FF did it better.

Like for say if SMN was the same as FFIV's summoner Rydia, you would have the ability to summon, and use both white and black magic to an extent, until you disapear into the underworld for a while and get better at black magic and summoning but become unable to use white magic.

FFIV's white mage Rosa also did not have elemental magic, but the bestest cures and some holy magic for attacking. Some people dont want that 'version' of the white mage tho, they want the version from [instert FF title here] that could use stone and aero...

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like others stated, WHM in some of those games were just WHM and nothing else. If WHM was just WHM here, having 16 skills of it's own, that'd be an entirely different thing; then it wouldn't make sense for it to have elemental skills; it would make more sense if they only had Holy/Astral spells. But now it's based on CNJ, so it's inevitable; because CNJ with astral spells don't make sense.
And i'm sure in Rydias case it wasn't that SMN itself had access too WHM/BLM spells, but rather that Rydia herself was SMN/WHM/BLM, and could mix spells, like we could in 1.0
Imagine how stupid it would be if Yuna could ONLY summon, and nothing else? she would be largely useless in most fights; or make all other party members useless.
And imagine if Rydia could summon everything, use high lv WHM spells like Rosa, and BLM spells like...Vivi? Overpowered much?

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Originally Posted by Reika

Yea, a handful of old final fantasy games, like one or two.
People are just going to continue pick and choose here with these 'this class should be able to this' stuff and always have their own opinion of which FF did it better. Like for say if SMN was the same as FFIV's summoner Rydia, you would have the ability to summon, and use both white and black magic to an extent, until you disapear into the underworld for a while and get better at black magic and summoning but become unable to use white magic.

FFIV's white mage Rosa also did not have elemental magic, but the bestest cures and some holy magic for attacking. Some people dont want that 'version' of the white mage tho, they want the version from [instert FF title here] that could use stone and aero...

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You're not getting my point. The early games gave the base classes their capabilities. IV, VI, and IX gave us characters with jobs, but their own unique things as characters which shouldn't be confused with a typical job capability. As I said in the "ninjas should get dogs, omg!" thread, People need to learn that FF characters =/= their characters in games which introduced characters with varying personalities and personal abilities rather than guys which were certain jobs which you could name.

Your example's a little flawed too. Rydia's white and black magic was designed to give her a purpose before she got get her summons / Porom and Palom were introduced / Rosa could join the party. Furthermore, she came back to the party at a point where Rosa was in the group, but without her white magic. Why? Because she was designed to be healing support for when Rosa/Porom wasn't in the party. That's why.

SMN will never be the same as Rydia. Rydia is Rydia and she is the way she is, has the skills and magic she has for storyline reasons exclusive to her character. (Because after all, what are the odds of every single summoner ever, in any Final Fantasy having their hometown destroyed by a pesky dark knight and being dragged off to the Feymarch by Leviathan which becomes all of their surrogate fathers?)

It's not a case of everyone wanting a certain white mage from a certain game either. It's a matter that a class in a MMO requires a certain amount of resilience, no matter the class. Even white mage, which suffers from remarkably poor defence as penalization already. It needs some way to inflict damage on an enemy for solo. If white mage becomes nothing but the Rosa example of bestest cures ever (which was more of a personality trait, really. She was well known not for just being a white mage, but a really, really talented healer) it is completely impossible to play without a group. Groups are not always around in MMOs.

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Originally Posted by Radacci

And i'm sure in Rydias case it wasn't that SMN itself had access too WHM/BLM spells, but rather that Rydia herself was SMN/WHM/BLM, and could mix spells, like we could in 1.0
Imagine how stupid it would be if Yuna could ONLY summon, and nothing else? she would be largely useless in most fights; or make all other party members useless.
And imagine if Rydia could summon everything, use high lv WHM spells like Rosa, and BLM spells like...Vivi? Overpowered much?

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Exactly. Rydia got black magic in FF4 because at the end of the game, you have no black mage as well.

I find this most troubling because BLM is a DD he cant just run around and cure if his spells are elemental reisted like the WHM. Which means in boss fights and such elemental resistances need to mean nothing else the BLM becomes useless (and as we've seen this is partially true as BLM just lays out thunder, thunder, thunder, thunder what type of boss is it? dont care thunder thunder thunder thunder).


I'd love to see the BLM have the wheel just so we can not totally destroy a class based on elements or totally destroy the elemental wheel on EG content, as WHM can heal and DD well (if the monster is elementally weak to stone but people think the BLM should be stuck to the three elements and getting nothing else to do if those dont cut it - I'm not getting that).


Also OP, and pretty much -everyone- else that suggested WHM lose their elemental skills made sure to give WHM non-elemental skills that continued their DD ability. However there are some who think that BLM and WHM can share and I think thats legitimate as well - there is no reason why an element cant be considered for DD and protection I mean even on the WHM itself you have stone the spell and stoneskin the defense.

Also as a matter of FF lore BLM has had the whole wheel before, WHM has had parts of the wheel, and sometimes both could learn both - and in FFXIV itself I dont remember any part of the game saying "stone is only for WHM because its a non destructive destructive magic (wtf? lol)"

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Originally Posted by Shougun

I'd love to see the BLM have the wheel just so we can not totally destroy a class based on elements or totally destroy the elemental wheel on EG content, as WHM can heal and DD well (if the monster is elementally weak to stone but people think the BLM should be stuck to the three elements and getting nothing else to do if those dont cut it - I'm not getting that).


Also OP, and pretty much -everyone- else that suggested WHM lose their elemental skills made sure to give WHM non-elemental skills that continued their DD ability. However there are some who think that BLM and WHM can share and I think thats legitimate as well - there is no reason why an element cant be considered for DD and protection I mean even on the WHM itself you have stone the spell and stoneskin the defense.

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I think everyone who has argued to remove elemental nukes from CNJ has also been specifically saying to fix THM/BLM's spells to make them useful in any situation. ;)

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Originally Posted by Mychael

I think everyone who has argued to remove elemental nukes from CNJ has also been specifically saying to fix THM/BLM's spells to make them useful in any situation. ;)

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Well yeah I want the BLM to have spells useful in any situation by ---following--- the elemental wheel. Now that we have like 90 slots we can have many more spells so SE can stop condensing the BLM into "aoe fire" "single target lightning" "debuff ice".



Because I dont want to be casting thunder for the rest of my BLM lifetime.

Unlike the WHM, BLM is only DD - so we shouldnt be talking like WHM needs to be on par with BLM. BLM needs to swamp WHM in DD- but everyone will cry if the BLM says "i'm going support" because WHM swamps BLM in support (which is already true lol). The BLM swamps WHM in a small average, and most obvious on thunder weak monsters but WHM can and will out damage a BLM on stone weak monsters lol.