DRK feels super squish in comparison to the other tanks

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

A tank in current BiS has 271841 HP. Both take two busters of 350k about 60 seconds apart.

Buster 1:
Warrior mitigation: Damnation + Bloodwhetting
350000 x (0.6) x (0.9) x (0.9) - 22000 (from Bloodwhetting's Barrier) = 148100

Dark Knight mitigation: Shadowed Vigil + Blackest Night + Dark Mind + Oblation
350000 x (0.6) x (0.8) x (0.9) - 67960 (from TBN) = 83240 (if magical)
350000 x (0.6) x (0.9) x (0.9) - 67960 (from TBN) = 102140 (if physical)

Buster 2:
Warrior Mitigation: Rampart + Bloodwhetting + Thrill of Battle
350000 x (0.8) x (0.9) x (0.9) - 31680 (from Bloodwhetting's Barrier buffed by ToB and Rampart) = 195120

Dark Knight mitigation: Rampart + Dark Mind + Blackest Night + Oblation
350000 x (0.8) x (0.8) x (0.9) - 67960 (from TBN) = 133640 (if magical)
350000 x (0.8) x (0.9) x (0.9) - 67960 (from TBN) = 158840 (if physical)

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Ok so first thank you for actually taking the time to actually disprove my point.
instead of just giving me another flavor of "you're dumb and wrong"
So using your example I'd like to add on as I was typing this up I did realize that I did prove myself wrong in the case of WAR vs DRK
So again I appreciate you actually taking the time to prove me wrong here.

DRK is taking 17% less damage than WAR, if the damage is magical, in this example at least after the second buster specifically.

Assuming that the ending HP % doesn't matter so long as your survive, that 17% less damage from the second buster barely matters

However for the next minute until the second TB. You have one 10s 10% mit and TBN which iirc it's not a loss to use every 30s so long as it pops.

We'll assume the DRK banks an oblation charge for the downtime between TB's

So in the downtime between the TB's WAR has a 19% mit up for 4 seconds, and a 10% mit up for an additional 4 seconds

While DRK has 10 seconds of 10% Mitigation and TBN assuming something will hit you hard enough to break it between the TBs
so 10% for 2 seconds longer, which might be enough to cover an extra auto depending on if you time it right, but let's assume our Tanks are perfect at timing their mits

Let's say that auto's do 15% max HP damage for the sake of argument since that would be enough to break TBN in 2 auto's from the boss

with Oblation + TBN the DRK is at 98%

While WAR With Just Blood wetting is at 100%

Then the 3rd auto assuming BW misses this due to its shorter timer, and Oblation catches it DRK is at 84.5% while WAR is at 85%

Negligible difference

For now the point has been proven in the case of DRK vs WAR since the numbers are negligibly different

Honestly it could just end up being Git Gud
I would like that to be the answer because then I can just Get better

I would like to additionally go into PLD and GNB vs DRK in the same situations
for the sake of the argument and being thorough but I'm not gonna have enough characters in this post so they'll be separate posts

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Originally Posted by Exarch_Leon

The 15s cooldown is a lie. Due to MP regeneration limitation, DRK only gets 4 uses of TBN or Edge per 2-minutes. That's on average once per 30s. Oh and when TBN doesn't get fully consumed DRK doesn't get dark arts and misses out on damage.

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The 15s is kind of a lie, but it's also not what I was talking about.
TBN's cooldown only matters in niche scenarios like Abyssos savage's bleed busters, that lasted long enough for you to use TBN on the initial hit and a 2nd time to absorb the DoT damage.
What is more important here are Dark Mind's and Oblation's 60s cooldowns that make it very likely for both to be up on every tank buster.

Meanwhile Warrior's only extra defensive, besides the 40%, 20% and ~20% that every tank has, is Thrill of Battle, a 90 second cooldown that is unlikely to be up for every buster.
And that one isn't even mitigation, increasing your max HP doesn't reduce any damage you take and comes with it's own set of jank.

What should absolutely still be adressed is the 1200 MP that Dark Knight lost every minute when Blood Weapon went from 5 stacks down to 3, because that change did affect TBN usage negatively.

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

The 15s is kind of a lie, but it's also not what I was talking about.
TBN's cooldown only matters in niche scenarios like Abyssos savage's bleed busters, that lasted long enough for you to use TBN on the initial hit and a 2nd time to absorb the DoT damage.
What is more important here are Dark Mind's and Oblation's 60s cooldowns that make it very likely for both to be up on every tank buster.

Meanwhile Warrior's only extra defensive, besides the 40%, 20% and ~20% that every tank has, is Thrill of Battle, a 90 second cooldown that is unlikely to be up for every buster.
And that one isn't even mitigation, increasing your max HP doesn't reduce any damage you take and comes with it's own set of jank.

What should absolutely still be adressed is the 1200 MP that Dark Knight lost every minute when Blood Weapon went from 5 stacks down to 3, because that change did affect TBN usage negatively.

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If a refillable extra HP bar doesn't count as a mitigation then what do you call a none refillable HP bar like TBN?

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Originally Posted by The_User

If a refillable extra HP bar doesn't count as a mitigation then what do you call a none refillable HP bar like TBN?

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ToB contributes to your eHP but it simply isn't mitigation, this is not some kind of alien concept.
Unlike TBN it doesn't actually reduce the damage you take. It makes your HP bar 20% bigger so you're less likely to get oneshot, but you still take the full damage without additional cooldowns to actually reduce it.

Skill issue, the video below is before abyssal drain was buffed (before DT, which means it's easier now) and was min item lvl synced (3DPS, 1 DRK [me]) (full pulls). Min item lvl syncs you below normal so it cripples everyone :: SMN did not have phoenix in the time skip because of it.
DrK might have less sustain, but it can still solo sustain...

I would advocate that all four tanks be nerfed in mitigation and their kits instead.


https://youtu.be/zttiIWIZsaA?feature=shared&t=1849

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

ToB contributes to your eHP but it simply isn't mitigation, this is not some kind of alien concept.
Unlike TBN it doesn't actually reduce the damage you take. It makes your HP bar 20% bigger so you're less likely to get oneshot, but you still take the full damage without additional cooldowns to actually reduce it.

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You're implying the damage you take while ToB is active didn't have to go through your defense but it only have to when you use TBN?

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Originally Posted by Katish

Skill issue, the video below is before abyssal drain was buffed (before DT, which means it's easier now) and was min item lvl synced (3DPS, 1 DRK [me]) (full pulls). Min item lvl syncs you below normal so it cripples everyone :: SMN did not have phoenix in the time skip because of it.
DrK might have less sustain, but it can still solo sustain...

I would advocate that all four tanks be nerfed in mitigation and their kits instead.



https://youtu.be/zttiIWIZsaA?feature=shared&t=1849

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I'm pretty sure Abyssal Drain don't heal that much on single target nor raid boss in high end content

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/d5/a4/ViWAcnMw_t.jpg
BW is 2 layers of damage reduction and a shield which is 10%+10%+400 potency shield that is no less than 10% of your HP so there is no way that BW mitigated less than TBN.

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Originally Posted by The_User

You're implying the damage you take while ToB is active didn't have to go through your defense but it only have to when you use TBN?

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If that is what you got from that, you are literally grasping at straws to try and make them seem wrong. All that was stated was ToB does not mitigate damage. Nothing was said about the defence stat at all.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

If that is what you got from that, you are literally grasping at straws to try and make them seem wrong. All that was stated was ToB does not mitigate damage. Nothing was said about the defence stat at all.

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If ToB don't then TBN don't either. Both are extra HP BAR and both need damage to reduced by your defense first before it get depleted by that damage.



And I'm posting it here for a future reference. In case that other came to look and make them realize that BW didn't mitigate less than TBN like someone trying to claim.

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Originally Posted by The_User

If ToB don't then TBN don't either. Both are extra HP BAR and both need damage to reduced by your defense first before it get depleted by that damage.

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Yes and no. Just reducing them both down to effective HP does not tell the full story. TBN directly reduces the incoming damage whereas ToB does not. This difference is going to matter in some cases so it is important to not conflate the two.

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Originally Posted by The_User

And I'm posting it here for a future reference. In case that other came to look and make them realize that BW didn't mitigate less than TBN like someone trying to claim.

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Due to the nature of the two actions, one will be better than the other based on the incoming damage proportional to the tanks HP and how that damage is done. If it is damage done in the first 4 seconds, they are about even in terms of mitigating damage (not counting the BW healing), however, if some of the damage is done outside of that first 4 seconds, or if the shield is broken early, TBN is likely to mitigate more, again, not counting the healing. If you want to do some calcs yourself, I worked out that 400 potency heal on Warrior is about 7% of their max HP in healing (I checked with all my gear on and with no gear on except weapon, both came out to the same).

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Originally Posted by The_User

I'm pretty sure Abyssal Drain don't heal that much on single target nor raid boss in high end content

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The biggest change for lower levels in Dawntrail for ST heal was carve and spit heal gaining abyssal drain which was also not reflected in the video.
500 potency is still not nothing and it is enough combined with DrK's other mitigations given 60s isn't a whole lot of time as long as your cycling your mitigations. Prior to DT, in the video, AD was at 100 potency and C&S did not have the effect added, yet I was still able to self sustain even without.

For higher levels obvious the 40% mitigation free heal made tanking a breeze.

I do believe they need to rethink all mitigations because they put healers out of a job, and that includes outside of the tank role, so instead of increasing the floor I think we need to lower the ceiling.

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Originally Posted by The_User

https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/d5/a4/ViWAcnMw_t.jpg
BW is 2 layers of damage reduction and a shield which is 10%+10%+400 potency shield that is no less than 10% of your HP so there is no way that BW mitigated less than TBN.

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If you want to disect things so closely then you have to factor in the fact you can TBN twice in the time you can Bloodwhetting once.

I feel like newer player aren't used to playing a regular tank that has no super heals. Back in stormblood and even shadowbringers to some extent tanks 15s cooldowns weren't nearly as strong and tbn felt insanely good compared to Shelton, heart of stone and raw intuition. Endwalker made every non dark knight tank have a massive heal or 2. Dark knight was considered fine as is because tbn was considered cracked for a while until then. Dark knights major sustain issues have mostly been fixed this expansion with the living dead rework and buffed abyssal drain/shadowed vigil. I like that dark knight feels like an edgy dps tank that blocks more than it heals. I also feel like dark knight is way faster and more exciting to play than the other tanks. The lack of heals is a fair trade off imo, but I won't complain if tbn gets an upgrade next expansion to provide a mini heal when it breaks or something.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Back in stormblood and even shadowbringers to some extent tanks 15s cooldowns weren't nearly as strong

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Yeah, you know, now that you mention it, the 15s CDs were quite weak back then. On account of that only being TBN. (you probably typo'd and meant to write 25s CDs? :P )

Because yes it was Shadowbringers that turned the short-CDs into a "real thing" on other tanks than DRK, the idea being that they in fact had stronger short-CDs, but DRK could use theirs a lot more often (15s CD vs 25s CD or ~30ish effective CD for Paladin).

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Yeah, you know, now that you mention it, the 15s CDs were quite weak back then. On account of that only being TBN. (you probably typo'd and meant to write 25s CDs? :P )

Because yes it was Shadowbringers that turned the short-CDs into a "real thing" on other tanks than DRK, the idea being that they in fact had stronger short-CDs, but DRK could use theirs a lot more often (15s CD vs 25s CD or ~30ish effective CD for Paladin).

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Yeah 25s my b. Anyway the blackest night hasn't changed much since stormblood and back then it felt insanely strong. Now it's kinda outshined by heart of corundum, nascent flash and even intervention on allies because they can provide % damage reduction and healing. Tbn still feels incredible when it saves a life but it i hope it gets more interesting. It doesnt have to heal but maybe make it have alternative benefits for breaking it vs having it fade. Fade provides mana refund but no edge of shadow. Break provides mana and edge of shadow. Make the shield scale off the dark knights hp unless the target has more. I like dark knight being a damage centric tank with a strong shield + bonus magic resistance for the group. If dark knight can get 5 stacks of blood weapon back too that'd be great. Make torcleaver combo 5 parts that'd be sick. Also bring back the skill speed buff on blood weapon and be in heaven. Honestly if you want to make dark knight a drain tank like warrior just put abyssal drain back on the gcd. I feel like that's over kill and would rather they put life steal on blood weapon.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Yeah 25s my b. Anyway the blackest night hasn't changed much since stormblood and back then it felt insanely strong.

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TBN during Stormblood just felt more impactful in general.
Besides defensives being generally weaker you also had an abundance of MP compared to now, you had actual interplay between your blood gauge and your MP so the 50 blood on TBN break felt like a bigger reward than just a free use of a relatively bland oGCD.

Basically, despite it's issues SB Dark Knight was just a more interesting job.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

If you want to disect things so closely then you have to factor in the fact you can TBN twice in the time you can Bloodwhetting once.

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Do boss Tank Buster Twice in 25s so the second TBN isn't a waste too? Oh and don't forget the MP regeneration.

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Originally Posted by Katish

The biggest change for lower levels in Dawntrail for ST heal was carve and spit heal gaining abyssal drain which was also not reflected in the video.
500 potency is still not nothing and it is enough combined with DrK's other mitigations given 60s isn't a whole lot of time as long as your cycling your mitigations. Prior to DT, in the video, AD was at 100 potency and C&S did not have the effect added, yet I was still able to self sustain even without.

For higher levels obvious the 40% mitigation free heal made tanking a breeze.

I do believe they need to rethink all mitigations because they put healers out of a job, and that includes outside of the tank role, so instead of increasing the floor I think we need to lower the ceiling.

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Ah the enjoy your polishing turd cult. 500 potency vs what other 60s heals of other tanks is not enough and I don't think a healer should decide for me. If you got ball go make an All tank nerf thread [not that drk got a lot to nerf to begin with]

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

Yes and no. Just reducing them both down to effective HP does not tell the full story. TBN directly reduces the incoming damage whereas ToB does not. This difference is going to matter in some cases so it is important to not conflate the two.



Due to the nature of the two actions, one will be better than the other based on the incoming damage proportional to the tanks HP and how that damage is done. If it is damage done in the first 4 seconds, they are about even in terms of mitigating damage (not counting the BW healing), however, if some of the damage is done outside of that first 4 seconds, or if the shield is broken early, TBN is likely to mitigate more, again, not counting the healing. If you want to do some calcs yourself, I worked out that 400 potency heal on Warrior is about 7% of their max HP in healing (I checked with all my gear on and with no gear on except weapon, both came out to the same).

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It is the same. You don't take more damage when using ToB and you also don't take less damage [than ToB] when using TBN. The only real difference is 5% of HP BAR.


Assuming WAR have 10,000 HP and cast ToB, it change to 12,000. An attack then have to deplete the 2000 HP first before it can cause your permanent 10,000 HP to decrease.
The extra 2000 HP that you get from ToB act as a cushion and thus help Mitigate the damage you would received to your permanent HP bar.
https://thumbs2.imgbox.com/02/ce/C0K036dt_t.jpg


TBN is also a "Put an extra HP BAR as a cushion" before your permanent HP BAR but it can't be refill.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Yeah 25s my b. Anyway the blackest night hasn't changed much since stormblood and back then it felt insanely strong.

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Yeah.

I mean I get why the positive feedback about TBN led the devs to give other tanks "super mini CDs", too. And I get the idea behind DRK having the "simpler" one but on a 40% shorter CD, but since it also costs mana that doesn't really work out in practice, plus with the shield being based on the target HP not our own even on others, it loses a lot of its luster compared to the other tank CDs that don't have this negative scaling system.

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Originally Posted by The_User

Do boss Tank Buster Twice in 25s so the second TBN isn't a waste too? Oh and don't forget the MP regeneration.

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Yeah. The very first TB of FRU functions exactly like that.

MP Management = skill issue tbh

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Yeah. The very first TB of FRU functions exactly like that.

MP Management = skill issue tbh

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It is justify that we have to endured through the whole game for this?

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Originally Posted by The_User

It is the same. You don't take more damage when using ToB and you also don't take less damage [than ToB] when using TBN. The only real difference is 5% of HP BAR.

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You don't take more damage when using ToB, no, but you do take less damage when using TBN. If you have 10K HP, that incoming attack is going to do 2K less damage as it is removed before it hit hits the DRK. That difference matters as, if you can mitigate an attack completely, secondary effects of an attack, like knockbacks and debuffs, might not apply (completely dependant on the attack being mitigated). There are also scenarios where, if there is more damage coming out over a longer period of time, by having extra HP, you can keep healing into that extra HP for that extra safety, whereas with a shield, you cannot.

This is why I say just reducing them down to just effective HP does not tell the full story. There are differences between the two when you take into account more than just a simple, single hit and it might cause one to be more effective for a certain mechanic than another.

5% gap of TBN and ToB don't justify how DRK have to endured all these years.

MP management is a skill issue. DRK only problem in any content is when a healer is not present. In high end content you always have a healer and DRK has the most self mitigation tools out of all the tanks.

If we are talking about dungeons, yes DRK struggles when you are minimum ilvl for high end dungeons and for leveling dungeons when you have a bad healer. But it is nowhere near as bad as EW DRK for dungeons.

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Originally Posted by The_User

It is justify that we have to endured through the whole game for this?

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Do you want me to list every single fight where the 15s on TBN is relevant? What will you give me if I do?
Fact of the matter is Dark Knight has been part of every single world first clear since 5.0 except one, if its kit was as non-functional as your claiming I don't think it be the case.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Do you want me to list every single fight where the 15s on TBN is relevant? What will you give me if I do?
Fact of the matter is Dark Knight has been part of every single world first clear since 5.0 except one, if its kit was as non-functional as your claiming I don't think it be the case.

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You seem confused, Why would anyone need to hire you to prove the fact that YOU want to prove?


Fact is Dark Knight has been the most complained tank design by the player since 5.0 and I love the fact that THE WORLD FIRST HEALER shoved the fact that the living dead suck on your face and you can't say otherwise anymore.


There is something funny about the egotistic and self-centered handful of player base got slapped by the alpha.


In the 5.0 World First, DRK has been chosen because it is the only tank that deal dps just as much as GNB but TBN is far stronger which is NO LONGER THE CASE.


All this time you're just trying to say that only a handful of end game contents matter and the rest is no problem because it is something the casual enjoy not you.


But when WAR doing no healer Ultimate Clear you think it is only because small group of hardcore skilled godly player so it don't prove how the job is op.


Getting proud by polishing a turd didn't make you a badass it reflect your intelligence and reveal your standard.

Big sword goes brrrrrrr. Dark knight is a lot better with modern living dead and if i were to change it's defensive profile at all I'd make tbn a lower level skill and give it an upgrade that makes the shield stronger and gives blood price when it pops or expires. That way it's dps neutral or a gain to ise.

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Big sword goes brrrrrrr. Dark knight is a lot better with modern living dead and if i were to change it's defensive profile at all I'd make tbn a lower level skill and give it an upgrade that makes the shield stronger and gives blood price when it pops or expires. That way it's dps neutral or a gain to ise.

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And just like that one of the three flashes of pre ShB design left across 21 jobs vanishes in an instant

will SCH and BRD hold the line

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Originally Posted by The_User

You seem confused, Why would anyone need to hire you to prove the fact that YOU want to prove?


Fact is Dark Knight has been the most complained tank design by the player since 5.0 and I love the fact that THE WORLD FIRST HEALER shoved the fact that the living dead suck on your face and you can't say otherwise anymore.


There is something funny about the egotistic and self-centered handful of player base got slapped by the alpha.


In the 5.0 World First, DRK has been chosen because it is the only tank that deal dps just as much as GNB but TBN is far stronger which is NO LONGER THE CASE.


All this time you're just trying to say that only a handful of end game contents matter and the rest is no problem because it is something the casual enjoy not you.


But when WAR doing no healer Ultimate Clear you think it is only because small group of hardcore skilled godly player so it don't prove how the job is op.


Getting proud by polishing a turd didn't make you a badass it reflect your intelligence and reveal your standard.

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Have you considered the opposite point, if you believe there is such a vast difference between DRK and the other 3 is DRK not the one in the correct location

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Originally Posted by Reginald_Cain

Big sword goes brrrrrrr. Dark knight is a lot better with modern living dead and if i were to change it's defensive profile at all I'd make tbn a lower level skill and give it an upgrade that makes the shield stronger and gives blood price when it pops or expires. That way it's dps neutral or a gain to ise.

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LD would never getting any change if The Top player didn't help breaking the manipulative deception on that day.



And please, I get why some people might fall in love with it now that they get to taste what being WAR is like for 10s.


But this same OP and unnecessary enormous healing potency is wasted.


It isn't what the majority asked for, but rather something that one user came up with what he thought would be cool and post it, then surprise, surprise ffxiv developer who at the time got a waking call from the world first player decided to make a band aid rework which again, like what they did in the past, didn't fix the problem at the root. Walking dead is still here causing the headache for us whenever it got prevented by the healer. On top of that the other player began using LD absurd heal to justified and silenced DRK player whenever we say DRK lacking a proper healing tool.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Have you considered the opposite point, if you believe there is such a vast difference between DRK and the other 3 is DRK not the one in the correct location

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If so, please elaborate.

I never said the upgraded tbn should heal but should give blood price which restores mana upon being hit.

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Originally Posted by The_User

You seem confused, Why would anyone need to hire you to prove the fact that YOU want to prove?

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I mean you were just acting like there is no benefit to TBN's 15s CD, I proved you wrong and you acted like it didnt matter.
So I was asking if you want even more evidence of the 15s CD of TBN being a benefit of the skill.
Because it is.

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Originally Posted by The_User

Fact is Dark Knight has been the most complained tank design by the player since 5.0 and I love the fact that THE WORLD FIRST HEALER shoved the fact that the living dead suck on your face and you can't say otherwise anymore.

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What? Why are you acting like I ever claimed otherwise? It WAS shit. But I dont know how to tell you this but 6.1 was over 3 years ago. It is no longer shit.
It has tangible upsides of being the only invuln that doesn't really need to be timed tightly, its the only invlun that can potentially be a net gain in resources, and its the only invuln with failstates, something I think this game needs MORE of not less.
Its not the strongest invuln, nor does it need to be. It has its benefits and is pretty functional and rewarding to use.

I like what they did with it a lot, the only issue is they took way too long to do it.

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Originally Posted by The_User

There is something funny about the egotistic and self-centered handful of player base got slapped by the alpha.
In the 5.0 World First, DRK has been chosen because it is the only tank that deal dps just as much as GNB but TBN is far stronger which is NO LONGER THE CASE.

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Most of Endwalker featured this balance and I'm inclined to agree with it. GNB and DRK are very close in DPS with GNB edging it out slightly. In my honest opinion, the only way to balance the current tanks by DPS should be GNB > DRK >> WAR > PLD
The difference is GNB is a much stricter job and the balancing act you have to play to keep all your cool downs aligned, if you mess up even once DRK is going to be better in DPS, its just a much more flexible job.
Infact GNB optimization tends to take so long that I think people would rather just bring DRK over it for its free more immediate damage.
DRK is also generally prefered because it plays into downtime phases so well, while GNB cries tears of blood in downtime as gnashing fang drifts further and further into the sun.

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Originally Posted by The_User

All this time you're just trying to say that only a handful of end game contents matter and the rest is no problem because it is something the casual enjoy not you

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Not at all, of course all content matters for the playability of a job. I just think Dark Knight is completely functional and fine in it.
I dont think making DRK the best tank in low end content is a good idea, because then it just be the best tank overall in all content. It doesn't need that niche, especially when its already more than functional in normal content. You just have to actually press your buttons.

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Originally Posted by The_User

But when WAR doing no healer Ultimate Clear you think it is only because small group of hardcore skilled godly player so it don't prove how the job is op.

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I feel like there's a core misunderstanding here. WAR is not the tank replacing healers, I suggest you actually watch the vods rather than headline read and make assumptions.

I'll grab them for you,
Here's FRU:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uvYcjbGkYo
Their tank comp is: PLD, PLD, PLD, PLD
TOP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k65bhdogQKw
Their tank comp is: PLD, PLD, WAR

I recall a vod existed at one point of P12S also being cleared healerless, its comp also was PLD stacking. WAR shows up now and then but its never the central point.
Do not misunderstand me, WAR's healing tools are strong, but WAR really can't replace healers.
It requires a targetable enemy to heal someone else, Nascent Flash doesn't work otherwise. It flat out just doesn't offer the mitigation to survive things, while PLD does with Cover, Passage, and can even spot heal people in a pinch with Clemency. and in this case, yes I do believe these are just incredibly skilled players pushing Paladin to its limits, as well as highly skilled players on supportive DPS jobs that can pick up the slack.

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Originally Posted by The_User

Getting proud by polishing a turd didn't make you a badass it reflect your intelligence and reveal your standard.

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I mean being blatantly wrong and spreading misinformation is a worse look I think.
If you have problems with DRK's design, sure. I do too actually.

Dark Knight's core issues right now are its filler is boring as fuck, Delirium is way too similar to Inner Release, and its overly centralized to the 2m Meta.
Its defensive kit really isn't a problem. Infact I honestly truly think its the only tank that has a well designed defensive kit that expects thought of the player rather than mash on CD.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I mean you were just acting like there is no benefit to TBN's 15s CD, I proved you wrong and you acted like it didnt matter.
So I was asking if you want even more evidence of the 15s CD of TBN being a benefit of the skill.
Because it is.

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Benefit in a few end game contents? I've ready told you it is not justified.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

What? Why are you acting like I ever claimed otherwise? It WAS shit. But I dont know how to tell you this but 6.1 was over 3 years ago. It is no longer shit.
It has tangible upsides of being the only invuln that doesn't really need to be timed tightly, its the only invlun that can potentially be a net gain in resources, and its the only invuln with failstates, something I think this game needs MORE of not less.
Its not the strongest invuln, nor does it need to be. It has its benefits and is pretty functional and rewarding to use.

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If it don't change, to day I would be seeing you says it is skill issue.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

Not at all, of course all content matters for the playability of a job. I just think Dark Knight is completely functional and fine in it.
I dont think making DRK the best tank in low end content is a good idea, because then it just be the best tank overall in all content. It doesn't need that niche, especially when its already more than functional in normal content. You just have to actually press your buttons.

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If it matter then why can't DRK get improvement at lower level? It is not even the best in high end right now and nobody said it need to be the best they just don't like to carry all these burden so you guy can be happy playing high end. I'm tired of low standard.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I feel like there's a core misunderstanding here. WAR is not the tank replacing healers, I suggest you actually watch the vods rather than headline read and make assumptions.

I'll grab them for you,
Here's FRU:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1uvYcjbGkYo
Their tank comp is: PLD, PLD, PLD, PLD
TOP:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k65bhdogQKw
Their tank comp is: PLD, PLD, WAR

I recall a vod existed at one point of P12S also being cleared healerless, its comp also was PLD stacking. WAR shows up now and then but its never the central point.
Do not misunderstand me, WAR's healing tools are strong, but WAR really can't replace healers.
It requires a targetable enemy to heal someone else, Nascent Flash doesn't work otherwise. It flat out just doesn't offer the mitigation to survive things, while PLD does with Cover, Passage, and can even spot heal people in a pinch with Clemency. and in this case, yes I do believe these are just incredibly skilled players pushing Paladin to its limits, as well as highly skilled players on supportive DPS jobs that can pick up the slack.

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WAR have been doing something extraordinary since stormblood. Not because player is skilled but WAR's tool allow them to. You want to replace WAR in all those ultimates with DRK to see if a Skill is that really great that it can make it possible without OP job?

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Originally Posted by Oizen

I mean being blatantly wrong and spreading misinformation is a worse look I think.
If you have problems with DRK's design, sure. I do too actually.

Dark Knight's core issues right now are its filler is boring as fuck, Delirium is way too similar to Inner Release, and its overly centralized to the 2m Meta.
Its defensive kit really isn't a problem. Infact I honestly truly think its the only tank that has a well designed defensive kit that expects thought of the player rather than mash on CD.

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Like what? an invul and a short cd that need a giant sign and a megaphone to tell everyone please don't accidentally prevent it from active? or a relic form era ago that is now 10% and 30s away from being a copy of rampart? should I be happy that almost all of my healing is shoved to LD so I can keep it from killing me in place of my enemy?

What is it lacking in lower end content? What do you want from it that it doesn’t have?

Because if your point starts and ends at “I want it to be a one man immortal army” like the others then that circles back to my point from the last page, have you ever considered that DRK is the one in the correct place and the other three are just ridiculously overtuned

I've been asking for LD to lose it absurd heal and get rid of the walking dead since it rework. Dark Mind being a rampart clone and praised by high end raider who would kept use it to as an excuse to say that DRK is fine upset me. TBN being the only choice and getting treated as a skill check make me want to vomit. I'm upset with people trying to defense these poorly design kit. Oh and don't get me start with the enhanced unmend.


People need to stop defense DRK kit because dev somehow make it work in high end because it is one of the reasons preventing DRK from evolve.

Then explain what you want

Like “dark mind is his a rampart clone that people only praise because it works in high end”

Okay but working in high end doesn’t mean it doesn’t work in low end content. TBN being a check of skill is how it’s always functioned, like what do you even want out of TBN if it’s not how it’s literally always functioned

If your point is centring oh the entire collective design of DRK as a class is and hollow with boring filler and mismatched unconnected burst then you’ll probably find most people agree with you. But that has next to nothing to do with how tanky DRK is which is the original point of this post which is why people are confused about why you are coming in and going “I don’t care how you explain it’s tankiness it just feels bad” as if that’s remotely the same thing

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Originally Posted by The_User

I've been asking for LD to lose it absurd heal and get rid of the walking dead since it rework. Dark Mind being a rampart clone and praised by high end raider who would kept use it to as an excuse to say that DRK is fine upset me. TBN being the only choice and getting treated as a skill check make me want to vomit. I'm upset with people trying to defense these poorly design kit. Oh and don't get me start with the enhanced unmend.
People need to stop defense DRK kit because dev somehow make it work in high end because it is one of the reasons preventing DRK from evolve.

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So you want LD to be Holmgang? You seem like you REALLY envy what WAR does, have you considered just playing WAR rather than asking for DRK to be made even more similar to WAR?
I dont play Dark Knight to play Warrior, I play Dark Knight to play Dark Knight. Dark Knight has its own niches and advantages to Warrior, quite a few actually, you just refuse to acknowledge them or even play into them.

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Originally Posted by The_User

WAR have been doing something extraordinary since stormblood. Not because player is skilled but WAR's tool allow them to. You want to replace WAR in all those ultimates with DRK to see if a Skill is that really great that it can make it possible without OP job?

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Seeing as you didn't even bother to read what was written I don't really see a reason to respond to anything else you're saying. I will not respond to anything else here but to finalize this, There were 0 Warriors in the FRU healerless clear. The job isn't doing what you think its doing.
For the love of god, just play WAR if you want WAR.

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Originally Posted by The_User

I've been asking for LD to lose it absurd heal and get rid of the walking dead since it rework.

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So your idea of "fixing" Living Dead is to turn it into holmgang with a marginally longer cooldown? Yeah no. We had to wait long enough for Living Dead to get the facelift it needed for almost its entire lifespan. Abyssal Drain also took long enough to not be trash after they turned it into an ability and THEN merged it with carve and spit's cooldown.

The points most people can agree on are:

1. Boring filler. Most other tanks have 30s type skills to use between 1-2-3 combo. DRK does not (60s, 90s).
2. Delirium is inner release (and was merged with blood weapon thus causing 1200 mp to be lost).
3. Enhanced Unmend lol.

Beyond that I'd keep my expectations within reality.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Then explain what you want

Like “dark mind is his a rampart clone that people only praise because it works in high end”

Okay but working in high end doesn’t mean it doesn’t work in low end content. TBN being a check of skill is how it’s always functioned, like what do you even want out of TBN if it’s not how it’s literally always functioned

If your point is centring oh the entire collective design of DRK as a class is and hollow with boring filler and mismatched unconnected burst then you’ll probably find most people agree with you. But that has next to nothing to do with how tanky DRK is which is the original point of this post which is why people are confused about why you are coming in and going “I don’t care how you explain it’s tankiness it just feels bad” as if that’s remotely the same thing

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It worked in lower contents but just a weaker rampart that I'm supposed to be impressed because people keep praise it in high end and would defense it merely 10% mit. Really, having a weak rampart and a weakest short cd have a lot to do with how not "tanky DRK" is. The situation about TBN being a skill check despite having no alternative and no real decision making is too LAME, more so when people keep talking other DRK to except that.

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Originally Posted by Oizen

So you want LD to be Holmgang? You seem like you REALLY envy what WAR does, have you considered just playing WAR rather than asking for DRK to be made even more similar to WAR?
I dont play Dark Knight to play Warrior, I play Dark Knight to play Dark Knight. Dark Knight has its own niches and advantages to Warrior, quite a few actually, you just refuse to acknowledge them or even play into them.


Seeing as you didn't even bother to read what was written I don't really see a reason to respond to anything else you're saying. I will not respond to anything else here but to finalize this, There were 0 Warriors in the FRU healerless clear. The job isn't doing what you think its doing.
For the love of god, just play WAR if you want WAR.

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Show me where I written that I wanted it to be Holmgang? I love the fact that you're so proud to admit that YOU ARE IN WAR MODE every time you use LD!! Which is why I hated that.


I read and quote all of what you said and it isn't convincing one bit.


So thank you for confirmed what I've said that you're just love to polish a turd rather than calling out what it is.


OH YEAH NOT LIKE IT EVER DID CLEAR ANY ULTIMATE WITH NO HEALER EVER. POINT is WAR kit is good enough it allow WAR to do all that. Yes there are PLD as well but we're in the aftermath of discussion WAR mit vs DRK mit [PLD isn't the highlight so I don't mention them] which half way someone said Bloodwhetting mitigated less than TBN which isn't true, as if WAR is fragile than DRK. Then the goal post moved to "Hey you can cast 2 TBN when WAR can cast 1 Bloodwhetting so it is better" Oh for g sake. Like if someone can find a niche for these ability then it is justify to stay at it is.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

So your idea of "fixing" Living Dead is to turn it into holmgang with a marginally longer cooldown? Yeah no. We had to wait long enough for Living Dead to get the facelift it needed for almost its entire lifespan. Abyssal Drain also took long enough to not be trash after they turned it into an ability and THEN merged it with carve and spit's cooldown.

The points most people can agree on are:

1. Boring filler. Most other tanks have 30s type skills to use between 1-2-3 combo. DRK does not (60s, 90s).
2. Delirium is inner release (and was merged with blood weapon thus causing 1200 mp to be lost).
3. Enhanced Unmend lol.

Beyond that I'd keep my expectations within reality.

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Read what I said about LD above

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Originally Posted by The_User

It worked in lower contents but just a weaker rampart that I'm supposed to be impressed because people keep praise it in high end and would defense it merely 10% mit. Really, having a weak rampart and a weakest short cd have a lot to do with how not "tanky DRK" is. The situation about TBN being a skill check despite having no alternative and no real decision making is too LAME, more so when people keep talking other DRK to except that.

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How can you accuse it of being a weaker rampart compared to the others rampart while ignoring it’s literally a free mitigation on TOP of also still having rampart

Like dark mind is just straight up a CD that none of the others have equivalents to and it’s 20% in magic.

What does a skill have to do in low end content for it to ‘impress’ you