SGE was designed to be the "dpsing healer" but sadly failed at it.

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I mean SGE is drowning in so many free heals that you honestly could do basically any content with no kardia

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It's not even the free heals, it's the fact that bosses hit tanks like wet noodles. Sometimes I forget Kardia in Savage, realize halfway through the fight when the tank is dipping a bit low, switch it on and pop Soteria and still don't need to go near any single target heals.

Kardia itself is extremely strong. It can easily reach up to about half a million tank healing on either part 1 or 2 of P4S for me. That's about 37 Druochole or just over 11 minutes worth of Addersgall generation. The reason it's not relevant is tanks just don't take real damage. I barely even need Haima this tier. Boss autos tickle.

Pretty much as above. Go back a few expansions and maintaining good regen uptime was the way to go. Now it’s a waste of a GCD more often than not =/

Bosses spend too much time casting and don’t hit hard enough on the occasions when they aren’t.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

It's not even the free heals, it's the fact that bosses hit tanks like wet noodles. Sometimes I forget Kardia in Savage, realize halfway through the fight when the tank is dipping a bit low, switch it on and pop Soteria and still don't need to go near any single target heals.

Kardia itself is extremely strong. It can easily reach up to about half a million tank healing on either part 1 or 2 of P4S for me. That's about 37 Druochole or just over 11 minutes worth of Addersgall generation. The reason it's not relevant is tanks just don't take real damage. I barely even need Haima this tier. Boss autos tickle.

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I constantly run into mana issues on SGE because I forget to fire off useless Druocholes so as not to cap Addersgall and get back that MP.

Really they could have just given us a trait that increases MP regeneration while Adders is full. Firing off overheal Druo's for mana in faceroll content is hardly engaging gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

Pretty much as above. Go back a few expansions and maintaining good regen uptime was the way to go. Now it’s a waste of a GCD more often than not =/

Bosses spend too much time casting and don’t hit hard enough on the occasions when they aren’t.

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I remember almost surviving the 30 debuff after the tankbuster on Zodiark with just my Holmgang because of how much casting he does. I think we need more Ultima Weapon unreals where the boss just continuously Autos you and you really notice the damage you are taking as a tank.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Really they could have just given us a trait that increases MP regeneration while Adders is full. Firing off overheal Druo's for mana in faceroll content is hardly engaging gameplay.

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So remove the one thing Sage has to pay attention to..?

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

So remove the one thing Sage has to pay attention to..?

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If we don't do it, SE will eventually. I'm surprised they haven't just removed MP at this point considering how superficial a resource it even is.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

So remove the one thing Sage has to pay attention to..?

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Paying attention on a healer? That's probably an oversight...

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

So remove the one thing Sage has to pay attention to..?

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Are we seriously suggesting a mana management system of throwing out random overheal Druochole's every so often is good design because you have to pay attention to it? Keep in mind you only have to "pay attention" in faceroll content where you have nothing to heal and even if you run out of mana there ...it doesn't matter because it's faceroll content.

I'll never understand how the forums cling to rubbish design the devs give us simply because it exists. No, get rid of it and make it passive. Stop using clunky, bad game design to pretend you're a good player handling a skill check.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Are we seriously suggesting a mana management system of throwing out random overheal Druochole's every so often is good design because you have to pay attention to it? Keep in mind you only have to "pay attention" in faceroll content where you have nothing to heal and even if you run out of mana there ...it doesn't matter because it's faceroll content.

I'll never understand how the forums cling to rubbish design the devs give us simply because it exists. No, get rid of it and make it passive. Stop using clunky, bad game design to pretend you're a good player handling a skill check.

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Because your solution is to take the slightest bit of thought and attention that goes into the gameplay before suggesting anything of substance to replace it. What the heck does SGE have except remembering not to overcap on addersgall forever? AST has cards, SCH has ED and a semblance of heal-skill priority, WHM want to have afflatus misery for party bursts. What bare minimum does SGE have without a little bit of MP management? Prioritizing an abundant resource is barely that.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Because your solution is to take the slightest bit of thought and attention that goes into the gameplay before suggesting anything of substance to replace it. What the heck does SGE have except remembering not to overcap on addersgall forever? AST has cards, SCH has ED and a semblance of heal-skill priority, WHM want to have afflatus misery for party bursts. What bare minimum does SGE have without a little bit of MP management? Prioritizing an abundant resource is barely that.

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• AST Cards provide a positive effect on the party through buffs (and more importantly mana regen), there's a reason they should be used on CD.
• ED can at least be dumped for 100 pot a pop if the Aetherflow CD is almost up, positive effect
• Missery is now DPS neutral, there's no downside to using them.
• Addersgall (Durochloe) is solely used for healing, the other stuff has CD's attached to them. If you're in faceroll content you're going to cap pretty easily.

Tell me which one is the outlier here. It's pretty simple.

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Because your solution is to take the slightest bit of thought and attention that goes into the gameplay before suggesting anything of substance to replace it.

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You're just kidding yourself if you think there's real thought and attention going into spending Adders for mana. Like I said, it only matters in faceroll content where you don't need to heal and running low on mana in faceroll content is a non-factor. It's just a minor annoyance you try to mitigate that you'll practically never wipe a fight over if you mess it up. It doesn't make you a good player or make the job more interesting.

The forums are full of discussion about how to make healers, SGE included, more engaging. That's a given. Your argument is basically that we aren't allowed to look at QoL adjustments and smoothing the gameplay until they've fixed the class, which in my opinion is nonsense. I don't need to present a perfect solution to make Sage gameplay exciting before I can suggest a simple tweak to a clunky part of the design.

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

• AST Cards provide a positive effect on the party through buffs, there's a reason they should be used on CD.
• ED can at least be dumped for 100 pot a pop if the Aetherflow CD is almost up, positive effect
• Missery is now DPS neutral, there's no downside to using them.
• Addersgall (Durochloe) is solely used for healing, the other stuff has CD's attached to them. If you're in faceroll content you're going to cap pretty easily.

Tell me which one is the outlier here. It's pretty simple.

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Sage doesn't play very different from Scholar during trash pulls. And I personally think it's worse having abilities that work like ED than not having anything at all.

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Originally Posted by Katoar

Sage doesn't play very different from Scholar during trash pulls. And I personally think it's worse having abilities that work like ED than not having anything at all.

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SGE has the benefit of doing everything a SCH can without the SCH needs to push the fairy buttons independently. SGE has abilities that heal and buff all at once while SCH has to do it all manually.

That moment when you realise that the purest healers in WoW; holy priests, have a more engaging damage rotation than the dps healer :tm: in FF.
Sage failed at what it was set out to be. Catastrophically so. It's only saving grace is that it has cool animations and sound effects. But beyond that, it's a carbon copy of existing healers.

I had no idea what I signed up for when SGE was announced/released. I thought they'd have caster rotations like BLM or skill combos for damage like physical DPS but... nope. It's just pretty much as you said. Still had some fun with it and it's useful to have a healer class pocketed but whew...

After playing all the healers a lot for all content (Fate farming, Savage raiding, Alliance/Normal/Trial roulettes), the big thing i want for SGE:

1. A GNB DPS rotation that rewards Adder’s Sting. I think the Adder’s Sting should work for both Toxikon and Phlegma. So you choose between more damage at melee range or less damage for more mobility (so you don’t lose uptime).

I’m a SCH main, but I feel that the SGE SHOULD have a DPS rotation.

2. A lot more use out of the Kardia mechanic. It feels pretty insignificant and I prefer the fairy and Fey Union so much more over it. It feels a lot more comparable to a poor man’s mixture of Beacon of Light and Glimmer of Light.

Again I’m a SCH main (aesthetics and playstyle feels great to me over other healers), but I really hate how SGE is just a simplified SCH. It really should be more DPS focus as It’s the most easily accessible endgame healer for DPS mains.

sge is a decent job does good healing and dps takes a little getting used to but having leveled it to 90 and equiped it and melded it i like this job.

idk why people think slow clunky fairy is better than kardia. Tbh I barely just found out yesterday that dot dosis is also doing hot not only in one. I kardia myself when I was messing with old stuff something I never do as i had that dance habit since sage release to kardia tank I out of bordom and was shock at how much hot it dot dosis do so its really doing more than fairies slow embrace.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

idk why people think slow clunky fairy is better than kardia. Tbh I barely just found out yesterday that dot dosis is also doing hot not only in one. I kardia myself when I was messing with old stuff something I never do as i had that dance habit since sage release to kardia tank I out of bordom and was shock at how much hot it dot dosis do so its really doing more than fairies slow embrace.

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You don't waste weaves applying Kardia with the fairy. And the fairy will heal even if you're casting heals.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

Tbh I barely just found out yesterday that dot dosis is also doing hot not only in one. I kardia myself when I was messing with old stuff something I never do as i had that dance habit since sage release to kardia tank I out of bordom and was shock at how much hot it dot dosis do so its really doing more than fairies slow embrace.

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Eukrasian Dosis isn't a HoT, it's always been on the initial application. I just tested it on my dummy. I don't know where you were getting that from.

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Originally Posted by Bole

Sage isn’t a healer that DPSes to heal. It’s a healer that heals and DPSes simultaneously. The others do as well, they just have to weave the heal (or in SCH’s case just let the fairy embrace). It’s just a recolored scholar, and feels uninspired, just like the icon for Kerachole.

I wish it were actually designed like a healer that actually DPSed to heal. Trick attack would’ve buffed heals, maybe Kardia could be spread to AoE heal.

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That's PLD PvP skill effect "sacred claim" from Confiteor. Heals anyone who hits that target marked by the skill effect. :P

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Originally Posted by ThorneDynasty

Because your solution is to take the slightest bit of thought and attention that goes into the gameplay before suggesting anything of substance to replace it. What the heck does SGE have except remembering not to overcap on addersgall forever? AST has cards, SCH has ED and a semblance of heal-skill priority, WHM want to have afflatus misery for party bursts. What bare minimum does SGE have without a little bit of MP management? Prioritizing an abundant resource is barely that.

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When that "slightest bit of thought and attention" amounts to pointless overheal that very rarely impacts your Dosis spam, it isn't worth keeping. I've dipped as low as 4k in P3S and still recovered without ever having to stop spamming DPS. And this is with only a 630 piety set. So I'm running just slightly above parse BiS and MP isn't a problem.

This is the same argument people love to make about TBN. "It's an optimization tool!" Except it hardly has any real impact and can cause issues like in P2S where your co-tank can actually grief you without even realizing it. We shouldn't be keeping clunky and/or downright bad game design simply because there's nothing else. I'll take functionality over pointlessly throwing out a Druochole or Rhizomata on CD just for MP. Just like I'd scrap the whole TBN breaking concept. Instead of clinging to either, maybe if we kept badgering SE for their bad design, then focus on something decent. But that's wishful thinking.

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

So dev team answer for people asking for more dps option was SGE with its Kardia mechanic, providing a heal each time you execute a dps spell.

But realistically, SGE play the same as every healer.
- Dosis spam
- 30s refresh DoT
- 1 Aoe
- Plegma, which acutally is Assize on GCD

That's it.

Toxicon is your Ruin II equivalent with a gauge you don't want to build because it makes you loose DPS.
Pneuma is a healing action first, kinda like macrocosm.

So...

I'm asking dev team what are they going to do with SGE.
Its designed to be something it's not.

I want to see more Eucrasia and dps option.
It's supposed to be the offensive healer (from their point of view of course).

Dosis = Glare = Malefic = Broil
E.Dosis = Dia = Combust = Biolysis
Dykrasia = Holy = Gravity = Art of War

Then each have their own damaging ressource with differencies (these aren't exactly classed as pure equivalent)

Phlegma - Assize - Earthly Star - Energy Drain
Pneuma - Afflatus Misery - Macrocomos
Toxicon - Lord of Crown - Ruin II

SGE doesn't have more damaging option than the others.

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I was kinda disappointed by that indeed.

Kardia is just a better version of Regen, but worse version of Embrace. And the concept of heal through damage is kind of skewed... because it's not tied to the damage itself, but the hits.

Addersting is (mostly) an irrelevant resource on raid bosses... Too bad for a cool concept that even has a gauge of its own.

I also kind of hate the designation of both SGE and SCH as "shield healers"... when the actual bulk of their heals are direct heals.

I think SGE could use a dps combo (like what hte melee classes have) with each successive skill in the combo boosting not only damage but the amount healing given by kardia. This would probably help make it a little more like a dps healer. Addersting should just be removed and toxicon turned into a dps combo skill.
Tbh, I can't think of a whole lot for SGE since it's in pretty good spot atm compared to other classes.

Saying that Kardia heals when the Sage is ''doing damage'' is like saying that the fairy heals whenever the scholar is ''doing damage''. Both are true. But it's not a selling point. It's not an inherent advantage over the fairy. It's just a requirement that the fairy doesn't have. It means that you're not healing through Kardia whenever you're not ''doing damage'' And ''doing damage'' as Sage isn't different from scholar anyway. You cast phlegma instead of energy drain, cast dosis instead of broil, and you cast eukrasian dosis instead of biolysis. They are identical in use, and nearly identical in potency.
Again, there is no inherent advantage or unique synergy here.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

Saying that Kardia heals when the Sage is ''doing damage'' is like saying that the fairy heals whenever the scholar is ''doing damage''. Both are true. But it's not a selling point. It's not an inherent advantage over the fairy. It's just a requirement that the fairy doesn't have. It means that you're not healing through Kardia whenever you're not ''doing damage'' And ''doing damage'' as Sage isn't different from scholar anyway. You cast phlegma instead of energy drain, cast dosis instead of broil, and you cast eukrasian dosis instead of biolysis. They are identical in use, and nearly identical in potency.
Again, there is no inherent advantage or unique synergy here.

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Expect that the fairy can decide to not use the ability you queue of the next 2 seconds because it’s already casting. Really fun if you try to optimize on seconds and the fairy is always random and think “rather single target heal the tank then use seraphic” and then dies the dps because he misses the 1000 hp shield. We had that in dsr and it isn’t fun losing 13 minutes until double dragons because the ai has a brain fart.

I'm not talking about the fairy's AI. I'm dismantling the ''healing through damage'' argument.

I really wish that we had more ways to generate Addersting with SGE. It really sucks that the only way we can can only obtain those stupid Addersting stacks is by casting one... only ONE, GCD Heal ability. Can this not be expanded? I want to cast Toxikon more!!! I also wouldn't mind SGE's Limit Break ability to come over from PvP.

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

I'm not talking about the fairy's AI. I'm dismantling the ''healing through damage'' argument.

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True about that. But what I mean in my post is that sage effectively has no delay in his dmg reduction abilities were in comparison scholar is at the mercy of smooth brain ai.

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Originally Posted by currentlemon

I really wish that we had more ways to generate Addersting with SGE. It really sucks that the only way we can can only obtain those stupid Addersting stacks is by casting one... only ONE, GCD Heal ability. Can this not be expanded? I want to cast Toxikon more!!! I also wouldn't mind SGE's Limit Break ability to come over from PvP.

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I personally think that letting Rhizomata grant a stack of addersting would be a good start

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Originally Posted by GoatOfWar

I personally think that letting Rhizomata grant a stack of addersting would be a good start

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I'd thought of that too, but many others here claim that would be too strong. If that spell would grant addersting, it would be a flat out DPS gain for SGE.

I want SGE to gain addersting when they cast Eukrasian Prognosis on everyone. That way, when raid wide damage occurs, SGE will gain three addersting stacks and it will be DPS neutral. I might be missing something here because I don't play SGE anymore, but at least SGE will have more opportunities to use Toxikron more and it'll reward the SGE for healing. Something that I advocate.

I also wouldn't mind gaining addersting through Haima and Panhaima. Again, it would be a bit too strong since it'll be a dps gain, but it is something to consider.

It def is a welcomed healer in high end raiding. Thats for sure.

So whatever kit they got; its working better compared to the other 3.

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Originally Posted by Gember

It def is a welcomed healer in high end raiding. Thats for sure.

So whatever kit they got; its working better compared to the other 3.

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I mean SGE’s biggest problem is that it pretty much offers nothing that SCH can’t do better and even ignoring SCH just being better SGE if more clunky it’s kinda disheartening that a new healer after 6 years is basically just SCH2.0 while also having its “core mechanic” basically just be a targeted embrace

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Originally Posted by Supersnow845

I mean SGE’s biggest problem is that it pretty much offers nothing that SCH can’t do better and even ignoring SCH just being better SGE if more clunky it’s kinda disheartening that a new healer after 6 years is basically just SCH2.0 while also having its “core mechanic” basically just be a targeted embrace

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Most of SGE's abilities do two things at once. Heal + mitigation, Heal + regen, etc etc.
SCH has to do those things individually outside of the single ability Sacred Soil

SGE has most of all the tools a SCH has with less micromanagement.

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Originally Posted by Gember

It def is a welcomed healer in high end raiding. Thats for sure.

So whatever kit they got; its working better compared to the other 3.

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*Nervously looking at WHM/SGE healing comps in Dragonsong*

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

Most of SGE's abilities do two things at once. Heal + mitigation, Heal + regen, etc etc.
SCH has to do those things individually outside of the single ability Sacred Soil

SGE has most of all the tools a SCH has with less micromanagement.

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Yeah that’s what I mean, SGE does 95% of what SCH can do with half the effort, but if you do put in the whole 9 yards SCH beats it on just about every metric except MP economy

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Originally Posted by Azuri

*Nervously looking at WHM/SGE healing comps in Dragonsong*

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Yeah whm and sage is call inferior to ast and sch but ironic i see those 2 more than ast and sch. heck i rarely see ast and its still in a good place with its kit.. but if so called inferior jobs are seen more hmm maybe they arent inferior.

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Originally Posted by IceBlueNinja

Yeah whm and sage is call inferior to ast and sch but ironic i see those 2 more than ast and sch. heck i rarely see ast and its still in a good place with its kit.. but if so called inferior jobs are seen more hmm maybe they arent inferior.

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As 'superior' as AST is, it's just an awful job to play IMO. You're forced to dogpile so much stuff into 2 minute burst windows and even then it still manages to feel massively unsatisfying somehow. Whilst if your the sort of person who picks a single job for all aspects of the game, it's just about the worst job possible.

Sage still has the illusion of being fresh, WHM is just WHM.

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Originally Posted by Sebazy

As 'superior' as AST is, it's just an awful job to play IMO. You're forced to dogpile so much stuff into 2 minute burst windows and even then it still manages to feel massively unsatisfying somehow. Whilst if your the sort of person who picks a single job for all aspects of the game, it's just about the worst job possible.

Sage still has the illusion of being fresh, WHM is just WHM.

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It’s strange SCH still somehow through all the changes it gets every time still managed to come out of this the best designed healer in the current landscape and it isn’t even close