Still no auto-combo for 123 on old jobs.

Honestly, using the red mage example, I would have preferred the new moves have their own buttons and put the 1-2-3 melee combo on one button. I hate having to proc the new moves from buffs.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kalocin

I'd rather they just remove the combos entirely at this point and make all the jobs have newer things they can do in place of it. The combo system is kind of a holdover from when you had to be careful with* gcd timers and also not clip the combo. These days it's just filler since there's not much thought behind when you need to finish it. Kind of defeats the purpose of it being a "combo" if you can interrupt it lol.

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The fact that every single melee job (dps and tank) spends the majority of their gameplay doing the exact same combo over and over is insane.

I feel like the spirit of a combo is that it is a sequence of different inputs so by condensing a combo you are turning that sequence of actions into spam. There is a mechanically aesthetic difference between spamming a combo versus spamming a single button that I think should be considered -- especially if we care about things like job identity.

I feel like a lot of y'all are a bit too eager to want jobs to be even further simplified, and mechanically homogenized by turning all combo jobs into spam jobs for the sake of convince, and efficiency.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by mallleable

I feel like the spirit of a combo is that it is a sequence of different inputs so by condensing a combo you are turning that sequence of actions into spam. There is a mechanically aesthetic difference between spamming a combo versus spamming a single button that I think should be considered -- especially if we care about things like job identity.

I feel like a lot of y'all are a bit too eager to want jobs to be even further simplified, and mechanically homogenized by turning all combo jobs into spam jobs for the sake of convince, and efficiency.

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Rolling your face on the keyboard is not complexity it's carpel tunnel. It only creates a false sense of complexity when in fact the rotation is extremely static and most jobs have 0 liberty on which buttons to press in which sequence since most of them are also pre-determined.

There is absolutely no reason for a linear combo to take 3 slots instead of 1.

I wish I had the liberty to chain whatever skill I wanted and customize which spells were highlighted. (man, I miss Tera..lol)

On one hand it's bad that they don't listen to most of the feedback, on the other hand, thank god they don't, imagine making the game even more braindead. You can fail doing a 1-2-3 combo, maybe because you're doing some difficult content, if you're under stress, tired, or if you simply fatfingering buttons. Imagine pressing 1,1,1,1,1 for 90% of a fight.
I'm definitely sure people that want 1-2-3 combos to be compressed on a single button don't play healers in any form of ex/savage/ultimate content.

I don't really care about this, but if they combine those buttons then in return I'd like them to split up utility skills with multiple effects. Make the PLD 2min CD and the shield 2 buttons or make the SCH speed and damage reduction two buttons, stuff like that.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dwodmots

I don't really care about this, but if they combine those buttons then in return I'd like them to split up utility skills with multiple effects. Make the PLD 2min CD and the shield 2 buttons or make the SCH speed and damage reduction two buttons, stuff like that.

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If we split up SCH skills that have multiple effects SCH will have in excess of 50 buttons. SCH has skills that have 4-6 unique effects on one skill

With the rate at which they're simplifying the jobs they might as well add an auto play button >.>
I genuinely do not understand this brainrot. Why do people want everything dumbed down to the max?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

I'll only want this if they add more other dps buttons to the old jobs & make it optional.

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Ah yes, i love those new buttons we got on Drk and Drg after they removed so much shit.
We lost 3-5 buttons, but hey! You now get to press a button you were already pressing 1 (one) additional time.
I've just given up on this game lol. Everything is being dumbed down until all that's left is 123 and then people will still want that consolidated into 1 button.
I'm kinda just waiting for my sub time to run out at this point. This community thinks every sort of gameplay friction is bad until everything is completely braindead and unengaging.
If there's no mastery to the gameplay, i don't really think this game has much to offer for people who want to play long term.

FFXIV community: 1 button healer rotations are boring.

Also FFXIV community: make every job 15 seconds of burst and then 45 seconds of pressing 1 button.

It's bad players trying to remove as much friction as possible so they can parse high.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

It's bad players trying to remove as much friction as possible so they can parse high.

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You pretty much explained every change since 5.0

anyways im in support of less buttons because i don't really want carpal tunnel coming for me any faster

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Ah yes, i love those new buttons we got on Drk and Drg after they removed so much shit.
We lost 3-5 buttons, but hey! You now get to press a button you were already pressing 1 (one) additional time.
I've just given up on this game lol. Everything is being dumbed down until all that's left is 123 and then people will still want that consolidated into 1 button.
I'm kinda just waiting for my sub time to run out at this point. This community thinks every sort of gameplay friction is bad until everything is completely braindead and unengaging.
If there's no mastery to the gameplay, i don't really think this game has much to offer for people who want to play long term.

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Well I don't really know how to even argue back because it's not like i don't fully disagree with you, I do think jobs need friction and way more nuances, I personally don't want forced Auto combo but I'm fine with it being optional because I know I'll not be using it lol. I'm against recent dragoon, ninja changes, Dark knight 7.0 was disappointing, I preferred paladin in 6.2 I'm the type of person to complain about recent gameplay changes and have for a long time lol.

When i say "more buttons" I mean more actual substantial buttons (not ones you press once every 60s or 120s for burst), I'd love more then one generic combo path on tanks, more ocgds that aren't just tied to burst, more procs (honestly ff14 misses a lot with basically only having one proc based job).

I don't know why you'd assume my sentence is asking for 1, 1, 1 spam and like 1 or 2 burst buttons tbh, the reason why I said it should be Optional is because I wouldn't want a 1, 1, 1 rotation, hence adding more buttons would enhance my gameplay experience because I do not care if someone else wants to just press 1 button or not.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by poooman

anyways im in support of less buttons because i don't really want carpal tunnel coming for me any faster

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Pressing 1 button every 2.5 seconds is no different from pressing a different button every 2.5 seconds in this regard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by BigCheez

Pressing 1 button every 2.5 seconds is no different from pressing a different button every 2.5 seconds in this regard.

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Unless you have a terrible hotkey setup and need to play piano for your rotation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

Well I don't really know how to even argue back because it's not like i don't fully disagree with you, I do think jobs need friction and way more nuances, I personally don't want forced Auto combo but I'm fine with it being optional because I know I'll not be using it lol. I'm against recent dragoon, ninja changes, Dark knight 7.0 was disappointing, I preferred paladin in 6.2 I'm the type of person to complain about recent gameplay changes and have for a long time lol.

When i say "more buttons" I mean more actual substantial buttons (not ones you press once every 60s or 120s for burst), I'd love more then one generic combo path on tanks, more ocgds that aren't just tied to burst, more procs (honestly ff14 misses a lot with basically only having one proc based job).

I don't know why you'd assume my sentence is asking for 1, 1, 1 spam and like 1 or 2 burst buttons tbh, the reason why I said it should be Optional is because I wouldn't want a 1, 1, 1 rotation, hence adding more buttons would enhance my gameplay experience because I do not care if someone else wants to just press 1 button or not.

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But if you know they won't deliver those meaningful new buttons, why would you advocate for the removal of the buttons we still have when you know that's something they'll actually do.
The end result is just less interesting gameplay. You KNOW that they'll consolidate the GCD combo into the same braindead 1111111111111111 spam that healers have if people keep asking for it. Because they have a trackrecord of oversimplifying the game. And that they won't give us new buttons to press, because they hardly ever do. All you're doing when you're asking for consolidation of buttons to ''make room for new buttons'', is contributing to the oversimplification of the game. They don't give us new buttons.

It goes without saying that condensing combos would have to come with new buttons that interact nicely with the kit and bring engaging gameplay... Else no thanks? Everyone agrees with this?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

But if you know they won't deliver those meaningful new buttons, why would you advocate for the removal of the buttons we still have when you know that's something they'll actually do.
The end result is just less interesting gameplay. You KNOW that they'll consolidate the GCD combo into the same braindead 1111111111111111 spam that healers have if people keep asking for it. Because they have a trackrecord of oversimplifying the game. And that they won't give us new buttons to press, because they hardly ever do. All you're doing when you're asking for consolidation of buttons to ''make room for new buttons'', is contributing to the oversimplification of the game. They don't give us new buttons.

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Your acting like I'm a massive advocate for auto combo, I just started my opinion that if they add auto combo I rather they actually make the jobs more interesting and make it optional so it doesn't affect me.

I'm sure your right that they are likely not going to make jobs interesting, but to me things can't really get any lower then current job design anyway, I guess if they forced us to use auto combo then sure, but the bar is already so low... We need to be asking for change in jobs as the current design is just more boring shadowbringers, If we fear change constantly things will never get better also.

Me as a samurai main wonder how they'd even consolidate that. Either we end up all extremely suboptimal or they adjust the numbers to let it be brain dead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ExESGO

Me as a samurai main wonder how they'd even consolidate that. Either we end up all extremely suboptimal or they adjust the numbers to let it be brain dead.

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we have decided to remove your alternative combos, new gauge which fills up after using 2 two Gekkos you will get a midare which is now instant cast

please look forward to it.

Going off their current job design, I guess Sam would just press 1 over and over and over again until we can pop our finisher and then we go back to bashing our forehead on 1 until we get to use another finisher.
They don't have a track record of building on the gameplay, they just remove and make things braindead. If you *genuinely* think they won't do this, look no further than the healers.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rithy255

we have decided to remove your alternative combos, new gauge which fills up after using 2 two Gekkos you will get a midare which is now instant cast

please look forward to it.

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This.
Combos consolidated into 1-2-3, builds up another gauge or maybe they keep a generic SAM sticker (just so you don't have two gauges), spend 50 gauge/2 stickers to Midare.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

Combos consolidated into 1-2-3, builds up another gauge or maybe they keep a generic SAM sticker (just so you don't have two gauges), spend 50 gauge/2 stickers to Midare.

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Pictomancer says, "Hi!"

Combos consolidated into 1-2-3, builds up the palette gauge and gives you a white paint sticker. Spend 50 gauge to empower attacks. Spend a sticker for an instant cast.

I've said it before and I'll say it again: the existence of consolidated combos isn't a factor about how complex or simple a job is. Picto takes more thought than most of the melee jobs and has its buttons consolidated, SMN could remove most of its consolidation into about 40 separate skills and it'd still boring (putting the Ifrit dash combo into 2 buttons doesn't suddenly make SMN fun).

A combo represents a single choice 90% of the time in a kit, there's no reason to press 2 a second time in a row, or press 3 immediately after 1. If combos were more free-form and had different effects based on when they were used in a combo, then there'd be an extremely valid reason to not consolidate (Monk being the prime example of such a job thanks to Perfect Balance). Aravell brought up one of the few times breaking a combo is valid (restoring MP via 1-2-1-2 on PLD), I'd also agree with breaking combos for alignment reasons. Outside that, I don't see why there shouldn't be an option to consolidate them (with an option to not only keep the combos as-is, but also to separate many of the new combos that got introduced).

As for SAM, consolidated combos would mean that it gets 5 buttons to represent its combos; 3 for single target, 2 for AoE. Consolidated combos != 1 button job, if a job suddenly starts playing like a healer because of consolidation, then I'd argue that the job already plays like one and the combo is just an illusion of depth (hello DRK). The problem of job design has to do with the jobs lacking depth, personality, and interactivity, not whether it uses 1-1-1 or 1-2-3 for its filler.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by TheDustyOne

Picto takes more thought than most of the melee jobs

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Does it, though?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Absurdity

This.
Combos consolidated into 1-2-3, builds up another gauge or maybe they keep a generic SAM sticker (just so you don't have two gauges), spend 50 gauge/2 stickers to Midare.

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But the midare will be instant cast you gotta remember what they did with ninja this patch lol.

Consolidating the 123s while NOT adding any new skills would be the entire point here. The point is not removing 123s because they're hard to execute, the point is that it's a pain to fit them on the keyboard in a way that makes sense, while still being able to fit the other 25-30 skills somewhere and all that in a way that still allows you to move your character and won't make your hand ache after 15 minutes.

Besides that, I really do feel like that this game has already reached it's button count <> game complexity point, possibly long ago. There's no need to have 50 skills that do nothing but combo'ing into each other with ''10 added Potency''. I mean, I really do like FFXIV otherwise I wouldn't be here playing the game and doing posts trying to make it better but I'm not oblivious to the fact that the game mechanics/job mechanics/enemy mechanics are actually way simpler than what even Vanilla WoW had in 2004. Which might be fair seeing that it's a console game that needs to be playable while lying on the couch with a controller.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kandraxx

Consolidating the 123s while NOT adding any new skills would be the entire point here. The point is not removing 123s because they're hard to execute, the point is that it's a pain to fit them on the keyboard in a way that makes sense, while still being able to fit the other 25-30 skills somewhere and all that in a way that still allows you to move your character and won't make your hand ache after 15 minutes.

Besides that, I really do feel like that this game has already reached it's button count <> game complexity point, possibly long ago. There's no need to have 50 skills that do nothing but combo'ing into each other with ''10 added Potency''. I mean, I really do like FFXIV otherwise I wouldn't be here playing the game and doing posts trying to make it better but I'm not oblivious to the fact that the game mechanics/job mechanics/enemy mechanics are actually way simpler than what even Vanilla WoW had in 2004. Which might be fair seeing that it's a console game that needs to be playable while lying on the couch with a controller.

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People like you genuinely leave me fucking baffled.
The combat is fucking braindead already. How boring do you want the game to be?
Why not just play a mobile game with an autoplay feature if you hate pressing buttons in a videogame so much?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

People like you genuinely leave me fucking baffled.
The combat is fucking braindead already. How boring do you want the game to be?
Why not just play a mobile game with an autoplay feature if you hate pressing buttons in a videogame so much?

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What is exciting or engaging about pressing 30 buttons in a fixed rotation that all do nothing but damage? It doesn't make a game that has maxed out it's core complexity more compelling to play. There is an exact reason why it's possible to clear the games hardest content with 1-button-hacks. What is ''fing braindead'' is not removing mundane/nonsensical buttons but the game design itself. Open world basically doesn't exist and all the mainstream instanced content is ''dodge orange/watch arms + gimmick mechanic X'' inside a tiny box. So either you are like me and found your love in side content or really good friends keep you logging on or you probably already left for greener grass elsewhere.

I mean, if you, others or Yoshida himself really feel like that a job must be stuffed with 40 clockwork-like skills, no matter how nonsensical and 'dial a combo' mechanics for the game to not enter mobile territory then something is fundamentally wrong.

If a job has 36 skills then its skills should be designed like SCH (ignoring its boring as sin rotation). Not like VPR or SAM

Having 30+ skills that are all a fixed rotation+damage oGCD’s is part of what’s wrong with modern class design

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

People like you genuinely leave me fucking baffled.
The combat is fucking braindead already. How boring do you want the game to be?
Why not just play a mobile game with an autoplay feature if you hate pressing buttons in a videogame so much?

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>> "I don't want to lose comfortable and more reactive button-space for my more interesting forms of agency just to support an absurd arbitrary need to cycle keys across what is in essence just Broil-part-1, Broil-part-2, and Broil-part-3. If that then puts due emphasis on how braindead the actual underlying game is, all the better; then we'll have the leverage to actually make a difference where it matters, which isn't just by needlessly playing fall-away-platforms with our filler action for 2 out of 5 roles."

<< "If you so hate complexity in hitting 3 different buttons just to continue the same action, why don't you just play an idle game?!"

...???

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kandraxx

I mean, if you... really feel like that a job must be stuffed with 40 clockwork-like skills, no matter how nonsensical and 'dial a combo' mechanics for the game to not enter mobile territory then something is fundamentally wrong.

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I don't much plan to consolidate anything, especially if we just get some basic agency increases to make combos less purely bloat/waste --I just think people should be allowed to do as they please in that regard-- but I have to agree with this.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

If a job has 36 skills then its skills should be designed like SCH (ignoring its boring as sin rotation). Not like VPR or SAM

Having 30+ skills that are all a fixed rotation+damage oGCD’s is part of what’s wrong with modern class design

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Sure, I guess, but whether CDs are fixed or not has nothing to do with button consolidation.

Nor is a design like SCH's, if applied to a DPS, going to be any less fixed than any other DPS's design. Gauges, for instance, are ultimately just CDs that start on cooldown and punish you for downtime.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

>> "I don't want to lose comfortable and more reactive button-space for my more interesting forms of agency just to support an absurd arbitrary need to cycle keys across what is in essence just Broil-part-1, Broil-part-2, and Broil-part-3."

<< "Well why don't you just play an idle game?!"

...




Sure, I guess, but whether CDs are fixed or not has nothing to do with button consolidation.

Nor is a design like SCH's, if applied to a DPS, going to be any less fixed than any other DPS's design. Gauges, for instance, are ultimately just CDs that start on cooldown and punish you for downtime.

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That’s implying that a “DPS SCH” would have all its disconnected skills just be damage. There is a lot of design you could play around with for a DPS SCH if things weren’t so rigid on the combat side. Utility, augmentation of different paths that last indefinitely till you swap them opposing powerful skills that put each other on CD and have distinctive niches. Alternating between buff heavy and selfish based on party composition

Basically a job that has a lot of options and tunes those options to the fight itself sorta like how SCH plays its opposing CD’s based on what it needs at the time rather than the current DPS design of trying to fit an ultra rigid rotation into the fight with minimal deviance

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

That’s implying that a “DPS SCH” would have all its disconnected skills just be damage. There is a lot of design you could play around with for a DPS SCH if things weren’t so rigid on the combat side. Utility, augmentation of different paths that last indefinitely till you swap them opposing powerful skills that put each other on CD and have distinctive niches. Alternating between buff heavy and selfish based on party composition

Basically a job that has a lot of options and tunes those options to the fight itself sorta like how SCH plays its opposing CD’s based on what it needs at the time rather than the current DPS design of trying to fit an ultra rigid rotation into the fight with minimal deviance

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I mean, if you could sample something like that, I'd probably be all for it. It's worked, more or less, for a few DPS specs in WoW, for instance (and no, I'm not talking about Aug).

The issue, though, is that I suspect that has more to do with the combat content themselves. Were their fights' profiles were as unvaried as XIV's, they would likewise fall into a perfectly strict obvious(ly) optimal rotation.

XIV combat is simple first and foremost because that's all its combat content incentivizes (and thereby [or, and ultimately] allows for).

• We don't have interesting disengagement tools because we scarcely have any disengagement. We don't have any suppression tools because there's nothing to interestingly suppress nor desire to allow that.
• We don't have interesting support tools because there's no use cases for them that wouldn't just be subsumed into rotational or obligatory events of damage increase.
• We don't have meaningful DPS-CD holding in part, yes, because some would then be worse hit than others (especially in PuGs) for needing to hold CDs but mostly because there are scarcely any DPS checks worth holding CDs for.
• And, similarly, we don't have anything but scheduled tank and healer CDs since there's nothing that would incentivize their use earlier while still allowing later at-cost recovery, at least outside of obviously bad play.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

>> "I don't want to lose comfortable and more reactive button-space for my more interesting forms of agency just to support an absurd arbitrary need to cycle keys across what is in essence just Broil-part-1, Broil-part-2, and Broil-part-3. If that then puts due emphasis on how braindead the actual underlying game is, all the better; then we'll have the leverage to actually make a difference where it matters, which isn't just by needlessly playing fall-away-platforms with our filler action for 2 out of 5 roles."

<< "If you so hate complexity in hitting 3 different buttons just to continue the same action, why don't you just play an idle game?!"

...???



I don't much plan to consolidate anything, especially if we just get some basic agency increases to make combos less purely bloat/waste --I just think people should be allowed to do as they please in that regard-- but I have to agree with this.




Sure, I guess, but whether CDs are fixed or not has nothing to do with button consolidation.

Nor is a design like SCH's, if applied to a DPS, going to be any less fixed than any other DPS's design. Gauges, for instance, are ultimately just CDs that start on cooldown and punish you for downtime.

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Why are you pretending that this is only about the 123 button consolidation?
It's about the bizarre desire to simplify things *even further*.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Why are you pretending that this is only about the 123 button consolidation?
It's about the bizarre desire to simplify things *even further*.

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It's very literally about combo consolidation:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kandraxx

So, came back to FF14 recently, now 7.1 happened and there’s still no option to put 123 combos most jobs are plagued with on one button. I know that this somehow is and seemingly forever has to be a very sad topic in this game that’s being discussed dating back years and years if you google it and I don’t even know why. It already exists in the game officially and only needs to be copy-pasted over from the PvP spell book.

RDM is probably the biggest offender here. A situational melee 123 on a caster, that takes 3 semi-good keys (because you still use it regularly and possibly during movement). You will never use it outside of specific conditions, you will never use only step 1, you will never start with step 2, you will never use 1-2-1, it makes no sense that it’s 3 different skills.

I know that when you’re on PC you can kinda help yourself but that just feels wrong.

Make it an OPTION, put it in the accessibility options if you absolutely have to so a tiny minority can continue to pretend that this game is esports and the possibility of fumbling inputs due to overbloated and suboptimal bindings should be a major part of the PvE experience.

Thank you SE.

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Even if we were to assume that the OP did not mean what they clearly said, intended to expand beyond the bounds mentioned, or were otherwise conspiratorially trying to simplify the game despite their many complaints about it being too simple (and masking this through button-bloat)...

...we'd be left with, at most, the option to make other mutually exclusive and/or "unlocked" actions share a key. ...Oh no?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

It's very literally about combo consolidation:
Even if we were to assume that the OP did not mean what they clearly said, intended to expand beyond the bounds mentioned, or were otherwise conspiratorially trying to simplify the game despite their many complaints about it being too simple (and masking this through button-bloat)...

...we'd be left with, at most, the option to make other mutually exclusive and/or "unlocked" actions share a key. ...Oh no?

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Am i really going to have to explain why i don't understand why people ask for further simplification when the game is already oversimplistic?
Do you really want me to go over why the game is already overly simplistic, and asking for further simplification is fucking weird to me?
Just fuck off at this point. I don't want to talk to you. I never made it *just* about the 123.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Am i really going to have to explain why i don't understand why people ask for further simplification when the game is already oversimplistic?

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What do you see as complexity?

If you, right now, could take every sequential action already consolidated and re-split them, would the game be more enjoyably "complex" for your doing so?

Heck, we could roll back upgrades taking the same key while we're at it, so we have to swap Gyofu and Hakaze, Fuga and Fuko, based on level, just as we had to do for Stone III/IV, etc. Would that likewise make the game more enjoyably "complex"?

For my part, complexity is in the decision-making.

• If one wanted to mudra out every complex action available (such that Seigan is, say, [Focus]->[Snow]->[Wind] in rapid succession between GCDs), I couldn't care less that they'd then be able to do that in fewer buttons via those combinations.
• Similarly, if one wanted to perform back-to-back Full Thrust combos off a single key, as compared to alternating Chaos and Full or spamming Chaos, I couldn't care less if they wanted to devote more buttons to a script that would reduce button presses.

What matters to me is purely whether there is a reward for holding Seigan, occasionally breaking from the standard rotational fluff, etc -- the actual nuance, the actual strategy, the actual opportunities for ingenuity -- not the button-count or restricting one's ability to customize said button-use. None of that is affected by the option for consolidation of mutually exclusive actions (or, like Disembowel after Vorpal, what would be mutually exclusive within any remotely proper play).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

I never made it *just* about the 123.

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Which makes it a really odd point of discussion to go at emotional length into when replying to someone who explicitly made it *just* about the 12(3).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

What do you see as complexity?

If you, right now, could take every sequential action already consolidated and re-split them, would the game be more enjoyably "complex" for your doing so?

Heck, we could roll back upgrades taking the same key while we're at it, so we have to swap Gyofu and Hakaze, Fuga and Fuko, based on level, just as we had to do for Stone III/IV, etc. Would that likewise make the game more enjoyably "complex"?

For my part, complexity is in the decision-making.

• If one wanted to mudra out every complex action available (such that Seigan is, say, [Focus]->[Snow]->[Wind] in rapid succession between GCDs), I couldn't care less that they'd then be able to do that in fewer buttons via those combinations.
• Similarly, if one wanted to perform back-to-back Full Thrust combos off a single key, as compared to alternating Chaos and Full or spamming Chaos, I couldn't care less if they wanted to devote more buttons to a script that would reduce button presses.

What matters to me is purely whether there is a reward for holding Seigan, occasionally breaking from the standard rotational fluff, etc -- the actual nuance, the actual strategy, the actual opportunities for ingenuity -- not the button-count or restricting one's ability to customize said button-use. None of that is affected by the option for consolidation of mutually exclusive actions (or, like Disembowel after Vorpal, what would be mutually exclusive within any remotely proper play).



Which makes it a really odd point of discussion to go at emotional length into when replying to someone who explicitly made it *just* about the 12(3).

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It's the constant push for further simplification in general.
People ''just'' wanted burst windows simplified.
People ''just'' wanted gapcloser potency removed.
People ''just'' wanted animation locks removed.
People ''Just'' wanted busy weave windows removed.
People ''just'' wanted slightly less button bloat.
People still want positionals removed.
People still want their GCD's consolidated onto a single button.

If you question or criticise any of these suggestions, people immediately think of the one suggestion in a vaccuum and it's annoying. Because you can never put the simplification process to question.
At a certain point you just got to ask; when will people be happy? Because idk about you but i find myself having less and less fun with 14 the more they remove abilities and simplify the game.
Look at how the healers ended up. I can not stomach playing them because i don't want to press 1 button over and over. Is that the extent that people want to take things? Because it genuinely seems that way.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

What do you see as complexity?

If you, right now, could take every sequential action already consolidated and re-split them, would the game be more enjoyably "complex" for your doing so?

Heck, we could roll back upgrades taking the same key while we're at it, so we have to swap Gyofu and Hakaze, Fuga and Fuko, based on level, just as we had to do for Stone III/IV, etc. Would that likewise make the game more enjoyably "complex"?

For my part, complexity is in the decision-making.

• If one wanted to mudra out every complex action available (such that Seigan is, say, [Focus]->[Snow]->[Wind] in rapid succession between GCDs), I couldn't care less that they'd then be able to do that in fewer buttons via those combinations.
• Similarly, if one wanted to perform back-to-back Full Thrust combos off a single key, as compared to alternating Chaos and Full or spamming Chaos, I couldn't care less if they wanted to devote more buttons to a script that would reduce button presses.

What matters to me is purely whether there is a reward for holding Seigan, occasionally breaking from the standard rotational fluff, etc -- the actual nuance, the actual strategy, the actual opportunities for ingenuity -- not the button-count or restricting one's ability to customize said button-use. None of that is affected by the option for consolidation of mutually exclusive actions (or, like Disembowel after Vorpal, what would be mutually exclusive within any remotely proper play).



Which makes it a really odd point of discussion to go at emotional length into when replying to someone who explicitly made it *just* about the 12(3).

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The problem is that the game is dying a death by a thousand cuts. When you take any one of the "streamlining" changes that were implemented since Shb and look at it in a vacuum, it looks fine, but when you look at the big picture - the game is just boring as hell now because so many features and points of friction have been stripped away and eroded over time.

We're at the point where the game absolutely cannot afford to be further simplified. It needs a lot of the old complexity brought back.