Luckybancho census shows criterion savage was a complete and utter failure

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LianaThorne

It's similar to DRS imo, dying in there is 50/50 you'll get kicked out of the dungeon due to limited raises if a bunch of other people die at the same time as you.

---

Maybe in a prog run without many veteran helpers. And chances are if that many people are dying at the same time, it wasn't going to be a clear anyway so not having enough arises is irrelevant.

I've been reclearing DRS on the weekly with a friend group for months now that runs a ton of DRS through discords, and the healers carry arises out the absolute wazoo because they have lots of free bag space. We haven't had a single person not reach the end of the instance since I started doing it across like, 20 clears, even with runs that had a bunch of memery and 20+ deaths across the instance. Long as you're in a clear run hosted by one of the big DRS discords, death is basically a nothing burger in DRS.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

So, the consensus is that Criterion is a failure because they took players at their word about "wanting something harder", when they actually meant "wanting something a little bit harder while expecting awards commensurate with the difficulty that will totally not draw players away from other Savage instances".

The telling bit about the luckybancho analysis is that it is based on "having the achievement and having it public". The current default on Lodestone is to make all of that information private.

And, of course, luckybancho ignores all players who have yet to reach level 70 in their analysis.

---

I love how this comically ignores what the playerbase actually asked for because god forbid to blame the dev team for missing the mark.

When they initially announced Criterion, they specifically said the "Normal" would be on par with Extreme level difficulty. Instead, they made it essentially Savage light and made the actual Savage closer to a mini-Ultimate, all without any rewards or new mechanics in the latter's case. What's funny is raiders themselves have been begging them to put Savage gear or upgrade materials in there. It wouldn't "draw them away" but potentially help speed up the process of alt gearing which a lot of raiders have been asking for as it allows them more flexibility to play other jobs. The only ones still holding Savage up on a ridiculous pedestal are the devs themselves.

Put bluntly, the dev team only heard "harder four man content" and ignored basically everything else that went along with that request. What many players have actually been clamouring for is something closer to Mythic+, i.e., content with genuine threat and challenge but can still be tackled without a premade. In other words, the literal bread and butter that has kept WoW alive for so many years. Criterion isn't even remotely close to that. Don't get me wrong. It's a good concept but one that was horrendously executed. The Savage variant is just... terrible. It's the exact same content but just "don't die." The general sentiment is had Criterion Savage allowed for mistakes but introduced new mechanics and actually gave rewards, people would be far more interested in doing it. As it stand, there's no real reason to touch it.

And what does Lucky ignoring 70 players matter? They can't even unlock the content until they've finished Endwalker, much less attempt it. Anyone below 90 is quite literally irrelevant in this analysis.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

And what does Lucky ignoring 70 players matter? They can't even unlock the content until they've finished Endwalker, much less attempt it. Anyone below 90 is quite literally irrelevant in this analysis.

---

The population of "active players" ignores anyone leveling through 70. That could be 1/10 or 1/3 or 1/2 of current players, for all we'll know. That's why it is not irrelevant in any analysis.

And I've been reading that ask for "harder four man content" for nearly a decade now ... not "Mythic+ dungeons please". Well, except over the last 4 years when the WoW players decided to migrate from the abominations that were Battle for Azeroth and Shadowlands.

Be thankful, or you'd be running some variant of Mythic+ Sastasha over and over and over and over and ...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

Plenty of fools in the forums then, because the issue of rewards was never broached.

---

Can't really say that since we have threads like this https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...therwise/page3 That being said, the threads really never gained any traction.

Nothing said on these forums matters anyway. I don't think the devs even look at them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

The population of "active players" ignores anyone leveling through 70. That could be 1/10 or 1/3 or 1/2 of current players, for all we'll know. That's why it is not irrelevant in any analysis.

And I've been reading that ask for "harder four man content" for nearly a decade now ... not "Mythic+ dungeons please". Well, except over the last 4 years when the WoW players decided to migrate from the abominations that were Battle for Azeroth and Shadowlands.

Be thankful, or you'd be running some variant of Mythic+ Sastasha over and over and over and over and ...

---

I can safely say m+ is a gigantic success in WoW while criterion is... well... a gigantic failure.

Idk why you're out here trying to tell people they should be grateful they aren't getting fun and rewarding content (aka m+) and that they should be happy with the unrewarding soulless bore that is criterion.

Please make it make sense lol, and last thing, stop pretending they read these forums, the only thing they might be reading are the JP ones if even that.

Before you speak nonsense, stick to the reality and don't blame the issues with that piece of content on the playerbase.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

The population of "active players" ignores anyone levelling through 70. That could be 1/10 or 1/3 or 1/2 of current players, for all we'll know. That's why it is not irrelevant in any analysis

---

They are irrelevant because this thread is about the bullet points concerning V&C dungeons, which any player under 90 can't unlock.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Can't really say that since we have threads like this

---

The problem with threads like this is that they were produced "after the fact" (aka 2023), rather than back in 2019, when WoW players started to emigrate to this game.

It's a 10 year old game (not counting the false start in 2010). It isn't going to last forever.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

The problem with threads like this is that they were produced "after the fact" (aka 2023), rather than back in 2019, when WoW players started to emigrate to this game.

---

Posts like the ones this person has made in this thread assume a supreme incompetence on the side of the devs. Neither reward structures nor content design are something that has never been done before. Criterion savage very clearly tries to emulate ultimate raids' reward structure, it simply fails in the content design. As is typical for many MMO players the first thing they point towards is the reward structure and it's very obvious that SE is aware of that. We know this because duty roulettes come with substantial rewards for participation, you are being bribed to fill groups essentially. This bribery exists in a lesser form for variant and criterion, they're just more comparable to the rewards given by an ex trial. There are mounts and glam pieces, as any ex trial's relevance to gearing is very short lived.

Ultimately I dont think the reward structure is the core issue. Variant isnt interesting because the lost actions it tries to emulate for convenience's sake are too condensed to open up the possibility of creating builds. Criterion suffered from a mismatch in expectation where SE initially made it seem like it was on the level of an ex trial when it is very clearly above that. Additionally it suffers from rez restrictions the current combat design just isnt used to and the job balance in 4 player content being very rough.
Criterion savage suffers from being the same fight but again. It is difficult but not in a way that seems interesting to many people. Slapping on higher damage, a no-death challenge run and messing up your cooldown alignment do infact make the content harder but not every kind of difficulty is fun.

The diamond in the rough is ultimately regular criterion and it is what imo SE should focus at.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Stormpeaks

I can safely say m+ is a gigantic success in WoW while criterion is... well... a gigantic failure.

Idk why you're out here trying to tell people they should be grateful they aren't getting fun and rewarding content (aka m+) and that they should be happy with the unrewarding soulless bore that is criterion.

Please make it make sense lol, and last thing, stop pretending they read these forums, the only thing they might be reading are the JP ones if even that.

Before you speak nonsense, stick to the reality and don't blame the issues with that piece of content on the playerbase.

---

Actually, this was one of the biggest fears I had - that what people were seeking was bringing M+ to FFXIV. My opinion is that WoW's focus on M+ is one of the things that led me to leave that game, as I saw it lead to a focus on e-sports and the utterly, utterly toxic crowd that attracts. It felt here like we had the WoW exodus going and a push to turn FFXIV into the same thing I had chosen to leave behind. I've been beyond grateful that the FFXIV devs didn't give Criterion meaningful gear rewards, and stuck to the philosophy that it's meant to be high-level content, but for 4-person groups instead of 8-man raids. The "reward" comes from the satisfaction of working together to defeat difficult content.

Personally, I wouldn't call M+ a "gigantic success", either. It's far from the only cause, but I count it as a significant part of WoW's decline. It's popular - among the select portion of the original playerbase that remains, but it helped drive out far more people in the process. That's not a success...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

The population of "active players" ignores anyone leveling through 70. That could be 1/10 or 1/3 or 1/2 of current players, for all we'll know. That's why it is not irrelevant in any analysis.

And I've been reading that ask for "harder four man content" for nearly a decade now ... not "Mythic+ dungeons please". Well, except over the last 4 years when the WoW players decided to migrate from the abominations that were Battle for Azeroth and Shadowlands.

Be thankful, or you'd be running some variant of Mythic+ Sastasha over and over and over and over and ...

---

We're specifically talking about the clear rates for Criterion though not the overall "active player" count. Hence why it isn't relative to this discussion. Regardless, Luckybancho does this to help mitigate bots and free trial accounts that don't stick around. He acknowledges it isn't a full proof system but more of a general estimation.

Then you haven't read often because I've been on this forum for nearly eight years on two separate accounts and seen Mythic+ brought up constantly. Nevermind elsewhere on the Internet. Hell, Mizzteq herself asked Yoshida directly during the Shadowbringers media tour. And I'm rather certain Happy's brought it up too. All of this was well before the WoW exodus.

I also love how your rebuttal is little more than a strawman. Where did I say they would copy M+ wholesale? FFXIV wouldn't necessarily use it for gear rewards like WoW does. Therefore, we wouldn't be spamming it the same way. Either way as Stormpeaks points out, M+ is widely successful whereas Criterion flopped so spectacularly I think Lord of Verminion has seen better numbers. Suffice it to say, maybe they're on to something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Saraide

The diamond in the rough is ultimately regular criterion and it is what imo SE should focus at.

---

I've said it multiple times before but it bears repeating. The simple solution is to reduce Criterion's difficulty to what it always should have been: EX while slightly bumping up Variant. Just enough to compensate for adding all the lost action nonsense and letting players go wild. From there, toss in the damn relic and make Criterion give a substantially bigger reward towards building it for incentive sake and bam, you've fixed the two major issues with Endwalker: lackluster repeatability and poor reward structure. Now the Savage version can abandon the whole "no rez" aspect that virtually no one likes and instead add new mechanics but require said lost actions and maybe set bonuses on your relic to succeed. Finally, you can slap the "no rez" on an achievement where it's always belonged and there you have it.

Why they ever thought Criterion in its current state would be attractive baffles me. Ultimate works because it's a brand new fight. Criterion Savage is literally the same thing but with higher damage numbers and raise. All for what had been no rewards. It was all but guaranteed to fail the second they released it in that state.

When I saw the rewards from Criterion/Criterion savage the moment they released this content, I instantly laughed and felt bad. They required you to run this sort of content with minimal deaths/no deaths for "Materia". Why bother with this when you can partake in a hunt train for x10times the reward and less time involved. Always felt like the team behind EW's patches do not understand the concept of meaningful rewards for time invested. 22minute encounter with multiple bosses/adds and all I get is weapon glamour though this is only worth it if the person has not done ultimate fights and isn't already using weapon glamour from that. True the item level is same as P12S savage though you can't really complete this content without being near cap item level in the first place so makes it kind of pointless. 7 months have passed since the last raid tier you'd think they would allow Savage gearing materials be available from this let alone unlock the tome Cap.

While the rewards are definitely a problem with Criterion, the chosen difficulty is the larger issue. We wanted dungeons that are harder than Expert, which really is easier than the MSQ dungeons (go figure). Having an echo option in would be a useful tool for the Devs to gauge if it's too hard. I'm not sold on the harsh death penalty for savage, I would prefer that they just hit harder and require more DPS to clear. Variant solo is also a pain as the bosses have too many hit points and take a long time to clear. Using them as a faster option to get a future relic would also generate more interest along with adding a roulette option.

TLDR: They made them too hard with too little reward for the effort expended and no easy option to get help besides using PF which is undesirable.

Another issue of dev view vs. player view.
Dev's think this way is the most fun, while in reality it rarely is.
And if content isn't successful: it's players fault, cause "players cannot find a common denominator".
Best example was Eureka. Kill monsters in chains for hours non-stop. For a single cluster drop. Great concept btw. /s

Part of the problem is that they are slow to change things during an expansion. FFXIV development feels a lot like a railroad: They build the railroad ahead of time and then people start riding the train down the rail road. If people don't like the trip they can't really build another railroad from the station to where the train currently is, move the train to the new track, and then continue, they can only keep building on that track and try to change it's course.

And at the same time they are doing this players are growing tired of FFXIV since after an expansion hits, it is all downhill until the next expansion. They basically bleed players all the way to the next launch and just have tiny bumps in activity with each patch, usually just for the content released and then players vanish. Content like savage and Eureka aren't meant to be "fun" as much as a way to keep some of the people playing during the downtime so they can justify the electricity needed to keep the servers running. It's a brutal reality with live services that in the end, money needs to flow or the service dies. They can't really rely on people just forgetting to unsubscribe, they need people to have at least some minor justification to keep subscribed. So we end up with a lot of padded out grind fests or difficulty walls.

FYI, this is also why the concerns of devs typically are about how fast people clear content, more than if it is fun to clear it in the time they anticipate. People just burning down savage in two weeks is not what the devs really want so they try to amp the difficulty up a notch, while still leaving enough wiggle room for the crazy people who are at the top percentage to clear during that time. However, difficulty walls are problematic because they are binary and require group play, where as grinds like Eureka and Bozja are just throwing bodies into a blender and completing small objectives each day. The latter is simply way more sustainable than the hardcore content. So functionally, they picked hardcore content to add to the game at the end of an expansion, when people are tired of playing and no one has any hook in them to get them into doing it, and likely are going to just walk away to other things.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Striker44

Actually, this was one of the biggest fears I had - that what people were seeking was bringing M+ to FFXIV. My opinion is that WoW's focus on M+ is one of the things that led me to leave that game, as I saw it lead to a focus on e-sports and the utterly, utterly toxic crowd that attracts. It felt here like we had the WoW exodus going and a push to turn FFXIV into the same thing I had chosen to leave behind. I've been beyond grateful that the FFXIV devs didn't give Criterion meaningful gear rewards, and stuck to the philosophy that it's meant to be high-level content, but for 4-person groups instead of 8-man raids. The "reward" comes from the satisfaction of working together to defeat difficult content.

Personally, I wouldn't call M+ a "gigantic success", either. It's far from the only cause, but I count it as a significant part of WoW's decline. It's popular - among the select portion of the original playerbase that remains, but it helped drive out far more people in the process. That's not a success...

---

The problem with Mythic+ is that it's on the same gear path as raiding. However, the alternative is having two gear paths for PvE content which would only segregate the PvE players while doubling the play time for people that want to do both. People lament the era of "raid or die"... but the PvE end game was miles better then. Thankfully XIV is still "raid or die" for it's gearing. If you actually present the alternative, you'll never get the genie back in the bottle.

Criterion dungeons are SE trying to fix what they broke in the first place, which are the normal dungeons.
They made the normal experience so bad that now they have to try and compensate with these arbitrary systems and are making them half baked.
It's funny and sad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Solakor

Criterion dungeons are SE trying to fix what they broke in the first place, which are the normal dungeons.
They made the normal experience so bad that now they have to try and compensate with these arbitrary systems and are making them half baked.
It's funny and sad.

---

I don't think that was what they were trying at all. What they were doing is trying to make content that required less testing that could fill the same role for post game grind content so that they can keep the lights on for the server. Unfortunately, savage and hard mode content are cheap to make compared to entire zones with unique encounters, hence why instead of building Eureka, they built island sanctuary and criterion. Island Sanctuary is completely non-combat based and forms the "adventure" kind of content, while the variant dungeons are the combat end and criterion + criterion savage are the current challenge mode content similar to how Bozja had the special fates that you could 1v1 a guy.

The problem they got right now is that people would rather just stop playing than complete the hardmode content they released and this isn't just applying to Criterion Savage. Standard Savage has no life left in it at all. People who are still trying to clear are basically zombies that are doing it because we have social obligations and sunk cost fallacy. The sooner it gets done the sooner it can be dropped and I'm pretty sure a lot of people can back me up on that one. It's discouraging to even say that, considering how much effort people put in to clearing it, but that's why I've been beating that horse for ages that they need to at least put in some kind of echo at this point because there isn't going to be anyone left.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

When I saw the rewards from Criterion/Criterion savage the moment they released this content, I instantly laughed and felt bad. They required you to run this sort of content with minimal deaths/no deaths for "Materia". Why bother with this when you can partake in a hunt train for x10times the reward and less time involved. Always felt like the team behind EW's patches do not understand the concept of meaningful rewards for time invested. 22minute encounter with multiple bosses/adds and all I get is weapon glamour though this is only worth it if the person has not done ultimate fights and isn't already using weapon glamour from that. True the item level is same as P12S savage though you can't really complete this content without being near cap item level in the first place so makes it kind of pointless. 7 months have passed since the last raid tier you'd think they would allow Savage gearing materials be available from this let alone unlock the tome Cap.

---

The most insulting thing about the weapons is that you need the P11S material to make it instead of the weapon being a straight drop. Relics are around the corner so the ilvl is useless. I'm not going back to the tier I cleared months ago to upgrade for a mediocre glow. Imagine if they made you use the weapon upgrade to make Ultimate weapons glow lol.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Colt47

I don't think that was what they were trying at all. What they were doing is trying to make content that required less testing that could fill the same role for post game grind content so that they can keep the lights on for the server. Unfortunately, savage and hard mode content are cheap to make compared to entire zones with unique encounters, hence why instead of building Eureka, they built island sanctuary and criterion. Island Sanctuary is completely non-combat based and forms the "adventure" kind of content, while the variant dungeons are the combat end and criterion + criterion savage are the current challenge mode content similar to how Bozja had the special fates that you could 1v1 a guy.

The problem they got right now is that people would rather just stop playing than complete the hardmode content they released and this isn't just applying to Criterion Savage. Standard Savage has no life left in it at all. People who are still trying to clear are basically zombies that are doing it because we have social obligations and sunk cost fallacy. The sooner it gets done the sooner it can be dropped and I'm pretty sure a lot of people can back me up on that one. It's discouraging to even say that, considering how much effort people put in to clearing it, but that's why I've been beating that horse for ages that they need to at least put in some kind of echo at this point because there isn't going to be anyone left.

---

But i don't understand why they made the normal content so braindead easy which in turn made you play less because its one and done content now rather than having some bite that kept things interesting.
Also they already had this concept of HARD mode dungeons that they could utilize. Like make it a weekly or daily. Make the mobs a bit harder and put some more of the usual mechanics in there and bam, job done.
Reward could be like you run it 4 times a week and you can then exchange the rewards for something endgame gear related etc.
Also maby utilizing the overworld more so they don't have to craft whole new zones?

In regards to IS, i dunno how they can ship something like this out when you can just buy stardew valley etc that does this and way better.
Why are the devs not playing to the games strenghts or are making things half baked? ff16? Graphics update? Who knows at this point but they can do better because they have done better in the past.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tsumdere

The most insulting thing about the weapons is that you need the P11S material to make it instead of the weapon being a straight drop. Relics are around the corner so the ilvl is useless. I'm not going back to the tier I cleared months ago to upgrade for a mediocre glow. Imagine if they made you use the weapon upgrade to make Ultimate weapons glow lol.

---

And then you got the casual crowd / "I thought I was mid-core but then the group schedule went to absolute crap" people who are anywhere from just clearing the tier now, to still getting p12s done, and given they struggle to get a group to actually play for two days for three hours, they definitely aren't doing savage criterion.

Then again, this is a weird tier because p10s at the start of the tier with only base gear was kind of... well we got the final boss and he's the second fight. It took some serious perseverance to keep going past that fight week after week at least until the gear got better. Then there is general burn out going on with the expansion near its close also draining people and it's a perfect storm to just have content die on a funeral pyre. Also, hard fights that are basically a DnD GM slapping 3 monster templates on ancient dragon so that it has only a narrow way of being defeated, and then forcing people to run through hoops of fire to kill said dragon, is sort of a tiresome industry standard with MMO end game that feels dated like a dinosaur. I highly doubt that is the only option for making end game last, let alone appeal to the largest possible pot of long haulers.

I don't think the issue was the rewards as much as it was SE forget who the audience for IS should be. Should it be the hardcore raiders who have mostly already dropped the game until DT release, or should it be the more casual-midcore players who are sticking around in the meantime?

Didn't think it'd be a hard one to figure out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by NekoMataMata

I don't think the issue was the rewards as much as it was SE forget who the audience for IS should be. Should it be the hardcore raiders who have mostly already dropped the game until DT release, or should it be the more casual-midcore players who are sticking around in the meantime?

Didn't think it'd be a hard one to figure out.

---

Plus just because non-hardcore players do hardcore content doesn't mean it is great content for that group of players, they just do it because it is the only thing to do. Most people hate savage for the most part since it doesn't give any kind of reward until someone clears a fight and clearing these fights is a leap and bounds effort above an EX trial. Savage content tends to generate a lot of bad experiences for anyone without a lot of extra time and interest to knock it out in a short period of time.

Also want to point that when people do clear the savages they never want to go back in to help others as well.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Also want to point that when people do clear the savages they never want to go back in to help others as well.

---

You can however do savages an expansion later with unsync party settings and get the glamours pretty easily. Whereas criterion dungeons will be (probably) forever synced and the rewards still suck. Waste of opportunity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maltothoris

Also want to point that when people do clear the savages they never want to go back in to help others as well.

---

This is partly the fault of the way the loot system works. Doesn't matter if it's early in the tier or a few months in the playerbase has been trained to not re-enter the fights after their weekly clear because they will be a detriment to the group's chance at getting loot. I'm sure there are players that don't mind but a lot of people are reluctant to give up on the *chance* for max chests. So once people are done with their gearing they still can't help others or go for practice without being a loss with their presence, even months after the raid tier is relevant.

Can’t the system just be programmed that everyone get one “roll” at loot per week, then after that if you go back in and you have 4 people that have rolled and 4 that haven’t the game just has 4 “sleeper rolls” that if a sleeper wins the loot just gets deleted, that way everyone has the same chance but you don’t punish others for going back in a second time to help them

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

Can’t the system just be programmed that everyone get one “roll” at loot per week, then after that if you go back in and you have 4 people that have rolled and 4 that haven’t the game just has 4 “sleeper rolls” that if a sleeper wins the loot just gets deleted, that way everyone has the same chance but you don’t punish others for going back in a second time to help them

---

This would be ideal, imo! The 24 man loot system works this way. You get a token for completing and you can roll on a piece of loot and once you win something you can't roll on anything else. Granted this would limit people to 1 piece of gear per savage floor per week [plus a book] but if you don't have BiS priority in a static then you'd be taking that chance on weekly rolls anyways. It could even mean you could be guaranteed to nab yourself 1 bit of loot a week if you're willing to keep clearing it.

I think I need to clarify. I meant for the criterion savages. Because this is all the loot you get from them https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/w...ihn_Manuscript https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/w...kon_Manuscript https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/w...alo_Manuscript
Aloalo is the only one that's different with the esters that you get from it but the others really don't offer much for people to redo them.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Maltothoris

I think I need to clarify. I meant for the criterion savages. Because this is all the loot you get from them https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/w...ihn_Manuscript https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/w...kon_Manuscript https://ffxiv.consolegameswiki.com/w...alo_Manuscript
Aloalo is the only one that's different with the esters that you get from it but the others really don't offer much for people to redo them.

---

Oh agreed! Even compared to regular savage Criterion savage is even worse at encouraging re-clears. I only meant to bring it round to savage raiding as a whole because it feels like the Criterion issues are a micro reflection of the attitude to reclearing savage raiding as a whole - no reward or impacting other people's rewards [or chance at rewards] The fact that the only reward from Aloalo also requires clearing regular savage just makes everything so much worse x_x

The real problem with savage criterion is that it's a 1:1 version of the extreme with worse rewards.

I keep saying this but if you put the achievement behind a timer on extreme that requires your group to complete the dungeon within a set amount of time, tight enough to make the KO debuff matters, you would have the exact same result.
Except it would be much more enjoyable, people would theorycraft to speedrun the extreme and reach that specific timer while still getting rewards for their attempts.

The savage is just there to make you waste your time, it's not harder, it's just longer. And I hope they adress this issue, either by cutting savage and making it a timer related achievement or making savage actually different with res still available.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Oizen

Kinda what happens when the developers ignore all feedback on a half baked feature 2 times in a row, then half ass trying to fix the problem 2 years into the expansion's lifespan

---

If this was true people wouldn't be crying day and night that they don't have a field op this expansion. This is the 1st iteration of new content that people cry about so much it makes me want to vomit. I am sure they will cater to your needs if you give them time to adjust it so you can stop crying.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reap00

If this was true people wouldn't be crying day and night that they don't have a field op this expansion. This is the 1st iteration of new content that people cry about so much it makes me want to vomit. I am sure they will cater to your needs if you give them time to adjust it so you can stop crying.

---

It shouldn’t take an entire nother expansion for them to respond to simple feedback like “there is no rewards” and “this content has no replayability”

Square’s absolute snails pace to implement any changes is the whole reason we are still suffering from things like HW PLD absolutely decimating modern job design

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It shouldn’t take an entire nother expansion for them to respond to simple feedback like “there is no rewards” and “this content has no replayability”

Square’s absolute snails pace to implement any changes is the whole reason we are still suffering from things like HW PLD absolutely decimating modern job design

---

Who are you to determine how long it takes to adjust to player feedback? You know nothing of the development process.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Supersnow845

It shouldn’t take an entire nother expansion for them to respond to simple feedback like “there is no rewards” and “this content has no replayability”

Square’s absolute snails pace to implement any changes is the whole reason we are still suffering from things like HW PLD absolutely decimating modern job design

---

Because such a thing as "development pipelines" exists, and its far-reaching for MMO. They very rarely have resources to suddenly begin readjusting and remaking and adding new things to content already set to release in few months when they've been working on it since before expansion even came out, and are currently simultaneously working a few patches ahead AND on what will be the next expansion already. On average, it DOES take a whole expansion's time to adjust without having a massive workforce, and I know 'small indie company' is a meme, but FF14's development team is pretty average in size.

well square has always had the attitude that they know what their fans want more than them, the problem is that yet another form of tedious over tuned content drops with no reward that plays in to character progression, they think we will break ourselves fighting a hampster for weeks just to get an ugly mount i can just buy off the market instead, i want to earn gear, i want ilvl, i want a weapon, not a new sticker for my profile picture i haven't touched in over a year.

they make this game to forget, play it once and come back later, but some of us are begging to to actually let us play it like a mmorpg, and it falls on deaf ears.

Speaking for me and my own friends.

We didn't need/want more savage-level difficulty content. Before the first dungeons arrived, we were expecting something like Casual->Extreme Trial tier->Savage tier for Variant->Criterion->Criterion Savage, and we'd focus on normal Criterion.

Variant is really boring and Criterion is too much commitment.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reap00

If this was true people wouldn't be crying day and night that they don't have a field op this expansion. This is the 1st iteration of new content that people cry about so much it makes me want to vomit. I am sure they will cater to your needs if you give them time to adjust it so you can stop crying.

---

Another Sildhn Subterrane came out almost an entire year before Mount Rokkon, and between the two there were no adjustments.
Rokkon was basically set up to fail from the start. Everyone knew it would, and its PF scene died off in a matter of days.
Which is sad because its my favorite of the 3 Criterions, with the best pacing and job design and most interesting add phases of the 3.
Its sad to me because this is content I've actually cleared, both normal and savage, and enjoyed quite a bit. Yet there's barely even a pf scene for it due to their neglect of player feedback.

Not sure why you're so upset over this, or why you're playing damage control for Square Enix. Everything here happened, Criterion failed as a result. No excuses made by you on the developer's part is going to change that.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Reap00

Who are you to determine how long it takes to adjust to player feedback? You know nothing of the development process.

---

Is this relevant? Does anyone need to know how the internal workings of Square Enix to give this kind of feedback?

I get you're very emotional about this, but at the end of the day they released a feature that failed to be engaging to the larger community. Ignored that feedback for an entire expansion, and now we're on the other side of it looking back at why it failed. It'll be cool if Dawntrail fixes this for future Criterions, and I truly hope it does. But the original 3 Criterions are likely just going to sit in limbo as abandoned content, and I find that sad.

I am curious if you've even attempted this content yourself, you seem very defensive of it and I'm trying to understand why.
I'm sitting here with my Epic Hero title, and millions of farmed gil from this content and I've been pretty satisfied with it, but even I can admit it had a very rocky launch and the devs could have done way better for it.

It would indeed be a shame that these 3 fights go off on the wayside. There is just something satisfying in doing moko's iaijutsu moves correctly or even doing goro's towers correctly.