It's clear SE doesn't care and Samurai will not be reverted in 6.2

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Originally Posted by Ransu

The APM without kaiten is nearly identical and the new rotation replaced kaiten with gyoten. Nothing changed in terms of APM, but everything changed in terms of interesting game design. Kenki is a pointless resource now.

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This does not seem right. You had to waste time Kaitening in front of every iaijutsu, and you have to use up kenki for Shinten. Calling kenki a pointless resource is a gross exaggeration.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

I do believe that the damage is supposed to be roughly the same. Not having to do Kaiten also means being able to do more Shinten, and that keeps me busy. When I played SAM after the changes, I had heard about all the backlash and feared what the job had become. But my personal testing found that the change feels quite good. I know that people disagree, but the important question is whether people disagree whether because the change is bad, or because they don't want to change to a new play style. Imagine how I feel then, as a MNK for nearly a decade, when greased lightning was removed, and then MNK was changed to using Master's Gauge. Of course there are MNKs who hate what the job is like now, I'm simply not one of them. So my advice to SAM mains is this: don't force yourselves to play SAM if you just cannot agree to the changes. But if you're going to critique it, you're also going to have to accept that people might like the change in spite of what you think.

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The change is bad, it's an objective fact. No more synergy with four classes that buff crit (as well as a loss of DPS for them), as well as SAM initially losing 3% of its overall DPS after 6.1. The changes were not well thought out and rushed; was proven with the 6.11 band-aid changes that were in regards to a meme rotation in Yukikaze > Hagakure > Shinten spam doing similar numbers to the devs' projections in 6.1. I don't know how long you've played the class, but if you cannot notice the awkward pauses in your rotation where Kaiten used to be in between where Shinten is spammed, then it shows you aren't experienced on SAM (aka your personal testing amounts from little to nothing). The class does not feel good; your being a MNK main lends little credence to your opinion, sorry to say.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

I do believe that the damage is supposed to be roughly the same. Not having to do Kaiten also means being able to do more Shinten, and that keeps me busy. When I played SAM after the changes, I had heard about all the backlash and feared what the job had become. But my personal testing found that the change feels quite good. I know that people disagree, but the important question is whether people disagree whether because the change is bad, or because they don't want to change to a new play style. Imagine how I feel then, as a MNK for nearly a decade, when greased lightning was removed, and then MNK was changed to using Master's Gauge. Of course there are MNKs who hate what the job is like now, I'm simply not one of them. So my advice to SAM mains is this: don't force yourselves to play SAM if you just cannot agree to the changes. But if you're going to critique it, you're also going to have to accept that people might like the change in spite of what you think.

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I've played this job for years now, why should I be the one moving on because SE is trying to (supposedly) make it more appealing to others at the expense of a huge chunk of long term SAM mains? It's a philosophy I just cannot agree with.
I went ahead and tried these changes with an open mind, but ended up disliking everything about it. The thing is, we didn't really have to adapt to a new playstyle, it's literally the same thing except with resource management massively dumbed down, numbers that don't feel as good, and less synergy with other jobs. Yeah Shinten keeps busy, but I was happier when I didn't have to mash the same button and had to manage Kenki a little bit. That kinda depth that makes you feel like there's more to a job than crude Shinten spam lol, its a side of SAM I used to like they simply took away. So I feel it's right to go and voice my discontent in hope for a swift revert in this case.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

This does not seem right. You had to waste time Kaitening in front of every iaijutsu, and you have to use up kenki for Shinten. Calling kenki a pointless resource is a gross exaggeration.

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Are you insinuating the APM is down just because an oGCD doesn't have to be used before specific GCD skills? You "waste time" shinten-ing before any other GCD the same as you'd do for kaiten only now you don't have to think about saving resources for more intelligent application, you just fire and forget.

I don't know why it "doesn't seem right." There's extra kenki from what would have gone to kaiten that still needs spending so of course apm would remain similar.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

This does not seem right. You had to waste time Kaitening in front of every iaijutsu, and you have to use up kenki for Shinten. Calling kenki a pointless resource is a gross exaggeration.

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Gauges should be a way to implement unique gameplay to each job that goes beyond following the fixed rotation or cooldown priority.

For SAM, Kaiten was a reward for proper gauge balance. "Don't keep too much, and also don't be empty at the wrong time." It's something that became almost automatic and subconscious with practice, but satisfying nevertheless. The punishment for not managing the Kenki gauge properly was heavily reduced potency on your most powerful skills. Psychologically this trained you to be more conscious of button mashing habits. Also in situations where you had a little extra gauge, it could still be good to save it for a couple seconds until everyone's group buffs come off cooldown. As a reward for your mental discipline and skillful balance, you gain more damage.

Now, every Kaiten you would have used is 4/5ths of a Shinten or x2 Gyoten. Straight oGCD damage ability usage has been pushed beyond absurd levels. Before 6.1, the amount of Shinten mashing had already reached extremely high levels. If we go back in time to Shadowbringers, one of the objectives of the Hagakure nerf was to bring oGCD spam down to a reasonable amount and solidify Midare as the primary 3 Sen spender.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

the important question is whether people disagree whether because the change is bad, or because they don't want to change to a new play style.

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Skills were removed or nerfed, only to have the more mundane skills buffed and spammed more often. There's absolutely nothing new here. It feels like we're all the way back to Stormblood's Hagakure meta + Skillspeed meld levels of spam, but without the constant balancing act to keep us awake. If anything, the gameplay is a more degenerated version of something that is already 5 years outdated. The changes aren't just subjectively offensive, they are objectively, demonstrably unhealthy for SAM's identity.

So no, it's not an exaggeration in any sense of the word. Nuance is gone. Kenki is now just Shinten juice. You empty the gauge without a second thought because punishment for spamming has been eliminated. I would even say that you get punished for not hammering the Shinten button in most situations; The value of certain group buffs has been nullified, Iaijutsu damage has been flattened, and you can easily overcap via your next Ikishoten if you don't.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

I know that people disagree, but the important question is whether people disagree whether because the change is bad, or because they don't want to change to a new play style.

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Having played SAM since launch I and many others have adjusted to new rotations with each expansion as the kit was expansed upon. Kaiten for the vast majority of players was a huge part of what made SAM fun and made the job fantasy feel just right. It's not that we "don't want to change to a new play style", it's that we aren't having fun with the new play style. When you go from fun to not fun then the question becomes "why am I playing SAM" and if you can't find another job to have fun with you will ask "why am I even playing at all?"

Objectively speaking, is SAM fine? Sure. It does slightly less damage now and on paper it's a perfectly functional job.

Does that make it fun? No. What we had was fun and what we had is what the vast majority preferred.

Let's say for argument sake you have 75% of the SAM player base that loved playing SAM in 6.08 and before. Let's say then there's 25% who are OK with it but want it to change in the ways it was changed in 6.1 Now lets say after the change 50% of the 75% just drop the job and the number of players playing the job simply never recover. Is it safe to say at that point the change was bad? I'd say so.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

I do believe that the damage is supposed to be roughly the same. Not having to do Kaiten also means being able to do more Shinten, and that keeps me busy. When I played SAM after the changes, I had heard about all the backlash and feared what the job had become. But my personal testing found that the change feels quite good. I know that people disagree, but the important question is whether people disagree whether because the change is bad, or because they don't want to change to a new play style. Imagine how I feel then, as a MNK for nearly a decade, when greased lightning was removed, and then MNK was changed to using Master's Gauge. Of course there are MNKs who hate what the job is like now, I'm simply not one of them. So my advice to SAM mains is this: don't force yourselves to play SAM if you just cannot agree to the changes. But if you're going to critique it, you're also going to have to accept that people might like the change in spite of what you think.

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The damage is considerably nerfed, it also revived the playstyle that completely goes against SAM's core design to the point that when it showed up back in Stormblood they nerfed it out of existence: where outside of every 1 minute for your dot and 2 minutes for your burst window all sen is best consumed by Hagakure to turn into Kenki for Shinten spam. Which is why they removed Hagakure in the first place back in Shadowbringers, which got returned in a nerfed form because as it turns out when you design a class around something removing that something causes tremendous damage.

In this case the change is bad, really bad, it completely goes against core class design and tears apart how the class is conceptually supposed to function.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

I do believe that the damage is supposed to be roughly the same. Not having to do Kaiten also means being able to do more Shinten, and that keeps me busy. When I played SAM after the changes, I had heard about all the backlash and feared what the job had become. But my personal testing found that the change feels quite good. I know that people disagree, but the important question is whether people disagree whether because the change is bad, or because they don't want to change to a new play style. Imagine how I feel then, as a MNK for nearly a decade, when greased lightning was removed, and then MNK was changed to using Master's Gauge. Of course there are MNKs who hate what the job is like now, I'm simply not one of them. So my advice to SAM mains is this: don't force yourselves to play SAM if you just cannot agree to the changes. But if you're going to critique it, you're also going to have to accept that people might like the change in spite of what you think.

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Another person telling us to get over it and take what we've been given? Why? Because similar things happened to MNK? A lot people didn't like the changes to MNK, sure, but here's the difference: one was an overhaul, the other was like messing up a jenga tower.

Monk got hit with the streamline plan while SAM they just so slightly plucked a piece out from under it and expected it to be exactly the way to go when in reality the whole thing suddenly falls apart because of it.

I'm not gonna go into all the reasons why this is--while valid--a bad take overall assessing the job in question. Plenty of others are already saying why and to be the 5th person saying so would just be redundant.

I'm not a Monk main either, I only leveled it because it shared gear with SAM, so my enjoyment of it throughout the iterations is nearly indifferent, despite the jarring difference when something changed. You and everyone who loved previous versions have my condolences, and if you all really preferred one of those, I hope you all tried fighting for it as much as we SAMs are trying to fight for ours.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

...But if you're going to critique it, you're also going to have to accept that people might like the change in spite of what you think.

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Essentially these changes are for people who like...

• Hamburgers without the burger
• Cars without wheels
• Spaghetti without the Spaghetti sauce
• Sushi without rice or fish
• Beach without sand
• Fried Rice without MSG
• Pizza with just the dough, nothing else
• Skyscrapers without elevators
• Playing FFXIV with a broken monitor
• Raiding party without that 1 suicidal greeder
• Rollercoaster without the Coaster
• Bed sheets with turds on it

Flavorless, Worse, Settling for a lesser product. There will always be people who like horrible changes.

Example: Shinten spam is somehow more busy with Kaiten Removal. Yet Kaiten according to " your own words " is 1 button to much to keep you busy?..." contradiction" ...

There will be company simps even when they produce subpar experiences vs what we used to have. There will be others actively going to the forum with outrageous takes to bait frustrated people, possibly aiming to derail the thread topic. What's new.

My advice to your advice, in spite of players like yourself who likes the changes? And you're free to like anything, if there is a large amount of critique? It is a sign that a company messed up. Square as a company is not immune to Flaws. Thus, neither is FFXIV. Hence, expect critique on bad changes.

If you have doubt there was any backlash on the negative Samurai changes? " Click Here " and indulge in some,... critique

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

But if you're going to critique it, you're also going to have to accept that people might like the change in spite of what you think.

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even those who do not mind the Kaiten Removal agree that Kenki now is (mostly) just there for Shinten and cannot be utilized to boost (for example) Iaijutsu Damage^^

I have the feeling that Devs also shifted the Priority of Damage Output from concentrating to the heavy hitting Abilities to just tune the Heavy Hitter down a bit but therefor make the Filler Skills more spammy.. which I don't think it's a Good direction if that replaces the past depth of the Job..

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

So my advice to SAM mains is this: don't force yourselves to play SAM if you just cannot agree to the changes. But if you're going to critique it, you're also going to have to accept that people might like the change in spite of what you think.

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You cannot design a game like that. You can't just build a job, develop a fanbase who love the identity and gameplay it offers, then randomly take a dump on them and toss them out the window on a whim. Telling SAM mains to stop playing their job if they don't like the random changes is crazy.

Peoples preferences vary. Someone out there is going to like almost any change you can think of. That's besides the point, because you could make any random tweak you liked and someone would praise it. It's not an indicator of good design.
There are about 20 jobs, which means they can and should offer a variety of different playstyles for each player. They don't need to alter the core identity or target audience. It literally doesn't matter if you, as an individual player like it. It matters what the overall SAM fans like. Because that's who you should design each job for. Create 20 individual playstyles, then fine tune each to be the best experience for that specific playerbase.

In this ideal design, everyone can find those few jobs that match their preferences and engage with them fully and love them. However, what the developers are trying to do is create a game where everyone can play nearly all of the jobs, which results in all of them being playable in a lukewarm way, but none of them being really focused on the individual preferences.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

I do believe that the damage is supposed to be roughly the same. Not having to do Kaiten also means being able to do more Shinten, and that keeps me busy. When I played SAM after the changes, I had heard about all the backlash and feared what the job had become. But my personal testing found that the change feels quite good. I know that people disagree, but the important question is whether people disagree whether because the change is bad, or because they don't want to change to a new play style. Imagine how I feel then, as a MNK for nearly a decade, when greased lightning was removed, and then MNK was changed to using Master's Gauge. Of course there are MNKs who hate what the job is like now, I'm simply not one of them. So my advice to SAM mains is this: don't force yourselves to play SAM if you just cannot agree to the changes. But if you're going to critique it, you're also going to have to accept that people might like the change in spite of what you think.

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More shinten is literally one of the core problems....We're just spamming it and its something the devs themselves said back during SB they didn't want us doing which is why they removed hagakure initially in ShB.

The overall damage is 3% less than prior to 6.1 and gekko/kasha doing nearly as much damage as a midare doesn't feel good, especially when the auto crits are basically doing the same damage as a normal hit for midare prior to 6.1. Its not JUST the removal of kaiten, its the overall feel. The build up of big damage is gone, the kenki management is gone, its just....boring now. There's no big hits anymore and its just a boring spam of shinten. Why do we even have a kenki gauge still? I can almost guarantee gyoten is going to have its damage removed and placed on some stupid charged skill in a later update to further make kenki useless because currently right now instead of kaiten we're using gyoten in the rotation.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

This does not seem right. You had to waste time Kaitening in front of every iaijutsu, and you have to use up kenki for Shinten. Calling kenki a pointless resource is a gross exaggeration.

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Shinten is being used in the exact same spots kaiten was being used in the large majority of the time with gyoten mixed in to get rid of excess kenki, especially during the opener after popping ishikoten. If you're not doing that then you're holding on to too much kenki. So yes, the APM is nearly identical.

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Originally Posted by Ransu

Shinten is being used in the exact same spots kaiten was being used in the large majority of the time with gyoten mixed in to get rid of excess kenki, especially during the opener after popping ishikoten. If you're not doing that then you're holding on to too much kenki. So yes, the APM is nearly identical.

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To be exact, it's approximately 1 APM less in the post-6.1 world than it was in 6.0-6.08, which in-turn was about 1 APM less than it was in ShB. SAM's are literally pressing one less button per minute now due to the Kaiten change. That might be a big deal if we were only pressing maybe 30 buttons a minute, but SAM APM as of 6.08 was around the 45-46 mark iirc, and now we're around the 44-45 mark. Which, functionally, amounts to nothing.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

I'm chiming in to say that I much prefer the new SAM compared to the old one. Kaiten just felt like 1 button too many compared to how SAM plays now. My main is MNK... And MNK is the king of having useless abilities, lol. So, to me, removing a button press that doesn't really feel great is better than having that button constantly impeding the way it plays. The devs could just do nothing or do the wrong thing, which is what happened with MNK's Anatman and Six-Sided Star.

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I've been following your comments, and this is the one that broke me.
You're an idiot

The director should play as a Hrothgar Samurai for a while so he can better understand multiple sets of pressing player concerns and see how not prioritizing related issues leaves bad impressions. And as all the healers too, honestly. Why only focus on Black Mage?

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Originally Posted by Stasya

DRG NIN MNK are next in line to get auto crit.

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I'd at least be in favor of making Chakra more predictable.
I don't think it's good design when you end up in random situations where you lose part of your resource.
Which is a thing with Chakra, there are situations where you will overcap unless you wanna clip gcd's.

If you like more shinten spam - I don't even have words. That's possibly a worse take than the usual trollish 'deal with it.'

Kaiten was a LOVELY ability. It looked great, it felt good. There are a lot of abilities, in every class, that don't. That one did. But God, PLEASE don't let this game go to that abysmal level of easy-mode play. One ability spam is a nightmare. Just truly, deeply depressing.

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Originally Posted by ShanaShirayuki

The change is bad, it's an objective fact. No more synergy with four classes that buff crit (as well as a loss of DPS for them), as well as SAM initially losing 3% of its overall DPS after 6.1. The changes were not well thought out and rushed; was proven with the 6.11 band-aid changes that were in regards to a meme rotation in Yukikaze > Hagakure > Shinten spam doing similar numbers to the devs' projections in 6.1. I don't know how long you've played the class, but if you cannot notice the awkward pauses in your rotation where Kaiten used to be in between where Shinten is spammed, then it shows you aren't experienced on SAM (aka your personal testing amounts from little to nothing). The class does not feel good; your being a MNK main lends little credence to your opinion, sorry to say.

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Why would there be an awkward pause where Kaiten used to be? You just perform a Shinten in that gap. I certainly had to practice a new rotation, but what I did was to replace my Kaiten button with my Shinten button, and every time I did a 'Kaiten' in front of Iaijutsu I did a Shinten, which was effectively what I wanted until the muscle memory grew back.

MNK and SAM wear the same left and right side gear, so yes I was quite able to test the job with quite nice gear lol. I apologize in advance, but saying that you main <job> means that you have no say in how SAM is supposed to be like is just arrogance.

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Originally Posted by Hezhi

I've played this job for years now, why should I be the one moving on because SE is trying to (supposedly) make it more appealing to others at the expense of a huge chunk of long term SAM mains? It's a philosophy I just cannot agree with.
I went ahead and tried these changes with an open mind, but ended up disliking everything about it. The thing is, we didn't really have to adapt to a new playstyle, it's literally the same thing except with resource management massively dumbed down, numbers that don't feel as good, and less synergy with other jobs. Yeah Shinten keeps busy, but I was happier when I didn't have to mash the same button and had to manage Kenki a little bit. That kinda depth that makes you feel like there's more to a job than crude Shinten spam lol, its a side of SAM I used to like they simply took away. So I feel it's right to go and voice my discontent in hope for a swift revert in this case.

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I smiled a little at this. I've played MNK since ARR and every day someone complained about how unsynergistic MNK was in raiding. Then one fine day there was Stormblood. I was there when everyone chortled about all MNKs moving to SAM... and then SAM became the new 'MNK selfish DPS', and MNK basically was preferred over SAM just because of Brotherhood. Have you seen the MNK changes? People laugh at MCH changes, but no really, in comparison to MNK changes? Anyone remember elemental tackles?

I stuck to MNK because at the end of the day, I was more interested in the core job identity and I was willing to train myself to adapt to whatever changes the job was given. The closest I came to dropping the job was the removal of greased lightning, after I shared in everyone's joy at seeing GL4 in the ShB job actions trailer.

So yes, moving on is a good idea when your vision != the devs' vision. It isn't a petty thing to do, it also informs the devs when job usage drops like a stone and people send negative feedback.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Are you insinuating the APM is down just because an oGCD doesn't have to be used before specific GCD skills? You "waste time" shinten-ing before any other GCD the same as you'd do for kaiten only now you don't have to think about saving resources for more intelligent application, you just fire and forget.

I don't know why it "doesn't seem right." There's extra kenki from what would have gone to kaiten that still needs spending so of course apm would remain similar.

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No, my belief that APM should be higher now, since you can perform 2 Shintens for every weaponskill and you don't have to save for Kaiten, so you should have the kenki for it. I would hardly call using Kaiten intelligent application- it's obvious you would save kenki for Kaiten over performing a Shinten. Now that Kaiten's buff is rolled into other areas to try to make up the potency loss, naturally you try to do Shinten as much as possible but more importantly as soon as possible, since there is no advantage to saving a full before spamming it.

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Originally Posted by Kaseladen

I've been following your comments, and this is the one that broke me.
You're an idiot

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Sorry to offend you, you sound like a nice person.

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Originally Posted by Ceridwen

If you like more shinten spam - I don't even have words. That's possibly a worse take than the usual trollish 'deal with it.'

Kaiten was a LOVELY ability. It looked great, it felt good. There are a lot of abilities, in every class, that don't. That one did. But God, PLEASE don't let this game go to that abysmal level of easy-mode play. One ability spam is a nightmare. Just truly, deeply depressing.

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I didn't like Kaiten and it's one of the reasons why I don't seriously play SAM today. And it actually ties in to how Iaijutsu feels, which I felt as though it was just a tad too long where you cannot move or else you interrupt the channeling. So to put Kaiten in front of every Iaijutsu and I almost feel like I'm watching grass grow. I admit it, I'm too used to the spammy dancing monkey nonsense of MNK to have the patience to play SAM, so removing Kaiten and just weaving in more instant casts just felt right to me.

Just a note to all, I am NOT SAYING that your preference to seeing Kaiten exist is wrong. But it feels as though many SAM fanatics don't hear enough from outside the job. Probably at the end of the day you'll all disregard my remarks, but at least I tried to provide a counter-opinion, hopefully as respectfully as possible.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

You cannot design a game like that. You can't just build a job, develop a fanbase who love the identity and gameplay it offers, then randomly take a dump on them and toss them out the window on a whim. Telling SAM mains to stop playing their job if they don't like the random changes is crazy.

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Of course it would be crazy, but objectively did that happen? One ability got dropped and look at the number of rants on this forum.

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Peoples preferences vary. Someone out there is going to like almost any change you can think of. That's besides the point, because you could make any random tweak you liked and someone would praise it. It's not an indicator of good design.
There are about 20 jobs, which means they can and should offer a variety of different playstyles for each player. They don't need to alter the core identity or target audience. It literally doesn't matter if you, as an individual player like it. It matters what the overall SAM fans like. Because that's who you should design each job for. Create 20 individual playstyles, then fine tune each to be the best experience for that specific playerbase.

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I think that good design will stand regardless of whether anyone praises or hates it. If everyone hates a good change, does that make it bad? I can plainly see how many people disagree with the change, but disagreement doesn't mean change is bad. And yes, my agreement with the change doesn't mean that it's good either. At the end of the day, the devs, let's assume they truly have game design at heart, wants to ensure that the numbers don't go way beyond or below the average, so I take it at face value that the change is supposed to even out how drastic it is whenever one SAM can put out a string of direct crits on Iaijutsu versus another who is simply unlucky one raiding day.

Perhaps they should have found a way to keep the animation for Kaiten? Perhaps, but this sort of thing isn't new either where ability graphics get phased out along with the ability itself.

Lastly I quite disagree that it only matters what SAM fans want. ALL jobs are for ALL players. If you are good at any particular job you will forever shine at that job compared to any casual player, and making the design cater towards the 'casual' isn't going to make them play as well as someone who understands the nuances of SAM and who puts in the practice. Not unless the job was basically remade from something that was quite complicated to something quite simple, like SMN. So yeah, I'm happy that this is a minor change and it just so happens to agree with me... And I quite enjoy reading the criticisms as well, I'm sure that it has the intended effect of making the devs pause and rethink their major changes to the job in the future.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

Just a note to all, I am NOT SAYING that your preference to seeing Kaiten is wrong. But it feels as though many SAM fanatics don't hear enough from outside the job. Probably at the end of the day you'll all disregard my remarks, but at least I tried to provide a counter-opinion, hopefully as respectfully as possible.

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It's totally fine to disagree lol. It makes me retain some sanity thinking that these changes make sense and appeal to at least some people.
But again, I don't feel like they should change SAM to appeal more to MNK players for example, in the same way they shouldn't make other melees more like SAM. It's cool to love or hate some jobs, for example I don't like RPR that much, yet I see a TON of RPRs players who all love the job, and that's fine, I wouldn't want them to change it to appeal to me more. I believe there's inherent value in such variety!

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

And it actually ties in to how Iaijutsu feels, which I felt as though it was just a tad too long where you cannot move or else you interrupt the channeling. So to put Kaiten in front of every Iaijutsu and I almost feel like I'm watching grass grow.

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...this is literally the very essence of Samurai.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

No, my belief that APM should be higher now, since you can perform 2 Shintens for every weaponskill and you don't have to save for Kaiten, so you should have the kenki for it. I would hardly call using Kaiten intelligent application- it's obvious you would save kenki for Kaiten over performing a Shinten. Now that Kaiten's buff is rolled into other areas to try to make up the potency loss, naturally you try to do Shinten as much as possible but more importantly as soon as possible, since there is no advantage to saving a full before spamming it.

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It wouldn't be higher either because Kaiten factored into APM previously. You're not getting 2 shintens per what used to be kaiten, it's closer to 1 shinten per what used to be kaiten.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

Just a note to all, I am NOT SAYING that your preference to seeing Kaiten is wrong. But it feels as though many SAM fanatics don't hear enough from outside the job. Probably at the end of the day you'll all disregard my remarks, but at least I tried to provide a counter-opinion, hopefully as respectfully as possible.

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There's a lot of things I would change about MNK to suit my personal tastes, but as I have no high level of experience or emotional investment in the job, I don't feel compelled to share those opinions. I know beforehand that whatever I say will most likely catch a lot of flak because they don't come from a place of true understanding regarding the appeal and gameplay of MNK. And I would absolutely deserve it, especially if I entered a thread started by and for upset MNK mains. Even if the opinion is valid to SE for general feedback purposes, it would be completely worthless to the people that it affects the most.

Back to the topic of SAM, of course your remarks are going to be disregarded in this thread. We don't work for SE and we aren't trying to appeal to people who main other jobs. "Counter-opinions" in this context just translate to anything that attempts to further erode SAM identity. We are trying to get the job back on track to appeal to SAM mains. Everything I've seen written in defense of 6.1 SAM changes just seems to be apathy, misunderstanding, or bootlicking. There hasn't been a single argument produced that has made me stop and think "Hmm, you know, they've got a point. Maybe 6.1 isn't so bad for SAM." Meanwhile, SAM mains have produced multiple eloquent videos and thesis papers on why the changes are measurably destructive.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

If everyone hates a good change, does that make it bad?

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How do we define good change?

Let's say "Samurainess" is a measurable value that every job in the game holds. Naturally, SAM is at the the top of this chart. However if we compare the values from 6.08 to to 6.1, SAM's "Samurainess" value has decreased and is now closer to other jobs. I would say this is a bad change regardless of personal feelings. It reduces the game's diversity of playstyles even if it's a relatively small amount.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

Lastly I quite disagree that it only matters what SAM fans want. ALL jobs are for ALL players

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There's nothing stopping any player from learning any job. This isn't about selfishness. New players and veterans alike are affected negatively by nonsensical changes. A good chunk of SAM mains had no reason to visit the forums until recently, only to find that many people who main other jobs are very dissatisfied as well. We still have zero information on what compelled these changes besides the "action bloat" excuse. From our perspective, the only way they could have been greenlit is if people responsible for combat design didn't even bother running the 6.1 story dungeon as SAM a single time.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

I didn't like Kaiten and it's one of the reasons why I don't seriously play SAM today. And it actually ties in to how Iaijutsu feels, which I felt as though it was just a tad too long where you cannot move or else you interrupt the channeling. So to put Kaiten in front of every Iaijutsu and I almost feel like I'm watching grass grow. I admit it, I'm too used to the spammy dancing monkey nonsense of MNK to have the patience to play SAM, so removing Kaiten and just weaving in more instant casts just felt right to me.

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I love the argument point, essentially being " But I am used to MNK ".

The dev's took away following essential things that we loved about Samurai.

• Resource management and spending
• Our big hits feeling like it has weight

Charging up your gauge, and casting slow skills? for big hits, really hard. Samurai gameplay. Essentially a " Melee-Caster ".

FYI, Kaiten can be casted on the move it doesn't require you to be stationary. Just the Iaijutsu. As for " spammy " and " instant casts ", the animation duration of Kaiten and Shinten barely differs. If you mean mindlessly Kenki-dump-spamming-Shinten as a good change to you... yeah... okey.

If you like the identify of Melee Caster to be a lot more Melee and a lot less Caster, i.e to feel like a MNK as you put it? " no patience " right, great? I thought MNK = MNK and SAM = SAM. But apparently to improve your FFXIV, everything is better if it just feels like MNK to specifically you. Such validness...

Next up hire this person to give SAM some chakra's and a Katana Pommel Slam animation with a Samurai Punch combo activation. Finally SAM is great, feeling just like MNK. Super.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

I didn't like Kaiten and it's one of the reasons why I don't seriously play SAM today. And it actually ties in to how Iaijutsu feels, which I felt as though it was just a tad too long where you cannot move or else you interrupt the channeling. So to put Kaiten in front of every Iaijutsu and I almost feel like I'm watching grass grow. I admit it, I'm too used to the spammy dancing monkey nonsense of MNK to have the patience to play SAM, so removing Kaiten and just weaving in more instant casts just felt right to me.

Just a note to all, I am NOT SAYING that your preference to seeing Kaiten exist is wrong. But it feels as though many SAM fanatics don't hear enough from outside the job. Probably at the end of the day you'll all disregard my remarks, but at least I tried to provide a counter-opinion, hopefully as respectfully as possible.

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I'm going to pick this comment to go with. But what you said ties in exactly to what I called samurai in other threads: A discount half-assed monk in its current iteration. And that is the problem samurai has, it lost its identity and assumed another one. Because it's so much like monk, why would you play the shittier version when the real version is available too? We have 5 melee roles, each plays differently from the other, with the exception of samurai now. Sure samurai still has little quirks, but it largely flows the same as monk. Practically down to a flowchart if someone wanted to make that for samurai. Forbidden chakra, roughly the same usage with only minor variation in timing due to chakras being gained differently. A blitz can just be an iaijutus, only less frequent and much stronger. Not a 1 to 1 copy but eerily similar.

Which goes to my second question: Why do you like samurai, because it...Plays like monk? If that's the case, then why not...Just play monk? This is the crux of your entire argument, and as much as offering counter opinions is nice, you're simply asking for one job to be too similar to your other job. It's hard to argue successfully from that position when others can simply point out you're simply aiming to copy another thing that already exists. We're looking for variety, not sameness. And that concept's worrying the community as a whole with the next round of "balance" patches coming up in 6.2.

And here's the follow up because again, 3000 characters is too little for a forum post -

So to argue the point of kaiten: It is not a big brain thing, but was meant to control the flow of kenki to avoid the current situation now, which is simply spamming shinten when you get the kenki for it, or gyoten because on a 1:1 ratio the kenki to damage is the same. And because of kaiten's windup, you were rewarded for patience with controlling your kenki uses and timing your midare setsugekka (you're allowed to time it slightly due to how sen as a mechanic works as well), in the event you need to do something like step away from the boss or do a mechanic that requires you to dance a little. The other thing is the damage of your iaijutsus, that do have a build up and cast time, feels good when you release it for that big damage. And now the build up is just...Gone. Stab every 7 seconds, tickle your enemy with a midare every 16 seconds roughly.

Kaiten being important to samurai's current iteration would be understating its value. You can see how the loss of it changed the flow of samurai. Think of an equivalent like this: Monk's GCD gets increased by 0.5 seconds, to give it a 2.5s GCD. It's a simple change, yes, but it literally ruins the flow of monk by just how slow it is now. Do you think that's a good change, or would you look at it and not be amused? Because that specific change would bring monk to be similar to...Dragoon, which has a very slow flow but very strict combo structure. And that change I would also not support, because monk is meant to be a brawler that overwhelms a foe with lightning-fast punches and kicks. But that change would make it much easier to play for everyone due to being able to keep the GCD rolling.

In close, samurai would need to be overhauled from the ground up to compensate for removing pieces of its kit in order for the class to "feel samurai" again. And given how the devs clearly don't understand class feeling with how they botched samurai now (as they've had to patch it to avoid a meme rotation of all things being more competitive than the standard, intended one), they clearly don't know how to do that. I'll happily eat my words if I'm wrong, but I only expect disappointment from their balance devs going forward.

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Originally Posted by Ruminous

I'm going to pick this comment to go with. But what you said ties in exactly to what I called samurai in other threads: A discount half-assed monk in its current rotation. And that is the problem samurai has. Because it's so much like monk, why would you play the shittier version when the real version is available too? We have 5 melee roles, each plays differently from the other, with the exception of samurai now. Sure it has little quirks still, but it largely flows the same as monk. Practically down to the flowchart if someone wanted to make that for samurai.

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the hell did i just read lol

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Originally Posted by butchersblock

the hell did i just read lol

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The ramblings of someone who's lacking sleep these days and trying to make a point, but also fails to English. I hope the point got across though!

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Originally Posted by Ruminous

The ramblings of someone who's lacking sleep these days and trying to make a point, but also fails to English. I hope the point got across though!

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I'm all for criticizing homogenization but I fail to see the resemblance between Monk's and Samurai's gameplay fantasies, so no I don't think your point quite reached me yet

These takes are so hot, I can't even tell if it's genuine anymore. I've also been saying that SAM feels like worse-MNK since the change which is bad. A job might be comparable to another, but they should never be exactly the same. That problem already exists in the healer and tank roles, especially WAR and DRK. They need to stop that.

Losing Kaiten didn't increase the amount of shinten by that much. It just made it the only thing left to do and it's stupid.

Also, yes, there is a huge chunk of nothing before every iaijutsu cast because kaiten isn't there to buffer into it cleanly with the animation. Shinten animation is probably what, like 6 or 9 frames? idk, but all I know is that trying to pad out the gcd roll with a shinten I'm still sitting there watching my character do nothing for nearly 2 seconds because of how damn fast and abrupt shinten is.

Also, while I'd agree that all players are welcome to have an opinion, to look at a game that's supposed to have diverse ways of play through the various jobs and say 'this is now better because it plays the same as another' means that the devs have failed at their job of creating unique gameplay. Just look at any interview that discusses one job to another, you'll see the devs say 'no, this job is this job, so why would we make that job like this?' As if we're crazy for suggesting something to them.

For instance, I saw a clip not too long ago where someone had asked why RDM vercure scaled off their int stat while SMN physick scaled off mnd and all they could say was "rdm is rdm, there should be differences between jobs, otherwise it would all be the same and that's not fun"

So why the heck is everything being, let's say it together now.... "Homogenized" for the sake of accessibility. Sounds to me like they're going against their typical philosophy on job design.

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Originally Posted by butchersblock

I'm all for criticizing homogenization but I fail to see the resemblance between Monk's and Samurai's gameplay fantasies, so no I don't think your point quite reached me yet

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I apologize, it isn't meant to be a cross between their fantasies. My point is samurai feels too much like a half-assed shittier version of monk. I want both to feel different, not the same, since if I wanted the monk experience I'd just go play monk. I'll go clean that up so there's less confusion in the post. My sleepless brain probably said it wrong.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

Why would there be an awkward pause where Kaiten used to be? You just perform a Shinten in that gap. I certainly had to practice a new rotation, but what I did was to replace my Kaiten button with my Shinten button, and every time I did a 'Kaiten' in front of Iaijutsu I did a Shinten, which was effectively what I wanted until the muscle memory grew back.

MNK and SAM wear the same left and right side gear, so yes I was quite able to test the job with quite nice gear lol. I apologize in advance, but saying that you main <job> means that you have no say in how SAM is supposed to be like is just arrogance.

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There's an awkward pause because shinten is a quick animation and doesn't fill the GCD like kaiten did. Shinten is also just a horrible animation.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

No, my belief that APM should be higher now, since you can perform 2 Shintens for every weaponskill and you don't have to save for Kaiten, so you should have the kenki for it. I would hardly call using Kaiten intelligent application- it's obvious you would save kenki for Kaiten over performing a Shinten. Now that Kaiten's buff is rolled into other areas to try to make up the potency loss, naturally you try to do Shinten as much as possible but more importantly as soon as possible, since there is no advantage to saving a full before spamming it.

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You can believe whatever you want, but its still factually wrong. You also seem to be bad at math or somehow forgot that shinten cost more than kaiten did.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

I didn't like Kaiten and it's one of the reasons why I don't seriously play SAM today. And it actually ties in to how Iaijutsu feels, which I felt as though it was just a tad too long where you cannot move or else you interrupt the channeling. So to put Kaiten in front of every Iaijutsu and I almost feel like I'm watching grass grow. I admit it, I'm too used to the spammy dancing monkey nonsense of MNK to have the patience to play SAM, so removing Kaiten and just weaving in more instant casts just felt right to me.

Just a note to all, I am NOT SAYING that your preference to seeing Kaiten exist is wrong. But it feels as though many SAM fanatics don't hear enough from outside the job. Probably at the end of the day you'll all disregard my remarks, but at least I tried to provide a counter-opinion, hopefully as respectfully as possible.

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WTF are you on about? Kaiten was an oGCD just like shinten is. You still have to settle in a spot and cast your iajutsus. Nothing changes in that regard. The more you post the more people are going to disregard anything you say. You clearly don't understand how to play the job. If you don't play the job then we don't care what you have to say. We don't care about hearing players from outside the job because catering to people who don't like or don't play it is the wrong approach. Its why everyone is so pissed off at all the job changes. We have 20 jobs and not all of them are going to be for everyone. They should be doubling down on what the players enjoy about their mains, not butchering them to appeal to players that still wont main those jobs.

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

I didn't like Kaiten and it's one of the reasons why I don't seriously play SAM today. And it actually ties in to how Iaijutsu feels, which I felt as though it was just a tad too long where you cannot move or else you interrupt the channeling. So to put Kaiten in front of every Iaijutsu and I almost feel like I'm watching grass grow. I admit it, I'm too used to the spammy dancing monkey nonsense of MNK to have the patience to play SAM, so removing Kaiten and just weaving in more instant casts just felt right to me.

Just a note to all, I am NOT SAYING that your preference to seeing Kaiten exist is wrong. But it feels as though many SAM fanatics don't hear enough from outside the job. Probably at the end of the day you'll all disregard my remarks, but at least I tried to provide a counter-opinion, hopefully as respectfully as possible.

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One of my issues with the monk is all the clipping, though on her, I've built that up before Samurai. (My bunny was the Samurai - it looked better on him. On her, I barely noticed Kaiten, in that I couldn't see it. I can see myself stand on my head and spin & kick everything far beyond my range, however)

So I'd guess how the class looks means less to you than faster action. But Samurai was never a fast job, imo - it was methodical and elegant, quite the opposite of a monk. I wouldn't want it to be a monk, because both classes had their point, their image, and their feel. I can replicate how Kaiten looked like - I'd look like a fool, no doubt, but I can do it. Replicating shinten would mean - poking someone? I guess? (I could, in theory, replicate my amazing monk spin - but... - Meaning, at least I remember what it looks like.

That's the problem, I guess. Many of us really cared about the feel and aesthetics of the Samurai, and that's gone. It's simpler, but if they're just going to make every class but BLM fast & simple - they're going into dark warc territory, and I deeply do not want that.

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Originally Posted by xAFROx

These takes are so hot, I can't even tell if it's genuine anymore. I've also been saying that SAM feels like worse-MNK since the change which is bad. A job might be comparable to another, but they should never be exactly the same. That problem already exists in the healer and tank roles, especially WAR and DRK. They need to stop that.

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Besides grieving the hollowing of what I considered one of the best designed classes, THIS is what's bothering me the most. Monk still feels like a monk - the Samurai doesn't feel like anything, but it is tipping dangerously into a lesser, blander version of mnk. I do feel it with my healers - and I love healing, but I often find myself placing abilities in the same spot because they ARE the same.

Dear devs, if you are still reading the forums when are we gonna get our Kaiten back!

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Originally Posted by Mahimahi

Why would there be an awkward pause where Kaiten used to be? You just perform a Shinten in that gap. I certainly had to practice a new rotation, but what I did was to replace my Kaiten button with my Shinten button, and every time I did a 'Kaiten' in front of Iaijutsu I did a Shinten, which was effectively what I wanted until the muscle memory grew back.

MNK and SAM wear the same left and right side gear, so yes I was quite able to test the job with quite nice gear lol. I apologize in advance, but saying that you main <job> means that you have no say in how SAM is supposed to be like is just arrogance.

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Except your entire argument has been "SAM feels more like MNK so it's good now." So I'll echo what others have said, stick to playing MNK and let the rest of us who actually know the class fight to have its identity returned. It's been painfully obvious in your replies to others and vice versa that you are not experienced with SAM; nor know or care about the issues it currently has. It's not arrogant to call out someone's ignorance; I'm sorry you see it as such.