Paladin needs to be overhauled

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Originally Posted by Curisu

Once I accidentally queued in as PLD for CC.
Use the little time at the beginning to putt skills in my hotbar and read them while moving.

I hard stomped and carried that run.
No one was able to kill me while I was chasing down 2, 3 enemy's and dashed back to support my team.

I could not score many kills but my team was alive and could finish them on.
Was surprised about how good PLD is and understood now why it is so annoying to play against one.
Queued in a few more time as it and won the games easily.

PLD is fun to play and far from weak in low-mid rankings.

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Was this before or after you rescued a basket of kittens from a burning building?.......I joke, while i might be open minded into possibly believing your story im extremely skeptical but either congrats I think

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Ok for starters, please just edit your post and add additional quotes + comments. This circumvents the 3000 character limit from the initial post and condenses everything in one comment.

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tried didnt work for me, but The reason i took it into segments individually is because there sees to be a retention or cognitive dissonance issue with some of not only your responses but others as well which i will illuminate for you,also i dont enjoy doing it this way it limits me in the forum

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I believe you misunderstood what I am saying. I never said they are mutually exclusive - I said that if your teammate is the one running away while you already used cover (and hopefully used a macro for it with "Covering <teammate>!" in it) then you did your part, Cover in what the ability is supposed to be did its part and your teammate is the one being the issue.

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A skill that becomes ineffective/effective based on the RNG skillset/awareness of another is by its very nature is useless, what good is cover if the 10y tether is broken in the 1st second of activation that doesn't utilize its intended purpose ? what other skill or class has two draw backs with one gain? the response only you have is this same one, how does that help PLD?

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I never said anything about sticking around with a teammate who is clearly overextending. If they dive a backline alone and get gobbled up by four teammates or decide to not retreat in a 2v4/2v5 scenario with you, shame on them because you shouldn't Cover that and rather run to ensure your LB charges up.

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you can admit this scenario happens but not the plethora of others that render cover useless

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

before you assume and lecture me about situations with Cover and how animations about it may pan out, I actually play Paladin along with Dark Knight as my main jobs in PvP. The dash animation lock isn't so utterly damning as you make it out to be. For an ability of this caliber to give your teammate a second chance in life, the short wind-up is fair. I simply got used to it by reacting earlier rather than later.

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I think you should play PLD more because if you truly "main" it you'd have the forethought to recognize these scenarios with your responses, but you find cover not as troubling which is subjective so ill leave it at that.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I am glad you made it sure you know, but frankly I will have to repeat certain things since you can't talk about Cover one-dimensionally since it is a synergy-based ability.
1.) Once again, your teammates have skill issues. If your covered teammate insists on running away, that's on them not you.
2.) This isn't PvE, Paladin DPS doesn't matter as much as you want it does and a DPS loss by using Guardian-Guard is smaller than a DPS loss from either you or your teammate dying because that costs your team 15s+ LB charge time + about 20s or more of damage downtime from one player over 5s you not dpsing. If you care this much about your damage, you should give Dark Knight or Gunbreaker a serious consideration.
3.) Correct, this one is match-up dependent, though I kind of expected to not having to mention it.

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not sure what your trying to make with the PVE remark, but you seem to misunderstand when i say dps loss im not referring to PLD individual dps (as i have stated multiple times thats not my concern despite it being a flaw) what im referring to is the total dps of the 4v5 scenario in which the guard + cover creates or 3v5 if your teammate is using an elixir, im not against this combination it is indeed useful in certain events few and far between as they are but to praise it or put it on a pedestal is ridiculous

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

About intended/perfect play - I am sorry to tell you this, but looking at any abilities through the scope of the average player or the lowest common denominator is generally bad practice at job balancing. Just because your region may have a surplus of such players does not mean you should balance abilities around them.

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You think this is a smart or healthy model for success of a job let alone PVP in general to balance a skillset on select few rather than the general/casual player base? but yet you'll use average player for upcoming arguments

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Also no offense, "I am not even going to get into the fact that cover can't be used in 1v1" yeah no, this is like complaining SCH damage is low in 1v1 because you can't spread dots or damage buffs. Certain jobs are not made for 1v1.

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Despite PLD being able to solo kill or 1v1 prior to 6.1 with cover included, this is an a strange response but again not gonna push into 1v1 too much

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Hallowed also had +30s/+60s(pre-buff) the cooldown of Guard, Cover had a +20% dmg taken if they attacked you directly and there was no Elixir your teammate could make use of in the cover time. Also your own life tended to be relatively important as a medal carrier, particularly when Heavy Medal debuff was still around. You also were constantly duking it out as the objective were the players themselves in rather small arenas, so the mobility wasn't as great as you'd try to tell me.

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theres a bit to unpack here
1 teammates still had pots before 6.1 plus bloodbath for melee
2 cover has great mobility with guard (even tho this skill by its nature is a liability for mobility) but cover + HG isnt great because of........reasons?
3 youre "duking it out" regardless i dont know wut this point was even for
4 im pretty sure the debuff was removed in between or before shb patches not sure why this was brought up

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

"Gatekeep PLD as the sacrificial lamb" - ...what? Your job design with Cover in it literally is using your own life to protect another. If you get chain stunned from Covering a teammate, you saved a teammate and wasted a team a ton of stuns. You could also use Purify along with it so you WOULDN'T get chain stunned. And if you get stunned without Cover during Phalanx... then I am sorry, but you baiting those stuns is like the greatest W a tank in any game could hope for. Do you have any idea how many people might be thankful that they hit you and not them?

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You think thats healthy for the Job let alone the player, to have the job designed around this function? also using purify during a chain stunn why didnt i think of that i bet theres no myriad of scenarios or issues or skills that prevent purify prior to or during this scenario , thanks for this advice it never occurred to me, also i can tell you not many are as thankful as youre pretending it to be this is PVP we're talking about i dont know what gentlemenly matches youve been in but they are far out numbered by the reality of the response that is met when you die from a chain stun after LB was wasted or cover

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

I fail to see the point of this addition. You essentially only just moved Shield Bash onto Intervene to make "space" for Holy Spirit and giving it Shield Bash's cooldown. That is just making your stun more predictable and less flexible when you want to be mobile but keep your stun.

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Guardian has great mobility because it can gap close 20y for support but intervene with a stun function added and gap closing for offensive purposes is not flexible or predictable despite intervene + shield bash being relatively usable combo

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Like I'm sorry if I am on a huge disagreement with you, but what I am understanding is you are either wanting Paladin to do more than it should or your view on how good Paladin's kit is skewed because your teammates genuinely drag you down. I mentioned this earlier and it is really not meant with malice - consider dropping Paladin for another job if you can't enjoy for what it is worth.

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You can enjoy/love a job but still criticize it, the whole thesis is based on the compare and contrast in the 1st post its not a matter of saying PLD cant do more (which it can) or disregarding teammates skillset as you seem to often do. I sincerely recommend you play PLD more because my suspicion is you dont as much as you let on, dont be sorry in fact your disagreements are admirable even tho theyre antithetical to my own

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Originally Posted by Valence

You don't want to use Guardian without Guard on yourself. Unless you feel like trading your life for somebody else is worth it, but odds are you both are gonna die because if you drop fast, the cover will also go before the team mate gets out of trouble.

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im pretty sure we've established and have extensively gone into this with previous people

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Originally Posted by Valence

If you get chain stunned after your invuln, use Purify? Keep it ready before using the LB if possible. You know how purify works when it cleanses a debuff right? (and if you're referring to polymorph, then yeah, that ability can go to hell, but it's not just a PLD issue either)
PLD was actually one of the best if not the best AoE tank in ShB. I should know, I kept having the best damage tallies in feast up to diamond. Confiteor was just that good for it.

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Confeti is in no way a better substitute for Holy circle, youre smart enough to asses and realize poly but not enough for other issues or scenarios in which purify isnt usable?

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Originally Posted by Valence

Shieldbash's pro compared to Primal Rend is that one is instant, the other one has an insane animation delay and is also used for WAR's primary damage output. Shieldbash performs a lot better at securing kills, while Primal Rend is better at applying team pressure. They're not used exactly identically, and both shine at different things. I could see how one would see shieldbash as inferior if they're not using it to specifically hit targets out of resources in the shins when it will make them dead with a 99% probability.

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i think this is another example of perfect play mentality, what you illustrate requires a team effort/coordination which pvp does not have in terms of the majority of matches that is experienced both for CC and FL

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Originally Posted by Cheremia

I have a big fat crush on all good plds in cc, i was saved so often by cover.
Many good plds use some sort if cover-macro so the covered person is aware of it.

The stun is incredibly annoying to go against, but plds using it in an 1o1 is kinda stupid.
Most stuns are supposed to help your teammates

The lb can turn tides so hard in a lockout situation because guess what?
Stunning you is wasting their cc and 10 seconds for your people to come back + guard time is an incredible amount of time to regroup while the pld is annoying as hell and eats enemy rescourced.

Damage does not matter that much for pld and i have seen many plds just finish off enemies as help. Assists count too

I love good plds so much, please hold my hand while you annoy the enemy team, please

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Im glad you appreciate PLD but to say it should remain this way because a handful of players recognize its utility let alone optimize the openings that PLD give is to me beyond selfish for class that you dont play

prior to 6.1 stun was a deciding factor for PLD to achieve a kill also if youre implying that current PLD is capable of 1v1 then i think youve missed the entire thread
Stuning a PLD LB removes the dps (check thread regarding my stance on dps) and healing factor in the hopes that the team is able to use that chance to turn the tides, now i agree when this happens its glorious but again you as well as the handful of people that reply are framing this in perfect play which is not the majority

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

A skill that becomes ineffective/effective based on the RNG skillset/awareness of another is by its very nature is useless, what good is cover if the 10y tether is broken in the 1st second of activation that doesn't utilize its intended purpose ? what other skill or class has two draw backs with one gain? the response only you have is this same one, how does that help PLD?

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Your teammates have skill issue. Cover is beyond stupid in ranks where people know what to do with Cover, stop complaining about the "drawbacks" that depend on you using mitigation for yourself and the awareness of your teammates.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

I think you should play PLD more because if you truly "main" it you'd have the forethought to recognize these scenarios with your responses, but you find cover not as troubling which is subjective so ill leave it at that.

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Actually rich coming from the guy who complains about the "issues" an ability has that depends on his team not being a bunch of crayon-eaters. I'll continue playing where people aren't doing this, thank you very much.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

not sure what your trying to make with the PVE remark, but you seem to misunderstand when i say dps loss im not referring to PLD individual dps (as i have stated multiple times thats not my concern despite it being a flaw) what im referring to is the total dps of the 4v5 scenario in which the guard + cover creates or 3v5 if your teammate is using an elixir, im not against this combination it is indeed useful in certain events few and far between as they are but to praise it or put it on a pedestal is ridiculous

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Let me explain again:

If your teammate is able to Elixir around a corner to avoid death, that is ideal and saves himself a lot of damage lost.
If your teammate has no corner to do so and needs help now, Cover-Guard gives him that moment and it is better he gets to Elixir here while you protect him, saving him damage and limit break charge lost otherwise from dying.

Of course, ideally you never need to Cover-Guard-Elixir if your team strategically reduces the pressure from the enemy team. But the fact that you CAN do that is worth the damage loss from currently having a 3v5 fight for 5 seconds over losing a teammate for 15-20s.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

Your teammates have skill issue. Cover is beyond stupid in ranks where people know what to do with Cover, stop complaining about the "drawbacks" that depend on you using mitigation for yourself and the awareness of your teammates.

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again im pretty sure we've extensively gone into how to mitigate with cover, also how is a major factor regarding a skills utility not worth mentioning? i get that you frame the use of cover in minority of cases but is that in any way how anything works? the answer no solutions are based on the majority

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

You think this is a smart or healthy model for success of a job let alone PVP in general to balance a skillset on select few rather than the general/casual player base? but yet you'll use average player for upcoming arguments

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Ok so we should balance the game around crayon-eaters then and see what happens in the top ranks?

It's called trickle down balancing. They did balance Warrior initially for the bottom skill tiers by completely messing up Bloodwhetting so bad that playing it was actually detrimental. They reverted it after they stopped listening to knee-jerk reactions.

Skilled players know how to break your game if you give them the tools and likely have a better idea about problems in job kits.

Also I am not sure what arguments past this point I use average players as the basis, but feel free to point it out.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

Despite PLD being able to solo kill or 1v1 prior to 6.1 with cover included, this is an a strange response but again not gonna push into 1v1 too much

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You are not remembering right.

Cover existed before 5.1 and was replaced with Intervention between 5.1 and 6.1, with 6.1 it being replaced by Guardian.

The reason you were able to solo kill was because healing prior to 5.1 was basically limited to long CD additional actions or job specific actions. After 5.1 you had Vanguard + Rearguard potions, which later got fused into Medical Kit (aka Vanguard Potion). Damage numbers of individual jobs also got balanced around a rather medium time to kill and were focused on The Feast's team bursting strategy.

Sorry but the way you make me post made me reach my daily limit, so I'mma have to edit this post.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

theres a bit to unpack here
1 teammates still had pots before 6.1 plus bloodbath for melee
2 cover has great mobility with guard (even tho this skill by its nature is a liability for mobility) but cover + HG isnt great because of........reasons?
3 youre "duking it out" regardless i dont know wut this point was even for
4 im pretty sure the debuff was removed in between or before shb patches not sure why this was brought up

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1.) Correct. They had no Purify though to deal with your stun which you wanted to use during Blood Bath to cripple their sustain.
2.) You didn't "need" the mobility given that (at least in Feast) the arena was relatively small and you were constantly engaged. Also you couldn't "safely" Cover someone without a defensive just as before, Hallowed had a longer CD than Guard now. The main difference is you don't get to attack during Guard. I never said it wasn't great.
3.) Small arena, objective is the enemy player directly, meaning either you are glued to them or they are glued to you.
4.) You brought up patches with Cover prior to 6.1, which was when Heavy Medals were a thing (i.e. pre.5.1) and using Cover, while obviously possible, had some risk if you had 175-200 medals.

Paladin had enough mitigation / sustain to handle 1v1s in the 5.1 ShB period on top of his stun, which noone could Purify at the time except Healers. Prior to 5.1, you also had access to Shield Oath on top of Clemency and Holy Spirit while noone realistically had a lot of healing beyond a 30/45s(?) cooldown on Recuperate.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

You think thats healthy for the Job let alone the player, to have the job designed around this function?

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Am I thinking it is healthy that you can get chain stunned? No. I think Fetter Ward should become a global action and every type of CC should have a resist period just like before. Do I think it is IDEAL that a bunch of idiots hit all their stuns on you while you Phalanx and invuln it? Yes and I am tired of people like you pretending this to be a bad thing when it is literally the single-best scenario of enemy CC getting wasted, your own input be damned.

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also using purify during a chain stunn why didnt i think of that i bet theres no myriad of scenarios or issues or skills that prevent purify prior to or during this scenario , thanks for this advice it never occurred to me, also i can tell you not many are as thankful as youre pretending it to be this is PVP we're talking about

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Oh please spare me your sarcasm, you know exactly what I meant by this.

I dont know what gentlemenly matches youve been in but they are far out numbered by the reality of the response that is met when you die from a chain stun after LB was wasted or cover[/QUOTE]
If we are still talking about Crystalline conflict - I don't get chain stunned because I am not insane enough to dive in without Guard and Purify ready to save someone, especially when the enemy has a WHM and/or a Bard.

If this is Frontlines - I give you this, fair point, this mode badly needs CC resist though or return to 8v8v8 which they removed after 5.1.

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Originally Posted by Reinhardt_Azureheim

You are not remembering right.

Cover existed before 5.1 and was replaced with Intervention between 5.1 and 6.1, with 6.1 it being replaced by Guardian.

The reason you were able to solo kill was because healing prior to 5.1 was basically limited to long CD additional actions or job specific actions. After 5.1 you had Vanguard + Rearguard potions, which later got fused into Medical Kit (aka Vanguard Potion). Damage numbers of individual jobs also got balanced around a rather medium time to kill and were focused on The Feast's team bursting strategy.

Paladin had enough mitigation / sustain to handle 1v1s in the 5.1 ShB period on top of his stun, which noone could Purify at the time except Healers. Prior to 5.1, you also had access to Shield Oath on top of Clemency and Holy Spirit while noone realistically had a lot of healing beyond a 30/45s(?) cooldown on Recuperate.

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I wasnt referencing after 5.1 the point again is a compare and contrast which you've just illustrated my point better and i thank you for it

If you end up continuing this conversation the ill hold off after this because there seems to be a conflation subjects going on regarding cover

1 when i say PLD had cover in 1v1 setting both current and in 5.1 or pre what i referring to is the ability to kill which it no longer can i bring this up because everyone says PLD shouldnt be able to kill even tho it could with a skill that was unusable in its toolkit

2 regarding the heavy medal debuff mobility issue vs guard the differnce being as you point out the immobilization as well as other issues with the current guard + cover
to me cover even with the medal debuff was a better trade off

PvP is mostly balanced around CC and PLD is in a good spot there. They cannot start balancing around 1v1 and the fact that you might not get perfect teammates in PvP :p

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Originally Posted by Nanne

PvP is mostly balanced around CC and PLD is in a good spot there. They cannot start balancing around 1v1 and the fact that you might not get perfect teammates in PvP :p

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Is this statement reliant upon the previous posters or is there something new to add or different perspective? Also I find the last part as well as those that share this sentiment, odd considering that people wish to maintain PLD as a support class/role and what exactly does support need I wonder?

My man, you can put multiple points into a single post.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

Is this statement reliant upon the previous posters or is there something new to add or different perspective? Also I find the last part as well as those that share this sentiment, odd considering that people wish to maintain PLD as a support class/role and what exactly does support need I wonder?

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PLD is one of the best support classes in the game. 3 sec stun is phenomenal for securing kills on people that have spent Purify (and it's half the cooldown of Purify too), 2 dashes plus a dash built into Guardian gives them excellent mobility, the have the best defense button in the game, and Sacred Claim is very good team support. And like most 120 sec LBs, their LB is an absolute game-changer. It's a very bad idea to fight into PLD LB unless your team already had a serious advantage to start with, in most cases you *must* disengage and try to wait it out.

PLD does not need anything new or different. Their kit is fantastic the way it is. I guess you could give them a little bit of extra potency or something? It wouldn't make much of a difference though.

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Originally Posted by Gserpent

PLD is one of the best support classes in the game. 3 sec stun is phenomenal for securing kills on people that have spent Purify (and it's half the cooldown of Purify too), 2 dashes plus a dash built into Guardian gives them excellent mobility, the have the best defense button in the game, and Sacred Claim is very good team support. And like most 120 sec LBs, their LB is an absolute game-changer. It's a very bad idea to fight into PLD LB unless your team already had a serious advantage to start with, in most cases you *must* disengage and try to wait it out.

PLD does not need anything new or different. Their kit is fantastic the way it is. I guess you could give them a little bit of extra potency or something? It wouldn't make much of a difference though.

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my question was sarcastic, which i should've done a better job at but ill expand further if youre saying PLD is the best support then it, what does a support role need in a team based PVP? the answer a good team to utilize that support, however this is not the case as explained in the thread. I get it i truly do in perfect play PLD is amazing no question hell if we had pre made v pre made CC i wouldnt be on this thread but neither of these is the case, majority of matches PLD support is wasted, as for your stun comment it by no means is anything to praise NIN has a better stun for team utility than PLD, MNK & WAR also have a quick CD for stun. The guardian skill has already been discussed in great length, I honestly think people romanticize this class way too much and only look at it on paper, the kit has alot that can be changed or added for better utility, potency maybe but that seems like a weak/lazy solution.

As for FL or 1v1 i'll not make a case

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

i think this is another example of perfect play mentality, what you illustrate requires a team effort/coordination which pvp does not have in terms of the majority of matches that is experienced both for CC and FL

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Don't play coy, I actually also hate when people use the perfect play argument without taking into account the actual effort balance behind.

I'm saying that if a target is dropping low and tries to run away, it's a prime target for a stun, because odds are your team is pummeling them pretty hard right now. It doesn't even need coordination, the coordination comes from YOUR end, which is identifying such targets and punishing them for overcommitting by preventing them to escape and securing kills.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

Confeti is in no way a better substitute for Holy circle, youre smart enough to asses and realize poly but not enough for other issues or scenarios in which purify isnt usable?

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Which are what...? RPR and DNC LB?

And what does Confiteor have to do with purify?

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Originally Posted by Valence

Don't play coy, I actually also hate when people use the perfect play argument without taking into account the actual effort balance behind.

I'm saying that if a target is dropping low and tries to run away, it's a prime target for a stun, because odds are your team is pummeling them pretty hard right now. It doesn't even need coordination, the coordination comes from YOUR end, which is identifying such targets and punishing them for overcommitting by preventing them to escape and securing kills.

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You might hate it but it doesn't negate its validity even now you're still using it, no shit if a target with low health is running any class would pursue for the kill this isnt unique to PLD in this scenario you haven't fully thought about, what's stopping these "amazing" teammates of a vague makeup that have been pummeling the opponent to use their debuff? Is the match-up 1v4 if so why isn't the opponent dead already?
I can go on but unless you decide to actually use PLD more I don't think these examples you come up with hold any water and lastly

"the coordination comes from YOUR end, which is identifying such targets and punishing them for overcommitting by preventing them to escape and securing kills"

this is a playstyle/tactic you wish to impose much like the 1st person who replied said PLD should be a distraction or how about the idiots who say PLD should only move the crystal, now granted of course the coordination comes from me when this opportunity presents itself from the same way when it comes to guardian and I'm keeping on eye on ally' hp & location, however again it's also incumbent upon my team to coordinate as well this isn't a one way street

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Originally Posted by Valence

PLD was actually one of the best if not the best AoE tank in ShB. I should know, I kept having the best damage tallies in feast up to diamond. Confiteor was just that good for it.

Which are what...? RPR and DNC LB?

And what does Confiteor have to do with purify?

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So you're telling me if you're PLD LB is at the 100s mark and you get a debuff, your supposed to just wait and hope no one attacks you? And yeah those LBs too

Maybe I'm wrong but it sounded like you said confetti is a good substitute from previous PLD aoe if I am my apologies

You're telling me that you don't understand the insane advantage a CC or stun is on a target that's out of resources? Even with high HP? If it's being bursted down by your team, it's gonna drop in 2s if stunned. If you're not able to identify such targets and shield bash them, you'd be better off playing a different job I think. That your teamates use their debuffs and CC is totally irrelevant to that point, since yours is already ENOUGH to secure kills on its own. And yes indeed, I also that on other jobs as well, because that's how you should play stuns (Air anchor ready? Frozen ready? Silence is up? Polymorph? Keep and eye out for over exposed enemies that are being attacked by your team, stun them, watch them die instead of getting away). Shieldbash is one of those, and for that point alone, it makes it strong.

There is no playstyle I'm trying to impose, you're free to play however you like, but that is how the job is designed to perform the best. If you don't want to play it like that, then don't, but then don't complain that you're underperforming with it.

You can keep attacking my own experience with the job that you have literally no idea about as much as you want, it's just showing how unsecure you are about your own.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

So you're telling me if you're PLD LB is at the 100s mark and you get a debuff, your supposed to just wait and hope no one attacks you? And yeah those LBs too

Maybe I'm wrong but it sounded like you said confetti is a good substitute from previous PLD aoe if I am my apologies

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If you get a debuff, you use purify, that's as simple. Use LB if possible when Purify is ready. Purify will cleanse it and will give you 5s of cc immunity. If you get hit by miracle of nature, sucks to be you, like any other job, because that crap is broken, but at least you're still invulnerable and the best effects from your LB are still going on while they waste crap on you. Else, the only things I can see are those LBs (and MNK but lol if a MNK actually wastes theirs on you), and imo they're spending their LBs and not a spammable stun, so I consider this a decent trade. And using a long charging LB like Contradance during an enemy Phalanx would be totally stupid and wasted anyway.

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Originally Posted by Valence

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There is no playstyle I'm trying to impose, you're free to play however you like, but that is how the job is designed to perform the best. If you don't want to play it like that, then don't, but then don't complain that you're underperforming with it.

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In no way has it been disclosed that this job was designed around this function, you're just making things up at this point

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Originally Posted by Valence

You can keep attacking my own experience with the job that you have literally no idea about as much as you want, it's just showing how unsecure you are about your own.

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Same can be said about you and anyone else

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Originally Posted by Valence

You're telling me that you don't understand the insane advantage a CC or stun is on a target that's out of resources? Even with high HP? If it's being bursted down by your team, it's gonna drop in 2s if stunned. If you're not able to identify such targets and shield bash them, you'd be better off playing a different job I think. That your teamates use their debuffs and CC is totally irrelevant to that point, since yours is already ENOUGH to secure kills on its own. And yes indeed, I also that on other jobs as well, because that's how you should play stuns (Air anchor ready? Frozen ready? Silence is up? Polymorph? Keep and eye out for over exposed enemies that are being attacked by your team, stun them, watch them die instead of getting away). Shieldbash is one of those, and for that point alone, it makes it strong.

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Where are getting this notion that I don't understand how critical stun is? Even tho I'm pretty sure I said how important it is, and how exactly is it irrelevant? Or will your reply be "It just is"

https://youtu.be/0QDcwUQ1RQE

Even tho every fiber is telling me not share this I do so because this will help illustrate my point with the next video
Also I'm aware of the mistakes I made i.e relying way too much on confetti, not using HS in the beginning of my dive, and targeting the GNB but tbf I wanted the whm but my targeting setup is kinda screwy

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

In no way has it been disclosed that this job was designed around this function, you're just making things up at this point

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You said it yourself, I quote: "this is a playstyle/tactic you wish to impose"

Again, I'm telling you that shieldbash is intended to be played that way, and it's very good for the reasons I exposed. If you want to keep dodging them and diving down on your usual ad personam, then feel free though, but without me. You're not worth my sanity.

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

Where are getting this notion that I don't understand how critical stun is? Even tho I'm pretty sure I said how important it is, and how exactly is it irrelevant? Or will your reply be "It just is"

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I quote again: "You might hate it but it doesn't negate its validity even now you're still using it, no shit if a target with low health is running any class would pursue for the kill this isnt unique to PLD in this scenario you haven't fully thought about, what's stopping these "amazing" teammates of a vague makeup that have been pummeling the opponent to use their debuff? Is the match-up 1v4 if so why isn't the opponent dead already?"

All i've been saying is that shieldbash is a hard stun with no delay, and it makes it very good by those two facts alone. You keep deflecting on how your team sucks, but your stun doesn't need your team to use their own stuns. Your stun is doing what it is doing the best already: securing kills. If you're not happy with what a stun does, then all stuns and crowd control in pvp are equally bad or worse, and that doesn't make any sense.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by RyanCousland

https://youtu.be/0QDcwUQ1RQE

Even tho every fiber is telling me not share this I do so because this will help illustrate my point with the next video
Also I'm aware of the mistakes I made i.e relying way too much on confetti, not using HS in the beginning of my dive, and targeting the GNB but tbf I wanted the whm but my targeting setup is kinda screwy

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Very first part I'm actually surprised you managed to survive charging in so deep like that. You're literally closing the door to any hope of retreating. Fortunately the opposite team seem to be crumbling pretty hard in terms of damage and skill gap... You used a good shieldbash to secure a kill on a DRG I think after, which is a good use of it. Later your team reaches the point and gets nuked out of the sky by 3 game changing LBs at the same time (SMN, BLM, WHM). Not much you could do but die. That's how stupidly overtuned LBs are when combined together.

Your team comes back and does mostly the same with a couple of LBs, albeit less fast because not the same combined punch, on top of securing the life of your team with phalanx and cover. Then you secure another kill on a fleeing BLM, good. Good use on bash again on stunning a GNB and killing him with the wind gusts.

Then you pretty much win because your team is literally crushing them.

Can you remind me what was the point again and what this is trying to show in specific? Your use of the job and what the job can do in this game seems pretty solid to me, even though that's just one game among many.

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Originally Posted by Valence

You said it yourself, I quote: "this is a playstyle/tactic you wish to impose"

Again, I'm telling you that shieldbash is intended to be played that way, and it's very good for the reasons I exposed. If you want to keep dodging them and diving down on your usual ad personam, then feel free though, but without me. You're not worth my sanity.

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my apologies, when you said "that is how the job is designed to perform the best." i assumed you meant from a position of authority or dev perspective/intent because it seems we're arguing 2 different subjects youre talking about stun(the skill) im talking about PLD as a whole.

Your comment "I'm saying that if a target is dropping low and tries to run away, it's a prime target for a stun, because odds are your team is pummeling them pretty hard right now. It doesn't even need coordination, the coordination comes from YOUR end, which is identifying such targets and punishing them for overcommitting by preventing them to escape and securing kills" isnt PLD exclusive any job can have this responsibility