The new dungeon is still ENTIRELY too easy

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I think it's fine for people to want to play a game without being good at it. A lot of people genuinely play video games to pass the time; not necessarily to be good at them. While others play for a hardcore, sweaty challenge with mechanics that they can make spreadsheets and diagrams to solve.

This is an issue affecting some of my favorite single player games as well. They're moderately challenging, then casuals come and say that spending a day completing the game is too long and that it's so hard they need arrows to point where to go.

That's why I believe every game should have an easy mode and a hard mode, so it would probably be a start if they just embrace Duty Support as the easy mode and design it so that they carry people through the dungeon and "rescue" them out of mechanics.

Then they can make it so that without Duty Support, the dungeons are way more interesting.

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This!

And it would have absolutely NO impact on those who prefer their content to be more challenging.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

This!

And it would have absolutely NO impact on those who prefer their content to be more challenging.

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If it means we get a more fulfilling expert roulette, sign me up!

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

Have you seen the other side? LMAO

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The other side feels like it is comprised of the steamroller guy from Austin Powers.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Another way they could create skill expression is to give each boss an elemental strength and weakness. This would mean a Black Mage, for example, could spam ice attacks against dragons to deal more damage. They would still be able to kill them with their normal rotation, but "optimization" players would be able to figure out unique rotations for each boss that capitalize on the boss' weakness. They could even add physical attack weakness to certain bosses, which might make the melee combo on Red Mage worth spamming. And that would open up the ability for them to make new mechanics around this concept.

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But, that breaks how a job is meant to be played. Taking the RDM example, you would just spam your unenchanted melee attacks, completely ignoring any magic, which doesn't sound fun at all. Even for BLM, which would get hit less by this, would just spend most of the time spamming Blizzard 4 with Xenoglossy/Thunder/Paradox in the mix, only swapping to fire to refresh Thunderhead.

The game, as it is right now, cannot satisfy the whole weaknesses/strengths things as it would just break jobs and make them even more unengaging.

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Originally Posted by Striker44

Not at all. I just picked up 400 of my weekly tomes doing 2 Hunt Trains this morning. Add in my weekly 2 Alliance Raids and Raid Series, and I'll be capped without ever touching a dungeon. Expert Roulette is simply one possible way of getting your tomes, and it isn't even the most efficient one. You do Expert Roulette by your own choice.

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How I cap my main and all my alts. Be afraid to admit how many alts I have so I won't go there. Expert isn't worth the time or effort and the rewards don't compare in the least. For me I don't enjoy the new aoe spam meta so I clear and don't go back.

Dungeon difficulty is fine. The problem is dungeons by design are the same formula with different set dressing. The 7.3 MSQ was good in that it has the lab sequence with some different things to do than normal. Dungeons desperately need that too. I get that it's probably for dev convenience to save time, but dungeons are something everyone has to do to access all other content. It should have some variance.

Branching paths, different trash frequency, different things to do between bosses other than trash. What if there was a dungeon that when you clear the first boss you go backwards to a door that unlocked? It's not a huge thing but it's something different.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I think it's fine for people to want to play a game without being good at it. A lot of people genuinely play video games to pass the time; not necessarily to be good at them. While others play for a hardcore, sweaty challenge with mechanics that they can make spreadsheets and diagrams to solve.

-snip-

That's why I believe every game should have an easy mode and a hard mode, so it would probably be a start if they just embrace Duty Support as the easy mode and design it so that they carry people through the dungeon and "rescue" them out of mechanics.

.

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The thing is, though, that the game already does have an easy mode. Its called Dungeons/Trials. Those ARE the easy mode. They are pretty close to being the easiest things the game has to offer. I dont believe for a second that the ppl complaining are actually putting in effort. They are just used to being carried through everything so when something comes up where that isnt the case they throw a fit. Honestly the game is partially to blame for allowing that to happen for so long.

If you have made it all the way to level 100 and u still cant dodge simple aoes that youve seen hundreds of times then idk what to tell you.... the game isnt for you.

Im not saying u need to be good, im saying u should be willing to put in the effort. Noone that actually tries gets stuck on a dungeon and Ill never be convinced otherwise. Adding an even easier mode actually takes up resources that are better spent literally anywhere else

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Originally Posted by JadeCurtiss

What if there was a dungeon that when you clear the first boss you go backwards to a door that unlocked? It's not a huge thing but it's something different.

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They sort of did that in Matoya's Relict but they just had you teleport back, and back in ARR with Haukke Manor which they added a portal to because everyone just used /return.

I think it's less of an issue with players because they can guide a new player like they did in Haukke Manor for years, but with Duty Support a new player could become lost in a situation like Haukke Manor.

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Originally Posted by Flowerscody2

Adding an even easier mode actually takes up resources that are better spent literally anywhere else

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Not necessarily. They just need to implement modifiers they already have, like the Echo and auto res. It seems that the majority of people that want easy mode use Duty Support, so it should have the res buff you get in the last EW solo duty, and maybe applying an Echo stack each raise.

Then do some i don't know varaint dungeons, island sanctuary, side quests, new game+?

Decouple all dungeons/trials from MSQ entirely. In doing so, they could make them more challenging without it coming at the expense of the more casual playerbase. For those who were around, think Pharos Sirus but across the board (but now we have the trust system, so if that's too hard for some people, they have an alternative still).

Trusts already exist for the more casual player, so I don't see why MSQ dungeons/trials can't be harder, if those who want them to be easy, already have an alternative (trusts).

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Originally Posted by tsuchii

I DEMAND ALL MY MSQ DUNGEONS TO BE AT LEAST EXTREME LEVEL! *flips my bangs*
WHERE IS THE MANAGER???

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Are you serious?
People need to realize there's a middle ground between "i'm falling asleep" and savage raids. ff14 has no content for this, it's always either too easy, or incredibly difficult

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Originally Posted by Mercury_Grey

Then do some i don't know varaint dungeons, island sanctuary, side quests, new game+?

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new game + isn't content

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

Yet im expected to run expert roulettes for the tomes i need to get better gear, why is that?

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The roulette is there to encourage you to re-run the content after you've done your initial clear. This does not really mean that the content should be balanced around you or your competence, especially when the scope of that content is story content.

I sympathize, but you're always going to find a group of players that turn around and go "Too easy, too boring", especially when the jobs aren't exactly stellar. They are just far better off having an additional difficulty option (that much I do agree with), than what they are by continuously pushing the standard story mode dungeons. In premise it's the same issue of trying to continuously decrease the difficulty.

Edit: Either an additional difficulty, or like Bryson suggested and just decouple the content, dungeons etc., from post-story progress, then you can just go with whatever scope you want, and it allows for a greater degree of freedom.

I just wish dungeons weren't always a corridor thing lmao.

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Originally Posted by MayuAmakura

I just wish dungeons weren't always a corridor thing lmao.

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We've done some dungeons with different paths in the past and they just don't work. People take the optimal path anyways. Everything is a corridor of you draw a line through it and always follow the line. Variant is something different but maybe it shouldn't be? That said, I wonder if we would lose content over budget if everything was variant, because I'd rather not.

The new raid in Destiny 2 is literally "pick your adventure" style where you choose the order you'd like to do the boss encounters in. Makes it extremely open ended and lets players just pick the boss that has the stuff they want if they only want a particular item.

WoW gave us the Ohnarahn Plains dungeon last expansion in Dragonflight, same idea. Tackle whatever boss you want first (except final boss) and progress as you'd like that way. Did people DO that? No, we just did one big circle around the map because it's optimal. Doesn't mean the choice isn't there. Especially doesn't mean you can't. Do dungeons like these.

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Originally Posted by BlisteringFrost

The new raid in Destiny 2 is literally "pick your adventure" style where you choose the order you'd like to do the boss encounters in. Makes it extremely open ended and lets players just pick the boss that has the stuff they want if they only want a particular item.

WoW gave us the Ohnarahn Plains dungeon last expansion in Dragonflight, same idea. Tackle whatever boss you want first (except final boss) and progress as you'd like that way. Did people DO that? No, we just did one big circle around the map because it's optimal. Doesn't mean the choice isn't there. Especially doesn't mean you can't. Do dungeons like these.

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So this is better how?

Dungeon was piss easy, and actively harder with trusts because of how ass they are in the DPS department. To those who pretend you don't have to scrape people off the floor: you very much do. I can be on any dps job with raise on it, and I still have to scrape people off the floor in the entire dungeon. If I'm a healer, I sometimes see both DPS die to random garbage on the first mechanic, it's just kinda... bad. The dungeons aren't hard, but these are the same people who died to not-Alexander at the end of the Twinning, or the same people who failed the ATE in Seat of Sacrifice. Catering to people who play worse than actual children is impossible.

While trusts will be making the dungeons a slog, people who wanna have their hand held can follow Wuk Lamat or something - don't like that it takes 30min? Guess what, neither do the players that you would otherwise be matched up with. Suck it up.

Now try doing this dungeon at min ilvl and entering alone at Duty Finder.

It surely will be a bit harder than when you did with your raiding BiS gear and your static/FC full of savage farmers.

Bonus points if you play as healer and face a tank that thinks that tanking cds is for the weak.

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Originally Posted by Reimmi

Are you serious?
People need to realize there's a middle ground between "i'm falling asleep" and savage raids. ff14 has no content for this, it's always either too easy, or incredibly difficult

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The fact you didn't realize this is satire.....

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

So this is better how?

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Breaks the mold of "you only go down the one same path every single time. You have no choice." The meta slaves can have their speed run and people who don't care can still take whatever branch they wanna do first.

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Originally Posted by Mercury_Grey

Then do some i don't know varaint dungeons, island sanctuary, side quests, new game+?

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At least they do the content in this game instead of paying someone (which is against the TOS, but you know that right?)... :)

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

Dungeon was piss easy, and actively harder with trusts because of how ass they are in the DPS department. To those who pretend you don't have to scrape people off the floor: you very much do. I can be on any dps job with raise on it, and I still have to scrape people off the floor in the entire dungeon. If I'm a healer, I sometimes see both DPS die to random garbage on the first mechanic, it's just kinda... bad. The dungeons aren't hard, but these are the same people who died to not-Alexander at the end of the Twinning, or the same people who failed the ATE in Seat of Sacrifice. Catering to people who play worse than actual children is impossible.

While trusts will be making the dungeons a slog, people who wanna have their hand held can follow Wuk Lamat or something - don't like that it takes 30min? Guess what, neither do the players that you would otherwise be matched up with. Suck it up.

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It's a different game, but I can't help but think about the new 1 button rotation option in WoW that is supposed to be sub-optimal because it doesn't do any oGCDs or timed bursts or synergies buffs or any of the things that ought to make someone do better damage..... and yet, by the averages. the players using the 1 button rotation are performing better than 75% of those who aren't using it. Source: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SA6g...llularWarcraft

What that tells you is that the majority of casual players in an MMO is so bad that even forcing them into the most basic rotation is making them do better than those who are totally freestyling it, and not even the best players are able to outweigh the bad in aggregate in the non OBR group.

MSQ dungeons are supposed to be easier because it is story content. And I really don't like people pushing for more difficulty in casual content. There already is content for you. Go and do that.

I would not be against them adding Extreme level MSQ dungeons after the first clear of the normal one though. For people looking for something a bit harder. You can add a Minstrel's version.

The Dungeon is totally fine. We should rather complain about not having anything in between Dungeon and Extreme difficulty. Perhaps a hardmode version of important Story-Dungeons.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

Now try doing this dungeon at min ilvl and entering alone at Duty Finder.

It surely will be a bit harder than when you did with your raiding BiS gear and your static/FC full of savage farmers.

Bonus points if you play as healer and face a tank that thinks that tanking cds is for the weak.

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Seriously? It seems like you don't know how ilvl works. Things will hit harder and take longer to kill, but if you just do the mechs its actually exactly the same difficulty. In savage, it matters a bit more because of the enrage. You could just dodge mechs for 30 minutes straight in a casual duty and never be punished for it.

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Originally Posted by Dastan

MSQ dungeons are supposed to be easier because it is story content. And I really don't like people pushing for more difficulty in casual content. There already is content for you. Go and do that.

I would not be against them adding Extreme level MSQ dungeons after the first clear of the normal one though. For people looking for something a bit harder. You can add a Minstrel's version.

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Casual content should not be so easy that you can close your eyes and get through it. There should be SOME friction. I'm not saying it should be EX.

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Originally Posted by Dastan

MSQ dungeons are supposed to be easier because it is story content. And I really don't like people pushing for more difficulty in casual content. There already is content for you. Go and do that.

I would not be against them adding Extreme level MSQ dungeons after the first clear of the normal one though. For people looking for something a bit harder. You can add a Minstrel's version.

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There's a difference between easy and something being doable while barely looking at the game.

Good effing lord, didn't we just HAVE this thread?

It's perfectly fine for the casual content that it's made for.

I literally know people that play this game all the time and still struggle with new content like the new dungeon and trial.

People need to stop trying to build casual content around THEIR skill level and look at the big picture and how so many peoples skill level varies.

I liked the MSQ dungeon and appreciated that they tried something unique for the second boss. It's important to me that MSQ dungeons are used effectively as a storytelling vehicle, and this one felt successful in that regard for me. Unfortunately, that means its appeal falls off after the first run.

Perhaps a way to make repeated casual content more engaging is to reward good individual play with a special currency, which could be traded for dungeon drops or tomes. This feels like a more robust approach than finding the "right difficulty." I'm imagining something similar to the bonus points in the Blue Mage Masked Carnival. Every time a player uses a mit or an interrupt, they get some points. Avoiding vuln stacks could be another. Other examples could include successful DPS rotation combos, just-in-time heals, or keeping DoTs up. Giving a small reward for individual performance might keep some players more engaged on each run.

Honestly the simplest answer is to simply create a toggle-able "epic hero" mode that gives you x many free deaths and just call it a day.

It's a trust. It doesn't impact the difficulty level for party play at all. Let the people who are only here for the MSQ enjoy the MSQ. It has no bearing on anyone else's enjoyment of the game if the experience designed for purely solo play is reduced to easy mode. You don't even need to remove gear rewards, no one's experience is being 'ruined' by people getting free 745 gear when we've had 750 gear available for what, 4 months for people collecting tomestones?

If you feel like your experience is being cheapened because people can just progress through an MSQ dungeon without 'gitting gud' then I don't know what to tell you. You're probably a joy at parties. I mean I have a surprise for you - you can get waxed several times 'for free' during duty support for the trial.

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

Casual content should not be so easy that you can close your eyes and get through it. There should be SOME friction.

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Absolutely! As long as I'm the one who gets the define "friction." /s

Seriously, though, that's the problem with content intended for the entire playerbase, yes? The MSQ is the one thing all players must needs contend with (the unicorn, just-here-to-play-Mahjong players not withstanding, etc.).

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

Square, stop giving us boring fights where after the first run, it becomes just a slog to continue going through. The second boss of the new dungeon had me kind of excited because I heard so much about the "1v1" but it had like 2 telegraphed mechanics and required some job actions from healers and tanks. Literally nothing to it.

If you are going to keep pushing content out like this, at least give the option of a harder difficulty. I'm tired of falling asleep in my roulettes.

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You should just quit this game and go play FromSoft games instead.

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Originally Posted by SkankyRoe

You should just quit this game and go play FromSoft games instead.

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??????????????????????

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

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Dawg like, it's always Roegadyns for some reason lmao

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Originally Posted by tsuchii

I DEMAND ALL MY MSQ DUNGEONS TO BE AT LEAST EXTREME LEVEL! *flips my bangs*
WHERE IS THE MANAGER???

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Ok Karen, come here a second you forgot you meds. (joking obviously)

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Originally Posted by Altina_Orion

Square, stop giving us boring fights where after the first run, it becomes just a slog to continue going through.

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I'm not exactly sure what you are talking about is even possible. By the nature of discovery, ANYTHING they add mechanically, once you know how it works, will be muscle memory after you demystify the initial unknowns. What sort of mechanics are you suggesting they add that would overcome this? Do you mean totally randomizing the boss encounters so they never do the same moves twice?

All of the fights seemed a little quick.

Which I didn't mind.