BLM Changes Are Fantastic. The timers were so annoying. Thanks FFXIV team ! :)

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

“Dont look anywhere just assume everyone is enjoying it”

Your in game vibe check is even less reliable than checking the listening posts

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he's not wrong though, it's no suprise the same few faces including yourself frequently visit the OF and comment on almost every single thread pertaining to jobs. it's not an insult but it does show you and people like you are for more invested in the jobs being a certain way and expressing that vocally than most players. It's true i know many people who feel like you that voice a similar sentiment in silence but i also know some people who are ambivalent, or simply don't care.

Nobody denied that there is people that enjoyed the changes. It was the fact that the other person went straight to “the complaints are a vocal minority if you go in game you’ll see most people enjoy it”.

Like that’s purely a vibe based check. There is like and dislike around it. When I said check the listening posts I don’t mean I’ve gotten high on my own supply reading my own posts and acting like I’m an arbiter of the forums who dictates popular opinion, I mean the other listening posts. You can ignore me

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Nobody denied that there is people that enjoyed the changes. It was the fact that the other person went straight to “the complaints are a vocal minority if you go in game you’ll see most people enjoy it”.

Like that’s purely a vibe based check. There is like and dislike around it. When I said check the listening posts I don’t mean I’ve gotten high on my own supply reading my own posts and acting like I’m an arbiter of the forums who dictates popular opinion, I mean the other listening posts. You can ignore me

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I mean again, it’s purely vibe check based but then so is your frustration here, again the amount of people that come here screeching about the classes changes is likely not even 10% of the player base that would consider themselves affected by the change. If SE changed everything every time someone on the forums yelled loud enough, the game would fall apart

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

I mean again, it’s purely vibe check based but then so is your frustration here, again the amount of people that come here screeching about the classes changes is likely not even 10% of the player base that would consider themselves affected by the change. If SE changed everything every time someone on the forums yelled loud enough, the game would fall apart

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That’s why I said check the listening postS (emphasis on plurality). The game would fall apart if every suggestion on the forums was taken on board but you cannot tell me that there was any extensive sentiment being pro these changes in EN or JP before they were implemented and this was anything besides square continuing their endless “if a class is less popular then rework it and then rework the class that became less popular because people meta chased the last classes reworked”

Like even the JP listening posts didn’t want this prior to the change. Opinions have swung around some but you shouldn’t implement a change few people wanted and then retroactively use some positive responses to it to justify it

I mean even a vast majority of the after change feedback was full of people going “I didn’t play it before but now it doesn’t feel so scary”, so that shows they didn’t really have skin in the game for the design of BLM and if they only tried it because they don’t find it daunting anymore how long are they going to stick with it? Will these people dump it in 7.3 when they buff PCT again

I don't mind the timers being gone but something else needed to be done to adjust the rotation. The rotation is still designed around the timers existing and so a lot of things just don't make a lot of sense anymore.

Fire phase feels boring and flat and too long, might feel better if Paradox and Fire 3 also contributed to Flare Star (and had mana costs/increased mana costs to compensate). Frost phase feels like it just exists to exist, would like some pizazz in there

Paradox in general just kind of...exists? It's a cool ability and i like it but it doesn't feel like it's doing anything important.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

I mean again, it’s purely vibe check based but then so is your frustration here, again the amount of people that come here screeching about the classes changes is likely not even 10% of the player base that would consider themselves affected by the change. If SE changed everything every time someone on the forums yelled loud enough, the game would fall apart

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I don't understand, so if people come into the forums to voice their discontent it should be ignored because in your opinion it isn't the majority of the player base? Even though there is no way to gauge the voice of the entire player base, and a lot of these discussions are based on group discussions in what you called "bubbles" that are purely "vibes". The concept of the silent customer is foreign to you it seems, you know the ones who have an opinion but don't voice it in this case it's not there for people to see on an open platform. There are plenty who dislike the change but continue to play the class because that's what they want, and there are also plenty who switched without saying anything.

I read some of the other language forums, and looked into the discussion on discord, this is not a popular change to existing BLM players, and people are only still playing it because it's strong. There a far fewer people who saw the changes and decided to actually engage to BLM after changes, and for the most part it doesn't seem like they are ready to commit to it entirely. Those are perspectives from my "bubbles".

JP forum is the only place where I kind of see a very even split of people liking and disliking some or all the changes. But if you use them as the standard, is 50% success a good thing?

No matter how you discuss this topic everyone is sharing their points from their own personal "vibes" and "bubbles" because there is no way to gauge "everyone's" feedback, not even SE can do that. The only thing we can do is share our experiences.

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Originally Posted by Aysin

I don't understand, so if people come into the forums to voice their discontent it should be ignored because in your opinion it isn't the majority of the player base? Even though there is no way to gauge the voice of the entire player base, and a lot of these discussions are based on group discussions in what you called "bubbles" that are purely "vibes". The concept of the silent customer is foreign to you it seems, you know the ones who have an opinion but don't voice it in this case it's not there for people to see on an open platform. There are plenty who dislike the change but continue to play the class because that's what they want, and there are also plenty who switched without saying anything.

I read some of the other language forums, and looked into the discussion on discord, this is not a popular change to existing BLM players, and people are only still playing it because it's strong. There a far fewer people who saw the changes and decided to actually engage to BLM after changes, and for the most part it doesn't seem like they are ready to commit to it entirely. Those are perspectives from my "bubbles".

JP forum is the only place where I kind of see a very even split of people liking and disliking some or all the changes. But if you use them as the standard, is 50% success a good thing?

No matter how you discuss this topic everyone is sharing their points from their own personal "vibes" and "bubbles" because there is no way to gauge "everyone's" feedback, not even SE can do that. The only thing we can do is share our experiences.

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Yes, SE needs to make changes based off their internal data and resources, they can take the forums into consideration but ultimately, their goal is to justify the development time spent on a job and if people are playing that job, sometimes that means the people looking for a complex experience lose out. Look at white mage, this class is not very complex at all but it’s still played so consistently in all facets of content that it satisfies the resources put into. This is in contrast to something like BLM which struggles to retain players over the years beyond its diehard fans. That’s probably why the class literally changes so many facets of its design every expansion, same with MNK, it’s always been played much less than DRG NIN and eventually the newer options also ended up being more popular, so SE changed it.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Yes, SE needs to make changes based off their internal data and resources, they can take the forums into consideration but ultimately, their goal is to justify the development time spent on a job and if people are playing that job, sometimes that means the people looking for a complex experience lose out. Look at white mage, this class is not very complex at all but it’s still played so consistently in all facets of content that it satisfies the resources put into. This is in contrast to something like BLM which struggles to retain players over the years beyond its diehard fans. That’s probably why the class literally changes so many facets of its design every expansion, same with MNK, it’s always been played much less than DRG NIN and eventually the newer options also ended up being more popular, so SE changed it.

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SMN is also another job that people complain about to no end but it’s numbers are always so consistently good compared to the other options that it shows the greater player base doesn’t really care how complex or how much depth the job has, if it’s fun to them, they’ll play it. Wanting these nuances is reasonable but people here need it understand it is not in the devs best interest to create a skill gap amongst their players than what already exist. Making classes more complex and difficult would just make doing content even harder. I think classes don’t need to be more complex, they need to be more rewarding and incentive understanding their mechanics. A class like SMN doesn’t have a lot of this but a job like SAM and RDM do. There are ways for them to add more to the gameplay experience but making the classes harder to engage with due to a perceived need for complexity is a recipe for frustration when players realize they can’t kill the boss cause other players aren’t playing their class right. And if SE balanced DPS checks around the average player, we’d have another wicked Thunder scenario where that fight basically had no check if they balanced fights around not optimizing class performance. So good players would be rewarded with easy DPS checks and bad players who don’t vibe with the complex rotations just get screwed. It’s just not necessary for the game to be fun and SE’s job is to make the game fun for as many people as possible. Sometimes that means people get screwed over.

How is SMN a good example of this. If anything SMN is an example of this design philosophy being a futile circle. Square saw that old SMN was unpopular and they changed it fundamentally to satisfy the idea that jobs shouldn’t have significant skill gaps. And its playerbase rose………until a new option came around in PCT and SMN’s playerbase collapsed again. Now that BLM got a massive increase to its power vs its complexity SMN has gotten even less popular. So what was the point of the rework? Because SMN’s popularity collapsed back to where it was before the rework and you can argue that it wasn’t even actually SMN’s fault, rather the caster balance moving around it. RDM’s current meta position is basically the same, it did nothing and suddenly became the most popular caster as SMN and PCT crashed and burned around it because of balancing changes.

How long till BLM’s playerbase collapses again because they buff SMN because SMN is the current red hooded step child? Balancing on player numbers is a futile circle that just destroys job design for the benefit of people who don’t care about job design, they just chase the meta

And let’s say that a 7.3 buff to either SMN or PCT or both changes the play meta of the 4 casters again then what? Do we change BLM again, do we buff it again and destroy RDM’s playerbase? Like genuinely where does this type of balancing end

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

SMN is also another job that people complain -

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I disagree, because every time a simplification change has happened it has been synonymous with an increase in power, so you can't justify simplification as a success metric when the high damage is one of the strongest factors people use to make the switch. This was true for SMN in EW, where is dealt competitive damage, it was true pre 7.2 for PCT where the damage exceeded all others, and now it's true for BLM where it sits atop the rankings. Now that SMN isn't dealing competitive damage, it is not played nearly as much despite being the simplest.

Another factor ahead of simplicity is utility, and this is why RDM (along with it doing more damage of course) who despite being a bit more complex especially this tier, still has a far higher use rate than SMN, who is on the same level as MCH (which is incredibly low on usage, output and utility). Along with NIN who's simplicity does not justify it's utility vs all other melee. There is massive historical evidence of people flocking to trends such as a fresh class or high damage which is why PCT still has a pretty high use rate, as well as BLM for current patch and of course VPR. And there is consistent evidence supporting people abandoning simple jobs if they do not offer the damage, which is the real reward the majority of people are after. You may disagree but the evidence is there.

All these changes have done for 7.2 is make BLM the flavor of the month and if the dynamic shifts, people will drop it again. It happened from the end of EW to the start of DT, it can happen again in the future. You bringing up SMN as the example is contrary to your point because it is the prime example of how the player base will abandon a class even if it is the most accessible.

I'm not saying classes need to be excessively complex here however, but small hurdles in the handling of the job's playstyle goes a long way into investing in the reward factor when playing a job. In my opinion every job should have some hurdles, as in more than 1, so that when the player overcomes these, they feel a bit accomplished especially so when it results in things like clearing fights, or high damage.

But now we have a problem of SE seeing the changes to classes with simplification as a success not understanding which factor actually plays in the use rate which misleads them into further simplifying other jobs, and now we're in a spiral of every job going on the chopping block for simplification changes in the hopes they increase play rates. SE should not make these changes in order to incentivize people to play a job, as now we're coinciding with lowering actual creative design in order to keep things in an accessible state. Setting aside the 2 new jobs, what happened to a lot of the existing jobs for the expansion update? They might have gotten 1 more action or so, most likely in the form of a transformation of an existing button.

If tomorrow you take any DPS job and turn it into a singe damage button, that's competitive enough and viable, you'll have everybody flocking to it. You'll also have a gigantic uproar everywhere how it's awful, but you'll still have everybody going for it nonetheless because most players take the path of least resistance. They want their loot and their clear. That's a universal variable that you'll find both in casual and challenging content.

In challenging content you'll also have class power and meta considerations, but in casual why do you think most jobs we see are dancers and summoners? And on the healer side? White mages everywhere, followed by sages?

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Originally Posted by Valence

If tomorrow you take any DPS job and turn it into a singe damage button, that's competitive enough and viable, you'll have everybody flocking to it. You'll also have a gigantic uproar everywhere how it's awful, but you'll still have everybody going for it nonetheless because most players take the path of least resistance. They want their loot and their clear. That's a universal variable that you'll find both in casual and challenging content.

In challenging content you'll also have class power and meta considerations, but in casual why do you think most jobs we see are dancers and summoners? And on the healer side? White mages everywhere, followed by sages?

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Forgive my bluntness but I don't think they made changes based on casual content, as in fact they outright stated for savage content to have extended periods of movement was the reason they simplified Black Mage. So in the interest of consistency and understanding the direction intended by the devs, I think it's only fair to compare same types of content. In this case we're looking at savage.

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Originally Posted by Aysin

Forgive my bluntness but I don't think they made changes based on casual content, as in fact they outright stated for savage content to have extended periods of movement was the reason they simplified Black Mage. So in the interest of consistency and understanding the direction intended by the devs, I think it's only fair to compare same types of content. In this case we're looking at savage.

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So why did they make PCT less mobile in the exact same patch

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

So why did they make PCT less mobile in the exact same patch

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Oh that's easy, they don't understand potency per second, miscalculated hammer vs standard rotation, and just assumed people will do what they used to while playing PCT, they did not intend to change the playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Aysin

Oh that's easy, they don't understand potency per second, miscalculated hammer vs standard rotation, and just assumed people will do what they used to while playing PCT, they did not intend to change the playstyle.

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So we should be trusting them with job reworks for reasons they can barely substantiate while we can’t trust them to understand PPS

Yeah we are doomed

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

How is SMN a good example of this

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Easy, because People play it anyway, they simply don't care much beyond the surface and thats the part to understand. Most players playing the game aren't as invested in job complexity and skill expression. They just want a comfort pick. So no matter how braindead the SMN class is. The job still sees tons of play

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Originally Posted by Valence

If tomorrow you take any DPS job and turn it into a singe damage button, that's competitive enough and viable, you'll have everybody flocking to it. You'll also have a gigantic uproar everywhere how it's awful, but you'll still have everybody going for it nonetheless because most players take the path of least resistance. They want their loot and their clear. That's a universal variable that you'll find both in casual and challenging content.

In challenging content you'll also have class power and meta considerations, but in casual why do you think most jobs we see are dancers and summoners? And on the healer side? White mages everywhere, followed by sages?

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Exactly

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Easy, because People play it anyway, they simply don't care much beyond the surface and thats the part to understand. Most players playing the game aren't as invested in job complexity and skill expression. They just want a comfort pick. So no matter how braindead the SMN class is. The job still sees tons of play



Exactly

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But it doesn’t, SMN is the least popular caster by a pretty wide margin right now

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Originally Posted by MangoSimulation

black mage got shot

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sTcv2_JqHSw

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

But it doesn’t, SMN is the least popular caster by a pretty wide margin right now

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Do you have an actual metric for that and please don't show fflogs

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Do you have an actual metric for that and please don't show fflogs

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Do you have an actual metric and don’t show a completely valid metric

SMN is the least popular in savage, it’s the least popular in FRU, its second least popular in juneo (surprisingly PCT is least popular) and it’s the least popular in dungeons

Like do you have a metric that disproves FFlogs

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

Do you have an actual metric for that and please don't show fflogs

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Why, may I ask is the log website not a valid resource since it is the only community driven source we actually have?

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Do you have an actual metric and don’t show a completely valid metric

SMN is the least popular in savage, it’s the least popular in FRU, its second least popular in juneo (surprisingly PCT is least popular) and it’s the least popular in dungeons

Like do you have a metric that disproves FFlogs

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FFlogs is skewed towards raiders and only accounts for people raiding who are more likely to play jobs that are better positoned, see 7.0-.7.1 PCT. It does not account for people who play the game but don't use a Parser and SE would obviously have more accurate data as to SMN's rate of play that extends beyond just savage. Another thing to consider is that we just got through a PCT dominant era and BLM just got a major rework in it's core gameplay loop and received a decent buff which will inflate the amount of people not playing the class. We need to wait for things to average out before making sweeping claims that SMN needs a adjustment because it's underplayed. Also Red Mage seeing more play than it in progression ALWAYS happens, no point in speculating why that is. This is all to say, that it's too early to say from a skewed sample size in the first place.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

FFlogs is skewed towards raiders and only accounts for people raiding who are more likely to play jobs that are better positoned, see 7.0-.7.1 PCT. It does not account for people who play the game but don't use a Parser and SE would obviously have more accurate data as to SMN's rate of play that extends beyond just savage. Another thing to consider is that we just got through a PCT dominant era and BLM just got a major rework in it's core gameplay loop and received a decent buff which will inflate the amount of people not playing the class. We need to wait for things to average out before making sweeping claims that SMN needs a adjustment because it's underplayed. Also Red Mage seeing more play than it in progression ALWAYS happens, no point in speculating why that is. This is all to say, that it's too early to say from a skewed sample size in the first place.

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Then look at dungeons and alliance raids. Only one person in a party needs to parse something for all 8 players to show up and even private logs record jobs used. If you wanna say that savage is skewed by meta chasers then that’s totally fine but how do you describe dungeons and raids

And we are now 2 patches deep into SMN being garbage because of the balance of other jobs moving around it. Do you not see the basically problem of the fact that they are reworking jobs around popularity metrics but half the time the job itself isn’t responsible for why it’s either popular or unpopular. How long till everything settles and we decide whether SMN is fine?

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

FFlogs is skewed towards raiders and only accounts for people raiding who are more likely to play jobs that are better positoned, see 7.0-.7.1 PCT. It does not account for people who play the game but don't use a Parser and SE would obviously have more accurate data as to SMN's rate of play that extends beyond just savage. Another thing to consider is that we just got through a PCT dominant era and BLM just got a major rework in it's core gameplay loop and received a decent buff which will inflate the amount of people not playing the class. We need to wait for things to average out before making sweeping claims that SMN needs a adjustment because it's underplayed. Also Red Mage seeing more play than it in progression ALWAYS happens, no point in speculating why that is. This is all to say, that it's too early to say from a skewed sample size in the first place.

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I disagree with disqualifying Logs as a resource simply for it being a tool for savage raiders. SE made the BLM changes based on the supposed increased movement that occurs in savage, and if they balance and simplify jobs based on savage we should look to savage in terms of balance and feedback also. And in all regards up to 7.1 BLM was the least popular and SMN was second most popular. Once 7.1 hit BLM became 1st depending on the content (PCT dominates ultimate for example). But for alliance and savage BLM was played the most already, for trials it was last. SMN lingers anywhere between 2nd or last spot not once ever was it the top.

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Originally Posted by Aysin

I disagree with disqualifying Logs as a resource simply for it being a tool for savage raiders. SE made the BLM changes based on the supposed increased movement that occurs in savage, and if they balance and simplify jobs based on savage we should look to savage in terms of balance and feedback also. And in all regards up to 7.1 BLM was the least popular and SMN was second most popular. Once 7.1 hit BLM became 1st depending on the content (PCT dominates ultimate for example). But for alliance and savage BLM was played the most already, for trials it was last. SMN lingers anywhere between 2nd or last spot not once ever was it the top.

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The reason you disqualify it is because it ONLY accounts for that content when SE doesn't only consider that content when it comes to their plan for jobs. An Example like Verraise is a skill that is powerful in savage however SE also gets alot of utility by allowing to work in content like 24 mans, this is an example of them possibly considering a jobs core savage use in a different context and im sure they have their own metrics for what they want with player engagement thats different from looking at savage logs.

SE also might look at the information, get the same data but apply a different conclusion. People said PCT was ruining the game, SE saw it as a job being played heavily and didn't care what it did to their planned content for the first 2 major patches. Thats the point here. FFlogs doesn't matter because what you're all trying to gleam from the state of the game using the resources from that sight is not the same metric and conclusions SE is even considering. They look at the game as a whole and alot of people on the forums can be extremely out of touch when it comes to jobs and general game design. Prime example, SE wants jobs to be easier because more people will engage with them, the community hates jobs being too easy because they find it hard to engage with in depth. If see how these 2 idea don't mix but SE keeps making jobs more streamlined and doesn't adjust the classes to restore their more complex gameplan?

It's because they're getting the results they want from it.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

The reason you disqualify it is because it ONLY accounts for that content when SE doesn't only consider that content when it comes to their plan for jobs. An Example like Verraise is a skill that is powerful in savage however SE also gets alot of utility by allowing to work in content like 24 mans, this is an example of them possibly considering a jobs core savage use in a different context and im sure they have their own metrics for what they want with player engagement thats different from looking at savage logs.

SE also might look at the information, get the same data but apply a different conclusion. People said PCT was ruining the game, SE saw it as a job being played heavily and didn't care what it did to their planned content for the first 2 major patches. Thats the point here. FFlogs doesn't matter because what you're all trying to gleam from the state of the game using the resources from that sight is not the same metric and conclusions SE is even considering. They look at the game as a whole and alot of people on the forums can be extremely out of touch when it comes to jobs and general game design. Prime example, SE wants jobs to be easier because more people will engage with them, the community hates jobs being too easy because they find it hard to engage with in depth. If see how these 2 idea don't mix but SE keeps making jobs more streamlined and doesn't adjust the classes to restore their more complex gameplan?

It's because they're getting the results they want from it.

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But square explicitly taxes RDM for ver-raise because of how it affects savage balance

They explicitly say they balance the jobs around savage

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

FFlogs is skewed towards raiders and only accounts for people raiding who are more likely to play jobs that are better positoned, see 7.0-.7.1 PCT. It does not account for people who play the game but don't use a Parser and SE would obviously have more accurate data as to SMN's rate of play that extends beyond just savage. Another thing to consider is that we just got through a PCT dominant era and BLM just got a major rework in it's core gameplay loop and received a decent buff which will inflate the amount of people not playing the class. We need to wait for things to average out before making sweeping claims that SMN needs a adjustment because it's underplayed. Also Red Mage seeing more play than it in progression ALWAYS happens, no point in speculating why that is. This is all to say, that it's too early to say from a skewed sample size in the first place.

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Wait for things to average out? Smn has been at the bottom of the barrel this entire expansion so far. All the people I knew who played it have swapped and forgot the job existed which is a damn shame. Its more a sad thing since there won't likely be any changes for it till 8.0

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Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

Wait for things to average out? Smn has been at the bottom of the barrel this entire expansion so far. All the people I knew who played it have swapped and forgot the job existed which is a damn shame. Its more a sad thing since there won't likely be any changes for it till 8.0

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This does not check out. Summoners are constantly in groups. Yes, not in high-end reclears. But I think that was the point of the person you replied to, that the devs can't just look at "Savage reclears" or "Ultimate progging" or even "Mentor roulette". The game is all of those parts.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

This does not check out. Summoners are constantly in groups. Yes, not in high-end reclears. But I think that was the point of the person you replied to, that the devs can't just look at "Savage reclears" or "Ultimate progging" or even "Mentor roulette". The game is all of those parts.

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If you mean daily roulettes maybe I'd see one but I don't even consider that a factor. As far as savage raids, ultimates no. I will either see a Picto (95%) or a black mage. There are many factors to support the low numbers but that's for another discussion.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

But square explicitly taxes RDM for ver-raise because of how it affects savage balance

They explicitly say they balance the jobs around savage

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The jobs damage is balanced around that in general, even if savage didn't exist. They value RDM's core utility in content extending pass savage. We've also seem them balance around this as well in the past. Content like the baldesion arsenal prevents you from raising from normal means which lets you know they looked at the idea of raising in general for that content and nerfed it to preserve it's difficulty. We also see this in criterion where certain classes have more passive stats to make up for the weird compositions that come from only having a light party since the game prior to that content didn't tune the classes for it.

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Originally Posted by Wayfinder3

The jobs damage is balanced around that in general, even if savage didn't exist. They value RDM's core utility in content extending pass savage. We've also seem them balance around this as well in the past. Content like the baldesion arsenal prevents you from raising from normal means which lets you know they looked at the idea of raising in general for that content and nerfed it to preserve it's difficulty. We also see this in criterion where certain classes have more passive stats to make up for the weird compositions that come from only having a light party since the game prior to that content didn't tune the classes for it.

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They have never, not once balanced things like potencies, or made changes class design based around content you referenced such as dungeons, criterion, 24man etc. That is the topic being discussed here. Since they changed the design and strength of multiple classes (but in this case we're looking at BLM) based on what effect savage and ultimate will have on gameplay, it falls to us to resort to resource and discuss around savage and ultimate. Otherwise, we are applying too many different standards, and the discussion will not go anywhere.

You can argue the limitations on raise and strength of party buffs in content, but they never designed the class design around this content and so we treat those as a one-off exception. Otherwise after the latest chaotic raid we would see nerf to NIN and SCH, and a buff to everything else. These are not the standard in balance and should be ignored.

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Originally Posted by Carighan

In which case, what would be your explanation? It's the job Yoshi P plays himself, is he getting old and struggled personally with the outdated design?

Like, of course it might be a different reason, but just "so noobs can play it" isn't actually something that motives a dev (other stuff to do, no time anyways, more pressing issues). In this case it'd have to be a manager who has a personal pet peeve and hence clears the backlog and prioritizes "Make Black Mage easier to play!". Otherwise it would not happen.

It could be a host of other reasons, but none of those would be something not communicatable by marketing:

* Fight design will no longer fit <-- we are here
* Future engine changes don't work with the internal mechanics on a code level.
* Something inherently broken about the implementation.
* Upcoming full scrapping and re-impelementation of the job requires some pre-work. <-- this is just about the only reason where I can see why you'd want to not talk about it yet
* Lots of player feedback how the job is annoying to play. <-- we know they say this independent of whether it's the actual reason or not, and they did not, so that's food for thought
* A Black Mage died, once, and Yoshi P took personal offense.
* Needed to rework a job, ran out of ideas, and nobody knows where the code for Scholar is kept so they couldn't do that one no matter how much the job could use it.

There's just no reason they would not just name, tbh. Except that one. I suspect that as always the encounter designers got the first dibs on every design decision, and they said "Screw Black Mage holding us back since Shadowbringers, take cast time off or be laid off" or something to that end.

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Old Summoner is absolutely a case of the second, as much as people want to deny it or argue otherwise. Having a job literally brick itself because of engine limitations is the exact sort of scenario that would necessitate a rework.

There was never a reality or timeline where Summoner made it out of Shadowbringers without a major rework, AND where encounter design would've improved as much as it has since then.

I'm also happy about the timer removal. BLM main for a long time. Frankly would've been happy with just adding a sound effect to it as an accessibility option but I'm not totally put off yet, I'm willing to see what 8.0 changes are like before I completely give up.

I never liked BLM, as it always felt incredibly cluncky and punishing. But DT version of this job is surprisingly smooth and pleasant to play with. I totally agree with opinion of OP of this topic. These ice/fire timers were atrocious.

Blm is feeling fun and smooth to play. With all the movement in these fights I think the changes were needed. The jobs playrate has boomed and it's fun seeing other peeps enjoying black mage.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

Blm is feeling fun and smooth to play. With all the movement in these fights I think the changes were needed. The jobs playrate has boomed and it's fun seeing other peeps enjoying black mage.

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Yeah that's true. Unless what people were saying, BLM increase wasn't just a temporary blip. Unlike Shadowbringers and Endwalker, you actually see BLMs again every so often now. The population of those playing them in raids has increased, and seems to stay that way.

Why would you have any reason to believe it would have changed in the short term when none of the casters have changed. Like easy overpowered job in 7.2 is still easy overpowered job in 7.3 and as a result is still generally popular. That tells us absolutely nothing

How many people will stick with the new rework when suddenly the class isn’t overpowered or something else does more damage for less work

Im still depressed over BLM

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Originally Posted by Carighan

Yeah that's true. Unless what people were saying, BLM increase wasn't just a temporary blip. Unlike Shadowbringers and Endwalker, you actually see BLMs again every so often now. The population of those playing them in raids has increased, and seems to stay that way.

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Right now, BLM is the most popular caster outright. It's actually dominating in EX5, which is weird. But considering it can delay cooldowns safely and even save ley lines, it does track. With SMN followed by RDM in a distant second and third. All 3 of those dwarfing PCT. The fact Pictomancer isn't used in EX5 is actually extremely scary to see, because the number one reason not to pull it is that it can't sit still for its 2m burst and drops its extremely short ley line window. The number 2 being that it feels atrocious. And from my own opinions and the opinions of friends, it somehow might be both of these. The class doesn't have enough movement for how the fight is designed and how players are expected to solve it.

It does harken to 2 points I've made. 1, the timers are actively holding the class back. We can see by its popularity bump that this is likely completely true. 2, the game is rapidly removing caster gameplay from the game.

While point 1 is a good point to have vindication on -- the class actually feels a lot better without timers (but could use more class to it, because the class was barely a class even with them before) the second point, that the devs hate cast bars, is extremely distressing. They need to bring back caster gameplay. Either that or just remove all cast bars, they obviously don't like them at this point. And also BLM will ultimately need something added. The class feels aggressively bad below level 90, kind of like how SMN feels bad below 86. And if this is all that BLM is to be going forwards, it truly is a hollow shell of the HW and SB iterations I fell in love with. I still hate the timers, but I love the casting.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Taranok

Snip - All 3 of those dwarfing PCT. The fact Pictomancer isn't used in EX5 is actually extremely scary to see, because the number one reason not to pull it is that it can't sit still for its 2m burst and drops its extremely short ley line window. The number 2 being that it feels atrocious. And from my own opinions and the opinions of friends, it somehow might be both of these. The class doesn't have enough movement for how the fight is designed and how players are expected to solve it.

- snip

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Not to mention PCT feels so shit cause using your hammer at all is a dps loss after that "amazing update". When I was told that I basically dropped PCT asap.
I liked the hammer...