Healer kit adjustment idea, 40% dps to 60% heals/utility

Frankly as a Scholar (on console/controller) I can’t think of any expansion where I literally had too many skills. Personally I find it really strange that people still complain about button bloat currently; I can’t think of any job during any expansion where I was like ‘woah I have too many abilities and can’t put them all on the hotbar at once!’.
And that’s including binding fairy abilities and commands to the normal hotbars because I found using the pet hotbar really clunky, especially back when manual Embrace existed. Well, mashing the button and praying she’d listen to you existed, since apparently the fairy knew better who needs healed first lol

Truthfully the idea of culling abilities to give us even more space than what we have now terrifies me. Everything will go until every job is just the same abilities with different visual effects (which isn’t far from what we have now really…), because I mean technically every button that’s not high potency direct damage is ‘bloat’ relative to absolute optimisation.

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Originally Posted by Connor

Frankly as a Scholar (on console/controller) I can’t think of any expansion where I literally had too many skills. Personally I find it really strange that people still complain about button bloat currently; I can’t think of any job during any expansion where I was like ‘woah I have too many abilities and can’t put them all on the hotbar at once!’.
And that’s including binding fairy abilities and commands to the normal hotbars because I found using the pet hotbar really clunky, especially back when manual Embrace existed. Well, mashing the button and praying she’d listen to you existed, since apparently the fairy knew better who needs healed first lol

Truthfully the idea of culling abilities to give us even more space than what we have now terrifies me. Everything will go until every job is just the same abilities with different visual effects (which isn’t far from what we have now really…), because I mean technically every button that’s not high potency direct damage is ‘bloat’ relative to absolute optimisation.

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The space is for unique buttons to take the space, it's not culling for no reason. It's culling because we have too many options that answer the same thing when we don't even answer that problem often. Why would you cull buttons and not provide something to take its place...that's a big yikes from me. lel Although I certainly can see Square totally doing that.

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Originally Posted by Katish

The space is for unique buttons to take the space, it's not culling for no reason. It's culling because we have too many options that answer the same thing when we don't even answer that problem often. Why would you cull buttons and not provide something to take its place...that's a big yikes from me. lel Although I certainly can see Square totally doing that.

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It's a reasonable fear to have, SE has a track record of culling things without anything to replace it. SAM had Kaiten culled, replaced with nothing. ShB launch SCH had Energy Drain culled, replaced with nothing. BRD had song buffs culled when DNC was released, replaced with nothing, etc etc.

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Originally Posted by Katish

The space is for unique buttons to take the space, it's not culling for no reason. It's culling because we have too many options that answer the same thing when we don't even answer that problem often. Why would you cull buttons and not provide something to take its place...that's a big yikes from me. lel Although I certainly can see Square totally doing that.

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Can’t press the wrong button if there’s only 1 button *guy pointing at head meme*

And yes I definitely would not put it past SE to cull various abilities because ‘bloat’ then do absolutely nothing to replace them besides slapping the lost potency on a pre-existing ability.

Hell I wouldn’t be surprised if come the next expansion (Assuming there even is one after Dawntrail) every jobs toolkit ends up literally looking the way the PvP ones currently do

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Originally Posted by Aravell

It's a reasonable fear to have, SE has a track record of culling things without anything to replace it. SAM had Kaiten culled, replaced with nothing. ShB launch SCH had Energy Drain culled, replaced with nothing. BRD had song buffs culled when DNC was released, replaced with nothing, etc etc.

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Aye, those are grievances of their job design...we need a new team lel.

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Can’t press the wrong button if there’s only 1 button *guy pointing at head meme*

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Certainly can, but I am not saying to cull them all, if you can't press one of three buttons that do the same thing, I think at that point it's a you thing (not you directly, sorry thought I needed to clarify). xD [Which is really one of six when playing with another healer]
I am also all for letting people be bad...even if they don't know their tools at lvl 90. (Eventually they will get better, they will learn, unless they are intentionally throwing for content ... then that's a whole different can of worms.)

"Up until this point, what you say is very similar to what I suggest all the time...I know, after this point it diverges, but it makes me wonder if the gulf is not more narrow than if often seems in terms of potential compromises..."

This doesn't even make any sense quoted out of context. I really wouldn't know based upon this.

"The crazy thing is, healers have 4-6 damage buttons NOW. We just don't use them well." No, they are aren't well designed. There's a big difference.

Healers in FF14 remind me of a scene from the second Kill Bill film. A bouncer arrives late to work, and his boss chastises him for it. The bouncer looks around the empty club and says something along the lines of, "I don't see how this is a problem, there's nobody here to bounce." And his boss responds, "Are you saying that the reason you weren't doing your job is because there's no job for you to do? You make a very good point."

And that's really how I feel about healers.

Adding more DPS to healers doesn't make me want to go back to healing; it makes me want to play a healer even less. When I want to DPS, I play a DPS class. I play healers because I want to heal.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Adding more DPS to healers doesn't make me want to go back to healing; it makes me want to play a healer even less. When I want to DPS, I play a DPS class. I play healers because I want to heal.

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So do you do Extreme, Savage or even Ultimates as a healer to get that then?

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Adding more DPS to healers doesn't make me want to go back to healing; it makes me want to play a healer even less. When I want to DPS, I play a DPS class. I play healers because I want to heal.

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I do totally understand that mindset, and frankly I do want to agree. What’s the point of a healing role if all it does is dps and pop some healing cooldowns?

At the same time though there’s also an element of having to temper your expectations. It’s practically impossible for the devs to ever create a situation where healers literally cannot / will not aim to maximise dps output and reduce the amount of heals used to the absolute minimum. Even if they lowered healer dps to deal like, 1 damage, the game would still revolve around minimising healing output as much as possible and maximising the amount of 1’s you deal to the enemy.

Even in my fever dream fantasy where healers are buffers that spend all their gcds buff-botting, the gameplay would ultimately just devolve into ‘minimise the amount of buffs used on allies to however little it can possibly go’ and ‘maximise the amount of personal damage output’.

I personally think it really sucks, but it’s simply the way the game is designed, and unfortunately that will not ever change. Whilst they can do things like increase healing requirements somewhat, it’s never going to be possible for them to make ffxiv’s healers be about ‘just healing’. It will always be ‘healing through cooldowns whilst dealing damage’. Which is ultimately also why so many healer feedback threads go so hard about dps; it’s not that every healer is a dps pretending to be green, it’s that the game’s design forces dps into being the only thing that ever really makes a difference. And so most people reasonably conclude, ‘if that’s going to be the only thing you let us do at least make it fun’ lol

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Healers in FF14 remind me of a scene from the second Kill Bill film. A bouncer arrives late to work, and his boss chastises him for it. The bouncer looks around the empty club and says something along the lines of, "I don't see how this is a problem, there's nobody here to bounce." And his boss responds, "Are you saying that the reason you weren't doing your job is because there's no job for you to do? You make a very good point."

And that's really how I feel about healers.

Adding more DPS to healers doesn't make me want to go back to healing; it makes me want to play a healer even less. When I want to DPS, I play a DPS class. I play healers because I want to heal.

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We could just, ya know… have both?

It just continues to make a negative amount of sense why healer has to be the role that is regularly subjected to the “you want to DPS? Then play a DPS!” Fallacy when tanks aren’t constantly badgered by the same argument. can we switch that for at least one expansion please? Just give me one expansion where healers get to have lots of DPS tools and tanks get “I play tank because I want to tank!” Anti-DPS players constantly getting in the way of tank players who want their DPS returned and making them cry until 4:30 am in front of the bathroom mirror eating chocolate chips out of the bag because there’s nothing else sweet to eat in the house.

To me it doesn't matter whether it's 10/90 or 50/50 split. Design both sides to be more interesting, cohesive, or/and engaging to play with. Then I'm sold.

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Originally Posted by Nizzi

So do you do Extreme, Savage or even Ultimates as a healer to get that then?

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I would if all that Extremes/Savages added to the mix was bigger heal requirements, but unfortunately I can't get that without also fielding many other requirements that are alienating to me.

Heavensward really hit the sweet spot for me where healers had a meaningful job outside of EX/Savage.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Healers in FF14 remind me of a scene from the second Kill Bill film. A bouncer arrives late to work, and his boss chastises him for it. The bouncer looks around the empty club and says something along the lines of, "I don't see how this is a problem, there's nobody here to bounce." And his boss responds, "Are you saying that the reason you weren't doing your job is because there's no job for you to do? You make a very good point."

And that's really how I feel about healers.

Adding more DPS to healers doesn't make me want to go back to healing; it makes me want to play a healer even less. When I want to DPS, I play a DPS class. I play healers because I want to heal.

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First of all, I think your analogy could be improved a bit. In your analogy, the boss has made two valid points- the first is that bouncer should have been there on time - right now, we aren't discussing whether the healer should be included. Regarding whether the bouncer is needed at all- fair enough, I see how you want to apply this to how you feel about healers.

Now we get to the "how do you feel about healing". I don't know how you feel about clicking 1 button to DPS. I know that if no one needs healing, I don't want to just stand there, and clicking one button (since I just have a dot) and having an occasional card flip could be improved upon.

That doesn't "make me a DPS" in my mind, as someone who had a DPS main for many years there's a distinct difference in how that feels. As a healer or a support (I've enjoyed both) the enjoyable part is being able to balance both DPS and healing, and where it was fun was when I had a balanced selection of skills for both. That's not the case presently for healers in FFXIV.

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Originally Posted by Connor

I do totally understand that mindset, and frankly I do want to agree. What’s the point of a healing role if all it does is dps and pop some healing cooldowns?

At the same time though there’s also an element of having to temper your expectations. It’s practically impossible for the devs to ever create a situation where healers literally cannot / will not aim to maximise dps output and reduce the amount of heals used to the absolute minimum. Even if they lowered healer dps to deal like, 1 damage, the game would still revolve around minimising healing output as much as possible and maximising the amount of 1’s you deal to the enemy.

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With respect, I think this misdiagnoses the problem. I think it's perfectly fine if some players want to min-max their DPS as a healer; I'm in no way opposed to that, more power to them. The issue is simply that there's not enough damage hitting the party. In normal content boss fights, it feels like my time as a healer is spent 25% healing and 75% DPSing. That's not an issue with min-maxing (especially since I'm not min-maxing), that's an issue of there not being enough of a job to do. As a non-min-maxy player, I want 80-95% of my time to be spent healing. If the min-maxers can shave some of that off to deal even more damage, I think that's cool. But they should be doing more damage because they're just that damn good at healing, not because the healing requirements are on the floor.

I know this is possible to achieve because it's what I experienced in Heavensward. My hope is that we can closer to that again.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

First of all, I think your analogy could be improved a bit. In your analogy, the boss has made two valid points- the first is that bouncer should have been there on time - right now, we aren't discussing whether the healer should be included. Regarding whether the bouncer is needed at all- fair enough, I see how you want to apply this to how you feel about healers.

Now we get to the "how do you feel about healing". I don't know how you feel about clicking 1 button to DPS. I know that if no one needs healing, I don't want to just stand there, and clicking one button (since I just have a dot) and having an occasional card flip could be improved upon.

That doesn't "make me a DPS" in my mind, as someone who had a DPS main for many years there's a distinct difference in how that feels. As a healer or a support (I've enjoyed both) the enjoyable part is being able to balance both DPS and healing, and where it was fun was when I had a balanced selection of skills for both. That's not the case presently for healers in FFXIV.

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Haha, that's fair, it's not a perfect analogy. It just really vibes with me.

I don't mind doing mild DPS, I just don't want to feel like the majority of my time as a healer is spent DPSing. If I'm DPSing as a healer, it should be because I'm so good at healing that I've carved out some extra time for myself; every time I cast Glare it should feel like I'm getting away with something. That's not how it feels right now; my Glares are not evidence of skill, they are simply what I'm doing most of the time. Give me healing to do 80-95% of the time and I'll be happy pressing Glare for the rest of it. (although if I'm honest, I really miss Stone IV)

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

We could just, ya know… have both?

It just continues to make a negative amount of sense why healer has to be the role that is regularly subjected to the “you want to DPS? Then play a DPS!” Fallacy when tanks aren’t constantly badgered by the same argument. can we switch that for at least one expansion please? Just give me one expansion where healers get to have lots of DPS tools and tanks get “I play tank because I want to tank!” Anti-DPS players constantly getting in the way of tank players who want their DPS returned and making them cry until 4:30 am in front of the bathroom mirror eating chocolate chips out of the bag because there’s nothing else sweet to eat in the house.

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I think there's room for both, in that if there are a few healer classes that spend more of their time doing DPS, I think that's fine. So if you personally want to be a healer that spends more time DPSing, I would like there to be one or more classes where you can get that experience. But what I want as a healer is to focus 80-95% of my time on healing, so I hope there's a class where I can get that experience as well. Because healer is the only class that provides the experience of triage gameplay, so when that's what I'm after, I don't want to get "not enough" of it.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

I think there's room for both, in that if there are a few healer classes that spend more of their time doing DPS, I think that's fine. So if you personally want to be a healer that spends more time DPSing, I would like there to be one or more classes where you can get that experience. But what I want as a healer is to focus 80-95% of my time on healing, so I hope there's a class where I can get that experience as well. Because healer is the only class that provides the experience of triage gameplay, so when that's what I'm after, I don't want to get "not enough" of it.

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That's not something class design can give you. The only way to achieve that is to redesign how all of combat functions to have constant outgoing damage, probably with greatly reduced AoE healing potential to force healers to spot heal through single targeting predominately, which would in turn require a rework to every major fight to accommodate a much slower pace of outgoing damage.

Quite frankly, FFXIV is not that game, and it has never been that game.

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

Quite frankly, FFXIV is not that game, and it has never been that game.

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If my terminology is leading us to envision different games, I'll simply clarify by saying that I liked what healing looked like in non-Savage/EX content back in Heavensward, and that's the vibe of what I'd like to see again.

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

If my terminology is leading us to envision different games, I'll simply clarify by saying that I liked what healing looked like in non-Savage/EX content back in Heavensward, and that's the vibe of what I'd like to see again.

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In order to accomplish that, you'd want to prune a fair amount of self-sustain off the tanks as well as cut each healer's free healing resource pool significantly (OGCDs primarily). You don't heal because every healer has an answer to nearly any instance of incoming damage that does nothing to make them stop attacking. Make GCD healing more interesting, but you'd also want a much smaller selection of heals to compliment the relatively slow outgoing damage provided by most content, while those tools still have the flexibility to handle healing mechanics in more recent harder fights.

The problem with adding more healing is that, since we aren't adding more damage, the new healing resources are forced to share the same uptime that older healing resources had, which isn't a lot. And once we reach that point where we've stiped away the excess healing and reworked each healer's healing tools to have more interactivity and are capable of complimenting both the easier content and the harder content, we will eventually be forced to ask the question of, "What now?" When the next expansion rolls around, what do you add? If you add more healing again, you'll just end up back in the current situation unless you increasing outgoing damage frequency accordingly, which is very unlikely to occur. So what do you add at that point?

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

In order to accomplish that, you'd want to prune a fair amount of self-sustain off the tanks as well as cut each healer's free healing resource pool significantly (OGCDs primarily). You don't heal because every healer has an answer to nearly any instance of incoming damage that does nothing to make them stop attacking. Make GCD healing more interesting, but you'd also want a much smaller selection of heals to compliment the relatively slow outgoing damage provided by most content, while those tools still have the flexibility to handle healing mechanics in more recent harder fights.

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There are numerous ways to go about it, but I think this is among the good ones! ^^

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Originally Posted by ty_taurus

The problem with adding more healing is that, since we aren't adding more damage, the new healing resources are forced to share the same uptime that older healing resources had, which isn't a lot. And once we reach that point where we've stiped away the excess healing and reworked each healer's healing tools to have more interactivity and are capable of complimenting both the easier content and the harder content, we will eventually be forced to ask the question of, "What now?" When the next expansion rolls around, what do you add? If you add more healing again, you'll just end up back in the current situation unless you increasing outgoing damage frequency accordingly, which is very unlikely to occur. So what do you add at that point?

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If I understand you properly, you're saying that there's an issue where with each new expansion, there's an expectation that there be additions to each healer's kit. And if those new spells are being used, that necessarily means that other spells are being used less, because they all cost uptime which is a limited resource. Hopefully I'm hearing you correctly.

While this is indeed a facet of design that's worthy of consideration, I don't see it as a particularly challenging one, and there are a variety of ways to go about it. If I'm indeed understanding you correctly, it makes me think that perhaps you are thinking that in "trimming excess healing abilities" we will arrive at some sort of perfect equilibrium state that any change would disrupt? But I in no way think that's the case. For example, let's say you end up in this equilibrium where "healing feels good". In that equilibrium state, WHM didn't have Asylum, but the new expansion comes out and now WHM has Asylum as a cooldown GCD. What do you do? It feels pretty simple to me:

• Asylum adds an amount of group healing per minute equal to A.
• Asylum replaces another GCD, so let's say one less cast of Medica 2 per minute, meaning that there's M less group healing per minute.
• So the new amount of healing per minute is whatever the old value was plus A minus M, meaning there has been an increase in group healing equal to A minus M.
• So to maintain equilibrium, you increase incoming damage to the party by that same amount. There we go, equilibrium has been maintained.

It's also worth noting that you don't even need to get rid of abilities to do this; you just need to calculate the healing that healers are capable of outputting per minute and balance the incoming damage to it (with some wiggle room, of course, so that players can survive without being perfect). And you can balance it either by raising incoming damage, lowering healing potencies, or a mix of the two.

(Hopefully I did understand what you were getting at, but let me know if that's not what you were saying)

It doesn't really matter, in the sense that I wouldn't want to be in a game where I would consistently spend 95% of my time healing. I have no issue whatsoever when a specific party needs that, but not if all encounters and the job design do so.

That was part of FFXIV's appeal, as well as other games where I had a healer- I had specific encounters that I had intense periods to heal through however I also had the flexibility to contribute in other ways. I wasn't locked into "push the health bars to the right".

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

With respect, I think this misdiagnoses the problem. I think it's perfectly fine if some players want to min-max their DPS as a healer; I'm in no way opposed to that, more power to them. The issue is simply that there's not enough damage hitting the party. In normal content boss fights, it feels like my time as a healer is spent 25% healing and 75% DPSing. That's not an issue with min-maxing (especially since I'm not min-maxing), that's an issue of there not being enough of a job to do. As a non-min-maxy player, I want 80-95% of my time to be spent healing. If the min-maxers can shave some of that off to deal even more damage, I think that's cool. But they should be doing more damage because they're just that damn good at healing, not because the healing requirements are on the floor.

I know this is possible to achieve because it's what I experienced in Heavensward. My hope is that we can closer to that again.

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The point I’m making though is that they simply cannot do ‘80-95%’ healing because of the way the game is designed. They’d have to completely rework the entire battle system from the ground up to be more focused on triage and survival than timed burst heals. That’s why people ‘min-max’ dps in the first place - the game simply is not designed for healing to be a full-time job. If it was, then you’d just end up running into the ‘Won’t somebody please think of the newbies?!’ thing all the time.

Healing by definition can only ever be a limited requirement. That is to say, there’s always going to be a point where you’re ‘done’ healing’. There isn’t a point where you’re ‘done’ needing damage, unless the boss is dead, in which case nobody needs anything anymore lol. It’s because FFXIV is designed in this way that they simply cannot have ‘80-95%’ of a healer’s time spent on healing, because they’d have to make healing requirements astronomically high to make us heal that much.

I levelled Astrologian in Heavensward first and I can’t think of any times where I had to spend literally ‘80-95%’ of the time on healing. I mean, you simply couldn’t spend that much time healing because of Cleric Stance sectioning off your healing/dps. Even on initial release when they majorly under-tuned it’s healing it didn’t really bother me much (not that I wasn’t thankful when they buffed everything lol) And that’s from the experience of a casual player - I’ve never been much of a min-maxer and barely do raids. But even still, in raids and stuff you needed to be healing even less than normal, otherwise you’d hit enrages (which I do remember being particularly tight at the same time).

Really it wasn’t particularly higher or lower than what we have now, we just didn’t have so many oGCDs and the mechanics weren’t specifically designed to be answered by them in the way they are (i.e Lilybell / Panhaima / Seraph / Macrocosmos having Harrowing Hell and Styx exist just for them). But then, we did still have things like Assize, Benediction, Indomitability and Emergency Tactics, so it’s not like you were GCD healing all the time.

I agree that we had a much better ratio of GCD/oGCD Healing back then, but even that early in the game it was still at least 50/50 between damage and healing. Again it’s simply an unfortunate part of game design that’s kind of become intrinsic rather than intentional. And I don’t think it’s great either; personally I’d love to be healing more than 80% of the time. But at the same time, sometimes you have to accept that things simply are what they are.

I have had recent ish experience of '85-90% of my time is spent on healing', in another game. It is not fun. It is VERY stressful. I was able to keep up with the requirements (barely) but I would never expect that to be the 'regular gameplay' of the role. It is one of the biggest examples of 'you think you do but you don't' that I have ever had to go through. I'd say 'screw it, lets try it so people can realise how much they 'think they want it but they don't'', but the issue with that is that the role would be dead, actually in the grave, within a month. You think Abyssos did damage to the role's population, this would bury it, and the emergency backpedal that would come might not even get enough people to come back

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

If my terminology is leading us to envision different games, I'll simply clarify by saying that I liked what healing looked like in non-Savage/EX content back in Heavensward, and that's the vibe of what I'd like to see again.

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Same, but that would also mean having back the other side of HW: the damage kits. Returning to HW's healing kits and fight healing requirements, without changing the damage kits, would be exceptionally hollow gameplay even by today's standards

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

As a non-min-maxy player, I want 80-95% of my time to be spent healing.

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I'm curious: How would you answer these questions that I posed previously?

Because it's worth noting that if you're spending 19 out of 20 GCDs (95%) on healing that's required by mechanics, that leaves you a mere 1 out of 20 GCDs to help the party recover from mistakes -- which means the entire party has to play to a certain degree of perfection.

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Originally Posted by IDontPetLalas

It doesn't really matter, in the sense that I wouldn't want to be in a game where I would consistently spend 95% of my time healing. I have no issue whatsoever when a specific party needs that, but not if all encounters and the job design do so.

That was part of FFXIV's appeal, as well as other games where I had a healer- I had specific encounters that I had intense periods to heal through however I also had the flexibility to contribute in other ways. I wasn't locked into "push the health bars to the right".

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Thank you for sharing this perspective with me; I was genuinely unaware that players like this existed! So I was not taking players like you into consideration with my ideas, which is a huge flaw! You're valid, and even though I want to heal more than you do, I want us both to have good experiences. This is something I'll have to think on, but again, thank you for simply sharing a perspective that I hadn't realized was there!

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Thank you for sharing this perspective with me; I was genuinely unaware that players like this existed! So I was not taking players like you into consideration with my ideas, which is a huge flaw! You're valid, and even though I want to heal more than you do, I want us both to have good experiences. This is something I'll have to think on, but again, thank you for simply sharing a perspective that I hadn't realized was there!

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Well - and I mean this quite genuinely- I am honestly rather surprised, unless you're new to healing and/or MMOs. it isn't a new direction, there's quite a variety both in the types of people that are attracted to the role and to the job direction over an number of games over, let's say- the past 20 plus years.

I won't dispute at all that some people just want to heal, and they may find their niche in some games, or even some content in a specific game. In other games it's perfectly normal for healers to spec into DPS, heal, or a hybrid and people will then go and do the content that they want to do.

You could keep complaining, but basically Yoshi-P made healers unfit to dps as before, so that healers who didn't want to dps would be annoyed by those who wanted to oblige them. All that's left is to try and convince Yoshi-P otherwise. And it's been a few extensions already.
He only put in the minimum so that Main healers could do their MSQ.

i would rather 10% dps and 90% heal , so a team need a healer to stay live and a healer need a team to killer shit for them. but since they made tanks independent , turn all the healer in to mages with more dps and tell all the tank to heal themselves. i given up on healers because there not the healer i wanted it to be. there a complete mess. there nothing more then a raising class. because players get 1 shot and tank healing themselves

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Originally Posted by LilimoLimomo

Thank you for sharing this perspective with me; I was genuinely unaware that players like this existed! So I was not taking players like you into consideration with my ideas, which is a huge flaw! You're valid, and even though I want to heal more than you do, I want us both to have good experiences. This is something I'll have to think on, but again, thank you for simply sharing a perspective that I hadn't realized was there!

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FFXIV, even during the ARR and HW days, left room for healers to be offensive as they saw fit. Things were more volatile back then. MP management was more cutthroat, enemies could crit, tanks had significantly less survivability, Cleric Stance was a thing, etc. DPS felt more optional, yet rewarding to master. That was what FFXIV healing was built on, whether intentional or not. It just took the community time to fully realize that. That is the type of healing style that this game has always subtly promoted.

That said, I do see value in trying to create a playstyle for the healers that want something more like traditional WoW, at least tangentially. The thing is, every healer needs to still provide a competitive amount of personal damage, or the healer that doesn't will be ostracized over the balance concerns. What I have talked about in the past, is creating an engine-building healer out of Astrologian who, in a group setting, focuses on setting up healing and support skills with their GCD while passively generating personal DPS that you either trigger later when you attack with Malefic, or a party member triggers for you with their own attacks, so that you don't have to attack. You'd spend your GCDs setting up your library of actions to utilize later. I've seen that making the cards GCD is not the route others would like, so I've bounced ideas around in my head about other ways to go about it. But I think that core concept of a healer who spends their GCDs building their heals and support tools to use later while passively generating DPS is what a player like you might be able to enjoy in FFXIV's hyper offensive environment.

I see people wanting 80%+ healing in content and I have to ask... do you want it in all content? Because if your healing the same amount in a 4 party dungeon as Ultimate then I can already see issues. The need for high healing percentage also increases the personal responsibility which tends to push people away from a role, just look at tanks.

I would also like to note that having more healing doesn't mean you will be making healing engaging content. Swapping Glare with Cure ends up doing the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Niroken

I see people wanting 80%+ healing in content and I have to ask... do you want it in all content? Because if your healing the same amount in a 4 party dungeon as Ultimate then I can already see issues. The need for high healing percentage also increases the personal responsibility which tends to push people away from a role, just look at tanks.

I would also like to note that having more healing doesn't mean you will be making healing engaging content. Swapping Glare with Cure ends up doing the same thing.

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Though with your middle point tanks do the healers job for them and healers are still rarer

If there's one thing this thread shows clearly, it's that the people who want a more interesting damage kit and the people who want more healing to be done are both greatly unsatisfied. Who is the modern healer even designed for anyway?

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Originally Posted by Aravell

If there's one thing this thread shows clearly, it's that the people who want a more interesting damage kit and the people who want more healing to be done are both greatly unsatisfied. Who is the modern healer even designed for anyway?

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The question is pretty tautological, so I would just say "The people who still play healer."

I think in Squares eyes, it's designed for players who don't want to be stressed out with high healing requirements and who "don't want to be compelled to do damage". What they don't realise is that because they made the healing requirements so lax (to relieve stress), and the fact that dealing damage is so simple to do, they ended up compelling damage in the process, there's legitimately no excuse not to without being accused of being AFK.

And because people were so used to the lower requirements, when Abyssos came out, those people who played it for the lack of stress up and left, healing was now too much for them. People who stuck around and knew how the jobs worked were able to keep up and were back to spamming Glaroilificosis in no time, only now it had the occasional use of a Medica II or Succor. This still didn't fix the fact that Glaroilificosis was still around 80+% button usage anyway.

So in the end, despite Squares intentions, it ended up designed for a small minority of healers. New players get their fix for a while, but eventually become veterans who realise how little they actually contribute to the group outside the occasional raidwide or tankbuster, and then spend most of their time pressing 1 button for 80+% of any given fight. This then leaves them bored and going to another role or leaving entirely. Rinse and repeat for new healers that don't know what they missed out on in earlier expansions. About the only reason I can see why someone would like this role is if they just want to watch something on a second monitor, or they're the kind of person that takes a long time to realise that oGCDs aren't emergency buttons at level 90 even after everyone around them tells them to never hold them. Effectively, people who are too stubborn to improve, or too ignorant to improve.

At most, it may appeal to extremely unskilled players who can't do more than 50% GCD uptime or struggle to find the right heal in time. But the cure for that is practice, not dumbing down.

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Originally Posted by Ayche

The question is pretty tautological, so I would just say "The people who still play healer."

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I mean the game forces healers to do literally any content

How common would healers be if you weren’t forced to always have 1/4 of your party be a healer

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Originally Posted by TheDustyOne

[...]At most, it may appeal to extremely unskilled players who can't do more than 50% GCD uptime or struggle to find the right heal in time. But the cure for that is practice, not dumbing down.

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We all know this is heresy.

/s

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I mean the game forces healers to do literally any content

How common would healers be if you weren’t forced to always have 1/4 of your party be a healer

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Well yes, FFXIV is working under the confines of being a game where the gameplay is that of FFXIV.
This is not an attempt to be snide. Enough digital ink has been spilled enough on the forums, I know how deep this discussion goes.
But the counterfactual at the heart of that question requires far too much alternative reality thinking that it also goes nowhere. I cannot tell you if FFXIV would had had more or less players playing it if it had always been a Monster Hunter style game, or just Guild Wars 2, or Vermintide, or if it had played like Destiny 2. Overwatch could be said to be an "role based squad game" in some similar vein, and there the popularity of supports versus tanks and dps jumps up and down from season to season, usually a powerful new healer gets people playing more healers. Sometimes tanks are the most unpopular role. Responsibility is the biggest poison for voluntarism.

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Originally Posted by Rein_eon_Osborne

We all know this is heresy.

/s

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Thou shalt not DPS as healer, for it is an abomination to the Holy Trinity.

Praise be to Sylphie.

I really enjoy dps as healer. I really do. I want more dps skills to be honest but, some healers now scare me. No focus, little to no gcd use and will literally wipe a party if they don’t have any ogcds available to heal with.

I’d hate to see some healers with even more dps skills than we have now. My heart flutters just thinking about the many wipes. I’ll probably even dream about it tonight.

But like my good debater Ty says. Every healer shouldn’t be punished for the small amount of bad ones we have.

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Originally Posted by SweetPete

I really enjoy dps as healer. I really do. I want more dps skills to be honest but, some healers now scare me. No focus, little to no gcd use and will literally wipe a party if they don’t have any ogcds available to heal with.

I’d hate to see some healers with even more dps skills than we have now. My heart flutters just thinking about the many wipes. I’ll probably even dream about it tonight.

But like my good debater Ty says. Every healer shouldn’t be punished for the small amount of bad ones we have.

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I don't know what content you run that healers can't keep up with one gcd among 20 every 20s. And if it's savage/ultimate, the problem is not the healer, it's the player.



We need more damage actions, healers are green dps, and if people can't understand that (from how the game is structured at its core) they're in the wrong game.

And there's no need to write entire books that provide 0 meaningful information (and only superficial data) to the issues being mentioned. What matters most is gameplay that matches the game and it's not there (aside from pvp) right now.