Forked Tower: Blood Needs A Normal Mode

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

No way!
I realised the other day...
it's like when Seb Blatter ran soccer/football FIFA
The game itself I found interminably boring, and i always felt dissociated from this thing everyone raved about.
But I found reading and hearing about the corrupt shenanigans of octogenarian Sepp Blatter at the helm of $1 billion operation with $1.5B 'cash' reserves absolutely fascinating. He was in the news every other day. The outrageous wrinkly grey haired balls of the man! It was fascinating.
It was the end of an era when he left and soccer once again became an interminably boring parade of prima donnas with glass ankles and stupid haircuts, that I had no interest in.

And unlike FT, I can actually get involved in these forums. I'm not being glib with that last bit either.
That is the VERY real reality. I tried twice to get into FT. It was just tree people including me on one occasion, and less than 10 on the next occasion. Peak gaming time. It was absolutely hopeless. That was well into the event, you can guess I hardly speed ran my way to 20. From there do you think I was then going to make any further 'effort' or attempts to get in? Only to probably be called a sniper, not healed and left dead in the floor? No. Just total absence of motivation for that. Quickly forgotten.

No. These forms are the stuff they orbit is fascinating though.
I could say loads on that but I can't be bothered right now.

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I think you make some good points. Arguments rarely sway the views of either people involved, but they change the minds of bystanders all the time.

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Originally Posted by Gurgeh

The hypocrisy.
Take your own advice. Then don't even be surprised that people get 'toxic' (actually just angry) about the likes of what we've been witnessing with the game since post EW.

My real take, that actually there is nothing wrong. I react, go and have a cup of tea, you react go and have a monster drink or whatever, I react, and life goes on here or elsewhere.
You did disappointment me with that. Your not obligated to give a damn though. That's for you to react to or not.

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That cup of tea must have something strong, otherwise I don't know how you can keep up your diatribe against players who enjoy high end content.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I mean, they can. But here's the thing.

A lot of people who play FFXIV are not very good at playing FFXIV.

They are not very good at looking with their eyes, or being raid-aware. If they actually used their eyes and remembered basic telegraphs taught in Hall of the Novice, it wouldn't be an issue, but when you have players dying in dungeons regularly, or still failing mechanics like the gaze on Cat's Eye (A rank), it shows that people just aren't raid aware a lot of the time.

Even if they are raid aware, mechanics take prog. I could compare it to many Dawntrail S ranks that obliterate everyone present and leave bodies everywhere. If you learn the mechanics you can do them flawlessly, but many people never learn them or take a very long time to understand them. Voice callouts would of course accelerate that prog and understanding.

So the voice callouts are basically a way to carry them and by doing that it trivializes it for them and allows the clear rates to be higher and faster. It has nothing to do with the game not making the mechanics clear - it's easy to see if you actually use your eyes, read cast names, do 2+2 and hover your cursor over any status effects.

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Are you saying that Forked Tower is Hall of the Novice telegraphs?

it never should of been made to begin with....

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Originally Posted by Valence

Are you saying that Forked Tower is Hall of the Novice telegraphs?

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Get raid ready simply through a visit to Hall of the Novice!

That was the point where Jeeqbit finally changed from being overly positive, to pure comedy :)

I wonder how much of people’s dissatisfaction comes from forked being relatively inaccessible and how much comes from forked being inaccessible making it feel like the wider OC is building towards nothing

Like for example if a shade of what i suggested was implemented where spawning every CE in one instance forced the support fate to spawn which gave sanguinite (more than 2 btw) how much would that improve people’s perception of OC because now the feeling of everything leading to forked is partially bypassed because you aren’t blocked from sanguinite. You still don’t get the CLL experience but now progression doesn’t arbitrarily end at +1 with nowhere to go

More sanguinite from the support fates would be great, but still leaves no way to get the field notes and TT card outside of the Tower. I’ve seen exactly 2 support fates, so I have 4 sanguinite. lol

What about if zooped up support fate from spawning all the CE’s had a chance of dropping all of forked’s notes and card (but not the mount) but only if you spawned it from killing all the fates and not from forked itself spawning it

Regardless I was more thinking about if peoples problems were about the zone leading to a wall or the cap dungeon being too hard as being the actual problem

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I wonder how much of people’s dissatisfaction comes from forked being relatively inaccessible and how much comes from forked being inaccessible making it feel like the wider OC is building towards nothing

Like for example if a shade of what i suggested was implemented where spawning every CE in one instance forced the support fate to spawn which gave sanguinite (more than 2 btw) how much would that improve people’s perception of OC because now the feeling of everything leading to forked is partially bypassed because you aren’t blocked from sanguinite. You still don’t get the CLL experience but now progression doesn’t arbitrarily end at +1 with nowhere to go

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I think it is a mix of both, currently as it stands if you do not plan to engage with FT there is little to no reason to even engage with OC as a whole.

If we compare it to eureka where BA was the capstone you could still have fun and work towards something even if you never plan to set foot in BA. You can work your way through the elemental armors, you can work on your relics, spawn specific NMs for rare gear. BA was basically not needed unless you wanted to have a full +2 Armor set as well as the final stage of the relic (which didn't change its appearance and just gives bonus stats in eureka). And also the support fate for BA itself felt more valuable (actually helping the group inside BA instead of just giving everyone a flat +5 fragments/sanguite) both for the people inside BA and the ones doing it.

I think a lot of people (me included) would be happy if there was something, anything to work for. I like your suggestion of rewarding players for actually spawning CEs. And that way, as you said, it still feels like you're working towards SOMETHING and the progression isn't hard stopped at the +1 gear because you can't get any sanguite. But right now there is little reason to do much of anything in OC if you do not plan to engage with FT.

Hell, if they made sanguite more accessible through other means it would alleviate the need for a "normal" mode FT. While I would still prefer a normal FT that way there's a chance for EVERYONE to grab the +2 armor and work towards something. They already put the aetherspun gold in chests, why not have silver chests have a chance of giving you 1 to 2 sanguite and buff the support fate to like 20 and make it spawn the way you suggested.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Are you saying that Forked Tower is Hall of the Novice telegraphs?

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Many Hall of the Novice telegraphs appear in there, yes.

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Originally Posted by Gwenkatsu

Get raid ready simply through a visit to Hall of the Novice!

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Exactly. The recent revamp was really good.

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That was the point where Jeeqbit finally changed from being overly positive, to pure comedy :)

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I'm not overly positive. I'm just not overly negative.

And if you want to laugh over someone being advised to go to the Hall of the Novice to learn basic indicators, then that's a you thing? A person in this thread said they think that the game does not explain the mechanics at a glance, which is actually false. Forked Tower has more indicators than Savage or Extreme trials normally have, and those indicators are taught in Hall of the Novice. So what I said was perfectly logical and reasonable. :)

1. Tank buster indicator.
2. Stack markers.
3. Orange AoEs.
4. Adds.
5. Stack towers.
6. AoE Markers.

All these appear in Forked Tower and all of these are taught in Hall of the Novice. I didn't say this was the only thing they need to do though. I said they also need to pay attention to cast names, read status effects and be raid aware, but you obviously didn't read my post.

It would also be nice if the TT card was added to the sanguinite shop… pretty much everything you can buy in there aside from a couple furnishings already drops randomly from chests, including the 99 sanguinite shark mount which has an insanely high drop rate judging from both how many I’ve gotten, and their price on the market board! lol

But one of the biggest reasons I’d like a Normal mode is I’d like to go in there and explore… get the survey point field notes and hopefully the other ones too (5 total in the Tower). And I’d like the experience of using the special phantom jobs skills for certain areas and/or bosses without having the rez restriction over my head, or the chance to make a mistake that makes 47 other people waste their time. Those two things are the biggest pressure points for me about FTB as it is now. Remove those things and make it so mistakes don’t equal game over, and I’d probably find it fun to die a thousand times while learning what to do, like I did in Bozja! lol

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Regardless I was more thinking about if peoples problems were about the zone leading to a wall or the cap dungeon being too hard as being the actual problem

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What I miss is combat content that exists in between "N uncoordinated, solo players vibing" and "please join Discord, pencil in a run, and while you wait, learn your lines in the script, make sure you have the required costume, and please don't flub a line and get half the room killed."

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Originally Posted by Raim

If the mechanics in your game cant be reliably conveyed without needing a third party voice program to coordinate them you've failed at game design.

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the callout is literally just "dont greed" 90% of time, lol

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Originally Posted by ServerCollaps

the callout is literally just "dont greed" 90% of time, lol

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That could easily be typed out. So what you're saying is discord groups are pointless and raiders attempt to exclude casuals from an easy raid for no good reason?

edit: Wow I did not see that coming at all I am so shocked and surprised by this.

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Originally Posted by RuriStone

That could easily be typed out. So what you're saying is discord groups are pointless and raiders attempt to exclude casuals from an easy raid for no good reason?

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Role assignment. Group assignment. No guarantee there are important roles without it being organized. SE could potentially address that by making a UI where people "apply" to carry out key roles and join a specific alliance party maybe (so make actual alliances like in an Alliance Raid so everyone knows for certain where they are standing).

Getting enough people is another issue that Discord solves. There's no guarantee that 24+ people want to do it. This wasn't an issue with Delubrum Reginae because before Echo was added, it wasn't restricted by weather and you could wait 30 mins for it to match 24 people. It wasn't an issue with Dalriada, which I recall was duo'd pretty quick after release? So if SE is going to require so many people, it's going to make it harder to PUG without Discord. They could have a zone-wide queue system like all the Bozja normal modes had to help maximize the number of random participants.

A lot of the mechanics are actually telegraphed like in dungeons. But then you have to think, people die even to the last boss of Skydeep Cenote despite it being entirely telegraphed. It's just that with a lot going on and limited rez, the callouts are going to help casuals avoid dying 3 times. Discord really is to help casuals more than anything, because some really good hardcore raider would be able to work out the mechanics if they'd ever done content blind and learned how to use their eyes.

The reminder to not care about DPS is standard in this sort of content purely because the damage output isn't normally important. Most people's goal is to either clear and get the mount or currency rewards, or get the rewards to augment their gear. Either way, they're more likely to achieve that goal if they focus on mechanics over risky slide casting and greed, which is a common habit among players. To be honest, people are more likely to hear than to read in the middle of a battle.

Most likely if SE did the above things and also removed the limited rez it would at least help it be more like Delubrum Reginae normal though. If they even did half those things it might make it more likely to be pugged.

As it stands, the design doesn't make sense for an organized group OR a PUG full of randoms that aren't on discord and it's just strange that this error was made when SE has run this game since 2010, and let's throw in FF11 before that since a lot of their team worked on that too.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Discord really is to help casuals more than anything...

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Oh Jeeqbit. That's adorable.

I'm going to screenshot and print that and hang it on my wall. That way I'll remember you when I'm gone.

I would again, remind everyone here that nowhere did YoshiP said that this version IS the Savage mode.
In their mind this might as well be the normal and they thought we want a savage in top of this lmao.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Oh Jeeqbit. That's adorable.

I'm going to screenshot and print that and hang it on my wall. That way I'll remember you when I'm gone.

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I'm just being honest. Most casual gamers have Discord, so clicking a Discord link is extremely trivial for them. I realize there are exceptions, but if I talk to an average casual player in the game and ask them for their Discord username, they will have one.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I'm just being honest. Most casual gamers have Discord, so clicking a Discord link is extremely trivial for them. I realize there are exceptions, but if I talk to an average casual player in the game and ask them for their Discord username, they will have one.

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Yes, I have one. I lead mod a Discord. And having sampled Discords devoted to FFXIV I would never join another.

But I do believe you are being honest; it's why there is actual value in discussing topics with you.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

As it stands, the design doesn't make sense for an organized group OR a PUG full of randoms that aren't on discord and it's just strange that this error was made when SE has run this game since 2010, and let's throw in FF11 before that since a lot of their team worked on that too.

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Yeah most of this sounds very reasonable until you meet the raiders calling people leeches, snipers and anti-social just for accessing the content available to them in-game. I don't agree with basing how 'good' a player someone is on if they perform all the mechs in a normal dungeon correctly for a crap ton of reasons to do with irl disturbances, forgetting the dungeons, simply being tired from work or illness that day etc. It's just mostly bs gatekeeping that perpetuates this attitude that some are bad and some are good with the help of third party tools (I've played with both casuals and raiders and not seen much difference at all in their play, the worst players i've ever encountered were in pf joining my savage parties when someone in the static couldn't make it and I STILL gave them a good chance to play before giving up on them). You just can't know how someone will play in this raid in the OC till you're actually there doing it with them. If people are purposely playing badly then yeh don't play with them again no issue blacklist is a good tool but I think chances of that actually happening when like you say people do want the mounts, gear, clear etc are really low but the chances of people accusing others of being bad players so that they can make themselves appear to be better is incredibly high speaking from personal experience from playing with people online in competitive games for years.

Everything else you said though I agree with SE have messed up and are now losing even more subscribers. I think they need to play their own game in the West to see what it's really like being a player like me just trying to do stuff in this game because I would bet hugely it's very different to how it is over in Japan.
I believe everyone and anyone who can try this content should try this content in or out of discord (their choice) but it doesn't matter what I think anymore anyway since i'm leaving it behind now. I am just a faintly echoing reminder of how the game used to be or how it could have been if people were a bit better to each other.

Here’s a question more out of curiosity

Let’s say there was a forked normal. And let’s say this forked normal dropped sanguinite so now you aren’t hard blocked at +1. There is still the fact that the gear progression ends at +2. Forked also doesn’t have a story and doesn’t expand on OC’s non existent story

People say CLL felt like a cap off but was that because people actually liked the raid (this applies to dal as well) or was it because Bozja was fantastic at environmental storytelling, hell dalriada doesn’t contribute to bozja’s power structure at all. Like what would a hypothetical forked normal “cap off” in the zone for you. Or is it more simply not wanting to miss out on a dal quality raid

Reminder that Japan had the same issues and straight up cleared FTB less because they don't really do discord.

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Originally Posted by RuriStone

this sounds very reasonable until you meet the raiders calling people leeches, snipers and anti-social just for accessing the content available to them in-game.

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They shouldn't call people leeches or snipers directly. Because that's rude, and is itself anti-social. However, this happens anyway in the same way that some people will link The Balance and teach a level 100 opener to a sprout asking for rotation advice in Sastasha.

It all stems from the fact that many people are inconsiderate and are lacking in politeness and empathy - the ability to imagine themselves in the shoes of the person they are talking to and what their mindset and feelings would likely be and be understanding about it.

These issues are not exclusive to these mythical "raiders". It's just an issue with how some players behave and there's nothing we can really do about it beside knowing that if their behaviour gets out of hand, they will probably meet a GM.

That said, using "snipers" in a general way in a discussion about Forked Tower is fine. It's not a new term. We have used it in the hunt community for a very long time. In our spawning and conducting linkshells we will say "they sniped it". But we wouldn't say that to them directly, because it would be rude. Instead, we'd explain that how the community handles hunts and invite them to our hunt linkshells so we can share hunts.

Again, there are exceptions, where someone would confront them directly and say they sniped - you can't prevent all players from being confrontational like that. And this is in the hunt community! Plenty of hunters don't raid, or if they do they aren't necessarily good at it.

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I've played with both casuals and raiders and not seen much difference at all in their play

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This is exactly why the entire argument being made that discord is for "hardcore raiders" is a myth. You said there is "not much difference" in their play, and that's because this is a casual game in general, and most of the people joining or clearing via discord are casual.

Most non-casuals who do it are not raiders, but achievement hunters. These individuals do all the content in the game, to get all the different mounts or achievements, so they play pretty much the year round in many cases. They aren't even necessarily great at the game, but with enough attempts and progression, they eventually clear things or wait until it's more trivial due to gear/unsync/tank privilege.

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I think they need to play their own game in the West to see what it's really like being a player like me just trying to do stuff in this game because I would bet hugely it's very different to how it is over in Japan.

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The culture is mostly the same in Japan. Same frustrations, except they think the developers cater to the west. Same issues with Forked Tower. Same issues with hunts. Only thing with differences is really PF culture, where they only loot 1 item each in Savage and only if they need it, whereas we are greedy.

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are now losing even more subscribers.

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Last I checked Lucky Bancho, it was at Shadowbringers levels (900,000). So it's kinda lost the gains it had throughout Endwalker. The Endwalker baseline was around 1.2 million. Beyond that was due to the hype of it going viral, Endwalker's "end of the story arc" selling point which brought more people back to the game than ever before and Dawntrail release.

What I am looking carefully for is if it gets to Stormblood levels. That's the one to watch for. Through ARR, HW and Stormblood, its baseline was more like 600,000. So if it gets back to that and is there a lot, then it's a big decline. But so far, I'm not convinced it will go to Stormblood levels because I think most people that were gonna unsubscribe already did.

If you see people not worried about Stormblood levels though, it's because things weren't so bad in Stormblood. Nevertheless, Square Enix would likely notice that way more.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

They shouldn't call people leeches or snipers directly. Because that's rude, and is itself anti-social. However, this happens anyway in the same way that some people will link The Balance and teach a level 100 opener to a sprout asking for rotation advice in Sastasha.

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I meant in general when i've cleared savages not just this OC raid ppls play isnt vastly different. So if you are saying hardcore raiders are a myth in general then yes and it's what I was trying to say in the first place when I said I didn't see much difference. I wasn't referring to 'mythical raiders' when I talked about their rudeness I was just using raider as a term to describe the rude group who play their game with spreadsheets, third party tools, discords, min maxing and application forms. Who are not mythical because they're very much with us in the forums and you've been in the same threads XD

So you're saying I should correct myself and call them achievement hunters? (To me it seems like raider fits better when we are talking about - a raid -)

I think what might actually be more mythical is the presence of GMS in the game currently tbh.

we'll have to agree to disagree about Japan I think the fact they don't like to use discord as someone else said is a big sign they do things very differently.

I still believe Square has lost touch with it's main playerbase and they're confusing the main casual playerbase with raiders and streamers sadly or perhaps think it's a way to get in touch i'm not sure but it's flawed. When I first started playing this game somebody said to me that they played ff14 themselves so they had a great idea of what players wanted, this really sold it to me but I don't believe that's true anymore.

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Originally Posted by RuriStone

So you're saying I should correct myself and call them achievement hunters? (To me it seems like raider fits better when we are talking about - a raid -)

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It's mainly that if someone isn't a casual player, then you have to ask what they spend the entire year doing in the game. For many that's just collecting achievements or mounts.

In some cases it could be RP, PvP, hunting, Ultimates or MINE. But really, if people play the game all year round, they're more likely closer to an achievement type that just does all the content in the game or a wide variety of it, whatever it is, regardless of if they like it.

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I think what might actually be more mythical is the presence of GMS in the game currently tbh.

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They react to reports. It's really that simple. They don't patrol around the streets like a police officer. If nobody reports it, it does not get actioned.

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we'll have to agree to disagree about Japan

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My answer stems from seeing multiple translations and also interacting with them a lot on the cloud test DC. I made a JP friend there for a few days and we talked via translation. I've also had to convert things to Japanese in a server I'm in and I had to do a lot of research to understand their terminology, including reviewing numerous news articles that discuss the culture and drama in the game, and every time you realize that they're not so different over there.

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they're confusing the main casual playerbase with raiders

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No, what I think has happened is they:

• View casual content as spending a few minutes clicking mammets or doing a beast tribe quest.
• View midcore content, which we can define as spending more than 5-12 minutes playing, as Extreme, Savage, Chaotic, etc.

To be fair, Occult Crescent is actually in the ballpark of what people were wanting for midcore. It's just that Forked Tower having access problems for said midcore players is... odd, and is adding friction to doing the only enduring content they feel they really have, but makes sense if they view midcore as what I said above.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

It's mainly that if someone isn't a casual player, then you have to ask what they spend the entire year doing in the game. For many that's just collecting achievements or mounts.

They react to reports. It's really that simple. They don't patrol around the streets like a police officer. If nobody reports it, it does not get actioned.
My answer stems from seeing multiple translations and also interacting with them a lot on the cloud test DC. I made a JP friend there for a few days and we talked via translation. I've also had to convert things to Japanese in a server I'm in and I had to do a lot of research to understand their terminology, including reviewing numerous news articles that discuss the culture and drama in the game, and every time you realize that they're not so different over there.
No, what I think has happened is they:

• View casual content as spending a few minutes clicking mammets or doing a beast tribe quest.
• View midcore content, which we can define as spending more than 5-12 minutes playing, as Extreme, Savage, Chaotic, etc.

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Why do I have to ask what they're spending time on for a year? I don't know what your point is...I was just wondering if you felt they should be called achievement hunters not raiders but you were the one who brought it up not me. I'm happy calling them raiders it fits fine.

With regards to GMs well then the community do need to start reporting people more.

You have a relatively small amount of experience talking with Japanese people who more than likely do not represent the entire Japanese ff14 community it's not enough to change my mind but in your experience ok we're not so different. From my own personal experience of the West and it's community, from what i've read, watched and spoken to with people about Japan over the years I still suspect we are very different. Also I took an english lit evening course a long time ago with a guy who'd travelled from Japan to study we became friends he was very polite, friendly, caring and empathetic I doubt it's going to change your mind but mentioning it anyway to make a point XD

Making OC casual up till you reach Forked tower was either something they did which was just really strange or people are greatly overexaggerating FTS difficulty in order to get people into their discords which are probably dying down a lot after the disappointment in Dawntrail and how they are continuing to fail at putting content in the game that casual players actually enjoy not what they think casual players should enjoy. There is definitely some confusion going on somewhere or they're killing the game off on purpose like maybe they just don't care, maybe they have more important projects to work on atm. Either way they'll care when the money starts dropping.

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Originally Posted by RuriStone

There is definitely some confusion going on somewhere or they're killing the game off on purpose like maybe they just don't care, maybe they have more important projects to work on atm. Either way they'll care when the money starts dropping.

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They're working on an unnamed title that Sakaguchi's involved with and a Tactics remake, possibly one more. The CEO commented on XIV's population declining and basically said that everything is fine and Yoshida's experience with these completely unrelated games will loop back around to everything being fixed and everyone coming back.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

They're working on an unnamed title that Sakaguchi's involved with and a Tactics remake, possibly one more. The CEO commented on XIV's population declining and basically said that everything is fine and Yoshida's experience with these completely unrelated games will loop back around to everything being fixed and everyone coming back.

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Fair enough, good time to stop paying for the sub then. I might come back when/if there's something interesting going on content wise and they end wuks storyline.

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Originally Posted by RuriStone

Why do I have to ask what they're spending time on for a year?

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Because if they're not playing for a year then arguably they are a casual player. In order to be something other than a casual player, they'd need something that is drawing their attention in the game each day for a year. Thus, I gave examples of what those things might be.

And it's rarely raids, although arguably they've been ramping up raid production in the last two expansions so you could make an argument based purely on that being a higher % of the overall content.

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With regards to GMs well then the community do need to start reporting people more.

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Everyone passes the responsibility around. "Others should report" rather than doing it themselves. The reality is that if players don't care, then it's not a problem. For example, if someone swears and all 8 people in the party don't care, then it's fine. Why action something if nobody is hurt/affected by it? But if 1 person in the party reports it, then obviously they cared or took offense, and so a GM would action it.

Essentially, things that go unreported aren't an issue because if the player cared enough, they'd take the time to file a report. And that's how the GMs view it too - you can see this clearly when you read the examples in the rules.

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Making OC casual up till you reach Forked tower was either something they did which was just really strange or people are greatly overexaggerating FTS difficulty

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I don't think it's that difficult. As I've said, it has actual telegraphs that you wouldn't get in Savage and half the time wouldn't get in Extremes either. The issue is the coordination and entry. If they'd made the simple changes to the coordination and entry that I mentioned earlier, I actually think it'd have ended up like Delubrum Reginae normal, which actually has a lot of tough mechanics and had things like hot and cold, yet people got through all of it casually. It may have been a different story had they put limited rez on DR normal, because people died A LOT, sometimes most of the raid.

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There is definitely some confusion going on somewhere or they're killing the game off on purpose like maybe they just don't care, maybe they have more important projects to work on atm. Either way they'll care when the money starts dropping.

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It's just confusion and decisions. They are actually trying their best. Got to remember many of them are developers that worked on FF11 as well. FF MMOs have been their life's work; of course they love it. Even Yoshi-P who was only working on FF14 has now spent 15 years on it and plans to spend at least 8 more. One of the things they love more than anything is meeting players in real life, which is why they were so determined to get FanFest running again and attend lots of gaming conventions, which has been happening a lot lately to make up for covid. How about all those concerts they put on? There's clearly passion there.

I think the issues are just:

• articulating player feedback from a very fractured and noisy and diametrically opposed playerbase
• managing (they focus mostly on new content and ignore old systems and procedures seem to exacerbate this remaining so)
• developing (because while I sometimes say things are easy, if you ask someone to do 200 easy tasks it's quite a lot to get through overall in a workday and having a family to look after later on)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Here’s a question more out of curiosity

Let’s say there was a forked normal. And let’s say this forked normal dropped sanguinite so now you aren’t hard blocked at +1. There is still the fact that the gear progression ends at +2. Forked also doesn’t have a story and doesn’t expand on OC’s non existent story

People say CLL felt like a cap off but was that because people actually liked the raid (this applies to dal as well) or was it because Bozja was fantastic at environmental storytelling, hell dalriada doesn’t contribute to bozja’s power structure at all. Like what would a hypothetical forked normal “cap off” in the zone for you. Or is it more simply not wanting to miss out on a dal quality raid

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For me, the problem starts with OC's gameplay loops: it's endless zerging between FATEs and CEs, or it's endless killing of trash mobs. There is nothing "accessible" that interrupts those loops.

These loops are the same ones as in Bozja, but CLL and Dalriada interrupt them.

And unlike Calamity Bound, Eureka's capstone NMs are a slog to kill the trash mobs for solo, have other conditions attached to them, and drop special currency, so you have a reason to look forward to them and to rally people for them.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Here’s a question more out of curiosity

Let’s say there was a forked normal. And let’s say this forked normal dropped sanguinite so now you aren’t hard blocked at +1. There is still the fact that the gear progression ends at +2. Forked also doesn’t have a story and doesn’t expand on OC’s non existent story

People say CLL felt like a cap off but was that because people actually liked the raid (this applies to dal as well) or was it because Bozja was fantastic at environmental storytelling, hell dalriada doesn’t contribute to bozja’s power structure at all. Like what would a hypothetical forked normal “cap off” in the zone for you. Or is it more simply not wanting to miss out on a dal quality raid

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Not knowing what their plans are for the gear, getting the +2 would likely still be desirable for going into the next zone, or reclears of FTB. Or they could do the Eureka route and give the gear some special effects next time around, which would make it more desirable for me personally.

I actually did enjoy CLL/Dalriada/DRN and from what I’ve seen and heard about FTB, without the rez restrictions and mechs where one person can wipe the raid, it could be something equivalent to parts of CLL, Dalriada and DRN… you had the separate groups who had to split up and try to save more prisoners (so you’d get extra loot! lol), and you had places in all of those where Lost Actions were really useful, especially the trap detection. And more importantly, you had people dying left and right and that didn’t mean game over. Everyone was able to coordinate things in chat. I really had a good time with those and I’m upset I can’t just queue in with a bunch of people in instance and go explore the Tower.

I’m not against using discord for things, and I’m thankful that there are groups out there, because hopefully someday they can carry me through it. One, it’s hard for me to prog things I have to schedule, and then reschedule if it doesn’t work out. I learn best through constant repetition, and this doesn’t lend itself well to that. But secondly, it ruins the feel of the zone for me. How much more immersive would it feel to go up to the pavilion, put in your cipher and then you’re in a CLL/Dal/DR situation where it might be tough, there might be lots of deaths, but you eventually work together and make it through? The rez restrictions ruin that for me, the potential to wipe and have to try again next week/month/whatever ruins that for me.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

Because if they're not playing for a year then arguably they are a casual player. In order to be something other than a casual player, they'd need something that is drawing their attention in the game each day for a year. Thus, I gave examples of what those things might be.
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So you're saying...I'm wrong to call them raiders when I should call them casual players? And you base that on how much they play. So you think casual players are the ones being rude and excluding other casuals from the FT raid and you're saying raiders have nothing to do with it.

this seems to be something you cooked up in your own head though because from all the other conversations going on in the forums it's already been widely accepted even by the two groups who were discussing that it's a casual Vs raider thing ... achievement hunters weren't mentioned because nobody cares.

Nah, you're being intentionally obtuse. You can do FTB as a casual. The difference between the people actually doing FTB and the snipers is that the first group actively puts in the effort to organize and learn together, whereas the snipers are the type of casuals who expect to be able to leech off of other people's work.

"too much money"

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Originally Posted by 0blivion

Nah, you're being intentionally obtuse. You can do FTB as a casual. The difference between the people actually doing FTB and the snipers is that the first group actively puts in the effort to organize and learn together, whereas the snipers are the type of casuals who expect to be able to leech off of other people's work.

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Again with the throwing insults at people i wonder if you're intentionally predictable.

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Originally Posted by RuriStone

So you're saying...I'm wrong to call them raiders when I should call them casual players?

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You can call them raiders if you want.

What I was saying was that creating this mythical faction which just-so-happen to also be called "raiders" who gatekeep "casuals" with discord is a problem, when many of those "raiders" are casuals. For the most part, you seemed to agree that "raiders" are pretty much just normal players that mess up mechanics, so I was really just pointing out that's because they are all the same and nobody is gatekeeping since you had brought up gatekeeping.

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And you base that on how much they play.

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Casual by definition would mean taking breaks or not being sweaty and playing all day, so yes. So I thought for a moment, who do I know that plays the game all year round without cease? And mostly that is the collector/achievement hunter types, maybe some RPers too, not most raiders particularly. So the entire narrative that raiders gatekeep is some wild assumption that people make.

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So you think casual players are the ones being rude and excluding other casuals from the FT raid and you're saying raiders have nothing to do with it.

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Exactly. Plenty of the people being rude about it probably just resubbed/logged in for the patch themselves, and don't necessarily represent the leadership of a discord particularly. And just like you said, everyone messes up mechanics, even the ones you think are these "raiders", so whatever big words they're using they probably have got killed by mechanics as well.

I read after all the chaos went down in the other thread, Rinon's group still wiped later on because it was a prog group and wiping was expected. They were there to practice and learn together. Quite the opposite of demanding eachother know all the mechanics.

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this seems to be something you cooked up in your own head though because from all the other conversations going on in the forums

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Partially because it's going on in other conversations, yes, but you specifically brought up gatekeeping so that's why I brought it into the conversation.

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it's already been widely accepted even by the two groups who were discussing that it's a casual Vs raider thing

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It's not widely accepted at all. That's my point. They're all just casuals getting together on discord to clear the raid together. If any of them aren't "casual", they're probably "achievement hunters" rather than "raiders" and as we've discussed, aren't necessarily any better at mechanics or superior or anything like that.

The idea that they are somehow "better" than casuals or "gatekeep" them is just made up in people's heads.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

You can call them raiders if you want.

The idea that they are somehow "better" than casuals or "gatekeep" them is just made up in people's heads.

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Well originally I did call them raiders but you seemed to have a problem with it and started mansplaining definitions to me lol. When I tried to get clarification you didn't answer clearly.

You're taking my quotes out of context and dispersing the point to create a mental haze because you know you've not got an argument, each of the points that you've made wouldn't hold traction if you didn't.

I can assure I would explain it that way regardless of your character details and that everything is meant in the spirit of forum debate. The discussion about definitions was meant to be me just agreeing with you and adding an additional point from my own experience, so I didn't understand your responses initially. I nevertheless was just clarifying what I meant. I'm sorry for the misunderstanding.

I can summarize my argument very quickly though: nobody is gatekeeping and you're welcome to join FT runs via discord.

I understand there is a natural anxiety that people are gatekeeping. I had that too when I first tried to raid. I am just trying to teach people that this is something a lot us imagine, but if we join the discord runs they're welcoming. Of course there should be a normal mode, but the discords are trying to help make it easier to clear until then.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

I understand there is a natural anxiety that people are gatekeeping. I had that too when I first tried to raid. I am just trying to teach people that this is something a lot us imagine, but if we join the discord runs they're welcoming. Of course there should be a normal mode, but the discords are trying to help make it easier to clear until then.

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I definitely don’t have any concerns about gatekeeping personally. Especially when those groups are effectively the only way to get this kind of content done. For me, it’s just the hassle of needing to do it this way. I don’t want to have to schedule a run that currently could take hours for both instance hunting and weather waiting, maybe get to the second boss, then wipe and have to try again the next time I can find a run that works with my hectic schedule.

But really I just want that equivalent of CLL/Dal/DRN… I’m only going for field notes, TT card and the sheer fun of exploring the Tower. I don’t want to have to prog anything, I just want to go in and pick myself up off the floor however many times it takes to get through it. It’s the rez restrictions and the inability to just keep pushing through til you’re done that really makes you weigh whether the time you’re investing is going to pay off or not.

u say discord, but today i had an unfortunate event happen to me, i was in a discord where u have to sign up in advance to do FT prog, over the weeks i made it till boss 4 mostly deathless (unless someone in group causes wipes), despite that and signing up early and showing up 20 mins before the specified time, i was removed from party and replaced with someone else... they didnt really give me a valid reason but most likely they replaced me with one of their friend or maybe someone who is newer so that their ppl maybe can parse better or something i dont know, but yea this community really isnt as welcoming as it was pre endwalker and they only want u in to fill as bodies to reach their goals... and this was the final straw for me so despite me trying this is a very flawed system they made and i hope the game flops harder and goes in the trashbin, i'll definitely be unsubbing once my current sub runs out (i was already unhappy with the state of drk only raided and played for the few friends that still exist inside the game)

i dont think yoshi p or the devs will grow a brain anytime soon and things will remain stale as is