SE stop doing the "norm"

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Loony_BoB

Yeah, they can do anything and it will still be a success! ...wait, why are they remaking FFXIV again?

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The standard and reception of their games has gone down. They want to turn that image around?

I would think the Armory system is unique enough to set FF14 apart from any other "WoW-clone" out there. No other MMO besides FF11 has allowed you to experience everything on one character, to the best of my knowledge. An FF game is usually known for it's engaging story, good graphics and characteristics unique to its series.

A lot of these other things being introduced into the game such as vanity slots are just modern conveniences. This whole "copying other games" notion is a dead horse topic at this point. Games have borrowed ideas from other games or other sources since their creation. It should be a given that FF14 is going to have popular features from other games that are currently successful.

I'd dare say it was because it didn't have some modern features from other games is why it lost a lot of people in the first place. I wasn't looking for an exact FF11 clone when I started playing. I wanted something different that had the same "Final Fantasy feel" to it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shougun

The standard and reception of their games has gone down. They want to turn that image around?

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he was asking a rhetorical question

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shougun

The standard and reception of their games has gone down. They want to turn that image around?

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He knows.
He's just responding to the idea that they could do anything with the franchise and it could sell.

This very game is contrary to the claim.

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Originally Posted by Gramul

They think wrong.

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in a word: no.

megacorporations pay marketing research teams millions upon millions of dollars for a reason. you don't think Big Tobacco became so big in the first place by accident, do you?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orophin

I would think the Armory system is unique enough to set FF14 apart from any other "WoW-clone" out there. No other MMO besides FF11 has allowed you to experience everything on one character, to the best of my knowledge. An FF game is usually known for it's engaging story, good graphics and characteristic unique to its series.

A lot of these other things being introduced into the game such as vanity slots are just modern conveniences. This whole "copying other games" notion is a dead horse topic at this point. Games have borrowed ideas from other games or other sources since their creation. It should be a given that FF14 is going to have popular features from other games that are currently successful.

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And while it's fantastic that you can change your job on the fly, it doesn't do terribly much for gameplay other than not having to switch out your avatar or go back to a hub to change it out.

Out of curiosity, what are the 5-10 biggest MMOs right now, and what are their major selling points that make them different to the rest?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gramul

And while it's fantastic that you can change your job on the fly, it doesn't do terribly much for gameplay other than not having to switch out your avatar or go back to a hub to change it out.

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Maybe I'm in the vast minority here, but I feel a much greater connection with my one character in one game than having to make multiples to do the exact same things in another. In FF14, I'm Orophin, the multi-talented warrior, mage, armorer, fisherman. In WoW, I'm Adam the Human Warrior who does blacksmithing and mining, Billy the Dwarven Hunter who does engineering and mining, Christina the space goat Paladin who does herbalism and alchemy... and it goes on.

But then again, I guess I'm one of the few people who doesn't see an MMO just as a loot pinata.

My issue with the way things are turning out is that the game just wont have the same lasting value that older MMOs used to have.

People treat MMO's these days much like singleplayer and multiplayer games as a "Disposable game" as something to rush through and move on to the next game. People treat MMOs as something they should be able to "Beat" in a short time, where as older MMOs people just knew that it was never something to "Win or beat" it was to continually grow for as long as possible.

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Originally Posted by fusional

in a word: no.

megacorporations pay marketing research teams millions upon millions of dollars for a reason. you don't think Big Tobacco became so big in the first place by accident, do you?

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And they keep wasting those millions upon millions on things like:

• Overpopulating the 'rockband genre'
• Twitter on Xbox
• Generic FPS rebirths
• Too Human
• Capcom for the past 2 years
• Banjo Kazooie Nuts and Bolts
• The Vita (sorry, it's just not catching on)
• Sonic06
• Final Fantasy Fourteen
• And relentless other failures and disappointments that have plagued this generation because of the over-reliance on "market researchers" that over-think some pretty simple concepts.
  

So in 2 words: Shut up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orophin

Maybe I'm in the vast minority here, but I feel a much greater connection with my one character in one game than having to make multiples to do the exact same things in another. In FF14, I'm Orophin, the multi-talented warrior, mage, armorer, fisherman. In WoW, I'm Adam the Human Warrior who does blacksmithing and mining, Billy the Dwarven Hunter who does engineering and mining, Christina the space goat Paladin who does herbalism and alchemy... and it goes on.

But then again, I guess I'm one of the few people who doesn't see an MMO just as a loot pinata.

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Well like I said, it's great, but not a huge selling point.

I mean, it didn't keep people for 1.0.

Jynx GW2 is a great example of that, it's a single player game with multiplayer aspects.

@ Orophin Mabinogi, Mabinogi you could change things up whenever, be whatever whenever. I was a bard(a real bard that made it's OWN songs) and an archer, though if need be, I could quickly equip a sword or anything.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Gramul

Well like I said, it's great, but not a huge selling point.

I mean, it didn't keep people for 1.0.

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That's because 1.0 was a horrible game. Mostly FF11 purists stuck around more than the first month when it was still assumed you would have to pay a monthly sub.

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Originally Posted by Rokien

@ Orophin Mabinogi, Mabinogi you could change things up whenever, be whatever whenever. I was a bard(a real bard that made it's OWN songs) and an archer, though if need be, I could quickly equip a sword or anything.

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Heard of it before but never really looked it up. I never saw it got pushed like other franchise MMOs so I'm guessing that's why I've never really heard of it.

Edit: At a glance, just looks like another Korean pay to win MMO, but maybe it's not a fair assessment without having ever played it. "Using special character cards available in the Web Shop, you can choose to play various types of characters" I kinda stopped reading there.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orophin

That's because 1.0 was a horrible game. Mostly FF11 purists stuck around more than the first month when it was still assumed you would have to pay a monthly sub.

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Yeah, but I don't think it's a feature that will really make people gravitate towards ARR.

But who knows, we'll see when the time comes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orophin

I would think the Armory system is unique enough to set FF14 apart from any other "WoW-clone" out there. No other MMO besides FF11 has allowed you to experience everything on one character, to the best of my knowledge. .

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More and more are popping up actually. Eden Eternal has the same system and then some...it's only downfall is it's a pure Buy 2 Win "Free to play" game.

While I appreciate that Square took the route of fixing their product as opposed to screwing over customers who purchased it (Lookin' at you APB), I'm disappointed they took such a baby-with-the-bathwater approach and scrapped the few concepts and ideas they had going for them

What was wrong with 1.0? Well

Poor, rushed world design
Major server and UI issues
Lack of content
Class homogenization and lack of identity
A few bugs here and there

Which of those issues necessitated gutting their entire foundation, replacing it with the barest of most uninspired cop outs? The servers were set to be replaced, the world was being redesigned, the class overhaul worked wonders (I still feel the jobs were completely unnecessary), content was being produced, bugs were being patched, and the UI looked promising. Why couldn't we have had all of that...with 1.0's slower paced, deliberate combat, sense of progression, and realistic fantasy aesthetic? Why was all of that given up? It wasn't bad or detrimental, it was different. It worked well, the only issue people really having being sever related, which was fixed regardless!

They could have made a well polished MMO that played like it's own game, and instead we got a well polished MMO that plays like everything else.

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Originally Posted by Fated

Any chance of FFXIV being the next FFXI with improvements is long gone.

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Never give up.

FFXVII might be!

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Originally Posted by Rokien

FFXI, that should have been your core model for 2.0 not GW2, RIFT, WOW, what have ya.

Please read these comments

http://massively.joystiq.com/2012/10...ke-to-see-mor/

You can see, most people are tired of how MMOS are being made, and they want them back to how they were(aka FFXI)

"... What made MMOs fun back in the day (and kept me logging in) was the sheer challenge of the content. Quests are fine to me, but do we really need a HUGE question mark? Glowing trails and arrows pointing you EXACTLY where you need to go? All that does is focus the gamer to consume the content as soon as possible. And we all know how much fun that is. Questing alone doesn't make me want to logon everyday. Its the complete experience."

I'm also not saying be stuck in the past, but add new things, be creative try something new that another game hasen't but keep that whole MMO WORLD feel. To me that's adventure, companionship, not, "go here, go there, go here" That's not any types of fun, that's just a good time killer.

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i have the same opinion, XIV did not fail be cause it was not up to the mmo standart but be cause of major design flaws.
anyway since we dont know yet how 2.0 will turn out i will not start to complain now.
But let them be warned, not all ppl want a compilation of standart mmo things but innovative new things to explore and a world where you can immerse yourself.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Orophin

I'd venture a guess that the people that want to do things that take 8 hours at a time are people that just have nothing else better to do with their time. Most people from 10 years ago who had the time to play the game for those stretches of time have families and other priorities now. Surely SE recognizes this and is going to design a game around their core demographic, which are people who play more casually.

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Wow. Your entire post is a collection of several canned arguments, all equally flawed, all condensed into a single paragraph. That's kind of impressive.

I played FFXI for 7+ years. I never spent near 8 hours at any one time doing anything. I never had to. I can count easily on one hand how many times I even came close to being actively logged in and playing at all for that long, and I played the hell out of FFXI. If something took more time than that to complete and I didn't have the time to do it in one shot, I did it in multiple sessions. No big deal. I wasn't in a hurry.

Further, saying "people that just have nothing better to do with their time". You could say the same of someone spending 3 hours, or 2 hours, or even 1 hour. Obviously, if they're taking the time to sit down and play a MMORPG - or any game - for any amount of time, you would hope that they aren't neglecting "something more important" to do so. Some people spend far more time than 8 hours doing things they enjoy.

I've known people to spend all day at the beach surfing. People will start fishing at sun-up and not stop 'til sun-down. You could argue they don't have anything better to do with their time as well, but it wouldn't really matter would it? The point is, they have that time, and that's how they choose to spend it, just as it is with MMOs. How much time people have, how they choose to spend it, and how playing a MMORPG ranks among other things they could be doing is completely up to the individual and is entirely irrelevant in this context. It's a non-argument.

Another flawed argument that you'll be comforted to know is used by many people is the whole "people who had time 10 years ago have families now and don't have that kind of time anymore". Every time I see that argument made, I have to shake my head at the complete and apparent lack of critical thinking - or maybe just intellectual laziness - it demonstrates. I'm sure with a little bit of brain-power, you could figure out the flaws in that argument yourself.

In case you can't, I'll give you a couple:

1. The people who played MMORPGs 10 years ago have been continuously replaced by new people coming into the genre, every year since, up to and including today. It's not like some gate closed and no new players ever entered the genre and started playing after we did. There have continuously been new people entering the MMO community. You may have noticed that the MMO gaming population has been growing since 10 years ago, not shrinking or remaining static.

Did you never consider that?

2. Having limited time =/= "requiring a less time-intensive MMO experience". What you're doing here is making an argument that many try to make, in the same way that many make it. They mistake their own personal preferences as being some kind of "standard" by which MMOs should be developed. It's a kind of ego-centric conceit, really; as though somehow MMO design should be centered around individuals and their personal circumstances and desires. Your personal idea of what "reasonable progress" is just that... yours. It's not a standard to be followed. It's not a mandate to be obeyed.

3. People 10 years ago also had jobs and families, even careers, that left them with limited time to play MMOs. Those people still preferred the kind of progress and experience that Rokien describes. Why? Because they had different expectations than you. 10 years ago, people didn't have this "end game is all that matters" or "leveling to end game should be faster" or any other variation you can think of. They played MMOs for the experience of playing in a fantasy world via their characters. They weren't in a hurry to get anywhere, and so whatever time they could spend online was enjoyed simply by virtue of logging into a virtual world they enjoyed being part of.

Again, the idea of "not having enough time" comes back to personal wants and expectations. There is no objective standard governing "how much time should be enough", or "how long something should take to do".

I'd love to think that I'll never see any of those horribly flawed arguments you made ever again. But I'm sure I will, probably right in this thread. It's good enough for me, though, to know that I've hopefully gotten some eyes to open, and that some people have re-thought those positions and realized just how false they actually are.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Wow. Your entire post is a collection of several canned arguments, all equally flawed, all condensed into a single paragraph. That's kind of impressive.

I played FFXI for 7+ years. I never spent near 8 hours at any one time doing anything. I never had to. I can count easily on one hand how many times I even came close to being actively logged in and playing at all for that long, and I played the hell out of FFXI. If something took more time than that to complete and I didn't have the time to do it in one shot, I did it in multiple sessions. No big deal. I wasn't in a hurry.

Further, saying "people that just have nothing better to do with their time". You could say the same of someone spending 3 hours, or 2 hours, or even 1 hour. Obviously, if they're taking the time to sit down and play a MMORPG - or any game - for any amount of time, you would hope that they aren't neglecting "something more important" to do so. Some people spend far more time than 8 hours doing things they enjoy.

I've known people to spend all day at the beach surfing. People will start fishing at sun-up and not stop 'til sun-down. You could argue they don't have anything better to do with their time as well, but it wouldn't really matter would it? The point is, they have that time, and that's how they choose to spend it, just as it is with MMOs. How much time people have, how they choose to spend it, and how playing a MMORPG ranks among other things they could be doing is completely up to the individual and is entirely irrelevant in this context. It's a non-argument.

Another flawed argument that you'll be comforted to know is used by many people is the whole "people who had time 10 years ago have families now and don't have that kind of time anymore". Every time I see that argument made, I have to shake my head at the complete and apparent lack of critical thinking - or maybe just intellectual laziness - it demonstrates. I'm sure with a little bit of brain-power, you could figure out the flaws in that argument yourself.

In case you can't, I'll give you a couple:

1. The people who played MMORPGs 10 years ago have been continuously replaced by new people coming into the genre, every year since, up to and including today. It's not like some gate closed and no new players ever entered the genre and started playing after we did. There have continuously been new people entering the MMO community. You may have noticed that the MMO gaming population has been growing since 10 years ago, not shrinking or remaining static.

Did you never consider that?

2. Having limited time =/= "requiring a less time-intensive MMO experience". What you're doing here is making an argument that many try to make, in the same way that many make it. They mistake their own personal preferences as being some kind of "standard" by which MMOs should be developed. It's a kind of ego-centric conceit, really; as though somehow MMO design should be centered around individuals and their personal circumstances and desires. Your personal idea of what "reasonable progress" is just that... yours. It's not a standard to be followed. It's not a mandate to be obeyed.

3. People 10 years ago also had jobs and families, even careers, that left them with limited time to play MMOs. Those people still preferred the kind of progress and experience that Rokien describes. Why? Because they had different expectations than you. 10 years ago, people didn't have this "end game is all that matters" or "leveling to end game should be faster" or any other variation you can think of. They played MMOs for the experience of playing in a fantasy world via their characters. They weren't in a hurry to get anywhere, and so whatever time they could spend online was enjoyed simply by virtue of logging into a virtual world they enjoyed being part of.

Again, the idea of "not having enough time" comes back to personal wants and expectations. There is no objective standard governing "how much time should be enough", or "how long something should take to do".

I'd love to think that I'll never see any of those horribly flawed arguments you made ever again. But I'm sure I will, probably right in this thread. It's good enough for me, though, to know that I've hopefully gotten some eyes to open, and that some people have re-thought those positions and realized just how false they actually are.

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*claps* /bows

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Wow. Your entire post is a collection of several canned arguments, all equally flawed, all condensed into a single paragraph. That's kind of impressive.

I played FFXI for 7+ years. I never spent near 8 hours at any one time doing anything. I never had to. I can count easily on one hand how many times I even came close to being actively logged in and playing at all for that long, and I played the hell out of FFXI. If something took more time than that to complete and I didn't have the time to do it in one shot, I did it in multiple sessions. No big deal. I wasn't in a hurry.

Further, saying "people that just have nothing better to do with their time". You could say the same of someone spending 3 hours, or 2 hours, or even 1 hour. Obviously, if they're taking the time to sit down and play a MMORPG - or any game - for any amount of time, you would hope that they aren't neglecting "something more important" to do so. Some people spend far more time than 8 hours doing things they enjoy.

I've known people to spend all day at the beach surfing. People will start fishing at sun-up and not stop 'til sun-down. You could argue they don't have anything better to do with their time as well, but it wouldn't really matter would it? The point is, they have that time, and that's how they choose to spend it, just as it is with MMOs. How much time people have, how they choose to spend it, and how playing a MMORPG ranks among other things they could be doing is completely up to the individual and is entirely irrelevant in this context. It's a non-argument.

Another flawed argument that you'll be comforted to know is used by many people is the whole "people who had time 10 years ago have families now and don't have that kind of time anymore". Every time I see that argument made, I have to shake my head at the complete and apparent lack of critical thinking - or maybe just intellectual laziness - it demonstrates. I'm sure with a little bit of brain-power, you could figure out the flaws in that argument yourself.

In case you can't, I'll give you a couple:

1. The people who played MMORPGs 10 years ago have been continuously replaced by new people coming into the genre, every year since, up to and including today. It's not like some gate closed and no new players ever entered the genre and started playing after we did. There have continuously been new people entering the MMO community. You may have noticed that the MMO gaming population has been growing since 10 years ago, not shrinking or remaining static.

Did you never consider that?

2. Having limited time =/= "requiring a less time-intensive MMO experience". What you're doing here is making an argument that many try to make, in the same way that many make it. They mistake their own personal preferences as being some kind of "standard" by which MMOs should be developed. It's a kind of ego-centric conceit, really; as though somehow MMO design should be centered around individuals and their personal circumstances and desires. Your personal idea of what "reasonable progress" is just that... yours. It's not a standard to be followed. It's not a mandate to be obeyed.

3. People 10 years ago also had jobs and families, even careers, that left them with limited time to play MMOs. Those people still preferred the kind of progress and experience that Rokien describes. Why? Because they had different expectations than you. 10 years ago, people didn't have this "end game is all that matters" or "leveling to end game should be faster" or any other variation you can think of. They played MMOs for the experience of playing in a fantasy world via their characters. They weren't in a hurry to get anywhere, and so whatever time they could spend online was enjoyed simply by virtue of logging into a virtual world they enjoyed being part of.

Again, the idea of "not having enough time" comes back to personal wants and expectations. There is no objective standard governing "how much time should be enough", or "how long something should take to do".

I'd love to think that I'll never see any of those horribly flawed arguments you made ever again. But I'm sure I will, probably right in this thread. It's good enough for me, though, to know that I've hopefully gotten some eyes to open, and that some people have re-thought those positions and realized just how false they actually are.

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I'm quoting this entire thing and for one reason. It'll now be up in full in 3 straight posts. Pay attention.

Preypacer, respect. *fistbump*

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Wow. Your entire post is a collection of several canned arguments, all equally flawed, all condensed into a single paragraph. That's kind of impressive.

I played FFXI for 7+ years. I never spent near 8 hours at any one time doing anything. I never had to. I can count easily on one hand how many times I even came close to being actively logged in and playing at all for that long, and I played the hell out of FFXI. If something took more time than that to complete and I didn't have the time to do it in one shot, I did it in multiple sessions. No big deal. I wasn't in a hurry.

Further, saying "people that just have nothing better to do with their time". You could say the same of someone spending 3 hours, or 2 hours, or even 1 hour. Obviously, if they're taking the time to sit down and play a MMORPG - or any game - for any amount of time, you would hope that they aren't neglecting "something more important" to do so. Some people spend far more time than 8 hours doing things they enjoy.

I've known people to spend all day at the beach surfing. People will start fishing at sun-up and not stop 'til sun-down. You could argue they don't have anything better to do with their time as well, but it wouldn't really matter would it? The point is, they have that time, and that's how they choose to spend it, just as it is with MMOs. How much time people have, how they choose to spend it, and how playing a MMORPG ranks among other things they could be doing is completely up to the individual and is entirely irrelevant in this context. It's a non-argument.

Another flawed argument that you'll be comforted to know is used by many people is the whole "people who had time 10 years ago have families now and don't have that kind of time anymore". Every time I see that argument made, I have to shake my head at the complete and apparent lack of critical thinking - or maybe just intellectual laziness - it demonstrates. I'm sure with a little bit of brain-power, you could figure out the flaws in that argument yourself.

In case you can't, I'll give you a couple:

1. The people who played MMORPGs 10 years ago have been continuously replaced by new people coming into the genre, every year since, up to and including today. It's not like some gate closed and no new players ever entered the genre and started playing after we did. There have continuously been new people entering the MMO community. You may have noticed that the MMO gaming population has been growing since 10 years ago, not shrinking or remaining static.

Did you never consider that?

2. Having limited time =/= "requiring a less time-intensive MMO experience". What you're doing here is making an argument that many try to make, in the same way that many make it. They mistake their own personal preferences as being some kind of "standard" by which MMOs should be developed. It's a kind of ego-centric conceit, really; as though somehow MMO design should be centered around individuals and their personal circumstances and desires. Your personal idea of what "reasonable progress" is just that... yours. It's not a standard to be followed. It's not a mandate to be obeyed.

3. People 10 years ago also had jobs and families, even careers, that left them with limited time to play MMOs. Those people still preferred the kind of progress and experience that Rokien describes. Why? Because they had different expectations than you. 10 years ago, people didn't have this "end game is all that matters" or "leveling to end game should be faster" or any other variation you can think of. They played MMOs for the experience of playing in a fantasy world via their characters. They weren't in a hurry to get anywhere, and so whatever time they could spend online was enjoyed simply by virtue of logging into a virtual world they enjoyed being part of.

Again, the idea of "not having enough time" comes back to personal wants and expectations. There is no objective standard governing "how much time should be enough", or "how long something should take to do".

I'd love to think that I'll never see any of those horribly flawed arguments you made ever again. But I'm sure I will, probably right in this thread. It's good enough for me, though, to know that I've hopefully gotten some eyes to open, and that some people have re-thought those positions and realized just how false they actually are.

---

Oh hell yes. You're my new favorite person.

seriously if this game doesn't give me what ffxi gave me it's my last mmo. it's time for these companies to just lose people all together. i don't want to support even buying another disk then leaving a few months later cause that is enough for them these days. tired of gaming for few months or weeks just to say man i hate this mmo or man i got nothing to do or wtf my guild is empty outside of 2hrs for an event every week. carrot on stick ? i don't care i guess that what i like, to grindy? i don't mind at all.

i get it casuals, but it's not them that is the problem, spend 5bucks of SE presidents profits and add some ffxi endgame for people who don't want casual. people don't like it don't do it. i want full linkshell stuff, i want full party missions, i want forced party play, up the wang amounts of it. i want ffxi basically at this point just to remove any question lol. if casuals can't play it then hey in a few months when the game fails again they can make a new mmo ...but i'm done.

quests and dungeons for leveling is the sucks, all mmo's are doing it, what was wrong with keeping it all separate. it only just adds another layer to the game for one. you can flame me to no end now but i'm tired of casuals and tired of all the mmo's catering to them thinking the rest of the players will come for the ride anyway or tough.

where is our A+ mmo that caters to people who want all party play, want challenges, want huge time sinks and full linkshell stuff? i tell you it went to the birds cause it's easier, cheaper and makes them still more money and at end of the day your still the retards that will pay 20bucks for a little dress dlc for your toon. enjoy the planned obsolescence coming to mmo's. /end rant

and b4 you totally flame me you have to tell me what mmo you have played for over a year or 2 that isn't a game like ffxi and not so casual. case closed most likely.

I'm surprised so many of you have apparently obtained a time machine to fully understand and experience the game to its fullest to be putting out such highly informative and indicative opinions on the exact nature of this game against others. Please do give me the number of the manufacturer.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

I'm surprised so many of you have apparently obtained a time machine to fully understand and experience the game to its fullest to be putting out such highly informative and indicative opinions on the exact nature of this game against others. Please do give me the number of the manufacturer.

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Never heard that one before. Points for being so original. A time machine, how clever. he he ho ho ha ha.

I'm only feeding on the information they gave us. The information that was supposed to excite me.

I think I'm smart enough to understand the scope of the concepts they provided. But like I said, I'm willing to try it out first.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Preypacer

Wow. Your entire post is a collection of several canned arguments, all equally flawed, all condensed into a single paragraph. That's kind of impressive.

I played FFXI for 7+ years. I never spent near 8 hours at any one time doing anything. I never had to. I can count easily on one hand how many times I even came close to being actively logged in and playing at all for that long, and I played the hell out of FFXI. If something took more time than that to complete and I didn't have the time to do it in one shot, I did it in multiple sessions. No big deal. I wasn't in a hurry.

Further, saying "people that just have nothing better to do with their time". You could say the same of someone spending 3 hours, or 2 hours, or even 1 hour. Obviously, if they're taking the time to sit down and play a MMORPG - or any game - for any amount of time, you would hope that they aren't neglecting "something more important" to do so. Some people spend far more time than 8 hours doing things they enjoy.

I've known people to spend all day at the beach surfing. People will start fishing at sun-up and not stop 'til sun-down. You could argue they don't have anything better to do with their time as well, but it wouldn't really matter would it? The point is, they have that time, and that's how they choose to spend it, just as it is with MMOs. How much time people have, how they choose to spend it, and how playing a MMORPG ranks among other things they could be doing is completely up to the individual and is entirely irrelevant in this context. It's a non-argument.

Another flawed argument that you'll be comforted to know is used by many people is the whole "people who had time 10 years ago have families now and don't have that kind of time anymore". Every time I see that argument made, I have to shake my head at the complete and apparent lack of critical thinking - or maybe just intellectual laziness - it demonstrates. I'm sure with a little bit of brain-power, you could figure out the flaws in that argument yourself.

In case you can't, I'll give you a couple:

1. The people who played MMORPGs 10 years ago have been continuously replaced by new people coming into the genre, every year since, up to and including today. It's not like some gate closed and no new players ever entered the genre and started playing after we did. There have continuously been new people entering the MMO community. You may have noticed that the MMO gaming population has been growing since 10 years ago, not shrinking or remaining static.

Did you never consider that?

2. Having limited time =/= "requiring a less time-intensive MMO experience". What you're doing here is making an argument that many try to make, in the same way that many make it. They mistake their own personal preferences as being some kind of "standard" by which MMOs should be developed. It's a kind of ego-centric conceit, really; as though somehow MMO design should be centered around individuals and their personal circumstances and desires. Your personal idea of what "reasonable progress" is just that... yours. It's not a standard to be followed. It's not a mandate to be obeyed.

3. People 10 years ago also had jobs and families, even careers, that left them with limited time to play MMOs. Those people still preferred the kind of progress and experience that Rokien describes. Why? Because they had different expectations than you. 10 years ago, people didn't have this "end game is all that matters" or "leveling to end game should be faster" or any other variation you can think of. They played MMOs for the experience of playing in a fantasy world via their characters. They weren't in a hurry to get anywhere, and so whatever time they could spend online was enjoyed simply by virtue of logging into a virtual world they enjoyed being part of.

Again, the idea of "not having enough time" comes back to personal wants and expectations. There is no objective standard governing "how much time should be enough", or "how long something should take to do".

I'd love to think that I'll never see any of those horribly flawed arguments you made ever again. But I'm sure I will, probably right in this thread. It's good enough for me, though, to know that I've hopefully gotten some eyes to open, and that some people have re-thought those positions and realized just how false they actually are.

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my god man I think you are taking this a little seriously

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Originally Posted by whoopeeragon

I'm surprised so many of you have apparently obtained a time machine to fully understand and experience the game to its fullest to be putting out such highly informative and indicative opinions on the exact nature of this game against others. Please do give me the number of the manufacturer.

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I kinda wish people would read your sig more :/. I hate these personal attacks lately, it's like "If SE won't give me my information, I will personally attack someone until I get my information".

I am a FFXI vet and I know there are plenty of others out there giving XIV a chance. Now based of what is being done and the direction XIV is going isnt something that I like. Now I will give it a fair shake but.... if 2.0 is an easy mode shit box than I know I wont stay and a lot of XI vets will leave as well. Regardless of what SE is trying to do, XIV is going in the wrong direction. Ill be honest I really cant see XIV surviveing past 1 year with the current direction yoshi is taking it, but as I said I will give it 1 year. So Yoshi has to get his shit together and not make mistakes (although I think he is making a huge mistake in the direction thats my opinion).

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Originally Posted by Ricky

my god man I think you are taking this a little seriously

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If this isn't the place to talk about MMO game experience and how it relates to 14 in depth, where is?
We spent the last 2 years patiently wating to see how Square could save this game. No duh we're going to take it a little seriously.

Come on.

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Regardless of what SE is trying to do, XIV is going in the wrong direction.

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You know it all, don't you?

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Originally Posted by Maxthunder

I am a FFXI vet

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Stopped reading there. Playing FFXI doesn't give you some sort of bullshit validity to playing this game. If you don't like the direction it's going, sure, that's fine. But the dev team, and the community decided this game head the direction it is heading long ago. They released the polls and we gave our answers. The community asked for this game.

Also lol at the people saying 1.xx was unique but 2.0 isn't. I guess Tanaka's terrible ideas were what make a game truly unique.

Abused-wife mentality or something like that

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Originally Posted by Maxthunder

I am a FFXI vet and I know there are plenty of others out there giving XIV a chance. Now based of what is being done and the direction XIV is going isnt something that I like. Now I will give it a fair shake but.... if 2.0 is an easy mode shit box than I know I wont stay and a lot of XI vets will leave as well. Regardless of what SE is trying to do, XIV is going in the wrong direction. Ill be honest I really cant see XIV surviveing past 1 year with the current direction yoshi is taking it, but as I said I will give it 1 year. So Yoshi has to get his shit together and not make mistakes (although I think he is making a huge mistake in the direction thats my opinion).

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I still can't see this as a valid argument... Why does everyone want an updated FFXI? FFXI is still up and running, we can always choose to go play that.

Like it or not, no game will ever make you feel like XI did. Not because it was better or unique, but because it was probably the first MMO you played that really stuck with you. Unquestionably, there are people out there who feel the same way about EQ and WoW.

Every day I read these forums and people are constantly whining about nitpicky bullshit like backpedaling and a PC-Friendly UI. How is this remotely constructive in building a community or offering feedback? Especially since everything we're arguing about is almost entirely speculative at this point.

"Industry Standards" are a double-edged sword; you offer mass-appeal in your game's functionality, but there needs to be a twist in offering a unique and enjoyable experience. This is where XI shined, and it's likely that ARR will shine in a similar way.

I sort of lost my train of thought... Either way, we can't keep looking through our nostalgia goggles forever. Most of us who've played XI aren't playing it anymore for a reason. Why do we want to be spoon-fed the same gameplay that we've already moved past?

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

Stopped reading there. Playing FFXI doesn't give you some sort of bullshit validity to playing this game. If you don't like the direction it's going, sure, that's fine. But the dev team, and the community decided this game head the direction it is heading long ago. They released the polls and we gave our answers. The community asked for this game.

Also lol at the people saying 1.xx was unique but 2.0 isn't. I guess Tanaka's terrible ideas were what make a game truly unique.

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Oh God... Have my babies, please.

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Originally Posted by Ruisu

Stopped reading there. Playing FFXI doesn't give you some sort of bullshit validity to playing this game. If you don't like the direction it's going, sure, that's fine. But the dev team, and the community decided this game head the direction it is heading long ago. They released the polls and we gave our answers. The community asked for this game.

Also lol at the people saying 1.xx was unique but 2.0 isn't. I guess Tanaka's terrible ideas were what make a game truly unique.

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most of tanaka's ideas were great, they were just incomplete and broken. the game failed from lack of content and a broken game not cause of the type of game it was. the problem then was they gave everyone power of voice and reality is it isn't going to help the game. if they really listened to all the people on just forums the game won't last a year.

tanaka. lets see, 16man party grinds, now quests and dungeons will be our meat. total 360 of a mmo.
the polls are like going to a mind reading show or telepathy program or ghosts see'er. you got what you wanted from it, they were vague questions that didn't ask you what you really wanted. it's not like it asked hey do you want casuals to eat a dick or hardcore /vote. they already had a vision for the most part and the questions were irrelevant to it's direction.

also the community? most players play mmo's they don't vote. obviously they still keep going more and more casual so that means companies are still making more money this way from sheer numbers or something. but it's also obvious that the mmo's are dying out much quicker right? not sure what that tells people.

in the end i think ffxiv still has a chance to be great they may 180 sneak attack and make it much more of what ffxi had little by little and that was my only hope. so in the end this will be there last chance at 2.0 to show us they care even a little about the people who have been mmo'ing for something more then just casual play.

Sadly, it's the world we live in. Games, and entertainment in general, has become so expensive to make that companies as a rule don't dare to gamble on something unique. What percentage of games are not sequels or spin-offs from other games, movies, books or any other existing content? What percentage of movies?

While I suppose it is true that creativity has always come from the fringes and in small scale, we now live in an age where that is all but drowned out.

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Originally Posted by strallaalaa

most of tanaka's ideas were great, they were just incomplete and broken. the game failed from lack of content and a broken game not cause of the type of game it was. the problem then was they gave everyone power of voice and reality is it isn't going to help the game. if they really listened to all the people on just forums the game won't last a year.

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No, they were not. His ideas made a lot of games very tedious (Chrono Cross, Xenogears, and obviously FFXI.) While they were good games, they weren't because of his ideas. His ideas are what bogged most of those games down, actually. FFXIV failed for a number of reasons, bad UI, bad design, lack of identity in classes, etc. THM could fucking solo Dodore for christ's sake. Tanaka was also very much against player opinions on something, and that was something that followed from FFXI as well.

"HEY THIS SUCKS FIX IT" No it's working as intended! Why don't you realize my visiooon?!

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Originally Posted by strallaalaa

tanaka. lets see, 16man party grinds, now quests and dungeons will be our meat. total 360 of a mmo.
the polls are like going to a mind reading show or telepathy program or ghosts see'er. you got what you wanted from it, they were vague questions that didn't ask you what you really wanted. it's not like it asked hey do you want casuals to eat a dick or hardcore /vote. they already had a vision for the most part and the questions were irrelevant to it's direction.

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Oh boy, 16 people charging onto one crab does not look completely absurd and ridiculous. Also sticking around one small square foot in the entire map as compared to the exploration that questing can give you. and dungeons too. No no no, camping crabs for hours on end is FAR more enjoyable than that.

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Originally Posted by strallaalaa

also the community? most players play mmo's they don't vote. obviously they still keep going more and more casual so that means companies are still making more money this way from sheer numbers or something. but it's also obvious that the mmo's are dying out much quicker right? not sure what that tells people.

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Look up the votes from 2011. The community voted for this game to turn out the way it did. Deal with it.

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Originally Posted by strallaalaa

in the end i think ffxiv still has a chance to be great they may 180 sneak attack and make it much more of what ffxi had little by little and that was my only hope. so in the end this will be there last chance at 2.0 to show us they care even a little about the people who have been mmo'ing for something more then just casual play.

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They're already bogging XIV down with bad XI ideas, like Level caps. However, yes, they can take great ideas from FFXI as well, but a lot of what people are asking for are asinine time sinks and arbitrary walls like Maat caps.

Why does FFXI need to be the subject that we keep coming back to in this discussion? I'd like to point out first, a really large majority of the player base --or at least the player base at the first couple of player polls-- do not discuss on the official forums. This is a voice that will not be heard by many who frequent here. Maybe it's a case of out of sight; out of mind, but they are out there.

However, let's get back to why we bring up FFXI so much. This is something I've learned through the process of this game failing and on the road to being redeveloped. I've noticed, in the beginning, that I was looking quite forward to their next installment and felt like a kid again. I remembered running through Sarutabaruta leveling my BLM and it being the first Summerfest killing Rabai and running to the zone lines away from Yaguto. Then later, probably a week later knowing FFXI's progression, gathering all the BLM I could find to kill worms in The Maze of Shakhrami and warning them to be very conservative on using Stonega as it might hit another worm or Goblin with it's back turned.

I thought of these things then I played FFXIV. Maybe not for the same reasons, but I was incredibly let down. The game changed and was being salvaged with a new Director/Producer then an outline was made which completely changed what I had originally visioned the game to be and the feeling it would give me. However, I started to think differently than how I see most other players think. I thought of why I didn't feel the same way as I anticipated, rather than, what the game was or wasn't doing to make me feel how I wanted to feel. Then I remembered, I'm not a kid anymore.

I'm not terribly young where I have more free time and use that time to have more fun and form lasting impressions on a game as I would now. This is what we call nostalgia. Things are always better when you were younger. All of the, "In my day..." tales have a point to them indirectly and that point is, things are just way more fun when you are young. Understanding this was the best lesson going into ARR or any other MMO new to the market. I think if people just started to accept FFXIV is never going to give you the same feelings your last MMO gave you, we can have a discussion that holds ideas with more substance and creativity.

You will never get that feeling you got 10 years ago back, ever. You are not who you were 10 years ago. You just need to let that go and grow with whats new.

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

This is what we call nostalgia.

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As right as you are, brace for the shitstorm.

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However, let's get back to why we bring up FFXI so much. This is something I've learned through the process of this game failing and on the road to being redeveloped. I've noticed, in the beginning, that I was looking quite forward to their next installment and felt like a kid again. I remembered running through Sarutabaruta leveling my BLM and it being the first Summerfest killing Rabai and running to the zone lines away from Yaguto. Then later, probably a week later knowing FFXI's progression, gathering all the BLM I could find to kill worms in The Maze of Shakhrami and warning them to be very conservative on using Stonega as it might hit another worm or Goblin with it's back turned.

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the rush of nastalgia made my head explode. i rmember using my lil scoop to get the goldfish...o man... i can think about my 8 years of FFXI experience all day.

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Originally Posted by BruceyBruceyBangBang

-blah-.

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This thread isn't about ffxi, I just brought it up as a point. Though to get to your point, FFXI is still there, i can log on right now if i wanted to and get the same feeling as I did a year or so ago. It's not about "nostalgia" for one FFXI is still there, and I can play it. I've never asked FFXIV to be like FFXI, I've only stated and asked WHY THE HELL DIDN'T THEY DO IT AS THERE BASE FOR 1.0 or 2.0! Instead of other games that don't last, do I even have to name them?

The only thing I want back from FFXI is not the world, not the characters, but the community and the sense of adventure. These other mmos don't let you have that adventure for reasons; Quest hubs, Big Question mark markers, level of mobs, ! THIS MOB AGROS DON'T GO NEAR IT!, instances everywhere. It's not an adventure if the company is telling you where to go and what to do. FFXI didn't hold your hand, Galaxies didn't hold your hand. Every mmo now, doesn't let you go off the beaten path, because now you can complete an mmo by completing each area. Completed this area? AWESOME, go to the next and complete that.

This is why I'm REALLY looking forward to archage(though sadly it will be another 2 years before it gets over here, because that's how korean mmos work).

Sure mobs were tedious to grind, but so are quests, and even more so in my opinion, because you are still killing mobs, but you have to put in that extra leg work, also they tell you what to kill not you asking, would it be better to kill this or this at my level, what about other areas?

FFXI had it's flaws, nobody never denied it, people love ffxi for different reasons, some endgame, others the world, and me? Well me, it was the sense of adventure every time I turned it on, and doing random stuff with my friends, whether that be camp an nm, find a new cool place to hang out, story, finding random quests, farming, getting gear, unlocking areas, whatever order I want.

Now you are going to say, you can do that in 2.0, sure you can, but you know what is going to get my attention, because I'm a completionist, I see that question mark, and I have to do it, I want it gone! Also, it's not me going my own direction it's the games direction, yoshis direction, guiding me on what I should do, instead of me deciding on what to do.

FFXI is dated, combat is terrible, same with 2.0 (auto attack, blah), after playing tera, teras combat is amazing, and really engaging. Though as I said before, it's telling me what to do, guiding me though the game, just like gw2, rift, wow, any other game you can think of. I bring up ffxi for the reasons I said above, I could care less about the world the music, I just want another game that I can get lost in once again, that's what I'm looking for, and that's why I think FFXIV should be more like FFXI in hopes for that to happen again.


Lets also not forget that mmos now, are single player games with multiplayer aspects.