8.0 rework will be a joke

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Originally Posted by BabyYoda

Yeah guys keep subs going 7.2 will be lit

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Everyone with a house will keep their sub going whether they actively play the game or not, so you're unironically not far off.

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Originally Posted by Kisshu

Sadly for the PVP part, to me it feels like the PVE job team took over in 7.1 and made the skills more like in PVE. A lot of jobs suddenly got "use X ability, then you can use Y ability" as we're also seeing in 7.0 PVE.
Jobs like DRK got a combo chain behind it and a followup on LB, or RDM.
Overall also feels a lot more burst-focused than before.

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Which is troubling given that in the long-form notes on the job changes, they claimed a primary goal was to move the emphasis from burst to sustained damage. The jobs I've tried since the rework it's very much "get in range, press all of your buttons, retreat and wait 20-30s, rinse, repeat."

I had really big hopes in 7.0 after the huge content drought in EW patches. But I got again disappointed in almost every point. I have no hopes for 8.0 left to be honest. :c

I play from time to time, but I am not hocked into anything in FFXIV for years now.

At the moment I even prefer playing cozy Animal Crossing New Horizons over FFXIV. I am also looking forward a lot to the new switch and when I am honest I really don't care for the next Live Letter and 7.2...
It feels like I already know that there won't be something really cool in gameplay or whatever. I will stay around, but my passion for FFXIV dies.

Concerning the rework I hope that someone is gonna tell Yoshi P. that MMOs specifically invented the auto-attack so players wouldn’t have to hit the same key sequence over and over.

As of now these aren’t even classes, jobs or whatever you want to call it, it’s basically a selection of which mini-game you want to play while hitting the meat bag in the middle of the box.

likely what will change for jobs in 8.0

Tanks - get a few defensive upgrades they don't need.
Healer - gets some flashy heal skills that they don't need.
Dps - take away 2 things and add 1 flashy simple skill and animation upgrades

2 new jobs! 1 tank which shares the same kit as the other tanks but has different animations, 1 new physical ranged that is "selfish" like machinist.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Yoshida talked about harder/more reactive encounters coming in DT, then around release said the first iteration wouldn't actually be out until 7.2.

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I guess we'll have to wait and see.
The problem I'm already seeing on the horizon however is that jobs themselves are too rigid to have proper "reactive" encounters.

If bosses from 7.2 onward would actually fire out mechanics at random you are going to run into issues when almost all jobs are designed around mapping out your ability usage way in advance.

2 Minute really needs to go. It's not just making classes feel samey, but fights as well

don't expect anything from SE and CBUIII, to me they are only mid tier team as devs/studio, to make something good they should hire real game designer to make gearing and substats better and new battle designer to work on jobs and fights as a whole.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

Yoshida talked about harder/more reactive encounters coming in DT, then around release said the first iteration wouldn't actually be out until 7.2.

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Now I'm worried, are going to get even more action game and even less RPG?

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Originally Posted by Mawlzy

Which is troubling given that in the long-form notes on the job changes, they claimed a primary goal was to move the emphasis from burst to sustained damage. The jobs I've tried since the rework it's very much "get in range, press all of your buttons, retreat and wait 20-30s, rinse, repeat."

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I do not know where this burst idea comes from. Current pvp after 7.1 changes is less burst focused and strikes a more balanced approach between burst and sustained damage, where EW pvp was all about burst.

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

If they want to bring back identity (with balanced jobs) they need to make 15-20 "new jobs" (considering they already have an idea (data + 2.0 - 3.0 jobs)), also I think the game netcode/current pve structure (2mn meta for instance) is a problem

Im 80% sure that the 8.0 rework will be underwhelming, I hope im wrong but I dont have any faith in SE

what do you guys think ?

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I mean they aren't going to get anywhere with the inflexible nature of the content they currently build. It seems the team got the wrong messages when dealing with content during shadowbringers through endwalker. They need content that rewards people at all levels of play and really need to engineer the savage fights to allow for people to learn while not hindering those who are further along. That was a huge part of raiding in the golden years and why it took off to begin with. Things like group dance challenges that are super strict didn't show up until later and ultimately were influenced by the arms race between players and devs, thanks to mod development to improve ease of use and QoL. The fact that the top raiding guilds use mods to make the hardest challenges of this game easier should be plenty of reason to make fights easier to begin with. Probably by starting with showing actual save zones by advertising before attacks just like they do in normal.

It will be a joke as long as we have grandpa-tier 2.5 GCD

I am tired of seeing damage meters and potency tweaks, re-work it so that on a target dummy damage be similar on a per role basis, (Group Phys ranged, Caster and melee into just DPS) but be drastically different on if other jobs are on it.
Damage downs, vulns, status effects, slows, let all these things be piled onto the boss by players and together be the total damage. Not to looseness of other MMO's but in a way which makes meters mean next to nothing and job variety everything.

Less impact on how jobs are balanced because of a particular environment (e.g. raids). Dancer for example has crap dps, because he can support others and has no cast times which doesn't matter when i play solo stuff.

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Originally Posted by Vintersol

Less impact on how jobs are balanced because of a particular environment (e.g. raids). Dancer for example has crap dps, because he can support others and has no cast times which doesn't matter when i play solo stuff.

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I liked the concept of dancer but then I realised that unless I was buffing people who knew their job well, in addition to it being a high dps job to even break even with melee, picto or blm I stopped playing it.

Nah dont think theyll do much of a rework for jobs, more likely they'll continue to condense/ease job game play but add something else on top instead, trees, augmentation, who knows. Why would they, its prolly easier than going through all the jobs and actually fixing them.

1. Whatever changes to Bard
2. Whatever changes to Summoner
3. Level 90 to 100 of Blue Mage
3. Whatever the new job will be, probably some ranged physical if there is only one new job.

That is all I look forward to level 8.0 for new additions and reworks.

They're kicking the can down the street now, seeing how long we'll pay before we all subscribe from boredom.

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Originally Posted by TheGrimace

They're kicking the can down the street now, seeing how long we'll pay before we all subscribe from boredom.

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Unsubscribe. Man, how is the mobile version of this forum so bad that I can't edit posts? The forum is another relic of 2008 tech.

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Originally Posted by TheGrimace

Unsubscribe. Man, how is the mobile version of this forum so bad that I can't edit posts? The forum is another relic of 2008 tech.

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It's worse. It's not 2008 tech. It's 2000-2004 tech. But every single company almost used it because it was seen as the "premier" forum software for some reason. To be fair, it's always had a lot of features and extensions, but so have all the open source ones. I suppose it was because of companies not trusting free/open source stuff back then.

There wasn't as much reason to use it when this game released. It's likely due to them already having it for FF11 and it's easier to use what you're familiar with.

In order to fix jobs they first need to fix content.

when content is as simple and straightforward as it is there really isnt anywhere for jobs to go. even if they add skill trees they can't go anywhere.

the content at the minute is dubed down and siplified so much there are absolutely ZERO systems and mechanics that jobs can work with or manipulate..

thee is no boss diversity. the only thing different between one boss and the next is how much HP they have.. they all have the same defence the same speed the same evasion. the same resistances.. a level 100 super boss takes the same damage from an attack as a level 1 bug. the only difference is HP.

To fix jobs they first need to fix content design. and put interesting and engaging systems in place that jobs can manipulate and work around.. give monsters varying stats and attributes instead of make them all the same. then you can have fast evasive mobs, slow hulky armored mobs. mobs that make be weak to blindness mobs that could be weighed down or imperrilled to certain elements.

bring back simple concepts like resource management and make those resources actually finate like tp and stuff and you can open the door for supportive jobs to help managae and maintain them. and open the door to actually decison based gameplay. this combo may do a lot more damage but it also cost alot more tp so if you use it to much you may end up starved. so then find a balance between spike damage and sustained damage. actual conscious decision making instead of mindess static rotations.

You cannot have engaging fun and interesting jobs. without engaging fun and interesting combat systems to play with and manipulate...

If they dont fix the content all a skill tree is going to be is:-
Path A leads to a x% damage buff on a 2 minute timer.
Path B leads to a x% crit buff on a 2 minute timer.
Path C leads to a x% direct hit buff on a 2 minute timer.

BORING!!!!!!

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Originally Posted by Dzian

In order to fix jobs they first need to fix content.

when content is as simple and straightforward as it is there really isnt anywhere for jobs to go. even if they add skill trees they can't go anywhere.

the content at the minute is dubed down and siplified so much there are absolutely ZERO systems and mechanics that jobs can work with or manipulate..

thee is no boss diversity. the only thing different between one boss and the next is how much HP they have.. they all have the same defence the same speed the same evasion. the same resistances.. a level 100 super boss takes the same damage from an attack as a level 1 bug. the only difference is HP.

To fix jobs they first need to fix content design. and put interesting and engaging systems in place that jobs can manipulate and work around.. give monsters varying stats and attributes instead of make them all the same. then you can have fast evasive mobs, slow hulky armored mobs. mobs that make be weak to blindness mobs that could be weighed down or imperrilled to certain elements.

bring back simple concepts like resource management and make those resources actually finate like tp and stuff and you can open the door for supportive jobs to help managae and maintain them. and open the door to actually decison based gameplay. this combo may do a lot more damage but it also cost alot more tp so if you use it to much you may end up starved. so then find a balance between spike damage and sustained damage. actual conscious decision making instead of mindess static rotations.

You cannot have engaging fun and interesting jobs. without engaging fun and interesting combat systems to play with and manipulate...

if the dont fix the content all a skill tree is going to be is path a leads to a x% damage buff on a 2 minute timer. path b leads to a x% crit buff on a 2 minute timer. path c leads to a x% direct hit buff on a 2 minute timer. BORING!!!!!!

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That approach doesn't work in a modern theme park MMO that's still trying to copy early 2010s WoW.

They've backed themselves into a corner. The only rework is the hotbars, but not the "end use" which is that DPS has to be balanced. Tanks need to be a certain percentage under the DPS and healers a certain percentage below that. And content has to be clearable in a certain timeframe due to enrage timers. Therefore, as long as that is true, DPS has to be balanced within a certain range. There won't ever be a true support class because the moment you give a job "too much" support, they'd have to drop the DPS to balance it. But, if a group can't clear content in time, then they'd have to put that DPS back.

I expect further simplification of jobs. More ways to cast while moving. Less positionals. More combining abilities to either the same hotbar button, or just combining a few OGCD DPS abilities into one button that does the sum total of that potency.

I don't think an overhaul/rework can be more than that given how they've boxed themselves in for the last 11 years.

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Originally Posted by dspguy

They've backed themselves into a corner. The only rework is the hotbars, but not the "end use" which is that DPS has to be balanced. Tanks need to be a certain percentage under the DPS and healers a certain percentage below that. And content has to be clearable in a certain timeframe due to enrage timers. Therefore, as long as that is true, DPS has to be balanced within a certain range. There won't ever be a true support class because the moment you give a job "too much" support, they'd have to drop the DPS to balance it. But, if a group can't clear content in time, then they'd have to put that DPS back.

I expect further simplification of jobs. More ways to cast while moving. Less positionals. More combining abilities to either the same hotbar button, or just combining a few OGCD DPS abilities into one button that does the sum total of that potency.

I don't think an overhaul/rework can be more than that given how they've boxed themselves in for the last 11 years.

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They could do a full support job, but it would be crazy good numbers to compensate the lack of dps. Like if something buffs your damage in some manner, it would have be magnitudes stronger than is currently considered the best to be worthwhile. Like so good for the damage boost for the party that it makes Ninja's Trick Attack look minor by comparison. And it has to be that cracked if they test it with stuff like ultimate in mind so it would be like a big selling point of an expansion. Meaning it would have a similar effect like Pictomancer, where for lower tier content like a normal dungeon, the party is just speed clearing through.

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Originally Posted by TheGrimace

Unsubscribe. Man, how is the mobile version of this forum so bad that I can't edit posts? The forum is another relic of 2008 tech.

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Anyone with a house will keep their house even if they are bored, but will still complain about it relying on other people to do the unsubscribing.

I get the feeling whatever is being promised in the future will be underwhelming, from a pragmatic approach. How they're doing things now is how they've primarily done things before with this game, and even if the player numbers continue to fall, I doubt any groundbreaking change will come to classes or battle since any criticism towards the systems, designs and staff are considered defamation (from how Japan's criminal laws are written). We (NA) won't be punished, but they (SE/Team) will assuredly ignore what the forums have to say if what we want isn't what they're planning to give, and they will instead perform damage control in positive Lodestone-or-other-media updates. What we have now, in the game, is similar to what we've had for the past handful of years and they're only slicing the meat thinner and thinner on the sandwich. It's the same sandwich in spirit, but it feels stingy; disingenuous. So whatever amazing content they have coming is already being scrutinized heavily by the community they have failed to serve in full, and is the main thing veteran players are looking at while closing their subscriptions for the remainder of Dawntrail.

What will be will be. We need to get through the year first before we can determine if any ambitious plans in the community's favor is coming, otherwise waiting in anticipation for 8.0 will be moot.

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Originally Posted by Daralii

That approach doesn't work in a modern theme park MMO that's still trying to copy early 2010s WoW.

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Has nothing to do with WoW and everything to do with staple systems of the the final fantasy franchise. Right down to oh its a bomb monster. It resists fire but is weak to ice...

And this is a final fantasy game. So.....

Old cars had buttons for everything. Modern cars have touch screens. And the trend going forwards is going back to buttons because drivers prefer them over modern touch screens.

Modern does not always mean better.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

In order to fix jobs they first need to fix content.

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That's at least how SE sees it. They want to fix content first through 7.x, then jobs in 8.x.

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To fix jobs they first need to fix content design. and put interesting and engaging systems in place that jobs can manipulate and work around.. give monsters varying stats and attributes instead of make them all the same. then you can have fast evasive mobs, slow hulky armored mobs. mobs that make be weak to blindness mobs that could be weighed down or imperrilled to certain elements.

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The main issue with doing that is jobs are very fixed in what they can do. As it stands, they want a person to be able to "main" a single job and never change from it. In order to allow some jobs to be significantly stronger in some fights but not others, they would need to expect people to play multiple jobs, or remove the concept of jobs and allow them be able to switch what abilities they can use at will like Blue Mages do.

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if the dont fix the content all a skill tree is going to be is path a leads to a x% damage buff on a 2 minute timer. path b leads to a x% crit buff on a 2 minute timer. path c leads to a x% direct hit buff on a 2 minute timer. BORING!!!!!!

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Their concern is always going to be how a new player learns the game. In the past, they flat out didn't and even after a lot of playtime they wouldn't play well, and now it's very likely that a new player learns what they are supposed to press.

I do think it would really help them to do all this if there was a tree that made it really simple and merged all the most important and basic stuff into a few buttons, and another where it's more complex allowing for greater decision-making and flexibility, so that both types of players can be satisfied.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

If the dont fix the content all a skill tree is going to be is path a leads to a x% damage buff on a 2 minute timer. path b leads to a x% crit buff on a 2 minute timer. path c leads to a x% direct hit buff on a 2 minute timer. BORING!!!!!!

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Not really true, the current 2-min meta exists entirely because every party buff is designed around it. And because pumping all your damage into a large multiplier window is the baseline the few outliers who can not take as much advantage of that single big damage window always severely underperform.
Simply taking that restriction out would already help a lot, as long as jobs within a role have roughly the same output over X amount of time it doesn't matter how they get there.

The fights in Stormblood and even Shadowbringers were not significantly different than they are now, you just had jobs with wildly different damage profiles, buff cooldowns, strengths and durations.
The content was the same, the jobs weren't, and it worked well enough in SB to differentiate each job. Obviously it wasn't perfect, but even with some underperformers (*cough* Whitemage) each job in a given role had a distinct enough playstyle.

What I do agree on however is that the current content leaves pretty much no design space besides "do more damage, take less damage and heal damage", everything besides damage has been systematically removed and that makes the pool of how you can design a job very shallow.


The problem is that their current approach to fixing the issue is inevitably going to fail, because both are interlinked.
They can not design 7.X fights around anything but doing damage and mitigating damage, because 7.X jobs can not perform anything else.

So by 8.X and the supposed job rework we will still only have content designed around dealing damage.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

The main issue with doing that is jobs are very fixed in what they can do. As it stands, they want a person to be able to "main" a single job and never change from it. In order to allow some jobs to be significantly stronger in some fights but not others, they would need to expect people to play multiple jobs, or remove the concept of jobs and allow them be able to switch what abilities they can use at will like Blue Mages do

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IMO much of this also stems from encounter design and the fact raids for example are literally 1 room 1 boss. If raids were bigger and contained multiple bosses. something akin to alliance raids you could then create scenarios where boss Job X is weak in bosses A and D. but stronger in bosses B and E. and fairly middle of the road in boss C. Job Y by contrast may be strong against bosses A and C but we weaker against bosses B and D, middle of the road for boss E.

Well designed content would create so much opportunity. in a way you could liken it to an FPS. a well designed map has areas that favour differing builds. open areas of the map likely favour sniper rifles, enclosed areas may favour shotguns or smgs. but a player cannot carry every type of weapon in there loadout at the same time. so naturally in some areas of the map they will have the upper hand. in others they will be at a disadvantage. this is what makes it fun and interesting.

This would also keep to the philosophy that players still only "need" 1 job as its weaknesses would be compensated by its strengths over content as a whole not per individual encounter.

ffxiv content is currently 1 big room 1 big boss. and thats one of its big problems. fixing that would be a massive first step towards fixing everything else

I'll quote myself from a different thread.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

8.0 Copium.

Players won't be happy if some jobs perform better or have an advantage in certain encounters :rolleyes:

I'm a big fan of 'meta'. Let job selection matter for World Race, Week 1 Savage again.

Usually, people asking for unique gameplay are also asking for jobs within the same role to output similar damage numbers. Which for me feels meh. Making jobs unique should also affect their skill ceiling and their damage output.

But I guess the vast majority of players want/prefer fun gameplay over rewarding gameplay. Combining both fun and rewarding seems to be mission impossible for most games.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

I'll quote myself from a different thread.

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I think they can manage balance (not perfect balance oc but it will only affect HC raiders) + reward + fun

they did it in HW

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Originally Posted by Dzian

IMO much of this also stems from encounter design and the fact raids for example are literally 1 room 1 boss. If raids were bigger and contained multiple bosses. something akin to alliance raids you could then create scenarios where boss Job X is weak in bosses A and D. but stronger in bosses B and E. and fairly middle of the road in boss C. Job Y by contrast may be strong against bosses A and C but we weaker against bosses B and D, middle of the road for boss E.

Well designed content would create so much opportunity. in a way you could liken it to an FPS. a well designed map has areas that favour differing builds. open areas of the map likely favour sniper rifles, enclosed areas may favour shotguns or smgs. but a player cannot carry every type of weapon in there loadout at the same time. so naturally in some areas of the map they will have the upper hand. in others they will be at a disadvantage. this is what makes it fun and interesting.

ffxiv content is currently 1 big room 1 big boss. and thats one of its big problems. fixing that would be a massive first step towards fixing everything else

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I also raid in WoW

I dont think that the "1 room 1 boss" policy is worse than the "open area raid"

it's just about expanding jobs identity/complexity

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Originally Posted by CaedemSanguis

I think they can manage balance (not perfect balance oc but it will only affect HC raiders) + reward + fun

they did it in HW

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Heavensward & even Stromblood got a lot of backlash from the playerbase.

People constantly complained if their favorite job wasn't part of meta. Most of the people complaining aren't even participating in World Race nor clearing Savage week 1.

Non-meta comps can still clear Savage week 3~4 just fine with tome gear & Savage loot drops. Yet, people still complained just because they want to feel good about playing a meta job.

There were a lot of problems in PF. People were locking out/kicking certain jobs because they're not part of meta. Despite the fact that it was probably week 4+ where forcing meta is redundant.

https://media.giphy.com/media/c1dwjOnIrYkUg/giphy.gif

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Originally Posted by Dzian

IMO much of this also stems from encounter design and the fact raids for example are literally 1 room 1 boss. If raids were bigger and contained multiple bosses. something akin to alliance raids you could then create scenarios where boss Job X is weak in bosses A and D. but stronger in bosses B and E. and fairly middle of the road in boss C. Job Y by contrast may be strong against bosses A and C but we weaker against bosses B and D, middle of the road for boss E.

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That's a good idea. It's true that it is usually just 1 boss. They have split them up sometimes (like O12), but it's rare overall.

I assume it's a Final Fantasy thing. FF games are typically about that 1 small party vs 1 villain, whereas other games may be content with "50 players fighting a war" and be able to make as many villains as they want.

So if they split it up they have to move away from that more often and say that it's not 1 villain. Still, they have usually managed to make an add phase in most fights that they could use better in some of the ways you mentioned, such as when they bring other ascians back in Hades.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

There were a lot of problems in PF. People were locking out/kicking certain jobs because they're not part of meta. Despite the fact that it was probably week 4+ where forcing meta is redundant.

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People locking out jobs is greatly exaggerated, might've been a case in early SB where Samurai would get oneshot by raid wides and Whitemage generated so much enmity it was an actual pain to deal with. The sentiment got occasionally carried over into Sigmascape but it wasn't exactly rampant.

And during Alphascape I never had a problem getting into a pf group, even on the lower performing jobs.

Were people complaining? Of course. Shitters, because let's be honest that's what they are, will always complain that their job isn't the best, is too hard, too clunky, too whatever, because they want all of the glory with none of the work.
That is never going to change, no matter how failure-proof they make the gameplay.

At some point the devs need to realize that designing job gameplay for the absolute lowest common denominator is a futile effort, because they will tunnel right under whatever floor they put the bar on.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

Well designed content would create so much opportunity. in a way you could liken it to an FPS. a well designed map has areas that favour differing builds. open areas of the map likely favour sniper rifles, enclosed areas may favour shotguns or smgs. but a player cannot carry every type of weapon in there loadout at the same time. so naturally in some areas of the map they will have the upper hand. in others they will be at a disadvantage. this is what makes it fun and interesting.

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The part here that doesn't match up is choice. in FPS, you have a set loadout, you know where in a map your strong points are, so you gravitate towards those areas, you might have to go through an undesirable area, but that might be a risk you have to take to give yourself a better advantage later on.

If you had a raid with 4 bosses, you don't get to choose which one you fight or not fight, you have to fight them all, you are forced into that encounter with a less than desirable choice. Rather than you calculating the risk, and making the choice based on several factors, you have been forced into it. It is the choice that makes it interesting.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

I'll quote myself from a different thread.

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This is conflating rewarding with skill ceiling and damage output.
This is also trying to wedge an opposition between fun and rewarding, which is a bit mindblowing to me.

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Originally Posted by Yeol

There were a lot of problems in PF. People were locking out/kicking certain jobs because they're not part of meta. Despite the fact that it was probably week 4+ where forcing meta is redundant.

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No more than today. And I've raided on Aether back in SB and have virtually never seen jobs locked out of PF beyond "log runs", and Aether has always been notorious for weird takes with this.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

The part here that doesn't match up is choice. in FPS, you have a set loadout, you know where in a map your strong points are, so you gravitate towards those areas, you might have to go through an undesirable area, but that might be a risk you have to take to give yourself a better advantage later on.

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that depends on the map and the objective i guess. are you going to never cpature that cp or flag and help your team win because you have to navigate a section of a map thats less favorable to you?.

another example could be a race track. 3 cars 1 has the best acceleration. 1 has the best top speed. 1 has the best handling. you'll never make it to the finish line just staying on the part of the track where your car has the advantage over the others.. a well designed track will have sections where all 3 of those cars are superior.

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Originally Posted by Dzian

that depends on the map and the objective i guess. are you going to never cpature that cp or flag and help your team win because you have to navigate a section of a map thats less favorable to you?.

another example could be a race track. 3 cars 1 has the best acceleration. 1 has the best top speed. 1 has the best handling. you'll never make it to the finish line just staying on the part of the track where your car has the advantage over the others.. a well designed track will have sections where all 3 of those cars are superior.

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If you know the map and goal, you swap your loadout before you go in to give yourself a better advantage. If you cannot change after finding out the map and objective, you alter your strategy to make the best use of the tools you have. In both cases, you adapt to the situation.

FFXIV would be the first one, you know what to expect (once you know what to expect, you can plan for it), so you change your party to best suit the situation.

As for the cars, no track is perfect, so you will alter some aspects of the car to better suit the track, this is despite the track having aspects that better suit one car over another. This is, again, a case of, choosing the best party for the job.

And let's be clear here, it isn't even a simple case of job X is physical and job Y is magical, Paladin, Dark Knight, Ninja and others do have both types of damage.

I will reiterate again, knowing the map, the track etc. allows you to adapt your loadout, your car etc. to better suit this map/track. You choose how you want to tackle that obstacle. FFXIV, you would have no choice. Boss 1 and 2 are Physical and Boss 3 and 4 are Magical. If it were to all even out in the end, why bother? You haven't made anything interesting except reducing the damage from some people arbitrarily. So why try and balance around it.

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Originally Posted by Valence

This is conflating rewarding with skill ceiling and damage output.
This is also trying to wedge an opposition between fun and rewarding, which is a bit mindblowing to me.

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Part of the reward for playing a high-ceiling job correctly is dealing more damage. This doesn't mean that more punishing jobs aren't fun to play. HW DRK & MCH come to mind. It felt satisfying & rewarding when playing them correctly. They were punishing to mistakes, but still fun. Others might disagree & say they had a bad design. This entire topic about job design & what people find fun is subjective. What we should agree on is that more effort should be rewarded with more damage. Equating high effort with low effort is not fair.