Patch 6.21 Notes

I will probably sound pessimist but I am so afraid of what changes they will do to Paladin in 6.3 just to "fit" in the whole burst thing.

Hopefully my fears are just misplaced

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Originally Posted by Jettinson

I will probably sound pessimist but I am so afraid of what changes they will do to Paladin in 6.3 just to "fit" in the whole burst thing.

Hopefully my fears are just misplaced

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If this entire expansion so far is anything to by, your fears are entirely justified.

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Originally Posted by Jettinson

I will probably sound pessimist but I am so afraid of what changes they will do to Paladin in 6.3 just to "fit" in the whole burst thing.

Hopefully my fears are just misplaced

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Same, it is really worrying to me as a paladin main. Wouldnt surprise me to see BLM get changed to fit buff windows too in the future.

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Originally Posted by Aexnidaral

Kind of a disappointing way to "fix" the issues players were having without actually substantively addressing the concerns players have around job balance.

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Glad it got nerved savages suck

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Originally Posted by Jettinson

I will probably sound pessimist but I am so afraid of what changes they will do to Paladin in 6.3 just to "fit" in the whole burst thing.

Hopefully my fears are just misplaced

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Seeing what SE did to Healers and SMN, I really doubt those fears are missplaced.
Not playing PLD myself, but get ready to loose what mechanical identity it has left in favour of matching up to the devs vision of its job Fantasy and an attempt at Balance.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

Such a flex. "Our team got gud." :D

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The post was also acknowledging that players would likewise get good after they had a similar amount of time to do the content.

At least SE has a team devoted to thoroughly testing Savage content before release to make certain that it can be cleared on release. Then there's Blizzard's "whack-a-mole" approach... (just release it then we'll start making changes after seeing what roadblocks the world first teams).

Either way, players like knowing why things went wrong, not just what went wrong. This time, they got a pretty direct answer.

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

The post was also acknowledging that players would likewise get good after they had a similar amount of time to do the content.

At least SE has a team devoted to thoroughly testing Savage content before release to make certain that it can be cleared on release. Then there's Blizzard's "whack-a-mole" approach... (just release it then we'll start making changes after seeing what roadblocks the world first teams).

Either way, players like knowing why things went wrong, not just what went wrong. This time, they got a pretty direct answer.

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I, and I'm sure many others, are still very curious to know what comp their testing team was using, but I don't reckon they'll ever reveal that kind of info. We'll just be left to wonder.

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Originally Posted by Iyrnthota

I, and I'm sure many others, are still very curious to know what comp their testing team was using, but I don't reckon they'll ever reveal that kind of info. We'll just be left to wonder.

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I've always gotten the impression they use a few different comps during testing so all jobs end up represented (but not all combinations of those jobs). I could be wrong, of course.

But they definitely aren't going to share that information. They don't want to feed player obsession with meta comps.

If players want to feed their own obsession, they can always go to FFLogs to see if there were any jobs not represented at all in week 1 clears, and which jobs were the most represented.

usually they own up to their own mistakes but passing the blame onto the players because of atrocious job balance resulting in mathmatically impossible dps checks for some comps is really really bizarre

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Originally Posted by Jojoya

I've always gotten the impression they use a few different comps during testing so all jobs end up represented (but not all combinations of those jobs). I could be wrong, of course.

But they definitely aren't going to share that information. They don't want to feed player obsession with meta comps.

If players want to feed their own obsession, they can always go to FFLogs to see if there were any jobs not represented at all in week 1 clears, and which jobs were the most represented.

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I dunno, the idea that they use a variety of different comps doens't jive with their statement about this tier.
They claim to have spent a long time figuring out this fight and using that to determine the check, which tells me they had the same comp throughout, like a typical static might.

If they managed to spend as much time as they're implying optimising their runs on multiple comps, then they might actually be god gamers

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Originally Posted by Iyrnthota

I dunno, the idea that they use a variety of different comps doens't jive with their statement about this tier.
They claim to have spent a long time figuring out this fight and using that to determine the check, which tells me they had the same comp throughout, like a typical static might.

If they managed to spend as much time as they're implying optimising their runs on multiple comps, then they might actually be god gamers

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They wouldn't be doing their jobs if they weren't thorough. It sounds like it's being assumed that there's only 8 people on this team. Maybe people need to stop using their favorite cliche about the small indie company because it's definitely affecting their thought process.

This update is beyond strange. They acknowledge (sorta) that job balance sucks but then are also applying bandaid fix on p8s. A bandaid already existed in form of just getting gear.

I am glad however they are finally acknowledging that making bosses giant and giving melees free uptime all the time has consequences on job balance. For me it does confirm however that job designers and raid designers are not talking to each other.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

They wouldn't be doing their jobs if they weren't thorough. It sounds like it's being assumed that there's only 8 people on this team. Maybe people need to stop using their favorite cliche about the small indie company because it's definitely affecting their thought process.

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Seeing how much job balance sucks, yea I think we can say they arent thorough enough.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

They wouldn't be doing their jobs if they weren't thorough. It sounds like it's being assumed that there's only 8 people on this team. Maybe people need to stop using their favorite cliche about the small indie company because it's definitely affecting their thought process.

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Like, I'm sure they do a very good job, but in this particular case their statements just sound completely at odds with the assumption that they tested all comps. The results seem to agree, with the tier being incredibly difficult for "non meta" comps to clear even when playing perfectly.

Obviously we'll never know, cause they'll never tell. So all of this is spectulation on all sides, but it doesn't come off as a great look.


All I'll say is you brought up the cliche, not me.
You know who isn't a small indie company? Amazon.
You know who fucks up all the time? Amazon.

https://i.imgflip.com/6t7m8g.jpg

Two truths of MMOs

1. Class balance is always a line drive to the pitchers crotch or way out in left field where no one is at.

2. Raid communties have a long established mindset of bring the best kick the rest.

After rereading their argument for the p8s nerf I came to a worrying conclusion. Their attitude really feels similar to post-Cata WoW's devs when their hubris was at it's peak. It rang hollow and just showcased underlying issues. I really hope i'm wrong. I would rather be pleasantly surprised than see history repeat itself. :/

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Originally Posted by Raoabolic

After rereading their argument for the p8s nerf I came to a worrying conclusion. Their attitude really feels similar to post-Cata WoW's devs when their hubris was at it's peak. It rang hollow and just showcased underlying issues. I really hope i'm wrong. I would rather be pleasantly surprised than see history repeat itself. :/

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It's more like... Gordias balance than anything.


But doomsayers will be doomsayers.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

It's more like... Gordias balance than anything.

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Which they admitted after the fact was terrible and said they'd never do it again. Oh wait. . .

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Which they admitted after the fact was terrible and said they'd never do it again. Oh wait. . .

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Yes, and hence the adjustments. Gordias wasn't nerfed until much later lol. The damage had already be done.

These are very different responses.

As i read this again. Im looking at it like this, on there statement "every job can clear and they are viable" If every job was viable then you didnt have to nerf the encounter.

Then when it was tested. Did the dps of the team play every dps for this encounter

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Originally Posted by Axxion

As i read this again. Im looking at it like this on there statement "every job can clear and they are viable" If every job was viable then you didnt have to nerf the encounter.

Then when it was tested. Did the dps of the team play every dps for this encounter

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Lately it seems like they want to push things out asap and test said things later. I mean, I get it. They are never going to foresee every possible outcome, but they seem to be handling various things recently like Blizzard has with WoW the last few years. Just shoving things out the door without proper testing and listening to feedback. It is slightly out of character for them, but I kinda figured we would get to this point eventually.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Lately it seems like they want to push things out asap and test said things later. I mean, I get it. They are never going to foresee every possible outcome, but they seem to be handling various things recently like Blizzard has with WoW the last few years. Just shoving things out the door without proper testing and listening to feedback. It is slightly out of character for them, but I kinda figured we would get to this point eventually.

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It's also happening after they gave themselves an extra two weeks per patch cycle as well as a week's delay specifically for savage. I wouldn't be surprised to see the time between new major patches increase yet again.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

It's also happening after they gave themselves an extra two weeks per patch cycle as well as a week's delay specifically for savage. I wouldn't be surprised to see the time between new major patches increase yet again.

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There was no week delay for savage in terms of the patch. Only the unlock. Everything was included in 6.2 for the savage fights. So no tuning or otherwise was done in that extra week.

Also, that was a community request.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Lately it seems like they want to push things out asap and test said things later. I mean, I get it. They are never going to foresee every possible outcome, but they seem to be handling various things recently like Blizzard has with WoW the last few years. Just shoving things out the door without proper testing and listening to feedback. It is slightly out of character for them, but I kinda figured we would get to this point eventually.

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The worst thing about it is everyone has access to detailed fight data, down to how much damage each action contributes to the damage output over thousands of fights. They could straight up calculate every single potency increase before implementing it and see how much it would change over a variety of situations. The data is there, the willingness to work with it evidently not.

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Originally Posted by Aikaal

What... are you talking about? Scholar is the best healer in the game right now. It is, by all rights, better in every aspect of the game over Sage.

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The kit fights itself. If you use Dissipation, you're locked out of all Fairy healing. If you Fey Union, having the fairy use anything else cancels it. If you use Seraph, you're locked out of Dissipation, Fey Blessing, and Fey Union. Seraph can also ghost skills and put them on cooldown.

If SCH dies with Dissipation and Aetherflow just being used, you come back with at least 50s without any AF stacks. Meaning Sacred Soil, Lustrate, Excog, and Indom are all unusable outside of the one Recitation cast for the next 50s. Fey Union gauge is also lost. You have to resummon your fairy quickly. You are essentially dead weight as a healer for those 50s.

If WHM/AST/SGE dies, what do you lose? WHM you lose the lilies, meaning you've lost only 2 heals and have everything else. AST you only lose your seals for your own card buffs.

SGE you lose access to Druochole (Lustrate equivalent), Kerachole (Sacred Soil equivalent), and Ixochole (Indom equivalent), and Taurochole (10% mitigation and 700 potency heal, no SCH equivalent). If you have Rhizomata (gives you a single stack of Addersgall) ready, you have a single use of any of those. How long are you waiting to use one of those normally? 20 seconds. TWENTY SECONDS.

SCH is the only healer that has to fight its own kit, and is actively punished by death worse than the other healers. These are issues we have had for many expansions now, issues that still need fixing.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

The kit fights itself. If you use Dissipation, you're locked out of all Fairy healing. If you Fey Union, having the fairy use anything else cancels it. If you use Seraph, you're locked out of Dissipation, Fey Blessing, and Fey Union. Seraph can also ghost skills and put them on cooldown.

If SCH dies with Dissipation and Aetherflow just being used, you come back with at least 50s without any AF stacks. Meaning Sacred Soil, Lustrate, Excog, and Indom are all unusable outside of the one Recitation cast for the next 50s. Fey Union gauge is also lost. You have to resummon your fairy quickly. You are essentially dead weight as a healer for those 50s.

If WHM/AST/SGE dies, what do you lose? WHM you lose the lilies, meaning you've lost only 2 heals and have everything else. AST you only lose your seals for your own card buffs.

SGE you lose access to Druochole (Lustrate equivalent), Kerachole (Sacred Soil equivalent), and Ixochole (Indom equivalent), and Taurochole (10% mitigation and 700 potency heal, no SCH equivalent). If you have Rhizomata (gives you a single stack of Addersgall) ready, you have a single use of any of those. How long are you waiting to use one of those normally? 20 seconds. TWENTY SECONDS.

SCH is the only healer that has to fight its own kit, and is actively punished by death worse than the other healers. These are issues we have had for many expansions now, issues that still need fixing.

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That's a long way of saying SCH takes skill to execute properly. It also helps when your teammates aren't going the wrong way and taking you down with them.

So, how staggering is the damage variance between

Group A: GNB/DRK/AST/SCH/MNK/NIN/DNC/BLM
Group B: PLD/WAR/WHM/SGE/DRG/BRD/MCH/RDM

No Samurai change reverts? I sleep.

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

That's a long way of saying SCH takes skill to execute properly. It also helps when your teammates aren't going the wrong way and taking you down with them.

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My issue with it is more that it's an outlier. WHM and AST used to both be a lot more difficult, closer to SCH's level. But while they've been simplified, SCH has not been. I'm not asking for braindead, but it does need changes. Such as using the fairy gauge for all healing actions, with the fairy's healing giving you small amounts of gauge (and each fairy skill giving you more). Dissipation sacrificing part of the gauge (probably half) to upgrade all healing from the SCH (maybe a DPS buff too, if they so wished). Fey Union making the fairy focus target a player for all Embrace usage for X seconds with an increased potency (think old Rouse). Perhaps Seraph becoming a permanent upgrade to the fairy (adjust heal/shield potency ratio as needed). Things like that, which fixes some issues while still keeping the micromanagement SCH is known for.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

The kit fights itself. If you use Dissipation, you're locked out of all Fairy healing. If you Fey Union, having the fairy use anything else cancels it. If you use Seraph, you're locked out of Dissipation, Fey Blessing, and Fey Union. Seraph can also ghost skills and put them on cooldown.

If SCH dies with Dissipation and Aetherflow just being used, you come back with at least 50s without any AF stacks. Meaning Sacred Soil, Lustrate, Excog, and Indom are all unusable outside of the one Recitation cast for the next 50s. Fey Union gauge is also lost. You have to resummon your fairy quickly. You are essentially dead weight as a healer for those 50s.

If WHM/AST/SGE dies, what do you lose? WHM you lose the lilies, meaning you've lost only 2 heals and have everything else. AST you only lose your seals for your own card buffs.

SGE you lose access to Druochole (Lustrate equivalent), Kerachole (Sacred Soil equivalent), and Ixochole (Indom equivalent), and Taurochole (10% mitigation and 700 potency heal, no SCH equivalent). If you have Rhizomata (gives you a single stack of Addersgall) ready, you have a single use of any of those. How long are you waiting to use one of those normally? 20 seconds. TWENTY SECONDS.

SCH is the only healer that has to fight its own kit, and is actively punished by death worse than the other healers. These are issues we have had for many expansions now, issues that still need fixing.

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SCH is the best healer, the only reason why people move from SCH to SGE is cuz doing one same thing SCH need to press 2 button , while SGE only one. This basically mean no matter how OP a class is, people just want to play something easy, and this is always true on FFXIV's player base.
Remember you are not suppose to die in a fight, do not assume what will happen when you die. Every highly optimized healer will end up with no resources, not just SCH, one DPS or one tank die will also ruin healer's optimization. And also, healer DPS also got screw up. Don't people always ask healer to DPS?!!!
To be honest, even one tank or one DPS do not use mitigation will ruin healer's optimization. This happen a lot especially in p8s, and when people die, people point the finger to healer right away

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Originally Posted by VictorSpoils

So, how staggering is the damage variance between

Group A: GNB/DRK/AST/SCH/MNK/NIN/DNC/BLM
Group B: PLD/WAR/WHM/SGE/DRG/BRD/MCH/RDM

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I'd replace the DRG with a RPR, but also you won't know how staggering the difference is since group B would've never made it past the phase 1 enrage and you would have no data to compare. Even if you replaced the bard with the reaper and get double melee you still wouldn't make it, let alone with 3 ranged dps, 2 of which are underperforming.

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Question.

What's their problem with people having accessibility?


For real. I'm asking because we USED to be able to plop waymarks down wherever in the middle of combat. Now we can't. Becauuuuse...? Is it because of the ability to save waymarks? Should that not be a thing that people might want to fix, since it'd be packaging a bug and calling it a feature?

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Because people ABUSED it to solve mechanics, just like they cheated now again..

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Originally Posted by Deveryn

That's a long way of saying SCH takes skill to execute properly. It also helps when your teammates aren't going the wrong way and taking you down with them.

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That's your point of view, other people might say that it isn't very intelligent design not to allow for scenarios that could arise for another players mistakes (as well as their own, of course). Some people could well find it frustrating instead of challenging to find the job design fighting them instead of smoothly working with them to allow for them to get up and back into action as quickly as possible as the other healers can do.

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Originally Posted by Kuroka

Because people ABUSED it to solve mechanics, just like they cheated now again..

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Okay, and? It was abused... and so we're going to do away with a function that helped more than it harmed? Okay then.

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Originally Posted by Saraide

Against the sworn enemy no sacrifice is too great or something.

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That's LITERALLY Ascian rethoric >:U

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Originally Posted by Midareyukki

Okay, and? It was abused... and so we're going to do away with a function that helped more than it harmed? Okay then.

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Against the sworn enemy no sacrifice is too great or something.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Lately it seems like they want to push things out asap and test said things later. I mean, I get it. They are never going to foresee every possible outcome, but they seem to be handling various things recently like Blizzard has with WoW the last few years. Just shoving things out the door without proper testing and listening to feedback. It is slightly out of character for them, but I kinda figured we would get to this point eventually.

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I can agree with this. Speaking for myself when i say this. I wanted them to focus on the quality over quantity of it. If it takes them longer to polish and refine things so be it. Haste make waste

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Lately it seems like they want to push things out asap and test said things later. I mean, I get it. They are never going to foresee every possible outcome, but they seem to be handling various things recently like Blizzard has with WoW the last few years. Just shoving things out the door without proper testing and listening to feedback. It is slightly out of character for them, but I kinda figured we would get to this point eventually.

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I think, if I'm reading them correctly, the reason for this nerf is sort of the opposite of pushing things out.

They spent extra time on this raid tier, so the testing team that clear the content had extra time to get used to and learn the mechanics.
They essentially balanced the DPS check assuming a few weeks of practice on the fight, rather than a up to a week prog level of DPS.

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However, as extra time was dedicated to testing this battle, the team's overall performance proved to be higher than usual

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Emphasis mine.

That's their explaination anyhow.

I can believe it, but I still think they did not properly test the all different jobs, because as others have pointed out, even a perfect/near perfect run with a "non-meta" comp would find it extremely difficult, if not impossible to clear. Particularly with bad damage variance.

I'm inclined to believe that they did in fact balance the check based on extra practice with the fight that the testing team had that we would not, but I believe they did all this extra practice on a pretty "meta" comp. Likely no PLD/MCH for example.
To me it's the only thing that makes sense for them allegedly spending so much extra time testing, but still managing to completely miss the job imbalance.