YPYT is griefing. Tank role is not "puller" role

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Originally Posted by ijuakos_xqwzts

It's about "resource management", not "griefing".

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What are you even talking about?

Mana economy in this game doesn't exist, and there are literally maybe 2 trash pulls in the entire game that have dangerous raid-wide damage that would prompt you to spend ogcds on a dps who took extra damage. DPS who pull aren't going to die if the tank is responsive, and they won't require any healing because they won't take any more damage once aggro is established. In fact, a Melee pulling with Arms Length up will actually decrease the total damage taken by the party during a trashpull. The only thing that will prompt you to heal a DPS more is a petty, useless tank who refuses to pick mobs up.

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Originally Posted by Besame

That is why I avoid dungeons. tanks that just move to gather 3x sets of trash w/o notifying nor asking if the group is ok with it.

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Mass pulling is just completely standard play in this game, why would you expect someone to notify you about it?

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Originally Posted by Fandele

But I do remember one particular instance in Smileton, where three of us queued in duty finder for a fourth, and ended up with a very impatient reaper who repeatedly pulled All The Things. Now, I did my best, but we did end up wiping twice in the span of about 90 seconds, he bailed, and dutyfinder replaced him almost immediately with another dps with whom we went on to finish without further incident.

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All this means is that someone would rather take a 30 minute penalty than play with you in a dungeon. If a party is wiping to double pulls in an endgame dungeon like Smileton, it means they've somehow made it through the entire MSQ without ever learning how to play the game at an extremely basic level.

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

What are you even talking about?

Mana economy in this game doesn't exist, and there are literally maybe 2 trash pulls in the entire game that have dangerous raid-wide damage that would prompt you to spend ogcds on a dps who took extra damage. DPS who pull aren't going to die if the tank is responsive, and they won't require any healing because they won't take any more damage once aggro is established. In fact, a Melee pulling with Arms Length up will actually decrease the total damage taken by the party during a trashpull. The only thing that will prompt you to heal a DPS more is a petty, useless tank who refuses to pick mobs up.



Mass pulling is just completely standard play in this game, why would you expect someone to notify you about it?



All this means is that someone would rather take a 30 minute penalty than play with you in a dungeon. If a party is wiping to double pulls in an endgame dungeon like Smileton, it means they've somehow made it through the entire MSQ without ever learning how to play the game at an extremely basic level.

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You're making a lot of assumptions about a lot of things.

Not everyone is equally skilled. It doesn't matter if they're level 90. You don't know what path they took to reach level 90 on the job.

Level sync changes what tools the players have available. Being short the extra level to gain an important CD can make a difference, especially if party members are at minimum level for the dungeon with old quest rewards for gear.

Mass pulling is NOT completely standard. I've joined just as many groups where the tank goes one pack at a time as groups where the tank pulls wall to wall. I'm far happier at letting the tank set a pace they feel comfortable with. I'm not in a huge rush to complete the dungeon.

If you don't want to work cooperatively with the group, then you won't mind taking that 30 minute penalty. Will you?

Mass pulling is the standard. I'm sure most people, including myself, have seen most tanks choosing big pulls in higher level content. If you look into this topic and see what people have to say, many people prefer big pulls and view it as the norm (but of course it's understandable to want a slow pace if it's your first time in a dungeon or tanking). I've recently leveled a lot of classes to 90 through Endwalker dungeons and I've never seen a small pull, and this goes for Shadowbringers and Stormblood (Excluding sprout tanks/healers, undergeared tanks/healers and perhaps Bardam's Mettle) since I remember big pulls being the norm as well. If you think about it, why wouldn't big pulls be the norm? Most people have done these dungeons many times before, CDs are utilized more effectively, everything goes faster. Of course small pulls are completely okay but big pulls are the norm.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Not everyone is equally skilled. It doesn't matter if they're level 90. You don't know what path they took to reach level 90 on the job.

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It requires around 4 inputs to play a tank effectively enough to facilitate mass pulls at level 90, ignoring moving your character. If someone is incapable of that, I am absolutely filled with horrific fear concerning how they operate in the real world. We trust the average person to pilot a 1 ton hunk of metal flying down the highway at 80mph, and you're seriously telling me that expecting them to press four buttons on a video game is too much?

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

Mass pulling is NOT completely standard. I've joined just as many groups where the tank goes one pack at a time as groups where the tank pulls wall to wall. I'm far happier at letting the tank set a pace they feel comfortable with. I'm not in a huge rush to complete the dungeon.

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Mass pulling is considered the endgame standard. Instances of people single-pulling endgame dungeons is absolutely the exception.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

If you don't want to work cooperatively with the group, then you won't mind taking that 30 minute penalty. Will you?

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Why would I bother taking a 30 minute penalty when I do all of my roulettes with a kicking majority? If someone is going to grief me and waste my time in a level 90 dungeon, I'll just use the wonderful vote-kick feature and instantly fill their slot with someone else who can actually pass the turing test.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

You're making a lot of assumptions about a lot of things.

Not everyone is equally skilled. It doesn't matter if they're level 90. You don't know what path they took to reach level 90 on the job.

Level sync changes what tools the players have available. Being short the extra level to gain an important CD can make a difference, especially if party members are at minimum level for the dungeon with old quest rewards for gear.

Mass pulling is NOT completely standard. I've joined just as many groups where the tank goes one pack at a time as groups where the tank pulls wall to wall. I'm far happier at letting the tank set a pace they feel comfortable with. I'm not in a huge rush to complete the dungeon.

If you don't want to work cooperatively with the group, then you won't mind taking that 30 minute penalty. Will you?

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Mass pulling is in 90% of dungeons above level 50. Not being equally skilled is -not- what is being talked about btw. If you wipe because someone is clearly struggling, then slow the roll of the dungeon because that is /not/ YPYT. You get the difference between unintentionally wiping vs. intentional wipes right?

at least try to pull more. there are so many players who dont even try. you dont play this game alone. dont stay in your comfortzone forever. you wont get used to it or getting better if you never do it.
worst thing that can happen is death... in a game... great

Why are people afraid of wipes? So what? Get up and go again!

Would you allow a healer to go "You stand in it you heal it"? No, cause its their job to keep you alive. Such is the same with YPYT. its Your job to maintain aggro and keep the mobs and their aoes (terms and conditions apply) on you. Would a tank being the first to pull make it easier? Yes. is it hard to get aggro back from another player? No, a aoe, any aoe would do. (unless there is like something majorly wrong with gear or the tank isn't AOE/Attacking)

Don't get me wrong, doesn't mean the other party member is not at fault, either. Everyone is. Communicate!!! Just Communicate you want bigger pulls, or communicate why you're taking smaller ones.

But do not let someone die for pulling. That is, Refer to https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&kid=68216 the TOS where it says:

Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior
Refers to an act of performing actions that give an advantage to an enemy (monsters, or the opposing team/players in PvP content) by not performing the necessary gameplay required of the situation. This may be combined with combat sabotage as well

yes it also states that

Each player has a different level of skill, and in some cases, there may be a situation where the duty/content will fail. From the perspective of a skilled player in such a situation, a less skilled player may appear to be "adversarial/uncooperative/apathetic," but even if this is the case, it is not a violation as long as the player is playing appropriately.

Focus on the "it is not a violation as long as the player is playing appropriately."

Letting someone die is not appropriate, no matter what they did, if you wipe, wipe, communicate, and move on or leave. As a tank its their job to hold and matain aggro and as the hall of novice says:
https://i.imgur.com/BwPQWFQ.png

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Originally Posted by JacobNewblood

Why are people afraid of wipes? So what? Get up and go again!

Would you allow a healer to go "You stand in it you heal it"? No, cause its their job to keep you alive. Such is the same with YPYT. its Your job to maintain aggro and keep the mobs and their aoes (terms and conditions apply) on you. Would a tank being the first to pull make it easier? Yes. is it hard to get aggro back from another player? No, a aoe, any aoe would do. (unless there is like something majorly wrong with gear or the tank isn't AOE/Attacking)

Don't get me wrong, doesn't mean the other party member is not at fault, either. Everyone is. Communicate!!! Just Communicate you want bigger pulls, or communicate why you're taking smaller ones.

But do not let someone die for pulling. That is, Refer to https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&kid=68216 the TOS where it says:

Aiding the enemy / Uncooperative behavior / Lethargic behavior
Refers to an act of performing actions that give an advantage to an enemy (monsters, or the opposing team/players in PvP content) by not performing the necessary gameplay required of the situation. This may be combined with combat sabotage as well

yes it also states that

Each player has a different level of skill, and in some cases, there may be a situation where the duty/content will fail. From the perspective of a skilled player in such a situation, a less skilled player may appear to be "adversarial/uncooperative/apathetic," but even if this is the case, it is not a violation as long as the player is playing appropriately.

Focus on the "it is not a violation as long as the player is playing appropriately."

Letting someone die is not appropriate, no matter what they did, if you wipe, wipe, communicate, and move on or leave. As a tank its their job to hold and matain aggro and as the hall of novice says:
https://i.imgur.com/BwPQWFQ.png

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Perfectly said. The ToS is very easily digestible via the provided link. Please take a look.

It depends on the situation for what you are talking about for the non-tank roles pulling.

Situation A - A patrol is walking too close to the healer and the tank missed that one enemy.

If you decide to peel it off the healer and drag it to the tank, yes please.

Situation B - The DPS are way ahead of the party and pulls assuming people will run in eventually.

If you are with friends who are in Discord saying they are getting there . . . maybe? Not a good idea to do in DF groups since they may be waiting on a cooldown they want for a few seconds. It took me a while to treat the SCH Dissipation cooldown like an extra Aetherflow cooldown.

Situation C - Someone accidentally wanders too far in and face pulls

Most cases, a good tank will forgive you the first time and take the enemy hate off of you. If the offence is repeated multiple times, the tank might ask you to stay behind them to help prevent this situation.

I like to get the mass pulls too to get the dungeons done faster, but we have to be realistic with the group's capabilities. If the tank or healer are new, it would be best to let them ease in first if they need it. If the first pulls are going along with high safety with melted enemies, you can suggest if everyone can try out a double pull next. If they show interest, you can suggest some staggered cooldown usage if they need to know. At least try to be respectful first since others will be far less likely to listen if you are rude to them.

As for the resource management, I don't think Mana was the talking point. We still have to contend with GCDs and oGCD animation locks. Benediction can only get 1 person at a time too. If the healer has to choose between the tank or DPS to use Benediction on, the tank is almost always going to win out to receive it. I will still try to get to the DPS as fast as I can once the tank is healthy. If I have Afflatus Solace ready and the tank has Regen already, splendid. The DPS will likely get that lily heal with the tank getting Benediction.

If I were to say what really happens, the situation is rare that a tank is dying. Regen, Divine Benison, Asylum / Temperance (Wings) with Holy stun spam tends to say no to a lot of the damage that could come from trash enemy packs. Sometimes Asylum and Temperance are skipped because we are over geared. However, we still have to triage for the tank if they need it to minimize wipes.

It is simple, if i tank i pull fast and as much as there is.
If i am not tanking and the tank is not moving on, i pull the enemies to the tank.

You pull it, I'll tank it.

I'd rather these people would have a proper rotation tho.

If you think things aren't going fast enough, dps would be way better suited to quicken things than pulling :P

Both sides have their black sheep, as everything else has too.

I don't report, I blacklist the tank and back out of the group. Penalty is nothing, I can go get something to eat, drink and stretch my legs and go at it in a few minutes :) I don't reaally do enough dungeons to worry about it, only msq and when I really want something gear-wise so I am not putting up with a non-communicative, power-mad alpha tank that thinks he knows it all.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

It is simple, if i tank i pull fast and as much as there is.
If i am not tanking and the tank is not moving on, i pull the enemies to the tank.

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Why? Are you in a hurry or something?

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

What are you even talking about?

Mana economy in this game doesn't exist, and there are literally maybe 2 trash pulls in the entire game that have dangerous raid-wide damage that would prompt you to spend ogcds on a dps who took extra damage. DPS who pull aren't going to die if the tank is responsive, and they won't require any healing because they won't take any more damage once aggro is established. In fact, a Melee pulling with Arms Length up will actually decrease the total damage taken by the party during a trashpull. The only thing that will prompt you to heal a DPS more is a petty, useless tank who refuses to pick mobs up.



Mass pulling is just completely standard play in this game, why would you expect someone to notify you about it?



All this means is that someone would rather take a 30 minute penalty than play with you in a dungeon. If a party is wiping to double pulls in an endgame dungeon like Smileton, it means they've somehow made it through the entire MSQ without ever learning how to play the game at an extremely basic level.

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That's a lot of assumptions there. I also prefer WtW pulls but I'm not expecting everyone to be like that. Pretty subpar attitude. A few more minutes don't bother me.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Why? Are you in a hurry or something?

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Yes, I am in a race against my own brain turning off in these dungeons that offer nothing new or interesting ever besides a different background .png

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Why? Are you in a hurry or something?

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Time is money friend, and both is scarce

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

It's a pretty big leap to assume that someone who had reached level 90 on a tank job knows how to tank considering it's possible to level without stepping foot into group content.

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This is a terrible excuse. You have no business queuing for 90 content if you've literally never touched a dungeon before on that given role. Doing so and then demanding everyone else conform to your inability is both entitlement and griefing.

"What if they just unlocked Sage?!"

Okay, cool. Go and queue into Stone Vigil or Brayflux Hard and get your feet wet. Don't jump into Holminster Switch as your first dungeon on a healer. The same applies to tanking. I'll never understand this line of logic. It's like jumping into a single player RPG using someone else's save file who's midway through the game only to complain "this game's too hard!!!" Well, yeah. You skipped all the lower level content meant to ease you into the game.

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Originally Posted by Payadopa

That's a lot of assumptions there. I also prefer WtW pulls but I'm not expecting everyone to be like that. Pretty subpar attitude. A few more minutes don't bother me.

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Empty virtue signaling.

You cannot reasonably project an air of moral superiorty while indirectly defending ToS violating griefing.

@ LittleImp

How do you know he supports the extreme YPYT? There are tanks who don't stop their job, but still voice their displeasure to what happened after the pull.

I do agree with you that big pulls are pretty common with me healing roulettes, but I still do see the rare one pull tanks too. Some step it up afterwards noticing I was not sweating with fewer still persisting. My healing character standing a little ahead of the path from the first pack might be enough to request the tank to pull more too.

@ Absurdity

If you are bored with the dungeons, you could try something new in addition for capping your tomestones. There are hunt trains, map dungeons and beast tribe dailies. Maybe just another game to take a break as a possibility too.

@ Arohk

We are responsible for our own time obligations individually. If you know your current real life activities do not give at least 20 - 30 minutes of leeway for doing a standard 4 man dungeon, it is not a good idea to queue.

@ ForteNightshade

Some of your points I can at least somewhat agree with. I have had multiple wipes on the level 73 8 man Trial dungeon when I was first levelling with the 2nd queue run going through quickly with no incident. We had people stand in the middle of the 3 line star AoE every attempt when I was first queuing for it. It does make me think an option for learning some more advanced tactics would be worth looking into for the players level skipping. Some players still treat the stack marker like the plague in a certain level 80 story 8 man Trial (if you know what I mean).

eg. A scenario where the tank NPC has 2 packs of enemies on him/her with the announcer telling the WHM to use Asylum, Regen and Divine Benison to keep up with the damage. As well as preferring Afflatus Solace over Cure 2 (and Afflatus Rapture over Medica if it is level 76+).

In the meantime, we can only do our best for damage control. As I said before, respectfully asking if they need assistance would be in order. If they are rude with the "you don't pay my sub" mentality, then a "vote kick" or "vote abandon duty" might be necessary if the run is being hindered by them.

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Originally Posted by Arohk

Time is money friend, and both is scarce

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Well, no.
Time isn't money, and rushing through a dungeon won't get you more of either.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

Well, no.
Time isn't money, and rushing through a dungeon won't get you more of either.

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Actually it is. You can clear max level dungeons within 10 minutes doing W2W pulls. You will clear in up to and over 20 minutes without it. If you need to do the top 3 roulettes for relic tomes for example, thats the difference of spending 30 min on something vs. an hour. Some of us have jobs and families so one player slowing the rest down is not exactly fun.

Conversely, there are actually situations where you can pull more than they can tank. On level tanks in low level content are not as strong as someone coming back over level to do the same, so don't be rude to baby tanks that can't handle the stuff yet.

That situation aside, while healing end game dungeons, or earlier where we are all overpowered, I will absolutely pull wall to wall and drag them back to a slow tank. I will keep them alive. If they refuse to tank, I will keep me alive while tanking and killing and healing. Then they get kicked for refusing to tank.

Joining as any class and refusing to play is indeed greifing. You could have spent that time not playing back in town, away from the people you are now rudely trying to hold back, who joined for their own reasons, not your approval. Just something to keep in mind o.o;

I'm not sure if the point is being seen. The ToS likes to be thrown around, but there's another part of it we have to be careful with. I will re-link the URL that is present a few pages back.

https://support.na.square-enix.com/f...la=1&kid=68216

・Expressions that unilaterally reject another person's opinion
・Expressions that compel a playing style

Key Points

It is prohibited to force personal views or disregard the opinions of others. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

It is prohibited to make statements such as:

"There's no way we can clear this with [suggestion]."
"Big pulls are normal here, so do it!"
"I don't care what you think, just follow my instructions."
"I'm not asking for your opinion."

Please note that Square Enix may issue a penalty in its discretion even if a report has not been filed but the act was found being conducted in public areas such as Say and Shout, search comments, Party Finder, and online video or streaming services.

■ Point 1
Respecting the opinions of others and expressing your own opinions in the form of a "suggestion" does not constitute a violation.

■ Point 2
Expressing your wishes in the form of a request, as in the following example, does not constitute a violation.

*When offering suggestions or making requests, it's important to include your reasoning. Making suggestions/requests without a clear understanding of the reason often leads the other person to misunderstand your intention. Additionally, making suggestions or requests does not necessarily mean that they must be accepted. When your suggestion/request is rejected, you cannot then criticize or blame others, pressure others or otherwise refuse to respect their opinion, or persistently repeat the same suggestion/request or otherwise attempt to impose your playstyle on others. If a report has been filed and the prohibited activity is confirmed, a penalty will be issued.

It is possible to be able to get what you want with mass pulls. The other party members just need to be convinced that your method is what they want to do. Forcefully pulling for them or being dismissive with no reasoning does not help them to see why they should care about it. Only stating that it benefits yourself solely is not likely to convince them either. If we cannot support our argument, is it truly the more efficient method we claim it to be for the situation?

I can't think of a single case where I've seen players find fault with a tank stating upfront that they are new and anxious about tanking an unfamiliar dungeon. Those aren't the players that anyone is talking about. Most groups will be more than happy for you to chain pull single packs if you're honest, and they'll probably work extra hard to support you.

The problem is when you go a little bit further up the Dunning-Kruger curve and encounter someone who talks like they're Halone's gift to tanking but then proceed to jank tank their way through the instance, making long pauses before pulls and then deciding mid-pull that they might want to grab another pack after everyone has offloaded their cooldowns.

The hint is in the term 'You Pull You Tank'. It's unambiguous what we're talking about here.

What players are objecting to is when a tank decides to deliberately let their teammates die just to prove a point about their status within the group. By definition, that is an expression that compels a playing style on the rest of your team. And it always, always comes out of egotism.

It's worthwhile making a couple of follow-up points, though, having spent the better part of the past 10 years tanking in this game. The primary determinant of whether you can clear a pull is your group's dps. It's usually not a mitigation or healing error unless someone is really clumsy, because the average tank has an absurd amount of cooldowns. If a pull lasts too long, however, then you're at risk of dying from attrition. If you're playing dps and you want to support a less experienced tank, just kill the packs faster and they'll have no survival issues. In some cases, if you know that they're going to struggle on a particular pull, just AoE LB it. Be proactive.

The second point is that it's really easy to influence the pace of a dungeon even if you're not a tank. The solution is to hit sprint and go on ahead until you're just at the pull threshold for the next pack without actually pulling it. It non-verbally signifies to the tank that they need to keep moving, and most tanks will only feel comfortable once they're back in front of you again, which will lead them to pull the next pack in the process. If they think its their idea, you'll never get into a clash of egos over it, and they probably will want to blitz through the next expert that they do once they see how absurdly fast it can go.

You don't need to utter a word. That's the beauty of it.

I can get behind what you are saying, Lyth. I also move a little ahead of the tank when they make the first pack pull to non-verbally request a bigger pull. Most will get the message and move forward since it is a healer saying they can do it. You are right that DPS are important too to make it possible.

The topic also states the tank role is not the pull role. I stated that is sometimes true. A DPS peeling a loose add from a healer to the tank is good. Accidental face pulls are worthy of forgiveness as long as it isn't repeated the same way. A party member forcefully pulling a second group of enemies with a new anxious tank is not. It's still preferable the tank does it so the enemies more easily stay in a tight kill pile for the DPS to nuke.

As for the true YPYT ego tanks, I do not like to deal with them either. The whole party gets hurt from their lack of any actions used at all. The other 2 party members in the background are typically innocent.

Just in case some are wondering, intentional misuse of Shirk and Rescue are also mentioned in the ToS as violations. It is just worded as forcing an incapacitate by either forced combat movement or bad use of enmity transfer. It would have to happen over and over as harassment to action of course if no words are used.

"YPYT" is just the tank not doing their job. And are probably slow; worthy of needing some help.
If you're in a level cap dungeon and you aren't comfortable with large pulls regardless of your role, please study your role. They can all be done without issue.

Leveling dungeons are another beast, mind you.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

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Putting aside that this isn't YPYT, this is such a slippery case-by-case slope. Because two players can have completely different opinions on big pulls vs. not big pulls and they say you can't force your play style on others. If the tank suggests small pulls and the dps suggest big pulls, if the tank refuses to pull more than they are not respecting the opinions of the dps. If the dps pulls more than they are not respecting the tank's opinions. This part of the ToS is extremely reliant on chat logs to determine what the case is. Things like that are not as black and white.

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Originally Posted by Tigore

It is possible to be able to get what you want with mass pulls. The other party members just need to be convinced that your method is what they want to do. Forcefully pulling for them or being dismissive with no reasoning does not help them to see why they should care about it. Only stating that it benefits yourself solely is not likely to convince them either. If we cannot support our argument, is it truly the more efficient method we claim it to be for the situation?

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See, what I don't get here is why the onus is solely on the 3 out of 4 party members to convince the remaining 1 (the tank) to follow majority preference while the tank otherwise has complete and tacit control over the whole party. Choosing not to full-pull should be considered just as active a decision as choosing to full pull.

That one person is holding their hand over the "continue normal functions" button, by no explicit right beyond being closest, does not make someone else's touching the button an act of encroachment or their refusing to press it while blocking others from the anything but active sabotage.

If the group wants to full pull, they don't have to first convince the tank. If they can pull things to a tank who can be kept up and put to decent use even when just doing the bare minimum of their responsibilities, then it's enough to determine what the majority preference is and follow it. It might not be the smoothest, but that's all that's owed.

-- someone whose 9 dungeons out of 10 are done on tank

...Why not just use the PF if you really wanna progress through things fast or just use the tank yourself on Lv90 dungeons? Even better, if you really want tank to pull more than a group in leveling dungeons, why not communicate it through chat? I'm all up for new tanks to learn how to tank (it's fun y'know, pulling two groups and slapping as a tank), but surprise-pushing a child who can't swim into a pond isn't a really good idea- and tbh, real toxic IMO.

Even a beginner's... whatever it is in english, also is official, says that DPS's role is to attack enemies which is targeting your tank, you aren't exactly supposed to pull an enemy, not just "tank is supposed to take hits".

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Originally Posted by nekomir

...Why not just use the PF if you really wanna progress through things fast

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Because one typically leaves the DF for PF only when doing that content in less typical ways that'd oblige that specification. Full pulls are the norm, not the exception.

It is an uphill battle when I read through the ToS for the group to get a mass pull. Though it is not perfect, it was probably the best the devs could think of when comparing to the other MMO game WoW. After all, our lead guy does like the game too from what I hear.

It was a common thing said in their forums that some players interested in trying out tanking quit due to DPS pulling. Not a word was even attempted from some DPS with them running forward the second they zone in. Some have even tried to pull the whole entire dungeon with a fresh geared tank . . . Increased rewards wasn't enough since players reasoned they are here to have fun rather than take the blame for other players' mistakes. Since Shurrikhan suggested doing something similar with silently pulling, it may not go over very well. Especially since some of the players are Warcraft refugees like me who have went through really extreme cases with nonlinear dungeons. You know, all 3 DPS pulling from Narnia, Pluto and Andromeda and it was still somehow the tank's "fault" the AoEs and provokes aren't 1000 yalms. It just might end up getting you guys in trouble as a result to forcefully pull. If not that, then a longer queue as another possible outcome. I certainly wouldn't want a repeat of history for this.

Aside from the rant of experience of how agitated we can get, they have put in options for high end raids and trials to mark for practice and completion. Maybe a few buttons for "Safe Pulls" and "Mass Pulls" for the normal queue? Maybe not perfect either, but it's the best I got so far as a thought. I wouldn't mind some form of improvements for the Halls of Novice. I'll have to check out what it looks like to accurately say more.

In the meantime, I have decided that it is not worth it to push too much on a tank to mass pull. We pretty much have to make the slow tank say something like, "Only impatient DPS want it! My way!" before they might get the action instead. Not likely to happen since they just have to say single pulls are arguably safer. I may mention on fc how my signals were not noticed, but I won't force the tank.

I understand Expert Roulettes are only double pulls that are easy to do, but here we are. Tanks are very often in need throughout the roulettes. You might be able to convince them for a full FC group, but that would mean the tank is still effectively out of the PuG pool.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Because one typically leaves the DF for PF only when doing that content in less typical ways that'd oblige that specification. Full pulls are the norm, not the exception.

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Big pulls are not the norm.. they are the speed runner players demands.. people do it and some dondon't..

Also if you look 7 posts above yours you can see that even SE agrees that big pulls are not the norm

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Heck SE dosnt want non-tanks to pull in dungeons so much they even removed our AoE provoke!! Ultimatum! Been gone since ShB

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Because one typically leaves the DF for PF only when doing that content in less typical ways that'd oblige that specification. Full pulls are the norm, not the exception.

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It isn't norm, it's more that you guys want it to be norm. In my DC, you usually get non-full pull tank as often as full pull tanks. (Except in 90 dungeons but hey, point still stands.)

Y'all have a bloody keyboard, and alphabets. you want tanks to do full pull all the time? use it, otherwise get off your high horse.

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

Big pulls are not the norm.. they are the speed runner players demands.. people do it and some dondon't..

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Across leveling every job on one or the other of my characters (a few each expansion on both) across the last three expansions, there were maybe a handful of runs in total in which we didn't at every opportunity pull to the wall if such was 3 packs or fewer. Compare that to literally hundreds of full-pull runs. A scant percent, and each time only because the healer or tank said they were, or was soon shown to be, new.

And endgame dungeons are easier. I've had maybe... 3... Expert Roulettes since Stormblood in which we pulled pack-by-pack when playing on DPS when their queues are short. Granted, smaller sample size there; for Expert Roulettes, I'm usually the tank, or the healer capable of keeping the dps up when the tank decides to throw a fit and we end up 3-manning.

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The emphasis of the quote was on the "so (just) do it!" If the devs honestly believed that pulling one pack at a time is the norm, that would be enough separation from reality to be a huge red flag.

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

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Lol. Lmao. Imagine defending pulling one pack at a time when it's objectively faster, easier on everyone's resources, and gives DPS players more dopamine.

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Originally Posted by Videra

Lol. Lmao. Imagine defending pulling one pack at a time when it's objectively faster, easier on everyone's resources, and gives DPS players more dopamine.

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There's the problem. You're trying to make it about your dopamine addiction.

Not everyone is there for the speed run.

Is it easier on resources? Depends on the skill of everyone in the party. Oh so much fun to pull big just to have the DPS using single target abilities so things are dying at the speed of mud.

It's cooperative content Try cooperating with the rest of the party. Try talking things over at the start.

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Originally Posted by nekomir

It isn't norm, it's more that you guys want it to be norm. In my DC, you usually get non-full pull tank as often as full pull tanks. (Except in 90 dungeons but hey, point still stands.)

Y'all have a bloody keyboard, and alphabets. you want tanks to do full pull all the time? use it, otherwise get off your high horse.

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That's nice. Your datacenter is also on JP. As this section is predominantly NA and EU players, it stands to reason we'll talk about our norms. And W2W pulls are very much the norm here. If you queued into a 100 Expert dungeons over the next five days on Aether, the overwhelming majority will see the tank pulling everything in sight. On the few occasions that doesn't happen, the healer or DPS are likely to do it for them.

What I want is for the tank to be useful. Small pulls do so little damage nowadays, you are little more than a gimped DPS if you refuse to wall pull. A Dragoon can do just as good a job tanking three months as a Warrior while dealing significantly higher damage to boot. Mobs simply don't deal enough damage to justify anything less than two packs. If you're 70+ and can't handle that. Don't tank.

What I find really sad with this topic is that it seems like no one cares about other players. Tanks who insist on YPYT no matter what don't care for other players. DPS who insist on doing big pulls regardless of how the tank feels don't care for other players. You just have a favored way of playing dungeons.

I have a solution though. Something really innovative that has worked really well for me in 99% of situations. It is called "socializing." If a tank doesn't make big pulls, I ask them in the party chat if they could try doing them. More often than not, they do. Sometimes, they say they're not feeling confident enough to do it. And that's fine. We'll take it slow. Sometimes, they don't answer. And well, it is what it is.

I'm not going to lose sleep because I didn't beat a Speedrun World Record any% for a leveling dungeon. I'm not going to open up a report and tell the GM "please ban this player they made the dungeon last 5 minutes longer than it should have." I do personally only ever do big pulls when I tank, but what if some players just don't want? It's not my job to police the way they play.

A healthy reminder that this is, in fact, an online video game. By participating in group content with completely strangers, you do implicitly agree to be exposed to playstyles that will not necessarily conform to yours.

@ ForteNightshade

Umm . . . it's not just new or anxious tanks. Even our OP agrees that the issue is not always black and white. Some tanks might downgrade to single pulls to accommodate for the other roles. We sometimes get "Cure bot" healers (that Free Cure trait) and / or single target DPS (because Alisaie does it and the animations look cooler, right?). I am kidding with the brackets.

Sometimes the tanks may very well want to mass pull too, but can't because a few other group members wouldn't be able to handle it. At the same time, I wouldn't want to just kick them from group since they may very well become great healers or DPS later on. Maybe talk to the group nicely if you want them to learn the ropes faster?

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Originally Posted by Tigore

@ ForteNightshade

Umm . . . it's not just new or anxious tanks. Even our OP agrees that the issue is not always black and white. Some tanks might downgrade to single pulls to accommodate for the other roles. We sometimes get "Cure bot" healers (that Free Cure trait) and / or single target DPS (because Alisaie does it and the animations look cooler, right?). I am kidding with the brackets.

Sometimes the tanks may very well want to mass pull too, but can't because a few other group members wouldn't be able to handle it. At the same time, I wouldn't want to just kick them from group since they may very well become great healers or DPS later on. Maybe talk to the group nicely if you want them to learn the ropes faster?

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Just to add the player could also be new to the dungeon itself, I personally like to see the dungeon I'm new to, which is great with the new Trusts but back when I started playing they didn't have that option and many time the DPS forced my group to speed run a dungeon I had never been I'm before.. I missed out on my first time in Castrum and Prea due to rushers, was before locked cutscenes.

One of the biggest ones that always stuck with me was in StB had just unlocked the Burn for the first time and it was current or maybe a few weeks old and a Redmage just mass pulled everything as we were doing it and at the end said that I sucked as a tank and my healer sucked because the Red died pulling everything 500 yalm ahead of us. There's no reason to rush new content or content when your told you have a new player.. otherwise just ask the tank an healer.