Revert Shatter back to the Original Map

pre 6.1 was peak frontline. the best it ever was and never gonna be as good.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

I think the PvP devs need to go out and play other MMORPG's, and experience what works, and what doesn't work. Steal, and innovate on their good ideas and throw whatever doesn't work in the garbage.

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Funny enough, on the jp topic one of the most upvoted posts was a suggestion about having a dedicated dev team and director for pvp only bc it's clear who is currently at the position is completely missing the mark not only due shatter changes but also the YOLO balance on the jobs so far.

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

I played it the other day for the first time, and they really did fix a lot of issues people were complaining about. As for me not having MNK bridge trolls baiting my team's noobs was great. There was a decent amount of pvp just none of the big standoff in the middle where one team willingly sandwiches themselves. That I do not miss.

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Those were players' fault, not old shatter, even bc all this happens on all maps, not only there. The only true issues the map really had were small ices spawning before the first big one at the start of the map baiting people off and, some jobs (and their healers), would have a extra hard time during the AoE fiesta on the active big ice - and those were minor issues that barely affected the gameplay at all.

It would be the same if I started to ask for the devs make onsal like the new shatter just bc too many people doesn't look at the score or even at the map to see where to go or what team to prioritize as target or even bc people get baited by a single PLD roaming the map when the most dangerous thing they can do is stun a single person with shield bash every 15 seconds.

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Originally Posted by Bergfinn

Those were players' fault, not old shatter, even bc all this happens on all maps, not only there. The only true issues the map really had were small ices spawning before the first big one at the start of the map baiting people off and, some jobs (and their healers), would have a extra hard time during the AoE fiesta on the active big ice - and those were minor issues that barely affected the gameplay at all.

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I would say yes and no. Strictly speaking it's their fault, but they aren't taught what to do in the PVP maps. Square is really bad about PVP instructions. How many people just skip the guide, or outright have it silenced because it's so overbearing in PVE? The problem is trying to explain to newer players mid match they will never get the better of that MNK MCH etc. seldom hits home but also wastes your attention as well effectively downing your team by two players.

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Originally Posted by Bergfinn

It would be the same if I started to ask for the devs make onsal like the new shatter just bc too many people doesn't look at the score or even at the map to see where to go or what team to prioritize as target or even bc people get baited by a single PLD roaming the map when the most dangerous thing they can do is stun a single person with shield bash every 15 seconds.

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They kind of addressed this with the HUD scoreboard change. The quest log scoreboard was pretty terrible and overdue for an overhaul. I wish we could figure out the map thing, but I think something akin to hall of the novice for PVP would help both of these issues.

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Originally Posted by Xeonerable

It is indeed worse, the constant uptime of shards means that if you fall behind there's basically slim chance of catching up.

Then again I'm pretty sure SE doesn't internally test anything PVP related.

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You have a better chance of catching up now because there are more big ice. All you have to do is actually pvp and deny the winning team access to big ice. Came back from a 400 point deficit the other day.

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Originally Posted by maximesan514

pre 6.1 was peak frontline. the best it ever was and never gonna be as good.

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Can't remember but the winrate was probably a lot better too.

pre 6.1 FLs was the exact same stuff. Rose tinted glasses much.

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Originally Posted by Valence

pre 6.1 FLs was the exact same stuff. Rose tinted glasses much.

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Not saying there weren't problems with pre 6.1 but at least each class had single target and aoe abilities whereas now some classes have more aoe capabilities than others plus the latency/lag or wutever you wanna call it wasn't as bad and roles had better utility all which is not present in today's FL

Worth dropping this here, I think:

"The new Shatter, and why you're playing it wrong"
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ying_it_wrong/

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

Not saying there weren't problems with pre 6.1 but at least each class had single target and aoe abilities whereas now some classes have more aoe capabilities than others plus the latency/lag or wutever you wanna call it wasn't as bad and roles had better utility all which is not present in today's FL

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I'd rather deal with all that than the return of the fake Melee, Piercing Talon Dragoon or Phantom Dart + Addle on caster role. Or zero punishment phys ranged hitting GCDs by bobbing and weaving back and forth from a wall.

With all due respect, it is best to look at what used to be without rose-tinted glasses.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I'd rather deal with all that than the return of the fake Melee, Piercing Talon Dragoon or Phantom Dart + Addle on caster role. Or zero punishment phys ranged hitting GCDs by bobbing and weaving back and forth from a wall.

With all due respect, it is best to look at what used to be without rose-tinted glasses.

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Not really rose tinted glasses as i stated what made pre 6.1 better and considering your trading complaints of drg piercing talon with everyone else's issues with DRG, sam and nin LB, also how is changing brd now acceptable means of progress but yet this wasn't possible to do to alleviate the supposed issue you have/had as I said pre 6.1 had issues but comparatively it was better

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Originally Posted by Cidel

Worth dropping this here, I think:

"The new Shatter, and why you're playing it wrong"
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ying_it_wrong/

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Maybe I'm wrong in my interpretation/inference but it seems like the post can be summed up in "prioritize kills over objectives" which isn't a new concept hell one of the pvp discords has/had a whole thread devoting to this principle so the buzzfeed esque post doesn't offer anything useful aside from a good eye roll, my apologies if in the event this comes off as me directing my criticism at you which isn't the case,

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Originally Posted by Cidel

Worth dropping this here, I think:

"The new Shatter, and why you're playing it wrong"
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...ying_it_wrong/

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This person making that reddit post assumes that Frontline players Understand the objective, and how points are rewarded/taken away. The vast majority of people just doing frontlines for the roulette have no idea about any of this, and honestly they don't care. This would be different if we were talking about a more skilled group of players perhaps the likes of CC or Ranked.

PvP maps need to be accessible, and easily understood by people who are half-paying attention. If you give the vast majority of Frontline players the choice they're just going to plonk away at ice rather than attack other players, and thats the problem with this map. Nobody is doing PvP.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

This person making that reddit post assumes that Frontline players Understand the objective, and how points are rewarded/taken away. The vast majority of people just doing frontlines for the roulette have no idea about any of this, and honestly they don't care. This would be different if we were talking about a more skilled group of players perhaps the likes of CC or Ranked.

PvP maps need to be accessible, and easily understood by people who are half-paying attention. If you give the vast majority of Frontline players the choice they're just going to plonk away at ice rather than attack other players, and thats the problem with this map. Nobody is doing PvP.

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An easy fix for this would be to add score to the Floating Damage Numbers and kill feed in the chat. Players know what an ice is worth because the chat log tells them; if players saw a "+10" over enemy players as they died and a "-5" over their own head when they died, it might help convey why PvP matters.

I'm trying to make a habit of snipping scoreboards so I can get a better feel for the scoring breakdown, but I've seen a few teams doing the full PvP approach and it is very effective:
https://i.imgur.com/QKofon1.png
https://i.imgur.com/lP08WRn.png

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Originally Posted by Elfidan

I would say yes and no. Strictly speaking it's their fault, but they aren't taught what to do in the PVP maps. Square is really bad about PVP instructions. How many people just skip the guide, or outright have it silenced because it's so overbearing in PVE? The problem is trying to explain to newer players mid match they will never get the better of that MNK MCH etc. seldom hits home but also wastes your attention as well effectively downing your team by two players.

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That's I agree, tbh they should copy GW2 structured PvP (they are kinda mini frontlines with two teams), where soon you enter the match a pop up appears on your screen briefly explaining how to deal with the map objectives, giving a simple but easy to understand directions.

At the same time, in terms of skill and how job works in pvp, a lot only comes to test and practice, everyone will commit mistakes gradually learn from them. (and since we are from the same datacenter, most of the people who ignores and go full yolo/jebaited aren't even new players, may the Twelve have mercy for us)

Now for the HUD, one of the very first thing people found out is how to hide it due "being too ugly on their clean UI", the same reason they also hide the duty list where the old score board is located... (again may the Twelve have mercy for us)

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Originally Posted by Valence

pre 6.1 FLs was the exact same stuff. Rose tinted glasses much.

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The biggest issue pre 6.1 FL were white mages being almost invincible divine beings that needed 10+ people to focus on them to get killed... And on 6.1 the devs addressed the issue giving them not only the best cc in the game (imp) but also the best LB in the game, a 40 yalm kamehameha with really fast recharge that did hit like a truck, stuns everything that got hit by it and also heals your party.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

This person making that reddit post assumes that Frontline players Understand the objective, and how points are rewarded/taken away. The vast majority of people just doing frontlines for the roulette have no idea about any of this, and honestly they don't care. This would be different if we were talking about a more skilled group of players perhaps the likes of CC or Ranked.

PvP maps need to be accessible, and easily understood by people who are half-paying attention. If you give the vast majority of Frontline players the choice they're just going to plonk away at ice rather than attack other players, and thats the problem with this map. Nobody is doing PvP.

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Unfortunately yes, most of the lukewarm bodies (mindless fodder) queuing Shatter don't actually understand anything beyond "hit ice, get points" thinking that is the sole objective in the mode. But even if the ice spawned less frequently, these are the same people that spend the whole game with no Battle High because they have no sense of awareness or Recuperate isn't a thing for them (ever see someone in your party die slowly with a full MP bar? it's painful). They're in every mode. So naturally this mode enables those people to run back and forth between ice and the only PvP they engage in is when they've somehow wandered near another team and someone attacks them and they fold. I don't know if the devs created this new Shatter to cater to the people who don't even know what their job's "burst" is, but from my experience, the team that has the aggressive players charging in and steamrolling the mindless fodder and accumulating Battle High nearly always ends up winning.

It doesn't seem like a surefire victory being just under 200 points away from second to win by pure PvP, though if your team was particularily aggressive (and coordinated enough.) you could just steamroll the two other PvE teams that are split apart plonking at small nodes the entire game.

I feel like if you want to win with pure PvP in this version of shatter you have to be aggressive against 2nd place the entire game, and not ignoring the big ice nodes - and making enough kills to pay for the small ices your team isn't hitting, and balancing out your attacks on both teams else the one not being focused will surpass you in whacking pinatas for points.

I preferred employing the pure PvP strategy in the original shatter. Ignoring nodes and mopping up both teams 2 or 3 times could end the game in less than 6 minutes. If this map of shatter wants to be on that same level they need to cut the ice spawns down, get rid of small nodes, or maybe remove plonking at ice entirely and just reward points for being in a capture zone. Reducing the number of points to earn a win would also be necessary.

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Originally Posted by Bergfinn

At the same time, in terms of skill and how job works in pvp, a lot only comes to test and practice, everyone will commit mistakes gradually learn from them. (and since we are from the same datacenter, most of the people who ignores and go full yolo/jebaited aren't even new players, may the Twelve have mercy for us)

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I guess it's fairer to say new to PVP. Mainly people drawn in by promises of series rewards and the like.

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Originally Posted by Bergfinn

Now for the HUD, one of the very first thing people found out is how to hide it due "being too ugly on their clean UI", the same reason they also hide the duty list where the old score board is located... (again may the Twelve have mercy for us)

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Yeah, I believe it and it causes me mental anguish.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

Not saying there weren't problems with pre 6.1 but at least each class had single target and aoe abilities whereas now some classes have more aoe capabilities than others plus the latency/lag or wutever you wanna call it wasn't as bad and roles had better utility all which is not present in today's FL

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Role utility was a lot more cancerous with healers. Everybody seems to have forgotten how having a pocket healer that had the ability to spamm heals AND rescue you when shit hits the fan literally made you almost invincible. Those kinds of BH5 players were literally playing on god mode.

And then the pvp reworks before mid ShB it was no medkits at all, so it was essentially the team fielding 2-3 healers vs the one fielding none that was guaranteed a win.

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Originally Posted by Valence

Role utility was a lot more cancerous with healers. Everybody seems to have forgotten how having a pocket healer that had the ability to spamm heals AND rescue you when shit hits the fan literally made you almost invincible. Those kinds of BH5 players were literally playing on god mode.

And then the pvp reworks before mid ShB it was no medkits at all, so it was essentially the team fielding 2-3 healers vs the one fielding none that was guaranteed a win.

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And instead of cancerous healing we have complaints of LBs or specific skills or jobs that are "op" not to mention the tank disparity that is the opposite of the healer problems in pre 6.1, I understand the healer concern truly but I think a potency reduction across the board would've alleviated that, (a cure 3 that was 400 and instead 300 is still better than no cure), now we've dug ourselves in this pit where we can't touch a job without neutering it

I've given the new Shatter a fair shot now, 15 games or so, and I think I can confidently say now that it's inferior to the previous iteration.

The smaller map, reduced points from ice, and no bases, has made the mode EXTREMELY kills-focused. While in other modes, you sometimes see comebacks and close games because of how teams play around the objectives, in the new Shatter, typically the most aggressive team gets a runaway lead and wins easily. Premades are already pretty dominant but the new Shatter takes it to another level, with teams facing a premade having virtually no hope of victory. The snowballing effect of Battle High and the incredible point potential of kills causes aggressive teams to dominate this mode in every single aspect.

Due to the low value of objectives compared to kills, teams which prioritize objectives almost always end up losing. Usually objectives give teams an idea of where to focus their efforts, but in the new Shatter the optimal approach is to outright ignore objectives to instead focus on kills. The typical Frontlines player is easily distracted by objectives, particularly in this mode as it allows them to avoid fighting other players (something which they are deathly scared of), yet counterintuitively this works to their team's detriment. By splitting off from their team's main force to attack ice, they diminish their killing ability and leave their team open to attacks from larger forces. All those points they think they're earning by diligently smashing ice are quickly siphoned away by aggressive teams killing their teammates and hastening their defeat.

I initially thought the mode was more fair with the more frequent ice spawns, but the spawns are not distributed evenly. Each large ice gives an advantage to one team, the one which has a slope from the ice leading to their base. The other teams must risk being pinched by entering from the cliffside or the center, leaving them only one viable exit. This wouldn't be a problem if the ice spawned evenly, but frequently it spawns in the same spot repeatedly, advantaging the same team over and over. So the map is arguably less fair than the previous iteration where each ice could only spawn once.


The fix for this isn't simple or obvious. The value of objectives vs killing needs to be balanced, and the way nodes work needs to be adjusted so that players cannot simply hide away and peck at ice all game without ever needing to PvP. Fewer ice active at once, less frequent spawns, higher point value of nodes. Hmm, this is starting to sound familiar. Kinda sounds like how the old map used to work.

Yeah, just go back to the old map. The new one isn't worth the work it would require to salvage when they could just bring back the original and solve basically every problem immediately. I'm not even sure why they changed it.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

And instead of cancerous healing we have complaints of LBs or specific skills or jobs that are "op" not to mention the tank disparity that is the opposite of the healer problems in pre 6.1, I understand the healer concern truly but I think a potency reduction across the board would've alleviated that, (a cure 3 that was 400 and instead 300 is still better than no cure), now we've dug ourselves in this pit where we can't touch a job without neutering it

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You seem to assume I stated that one was better than the other.

The past was also not clean of "OP" jobs, like NIN during SB especially, and DRG during ShB.

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Originally Posted by Valence

You seem to assume I stated that one was better than the other.

The past was also not clean of "OP" jobs, like NIN during SB especially, and DRG during ShB.

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neither assumed or implied as i stated previously pre 6.1 had issues in various post but the differences are if the devs had put in as much time and effort into that generation of FL as they are now then we would have been on a better path to progress to the mythical goal of "pvp balance", i cant speak on SB unfortunately i wasnt there, personally i think EW is great small scale pvp, however SHB had a better iteration for large scale pvp and shatter wasnt an issue as it is now

I disagree that ShB FLs was better. It was the same zerg fiesta, with other OP jobs and toxic combos. People just don't want to remember that.

Also it might depend of the datacenters people play on, I don't see much of those infamous 3 DRG/DRK combos where I play... Most people seem to play what they like.

Every single match feels the same

90% of your teammates are near the respawn camping small ices, never leaving the base, not even pvping at this point.

https://i.imgur.com/CYhXUi2.jpg

Most of the time I end up alone trying to pinch or interrupt the TF's between the other two alliances, absolutely horrible map I truly hate it.

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Originally Posted by HermitUK

An easy fix for this would be to add score to the Floating Damage Numbers and kill feed in the chat. Players know what an ice is worth because the chat log tells them; if players saw a "+10" over enemy players as they died and a "-5" over their own head when they died, it might help convey why PvP matters.

I'm trying to make a habit of snipping scoreboards so I can get a better feel for the scoring breakdown, but I've seen a few teams doing the full PvP approach and it is very effective:
https://i.imgur.com/QKofon1.png
https://i.imgur.com/lP08WRn.png

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I've also been keeping track of the post-screen data. I'm up to 50 matches of Shatter since the revamp and in 48/50 of those - the team with the highest 'Data Retrieved from Enemy Forces' (IE: A more pvp focused team), was the winner.

96%

To anyone who is trying to make the claim that new Shatter is 'too PVE' - It isn't. Its incredibly frustrating to have half of your team running around gathering small ice, when they should be focused on fighting enemy teams - yes.

EDIT: What is truly frustrating about this map, and has always been frustrating (even in its previous iteration) - is that you can tell you are on a losing team within minutes of starting the match. Usually by the end of the first big ice exchange. And without one of the other two teams just completely falling apart, you have almost zero chance of recovery and are forced to just kind of go through the motions for another 10 minutes of a losing match. Which, for anyone who actually cares about wins, is incredibly frustrating.

I don't like the Big Ice on the corner, because if you decided to jump through the cliff for Big Ice on the corner, there's chance you get sandwiched by 2 GCs, unlike old Shatter's map where you can escape easily...

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Originally Posted by AnnRam

Every single match feels the same

90% of your teammates are near the respawn camping small ices, never leaving the base, not even pvping at this point.

https://i.imgur.com/CYhXUi2.jpg

Most of the time I end up alone trying to pinch or interrupt the TF's between the other two alliances, absolutely horrible map I truly hate it.

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It probably feels the same because it loves to group the same people together, like that one guy who says "See you again!" at the end of every match. He knows.

One plus from it is I can get stacks for my reaper from smalls and have have 8 ready for use when I engage. Down side is the small ice take longer to down and the map is the pits.

I like the twist that team with most pve players (miners) lose on this map to pvp killers. But yeah, it's sad when you yourself get into pve team.

May be better communicating potential shard points would help. On the other hand if you're so passionate about it, you can always communicate strategy focusing on pvp to you team yourself (so far there're always fools coordinating mining operations).

May be time will help people to realize you get much better "miner picks" with gauge after killing a few competitors.

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Originally Posted by Rexxus

I've also been keeping track of the post-screen data. I'm up to 50 matches of Shatter since the revamp and in 48/50 of those - the team with the highest 'Data Retrieved from Enemy Forces' (IE: A more pvp focused team), was the winner.

96%

To anyone who is trying to make the claim that new Shatter is 'too PVE' - It isn't. Its incredibly frustrating to have half of your team running around gathering small ice, when they should be focused on fighting enemy teams - yes.

EDIT: What is truly frustrating about this map, and has always been frustrating (even in its previous iteration) - is that you can tell you are on a losing team within minutes of starting the match. Usually by the end of the first big ice exchange. And without one of the other two teams just completely falling apart, you have almost zero chance of recovery and are forced to just kind of go through the motions for another 10 minutes of a losing match. Which, for anyone who actually cares about wins, is incredibly frustrating.

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I'd probably be more convinced if the net kill points outweighed the the points you get from ice which is what would occasionally happen in the old Shatter because there was downtime/CD between ice spawn so peeps would either fight in mid or you could get a group to harass enemy base, I understand the point you're trying to make but the new mode has more of an emphasis on ice

There should not be PvE nodes that spawn so rapidly in a PvP mode. Even if 96% of the time the team that PvP's the most wins, its still not fun to play on.

The majority of people who queue into front lines Don't understand what they need to do to win, beyond smacking ice. You can give them all the guidance in the world but it only takes one party of your alliance running off to go plonk ice to seal your teams fate.

The objectives in any PvP map should be quick, and obvious to spot out. Sure killing people is an obvious way to score points, but the majority of the community Does not enjoy PvP. So they're going to plonk ice whenever they can just to avoid it. Shatter will always suck as a result.

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Originally Posted by Knot_D

I don't like the Big Ice on the corner, because if you decided to jump through the cliff for Big Ice on the corner, there's chance you get sandwiched by 2 GCs, unlike old Shatter's map where you can escape easily...

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I agree and it is annoying trying to look for a fast escape but you know if you jump down and the other teams know what they are doing you are cornered >.< I would like that to be fixed. I am not enjoying the new shatter as much it just feels boring.

I gave this map a chance for several matches, and it's... definitely not fun. It's pretty disappointing to be honest.

Just chiming in that I agree with the sentiment, summarized as:

• Lack of escape routes makes it easy for the other GC's to stomp any GC members jumping down.
• People don't understand and just focus on smashing small ice.
• Generally people will not read/not follow advice, leading to a splintered GC that is easy to pick off.
• Continuously spawning small ice acts as a distraction and takes away from the main objective.

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Originally Posted by Rexxus

To anyone who is trying to make the claim that new Shatter is 'too PVE' - It isn't. Its incredibly frustrating to have half of your team running around gathering small ice, when they should be focused on fighting enemy teams - yes.

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You're not wrong, but I think the argument is that the new shatter gives the "normie" little incentive to actually try and pvp, even more than the old shatter due to the fast spawn rate of the ice. In most of my fight so far, 8-9/10 times my team just runs to whatever ice is closest. "Do the objectivives pls", sigh... So, yes, the best obvious strat is to focus on the pvp part, but it's called pve because that is what ruins this mode.

It's like trying to herd cats. It doesn't work in shatter. They'll attack the small ice nodes, and to convince them otherwise especially in something like Alliance chat is a waste of effort. They do not want to make aggressive plays even if it were to mean a win for them. They'd rather just plonk the small ice nodes. That isn't PvP, that is PvE.

At least with a map such as Onsal, or Seal rock the value of nodes is known to everyone, its immiediately apparent what provides more points to your team, and people will naturally move to capture those points, which has to be done through PvP.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

I don't care about the JP forum, I speak english, I am on the english forum.

As for never had just PvP? Wtf does that make Onsal? Do people just stand around clicking the flags as fast as possible, making no effort to interupt captures? Onsal is literally a pure PvP map. I don't care if they add point pinatas, Though I'd prefer if they didn't. What they've done to shatter is a complete embarassment, the old version of it was fine, and nobody was asking for changes to it.

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I don't know if anyone else replied to this or not because the thread has gotten long, but pvp modes ABSOLUTELY need objectives other than straight deathmatch rules, which only works on very small scales. The original Wolves Den was straight deathmatch and it was awful. Slaughter was a straight deathmatch mode that existed on the old deprecated Secure map, and it was awful. Even the WoW arenas which are straight deathmatches and many players in that game enjoy are still incredibly unbalanced affairs that favor like 3 to 4 job setups in a season.

Even in Onsal, if you had no choke points and Ovoos to entice teams to move around the map, it'd be a shitty stalemate until one team loses a few players and it snowballs into a landslide.

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Originally Posted by Post

I don't know if anyone else replied to this or not because the thread has gotten long, but pvp modes ABSOLUTELY need objectives other than straight deathmatch rules, which only works on very small scales. The original Wolves Den was straight deathmatch and it was awful. Slaughter was a straight deathmatch mode that existed on the old deprecated Secure map, and it was awful. Even the WoW arenas which are straight deathmatches and many players in that game enjoy are still incredibly unbalanced affairs that favor like 3 to 4 job setups in a season.

Even in Onsal, if you had no choke points and Ovoos to entice teams to move around the map, it'd be a shitty stalemate until one team loses a few players and it snowballs into a landslide.

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I wasn't saying there Shouldn't be PvP objectives. I'm saying the PvP objectives should not be so abundant and plentiful that it removes the need to kill other players to achieve the objective.

-Onsal you must kill players in order to keep them from capturing Ovoos.
-Seal rock you must kill players to prevent them from capturing your tomeliths, or to take tomeliths from them.

That isn't true in Shatter. You can go and smash all the ice you like without needing to fire a shot at another player, because There is always ice spawning, at any given time. unlike the old shatter where;
-Ice nodes spawned once. If you ignored ice nodes, it put your team at a signficant disadvantage.
-You had to fight other players just to get to the Big node, or to keep your team in range of the big nodes.
-Small nodes mattered, and fights would occur between the contested small nodes.
-You had to fight other players to score points in the downtime between ice nodes, and pre-position your team for the next big ice spawns.
-Your team was forced to work together, or they'd get plowed, and lose.

This doesn't happen on the new shatter. You typically have 8 people on your team plonking small ice, and 16 people chasing big nodes and fighting with the other teams, and I say "fighting" its more like shoot at the enemy team a little before immiediately retreating because another big ice spawned not even 10 seconds after you just destroyed one. They chose this shameful excuse of a PvP rework to shatter, over other ideas they could have implemented, like using king of the hill, or a capture the flag mode to score points. The problem with Secure isn't that it has objectives, its that is has so many objectives that it encourages people to not PvP.

As for "Deathmatches". Theres a way to implement a deathmatch in a way that makes it fun, like pretty much every other MMORPG has done, including WoW. If you're looking for a PvP mode with 100% class balance it's not going to happen. There are always going to be "meta" jobs, and support roles which fill out other niches. Honestly, a pure deathmatch or even an Arena mode would be a lot more fun than what we currently have.

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Originally Posted by Archeron

. The problem with Secure isn't that it has objectives, its that is has so many objectives that it encourages people to not PvP.

As for "Deathmatches". Theres a way to implement a deathmatch in a way that makes it fun, like pretty much every other MMORPG has done, including WoW. If you're looking for a PvP mode with 100% class balance it's not going to happen. There are always going to be "meta" jobs, and support roles which fill out other niches. Honestly, a pure deathmatch or even an Arena mode would be a lot more fun than what we currently have.

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I'm always bemused when I see people say secure isn't pvp, when more than half the time your fighting to keep bases, I hope they fix/adjust the mid part but other than that and the occasional golfer, secure is a lot more pvp oriented than people say even more so than shatter, as for an arena deathmatch we had that with feast and previous modes but the devs in their infinite wisdom removed them

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

I'm always bemused when I see people say secure isn't pvp, when more than half the time your fighting to keep bases, I hope they fix/adjust the mid part but other than that and the occasional golfer, secure is a lot more pvp oriented than people say even more so than shatter, as for an arena deathmatch we had that with feast and previous modes but the devs in their infinite wisdom removed them

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Secure did not have PvP, because teams would rotate between bases, and avoid each other. If two teams were tied up fighting over one base, the odd team out would capture 3/4 bases and eclipse them in points, and they'd have an easier shot at going up to middle and claiming points - Far more points then you'd accquire from killing the enemy teams. It didn't benefit your team to get into fights, except in the middle - and then you'd retreat after drones died to go capture bases again. The only real PvP going on in Borderland ruins were small scale skirmishes between 1-2 people on base nodes until the reinforcments rolled in and plowed their enemies out of the way. It's a heavily outdated map which has been limping along for far too long.

Personally I would have demolished the central tower where drones spawned, and put a king of the hill zone in the centre of the map - Forcing teams to choose between fighting for the centre of the map, and gigantic amount of points it would reward to the occupying team, or capturing, and holding 4+ bases which would yield an equal, or superior amount of points. That would make Borderland ruins a more exciting map to play on, and encourage offensive, and defensive plays.