Yuweyawata Field Station is so wrong

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Have you ever spoken to players who find dungeons hard? I have. They read guides and their tooltips, watch videos, observe cast bars, and pay attention. And they struggle.

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Yes i have tried that, but it is really difficult when everyone feels personaly attacked on the slightest mention that they do somethng wrong, also most people are not aware that they are doing things wrong because the game doesn't teach you.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Have you ever spoken to players who find dungeons hard? I have. They read guides and their tooltips, watch videos, observe cast bars, and pay attention. And they struggle.

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I'm going to go out on a limb here, because I was wary of posting in this thread - I'm all too aware of how disapproving some forumites can be toward the sort of player you describe.

But... you just described me.

I mean, at my best I'm on the low-end of mediocre at the game and tend to 'scrape through' the more difficult content. I've tried Ex/Savage content and found that I was a burden to the team I was with and, both due to having enough insight to realise I wasn't suited for it and on advice from another player, decided to stick to Normal content.

Even so, I'll confess I struggle like hell with Jeuno: The First Walk any time my friends want to play it. And I daresay, if the currently difficulty curve continues, I'll struggle with the 7.2 content too.

And it's not as if I don't try - whilst I'm told that some of it may be down to poor ping (from my perspective I'm outside an AOE but get hit anyway) it does seem as if my reaction speed is lacking and, try as I might, I don't seem able to improve on it.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

Yes i have tried that, but it is really difficult when everyone feels personaly attacked on the slightest mention that they do somethng wrong, also most people are not aware that they are doing things wrong because the game doesn't teach you.

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Strange, I find most people receptive to suggestions of how they might improve. Maybe you should avoid telling them to quit watching Netflix.

But we do agree on one thing. The game is lousy at explaining to players how to play their job well.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

I'm going to go out on a limb here, because I was wary of posting in this thread - I'm all too aware of how disapproving some forumites can be toward the sort of player you describe.

But... you just described me.

I mean, at my best I'm on the low-end of mediocre at the game and tend to 'scrape through' the more difficult content. I've tried Ex/Savage content and found that I was a burden to the team I was with and, both due to having enough insight to realise I wasn't suited for it and on advice from another player, decided to stick to Normal content.

Even so, I'll confess I struggle like hell with Jeuno: The First Walk any time my friends want to play it. And I daresay, if the currently difficulty curve continues, I'll struggle with the 7.2 content too.

And it's not as if I don't try - whilst I'm told that some of it may be down to poor ping (from my perspective I'm outside an AOE but get hit anyway) it does seem as if my reaction speed is lacking and, try as I might, I don't seem able to improve on it.

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Don't tell a soul, Carin, but on NA/EU players like you and me are in the majority. Unlike us, however, most have the sense not to wade into these forums.

Oh and in before "anticipating snapshotting on high ping is easy, stop watching Netflix."

Solidarity and gl/hf.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

And it's not as if I don't try - whilst I'm told that some of it may be down to poor ping (from my perspective I'm outside an AOE but get hit anyway) it does seem as if my reaction speed is lacking and, try as I might, I don't seem able to improve on it.

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That is (mostly) not a ping issue, the game uses snapshot mechanics, that means when you are inside an AOE when the boss finished casting you are hit, not matter where you run afterwards, and because some animations takes 1-2 seconds before you take damage it APPEARS that you get hit outside of an AOE, you simply ran out too late.

But that also means that you can run into AOES the moment they resolved, you dont need to wait for the animation to happen.

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Originally Posted by Alice_Rivers

Seems to me that answer to "I cannot/will not perform basic tasks in a combat setting and demand to complete the story anyway" is the Trusts system that the devs have spent the last few expansions expanding. As has been pointed out in this very thread, you can press no buttons other than those needed to reach the next fight (and maybe avoid death) and the NPCs will clear the duty for you, short of buying a story skip it really doesn't get any easier than that. But that begs the question "why would you play what is clearly marketed as an 'Action RPG' if you're not able or willing to do the action part of the action RPG?". I don't play competitive shooters because I'm not competitive in that setting and I have no particular interest in becoming competitive, I don't play ranked RTS because (again) I'm not good enough and I know it.

FF14 does not present difficult mechanics in dungeons, it never has and it probably never will.

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I'm sorry if I understood something wrong, but are you saying that you cannot enjoy something if you're bad at it, and should instead either git gud or refrain from playing?
What are all those players ranked in bronze doing in said multiplayer games then?

I do agree though that since we have duty support, a case can be made for it, but they are kinda beyond the point since this is about roulettes anyway.

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Originally Posted by Yeonhee

I don't play that much anymore and even I still see level 100 players not using AoE on 5+ mobs. WHM spamming either Cure 1 or Cure 3. People running with/from stack markers. People standing on top on the tank with a buster marker. So yes, there are people that just don't want to learn even the basics of the combat.

It has everything to do with it. Launch any DT dungeon with Trust and don't attack a single time. NPCs are still gonna clear. Then again, how much easier do you want it to be ?

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Does this prevent dungeon completion or are we moving the goalposts?

I consider myself to be a mediocre player, I don't really play difficult content. My only advice really is just to practice. I think everyone has one or two mechanics they struggle with!

It took me a long time to be able to do the six half-room cleaves in The Gilded Araya trial for example, until I practiced it enough I understood how it worked.

If you can enter a dungeon or trial with NPC's you can practice as much as you want, and usually lots of fights use the same mechanics, so once you get it down you'll find it easier if it comes up again in future. Also my performance is garbage if I'm tired, so try coming back to try something again after some rest.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

^ This, many times over.

Additionally, I think what we're seeing from these players being walled by 'supposedly easy' mechanics are the consequences of removing too much job difficulties. For players (at least on paper) to stay 'engaged', that missing difficulty had to be moved elsewhere. Encounter design becomes the next logical 'lever' to be pulled further down. But given how they design modern encounters, how far can they really use the same template before everything starts turning from "Stand on X or get slapped" to "Stand on X or explode, Idc"?

If the job also shares that burden of complexity, at the very least SE can once again have the option to tone the encounter difficulty down. This way even if players are bad at playing their fave job, the worst they could do is playing their rotation not optimally, but still able to stay in the fray not getting one-two shot if they make mistake(s).

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I'll bounce back on that, because when I do compare with HW/SB runs, but especially HW, we sure had more dungeon failures and struggles but they were due to the battle system that was a lot more demanding (tanking positioning properly, not taking crits from behind, not running out of MP because tank isnt mitigating and/or healer/both not managing MP well and being wasteful, DPS too low running the party resources dry over time, losing aggro, etc), but the thing is, sometimes people died, sure, but it was rarely due to encounter mechanics themselves. No binary "you didn't stand on X so you explode idc". I actually don't remember a lot of actual walls and blockers for people, even though they could struggle a lot more throughout the dungeons comparatively to today.

For instance in comparison, I've stumbled in the Cenote dungeon with a healer that kept dying to all the boss mechanics, all three of them (I think this is the most challenging dungeon of leveling in DT). Always the same mechanics got them. Told them to follow me/us, they tried, sometimes it worked out but sometimes not. They were just too busy healing or dealing with their own things. Most of those mechanics oneshot them, or damaged/vulned them enough that the next one would kill them. Since the tank was barely better, sometimes they also died to things that can actually kill a tank (like knockbacks off the platform, etc). That was one of the few runs that I notice that it actually walled/blocked people with DDR mechanics.

And in their case, nobody can look me in the eye and tell me they were watching netflix, when they were acutely aware that they kept wiping the group again and again, and literally crying in chat and apologizing. Actually amazed they stuck to the end, because when this happens more often than not, people just silently leave the run in shame.

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Originally Posted by Deifact

It took me a long time to be able to do the six half-room cleaves in The Gilded Araya trial for example, until I practiced it enough I understood how it worked.

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you just dodge left/right/left/right behind her and ignore the frontal cleave, no thinking required.

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Originally Posted by Valence

I'm sorry if I understood something wrong, but are you saying that you cannot enjoy something if you're bad at it, and should instead either git gud or refrain from playing?
What are all those players ranked in bronze doing in said multiplayer games then?

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Speaking only for myself, I don't tend to enjoy things I'm bad at, no. I tried playing SGE recently, tried really hard to get any level of good at it and while I could reliably clear content with minimal risk to other players, I hated it, so I stopped and went back to playing things I like and have some measure of skill at. In the context of this thread and my opinion on the matter though, I'm not going to go about complaining that SGE is incompatible with me and has to be changed, I'll just play WHM or AST or SCH instead.

I'm glad you raised the point of bronze ranked players in competitive games, to them I say "if you're having fun, more power to you." I don't mean to exclude people for not being amazing at a game, I'm not the best in savage or Chaotic for example, I've done my share of fails and wiped my share of parties because I wasn't quick enough or I prepositioned too early or in the wrong place or I misjudged the healing requirement - it happens, it's not the games fault, it's not a problem functionally with the game (I have my issues with balance, as can be seen from my post history and I'm quite vocal about that) and the content shouldn't change because I'm bad at it - It should change for a slew of other reasons.

I draw the line at "I am bad at game and not having fun (anymore), so game should change", no, you should change or change your choice of game. Just to reiterate - Being bad at a game is fundamentally okay, particularly if you are still having fun - as a healer main that's all the better for me as it gives me actual gameplay.

here is a clip from Thomas Mahler, and his opinion about game difficulty.

https://youtu.be/Dwo5uoRPqJE?t=532

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Originally Posted by Arohk

here is a clip from Thomas Mahler, and his opinion about game difficulty.

https://youtu.be/Dwo5uoRPqJE?t=532

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Would you agree his key point is that for a game to be interesting "you have to overcome challenge"?

If so, it sounds like for you and other skilled players, MSQ dungeons are insufficiently challenging.

Given that the game caters to players of all different skills, the solution is surely dual-track difficulty?

Why do you object to this suggestion?

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Would you agree his key point is that for a game to be interesting "you have to overcome challenge"?

If so, it sounds like for you and other skilled players, MSQ dungeons are insufficiently challenging.

Given that the game caters to players of all different skills, the solution is surely dual-track difficulty?

Why do you object to this suggestion?

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Yes, overcoming a challenge is the key part of gaming and progressing difficulty on higher levels is as old as gaming itself. I do raid Savage but not ultimate, i have one clear in UCOB, but i lack the time and mental energy after work to try another.
What do you mean with dual-track difficulty? an even easier easy mode for normal content? i have already said that i don't care and if people wanted to skip all combat all together thats is also fine, but then you should also get no loot or other rewards.
But you see, this game FORCES you to play the old dungeons and trials over and over to reach your weekly tomestone cap or other rewards, and can that be at least somewhat entertaining instead of a snoozefest?

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Originally Posted by Arohk

Yes, overcoming a challenge is the key part of gaming and progressing difficulty on higher levels is as old as gaming itself. I do raid Savage but not ultimate, i have one clear in UCOB, but i lack the time and mental energy after work to try another.
What do you mean with dual-track difficulty? an even easier easy mode for normal content? i have already said that i don't care and if people wanted to skip all combat all together thats is also fine, but then you should also get no loot or other rewards.
But you see, this game FORCES you to play the old dungeons and trials over and over to reach your weekly tomestone cap or other rewards, and can that be at least somewhat entertaining instead of a snoozefest?

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Eh? The game doesn't FORCE you to cap tomes, that's a choice.

But yes, dual-track would allow you to enjoy the experience more by making old trials and dungeons more challenging for those who want it.

Less-skilled players would be challenged by an easier mode.

One huge advantage for you is that never again will you be compelled to play with the Netflix-watching, Cure1-spamming, undergeared level 100 WHM who cannot read their tooltips or open their eyes while playing.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Eh? The game doesn't FORCE you to cap tomes, that's a choice.

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If your goal is to clear Savage and have good gear, to do so, it is not a choice, because half your stuff comes from Tomes, and the other half from Raids.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

If your goal is to clear Savage and have good gear, to do so, it is not a choice, because half your stuff comes from Tomes, and the other half from Raids.

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Attempting to clear Savage is a choice.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Attempting to clear Savage is a choice.

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So is playing the game.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

So is playing the game.

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Once again I struggle to decode your series of non sequiturs. But do please give my warm regards to that WHM we've been discussing.

That horse you're on is pretty high, perhaps coming down might make you seem less sarcastic. Even me, someone who finds zero difficulty with dungeons, can agree to at least extend an olive branch and give an easier mode for dungeons (if only for the story). It would come at a price (your rewards, or much less of them). If people do not wish to use the tools given to them (npcs) or cannot do it even with them then a line has to be drawn somewhere. If you give even the skilled players a spammable rewarding mode then of course they'd use it.

Making everything only difficult for the least skilled makes for a very boring combat game for everyone else in PvE.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

That horse you're on is pretty high, perhaps coming down might make you seem less sarcastic. Even me, someone who finds zero difficulty with dungeons, can agree to at least extend an olive branch and give an easier mode for dungeons (if only for the story). It would come at a price (your rewards, or much less of them). If people do not wish to use the tools given to them (npcs) or cannot do it even with them then a line has to be drawn somewhere. If you give even the skilled players a spammable rewarding mode then of course they'd use it.

Making everything only difficult for the least skilled makes for a very boring combat game for everyone else in PvE.

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There is nothing more boring for the less-skilled than not being able to progress the MSQ at all. This is particularly true for those who coped perfectly well for years, then the increasing difficulty stymied them.

I have provided a solution.

As to high horses, those looking down on players less-skilled than themselves would appear to be the ones engaging in equine elevation. I have no idea why, in threads like this, they have to be so damn condescending.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

equine elevation. I have no idea why, in threads like this, they have to be so damn condescending.

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That right there. If you want condescending you'll probably get it if you keep talking to people like that. While I do partially agree with some things you've said you are very quickly dismissed otherwise with your sarcastic tones. Normal people don't talk like this. I genuinely cannot even make suggestions because you'll just get mad I guess.

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

That right there. If you want condescending you'll probably get it if you keep talking to people like that. While I do partially agree with some things you've said you are very quickly dismissed otherwise with your sarcastic tones. Normal people don't talk like this. I genuinely cannot even make suggestions because you'll just get mad I guess.

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I see. So the tryhards come in here pointing and laughing, claiming that anyone with their eyes open who is awake can clear this "braindead" content, then they summon this mythical WHM that features in so many such discussions. (Once they morphed into a Physick-casting SCH, FYI. Nice to see a little imagination.)

We are then told that players who don't reach some arbitrary gaming standard should quit the game. And all this is perfectly polite and fine?

But I push back against this elitism and you have a problem with the way I talk? Is there a particular word that has caused offense? Is it "damn"? I'm not clear how that would make me abnormal.

Should I pepper my prose with "Lol! Lmao, even!" so it conforms to current standards? Is that how "normal people talk"?

Okay.

"Normal people don't talk like this"!!!

Lol.
Lmao, even.

Case and point. There's all of the buzzwords. Elitism.

Enjoy being bitter. I'm out. Waste of time.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I see. So the tryhards come in here pointing and laughing, claiming that anyone with their eyes open who is awake can clear this "braindead" content, then they summon this mythical WHM that features in so many such discussions. (Once they morphed into a Physick-casting SCH, FYI. Nice to see a little imagination.)

We are then told that players who don't reach some arbitrary gaming standard should quit the game. And all this is perfectly polite and fine?

But I push back against this elitism and you have a problem with the way I talk? Is there a particular word that has caused offense? Is it "damn"? I'm not clear how that would make me abnormal.

Should I pepper my prose with "Lol! Lmao, even!" so it conforms to current standards? Is that how "normal people talk"?

Okay.

"Normal people don't talk like this"!!!

Lol.
Lmao, even.

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For what it's worth, I tend to agree.

I mean, as I said in my previous post (a few pages ago) - as hard as it is to admit here, I'm really not very good at the game. And the reason it's so difficult to admit is that making said admission on a forum where the general response to anyone who doesn't think the game is a cakewalk is "the game is too easy", "get gud" or "skill issue".

Hell, in terms of what you say about "players who don't reach some arbitrary gaming standard" -
https://i.imgur.com/RGeJDpA.png
That was a (Discord) message I received from someone I thought was a friend following an instance of I don't remember what. And whilst that was a more elaborate example, it certain wasn't the first - or last - time I received a message of that nature. I'd be lying if I claimed it happens often, but it happens more than 'never'.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

For what it's worth, I tend to agree.

I mean, as I said in my previous post (a few pages ago) - as hard as it is to admit here, I'm really not very good at the game. And the reason it's so difficult to admit is that making said admission on a forum where the general response to anyone who doesn't think the game is a cakewalk is "the game is too easy", "get gud" or "skill issue".

Hell, in terms of what you say about "players who don't reach some arbitrary gaming standard" -
https://i.imgur.com/RGeJDpA.png
That was a (Discord) message I received from someone I thought was a friend following an instance of I don't remember what. And whilst that was a more elaborate example, it certain wasn't the first - or last - time I received a message of that nature. I'd be lying if I claimed it happens often, but it happens more than 'never'.

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I'm sorry you had that unloaded on you from someone you felt was a friend. That is horrendous.

We all sit somewhere on the FF14 skill spectrum. Why some on the high-skilled end feel the need to be rude and, in your example, frankly cruel to those less-skilled is baffling.

But I'm pretty sure, Carin, that neither you nor I are "bitter," as Mesarthim suggests.

Just a little bemused.

Unfortunately, the attitudes exhibited in this thread only serve to prevent less-skilled players from sharing their concerns about the game, thereby losing useful input that would help to improve it.

So to all in the brotherhood and sisterhood of the not-very-good-but-trying, I say:

Ridiculum nihil est quod timendum est

Or as Adam Ant sang so beautifully in Prince Charming

Ridicule is nothing to be scared of.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

For what it's worth, I tend to agree.

I mean, as I said in my previous post (a few pages ago) - as hard as it is to admit here, I'm really not very good at the game. And the reason it's so difficult to admit is that making said admission on a forum where the general response to anyone who doesn't think the game is a cakewalk is "the game is too easy", "get gud" or "skill issue".

Hell, in terms of what you say about "players who don't reach some arbitrary gaming standard" -
https://i.imgur.com/RGeJDpA.png
That was a (Discord) message I received from someone I thought was a friend following an instance of I don't remember what. And whilst that was a more elaborate example, it certain wasn't the first - or last - time I received a message of that nature. I'd be lying if I claimed it happens often, but it happens more than 'never'.

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This make me curious about your playstyle, and what your actual problem with the game is. Maybe a general misundestanding of game mechanics?
If you want to improve i could give you advice, but i need to know what you are doing wrong first, also i got nothing better to do in the game right now if you are interested i could call you in discord and coach you a bit, but i am at work, so later in the evening only

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Originally Posted by Arohk

This make me curious about your playstyle, and what your actual problem with the game is. Maybe a general misundestanding of game mechanics?
If you want to improve i could give you advice, but i need to know what you are doing wrong first, also i got nothing better to do in the game right now if you are interested i could call you in discord and coach you a bit.

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I'm at work and get very little in-game time to be honest. Will log in briefly at lunchtime, and I get a few hours most evenings where I run roulettes with my in-game partner.

Appreciate the offer though, and would appreciate any help you can offer.

And it's most likely a combination of slow reaction speed, misunderstanding game mechanics, and - to be honest - I'm not great at remembering what I've seen. It's one of the reasons watching/reading guides isn't of much benefit - I don't recall much of what I've seen and can't put what little I do remember into practice.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

I'm at work and get very little in-game time to be honest. Will log in briefly at lunchtime, and I get a few hours most evenings where I run roulettes with my in-game partner.

Appreciate the offer though, and would appreciate any help you can offer.

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good to hear that
you can add me on discord (Arohk#9960), i am at work too right now so...we will find some time.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

For what it's worth, I tend to agree.

I mean, as I said in my previous post (a few pages ago) - as hard as it is to admit here, I'm really not very good at the game. And the reason it's so difficult to admit is that making said admission on a forum where the general response to anyone who doesn't think the game is a cakewalk is "the game is too easy", "get gud" or "skill issue".

Hell, in terms of what you say about "players who don't reach some arbitrary gaming standard" -
https://i.imgur.com/RGeJDpA.png
That was a (Discord) message I received from someone I thought was a friend following an instance of I don't remember what. And whilst that was a more elaborate example, it certain wasn't the first - or last - time I received a message of that nature. I'd be lying if I claimed it happens often, but it happens more than 'never'.

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That's completely insane. I know I have strong views and I'm blunt, harsh even at times, but that message is out of order even by my standards. Not to mention going out of their way to look you up to make it worse.

Edit on reading that discord message: it's pretty trite overall and has been there since forever. You can detect the core of the message, or the face beneath the mask if you will, as soon as you read the words "pulling your own weight" or "effort put in the game", and I'm afraid it's tied to a true political divide IRL that goes beyond just this game. It's a matter of core values rather than gaming standards.
Jeder nach seinen Fähigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedürfnissen

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Originally Posted by Mesarthim

That right there. If you want condescending you'll probably get it if you keep talking to people like that. While I do partially agree with some things you've said you are very quickly dismissed otherwise with your sarcastic tones. Normal people don't talk like this. I genuinely cannot even make suggestions because you'll just get mad I guess.

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I'm genuinely puzzled by this statement, as I have the exact same feeling reading the other side of the discussion...

Don't bother doing Expert Dungeon roulette in DT, used to do it every day.
The only lev100 dungeon I enjoy is the cactus one.
If wondrous tails asks for it, I'll queue that one specifically.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Edit on reading that discord message: it's pretty trite overall and has been there since forever. You can detect the core of the message, or the face beneath the mask if you will, as soon as you read the words "pulling your own weight" or "effort put in the game", and I'm afraid it's tied to a true political divide IRL that goes beyond just this game. It's a matter of core values rather than gaming standards.
Jeder nach seinen Fähigkeiten, jedem nach seinen Bedürfnissen

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Oh that's a fascinating observation. Unfortunately, the dominant ideology expressed here seems closer to sich am eigenen Schopf aus dem Sumpf ziehen.

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Originally Posted by Carin-Eri

Appreciate the offer though, and would appreciate any help you can offer.

And it's most likely a combination of slow reaction speed, misunderstanding game mechanics, and - to be honest - I'm not great at remembering what I've seen. It's one of the reasons watching/reading guides isn't of much benefit - I don't recall much of what I've seen and can't put what little I do remember into practice.

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Thank you for your time yesterday, it was very insightful and i learned something from it.
I thought about this over night and how to solve your issue, let me try to describe it with an anology, please dont understand this as an insult , because i don't mean it that way.

Watching you play is similar to someone driving a car without a steering wheel, you may get forward but you are bound to crash.
Because you are clicking all your abilities, you distract yourself from what is happening around you, it is impossible to focus on the fight and move around properly when you constantly must focus on your curser and where to click, you also can not click fast enough to use all your potential. I can not imagine someone perform well that way, especialy on APM heavy jobs.

To be frank, this game is NOT ment to be played with mouse only. I thought about a solution of how to fix your problem with keybinds but it requires some work, you need to completly reset your habits of clicking and start over from ground up. Since you still have some unleveled jobs, i Suggest to restart at Level 1 and really try to keybind every new ability you get and refrain from clicking any skills at all as much as possible to get used to it.
Trust me, you will benefit from that on the long run and enjoy the game much more.


Anyhow, i stand by my point that the dungeon difficulty is not the problem, i get the suspicion that most people that struggle like you are playing the game in a very "inconvenient" way and that is why it seems so difficult for them.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

To be frank, this game is NOT ment to be played with mouse only. I thought about a solution of how to fix your problem with keybinds but it requires some work, you need to completly reset your habits of clicking and start over from ground up. Since you still have some unleveled jobs, i Suggest to restart at Level 1 and really try to keybind every new ability you get and refrain from clicking any skills at all as much as possible to get used to it.
Trust me, you will benefit from that on the long run and enjoy the game much more.


Anyhow, i stand by my point that the dungeon difficulty is not the problem, i get the suspicion that most people that struggle like you are playing the game in a very "inconvenient" way and that is why it seems so difficult for them.

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I've been down this path with a couple of people in my FC. The transition from clicking to keybind is not at all easy. I mentioned I have to use a hybrid system because I cannot get beyond 15 keybinds.

So I sort of agree with you that the current job kits work poorly for mouse only, but I think it goes further than that. PvE in this game suits controllers far better than kb/m. And, of course, controllers are far more common in JP.

Nevertheless, dungeon design is a compounding problem. When the difficulty of encounters is based purely on dodging, the mouse has to be dedicated (almost) exclusively to motion. I agree with you that this makes clicking inconvenient and severely limits damage output. But unlearning this habit when it has worked perfectly well in other games is a very tall order.

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

I've been down this path with a couple of people in my FC. The transition from clicking to keybind is not at all easy. I mentioned I have to use a hybrid system because I cannot get beyond 15 keybinds.

So I sort of agree with you that the current job kits work poorly for mouse only, but I think it goes further than that. PvE in this game suits controllers far better than kb/m. And, of course, controllers are far more common in JP.

Nevertheless, dungeon design is a compounding problem. When the difficulty of encounters is based purely on dodging, the mouse has to be dedicated (almost) exclusively to motion. I agree with you that this makes clicking inconvenient and severely limits damage output. But unlearning this habit when it has worked perfectly well in other games is a very tall order.

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I also suggested to her to switch to controller, because clicking is just not a feasable option in this game, but i have no experience with playing the game on controller and dont even know how to set that up properly.
That this game as an overabundance of buttons to keybind is indeed a real problem and the devs seem not to care about that as long as everything somehow fits into the cross menu for their PS5 controller, they unly prune some buttons when it doesnt fit in anymore.
Remember when Gnashing fang combo was 3 instead of one hotkey? now it is one, but Redmage Riposte still remeains 3 buttons.

and you can only manage 15 ? you must have tiny hands ;3, i think i am at ~26 but i also help myself with xiv combo to reduce the bloat

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arohk

I also suggested to her to switch to controller, because clicking is just not a feasable option in this game, but i have no experience with playing the game on controller and dont even know how to set that up properly.
That this game as an overabundance of buttons to keybind is indeed a real problem and the devs seem not to care about that as long as everything somehow fits into the cross menu for their PS5 controller, they unly prune some buttons when it doesnt fit in anymore.
Remember when Gnashing fang combo was 3 instead of one hotkey? now it is one, but Redmage Riposte still remeains 3 buttons.

and you can only manage 15 ? you must have tiny hands ;3, i think i am at ~26 but i also help myself with xiv combo to reduce the bloat

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Ha! I played bass for 35 years, they're quite big but no longer with flexible fingers.

I also type a lot and I just can't find anything with my left hand on the right side of the keyboard.

But yeah, button bloat is a pain and the fact its limit is based on PS5 doesn't help kb/m players.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Ha! I played bass for 35 years, they're quite big but no longer with flexible fingers.

I also type a lot and I just can't find anything with my left hand on the right side of the keyboard.

But yeah, button bloat is a pain and the fact its limit is based on PS5 doesn't help kb/m players.

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If not for controller, the right hardware is also important, if you are not playing with a controller at least get the right mouse.
Especialy for a game with so many abilities like WoW or FFXIV , an MMO mouse like the razer naga is essential.

Razer Naga:
https://i.imgur.com/fRYDGj5.jpeg
I use this type of Modell for over 15 years now, it is a godsend.

Or any other mmo-mouse that has side buttons also works.
For Final , i use 10 of the 12 side buttons.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arohk

If not for controller, the right hardware is also important, if you are not playing with a controller at least get the right mouse.
Especialy for a game with so many abilities like WoW or FFXIV , an MMO mouse like the razer naga is essential.

Razer Naga:
https://i.imgur.com/fRYDGj5.jpeg
I use this type of Modell for over 15 years now, it is a godsend.

Or any other mmo-mouse that has side buttons also works.
For Final , i use 10 of the 12 side buttons.

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Haven't been able to use side buttons since I broke my wrist a few years ago. But I agree, those that can should take advantage of such hardware.

To be honest I know a lot of clickers that do perform as well as the best raiders, and I'm pretty sure there is some in pvp ranked as well. It is however probably that they still do use direction keys on their keyboard to move while clicking their abilities.
Point being, UI is something extremely personal and if clicking is something that clicks with you (pun intended), then it can be perfectly viable as long as you're able to move through another device at the same time. If clicking however is something that you feel is a limiting factor for you, then you should definitely consider switching to keybinds/controller/something else.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valence

To be honest I know a lot of clickers that do perform as well as the best raiders, and I'm pretty sure there is some in pvp ranked as well. It is however probably that they still do use direction keys on their keyboard to move while clicking their abilities.
Point being, UI is something extremely personal and if clicking is something that clicks with you (pun intended), then it can be perfectly viable as long as you're able to move through another device at the same time. If clicking however is something that you feel is a limiting factor for you, then you should definitely consider switching to keybinds/controller/something else.

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You are talking about people that already perfom at a high level, they can tell you they are clickers, but do you really know how they play? There is certainly a difference between clicking some abilities that you don't use that often, or clicking your entire rotation, that must be so exhausting i can't even imagine that.

I highly doubt a high end player clicks all his stuff, they most likey use a mix of some keybinds for their core skills and click the rest like most people do.
I had one guy in my static raid in shadowbringers that clicked most of his stuff, he so often failed at mechanics where he had to move quickly it was very noticable, and when i found out he was clicking, it clicked ;) with me why he made so many mistakes.

Even when it is viable, we are not talking about the top endgame players than can do it, but the low end casuals that struggle with easy & normal stuff because of it.