On the topic of DRG being busy and button bloat.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

So, after all the hue and cry, what did SE actually do with regard to Dragoon?

Reduced the animation time for all jumps.

That's it.

The end.

---

And merged high jump with mirage dive making it a mess bc it instant queues it making you almost unable to hold onto mirage dive unless you press High Jump only once... which is not how people normally play. We spam buttons to make sure it goes through.

It's counter intuitive and super clunky.

I'm reaching the point where i'd rather the devs did nothing bc every job they're touching they're messing it up even further and I am dreading the future changes and praying that they revert this and then leave DRG alone.

This version of DRG was amazing to me. It was smooth, busy and fun. Knowing that the devs have their sights on DRG is worrying me to say the least.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aco505

Line AoEs are a defining factor of DRG in AoE and 2-target scenarios, so removing them would be bad for the game. If people complain about these, are all AoEs going to become circles then?

There's nothing more satisfying that pulling off GSK/NAS/WWT cleaves on 2 targets.

---

i am with you man. i like it when we have some difference between jobs like their aoes.

but warrior had overpower as a cone for 8 god damn year and it meant jack and shit to the devs. dont get me started on kaiten.
making sense is also not a thing when it came to tenko with sam. having a skill that has a cast bar suddenly be a circle. now i have to stand next to the tank and cast my aoe while i may get hit by potential cleave or aoes form mobs.

keep your eyes open and your keyboard ready when they come for you line aoes next.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

So, after all the hue and cry, what did SE actually do with regard to Dragoon?

Reduced the animation time for all jumps.

That's it.

The end.

---

And combining High Jump with Mirage Dive which does not feel good at all.

With further plans to "streamline" it in 6.2. That's the problem. People in this thread are complaining about a comment that the devs made about button bloat on DRG and how they were working on "fixing" it. It would be naive to think that the Mirage Dive change was all that they were talking about.

Looking at how the Devs touched SAM due to "action bloat" really makes me worry about the planned 6.2 changes. Having Jump and Mirage Dive on one button already feels more annoying than beneficial. I really like how DRG feels in Endwalker so please don't fix something which is not broken...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by DPZ2

So, after all the hue and cry, what did SE actually do with regard to Dragoon?

Reduced the animation time for all jumps.

That's it.

The end.

---

As others have already mentioned, it was because the devs talked about how DRG would get "huge adjustments" in 6.2 that this thread was created, as DRG is apparently seen as a problem because it's "too busy", which is hardly the case.

Hence, even if we dodged the bullet, we'd rather talk about it now, since the devs change things at a specific patch and not before. There's no PTR or test server for us to check the changes and give feedback before it happens. And besides, the sentiment is that the job is smooth and well-rounded, and that it doesn't need such big adjustments.

Therefore, talking about this and giving feedback in this very moment is what we have to do to make sure there's no gigantic changes that would make the job lose its identity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Zhao_Yun

Looking at how the Devs touched SAM due to "action bloat" really makes me worry about the planned 6.2 changes. Having Jump and Mirage Dive on one button already feels more annoying than beneficial. I really like how DRG feels in Endwalker so please don't fix something which is not broken...

---

I made a post in the bug forum (https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...-weaving-often) about the MD change that was moved to "accepted bugs" so hopefully they'll fix it!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ralt21

i am with you man. i like it when we have some difference between jobs like their aoes.

but warrior had overpower as a cone for 8 god damn year and it meant jack and shit to the devs. dont get me started on kaiten.
making sense is also not a thing when it came to tenko with sam. having a skill that has a cast bar suddenly be a circle. now i have to stand next to the tank and cast my aoe while i may get hit by potential cleave or aoes form mobs.

keep your eyes open and your keyboard ready when they come for you line aoes next.

---

I suppose that for SAM they wanted to address the adjustments that you have to do from switching between circle and cone AoE often, but it's true that casting circles in the middle of a mob pack could be more dangerous. They also kinda forgot to add the guaranteed crit to Tenka Gokken, but people are providing feedback about this, so they might change it back, hopefully!

As for the tanks, they just wanted them all "equal" in this regard 'cuz WAR was the only one with a cone in their basic AoE combo.

Still, I want to hope that this won't mean that every single DPS or job will have their AoE type adjusted in the future, because then the game would be stale, bland and uninteresting, especially if we consider the fact that jobs are balanced around single target.

Quality of life when needed and asked, yes; extreme homogenization...? Please no. Keep the uniqueness of each job!

Personally I would be happy if they reordered the combo actions for drg, or just did away with fang and claw and give us pentathrust instead. Part of my complaint with the system is despite it being longer strings than other roles, the last two hits are boring. Akin to punching someone hard in the face and knocking them down (Heavens' Thrust) then tickling them with silly little nonsense. (fang and claw into wheeling thrust, and vice versa).

Dragonfire dive is boring as well. Make it do more than just be a button I have to remember to push every 2 minutes. Make it combo into another stardiver or something, or make the next stardiver a super stardiver (akin to the one Estinien uses in the EW intro video). Adjust potencies as needed. Otherwise, aside from its aesthetic, it suffers from the same things dream within a dream and hissatsu senei do. Just buttons you push when they're off CD for something pretty. I'd also propose giving dream/senei other functions so they're less forgettable as well, but that's for other threads.

Apart from those two things, drg's fine, move on. Stop breaking things in the name of "reducing bloat". You already saw how well that one went over with samurais. We can see past the excuses.

I still think that a couple skills are a little redundant, but the changes have reduced my problems. Just thought I’d say it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LauraAdalena

I still think that a couple skills are a little redundant, but the changes have reduced my problems. Just thought I’d say it.

---

I feel like (and I say this with no intention of insult at all) you feel that way because you don't necessarily understand what the change did outside of being able to press the same button twice.

Do you typically do High Jump AND Mirage Dive between GCDs already? Is there ever an instance where you would hold onto Mirage Dive (i.e. you have 2 eyes for life of the dragon already and want to wait until you go into it before doing mirage dive again)?

They REALLLLY want all jobs to play as healers huh

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

I feel like (and I say this with no intention of insult at all) you feel that way because you don't necessarily understand what the change did outside of being able to press the same button twice.

Do you typically do High Jump AND Mirage Dive between GCDs already? Is there ever an instance where you would hold onto Mirage Dive (i.e. you have 2 eyes for life of the dragon already and want to wait until you go into it before doing mirage dive again)?

---

I was talking about being able to double weave jumps. I don’t know what you’re on, that’s a minor QOL change if anything and barely affects job flow.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ruminous

Personally I would be happy if they reordered the combo actions for drg, or just did away with fang and claw and give us pentathrust instead. Part of my complaint with the system is despite it being longer strings than other roles, the last two hits are boring. Akin to punching someone hard in the face and knocking them down (Heavens' Thrust) then tickling them with silly little nonsense. (fang and claw into wheeling thrust, and vice versa).

---

Actually, due to how often we use them, our positionals are at the top of our damaging attacks. Combined in a 10 GCD string, they amount for 1400 potency, which is a lot! I'd say they hit hard enough, plus they keep the rotation interesting despite it being fixed due to both positionals going one after the other, making us move all the time. DRG is just not a job that has big hits concentrated into specific buttons (and it's better that it stays that way imho to avoid relying on getting that specific attack to crit) because of our oGCDs: where a NIN uses a 1300 potency Hyosho, we use a Life Surged Heavens' Thrust with a Stardiver or Nastrond/Wyrmwind thrust double-weave.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ruminous

Dragonfire dive is boring as well. Make it do more than just be a button I have to remember to push every 2 minutes. Make it combo into another stardiver or something, or make the next stardiver a super stardiver (akin to the one Estinien uses in the EW intro video). Adjust potencies as needed. Otherwise, aside from its aesthetic, it suffers from the same things dream within a dream and hissatsu senei do. Just buttons you push when they're off CD for something pretty. I'd also propose giving dream/senei other functions so they're less forgettable as well, but that's for other threads.

---

Absolutely! DFD should, at least, hit harder. It's a 120s cooldown, so it should either do that or provide us with something!

In any case, I don't think it's bad for stuff like DFD, DWD and Senei to exist the way they are now. They add extra oomph to burst windows and the interaction is to fit them within buffs, which is a role in itself. I don't think it's bad for some cooldowns to just deal damage, as long as they're not an overwhelming majority, because if we start removing attacks with a cooldown that just deal damage then we will find that many jobs will feel skeletal. DRG only really has one of this, DFD, with SPD being similar in a way, but with a little bit of nuance due to the charges.

Tuning DFD would make our oGCDs perfect in that regard, Dragon Sight notwithstanding.


On another note, I have noticed in other threads that people have been commenting the JP community's feedback on SAM, NIN and other topics.

Does anyone know what they say of DRG regarding the 6.1 patch and the 6.2 planned changes?

Speaking as someone who is currently leveling DRG, the only change I want to see made is moving around some of the ability and trait acquisition levels. If veteran DRG mains don't want more changes, then I defer to their wisdom and support that position. But I think the job would benefit from feeling more complete at level 50, as SAM does. I'm at 56 and there's no job gauge, no AoE combos, nothing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Theodric_Thorne

Speaking as someone who is currently leveling DRG, the only change I want to see made is moving around some of the ability and trait acquisition levels. If veteran DRG mains don't want more changes, then I defer to their wisdom and support that position. But I think the job would benefit from feeling more complete at level 50, as SAM does. I'm at 56 and there's no job gauge, no AoE combos, nothing.

---

Yes, DRG (and other ARR jobs) need an overhaul in the order their actions are learned. It's quite ironic that DRG is one of the jobs with the best AoE in the game, yet our first AoE weaponskill is learned at 40, and the second one at 62, which is also the one that grants Power Surge so before that level you need to use Disembowel first before AoEing, just like in ShB.

DRG is fine at level 50, you mostly try to fit your oGCDs during Lance Charge and since it happens every 60s, you do it often.

Levels 51-60 introduce positionals, Litany and Geirskogul. You mostly do the same as 50, but with extra buttons.

It is at level 70 when DRG feels like how it's played at 90, just with less oGCDs.

But yeah, the job is simply less enjoyable below level 70 because it gets all the good stuff later. It's okay at 50 and beyond but it should get the MNK treatment in this regard, where you get most of your basic kit at 50 and then it slowly builds up every 10 levels.

The 6.11 patch has added a grace period of 1 second before MD can be used to avoid the accidental double weaving.

However, this causes problems now because the double weaving of HJ + MD is only achievable with low ping, mostly like it was before the 6.1 animation lock reduction, which renders it kinda void in this scenario.

I have submitted a post in the bug forums in hopes that they will notice and do something about it (https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...58#post5928458).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aco505

Does anyone know what they say of DRG regarding the 6.1 patch and the 6.2 planned changes?

---

I'm still interested in this if anyone knows!

Discussion about 6.2 and DRG has also happened on Reddit, in posts such as this one (https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxivdiscus..._about_62_drg/).

Let's keep the feedback on DRG going in hopes that the job won't be stripped of its essence in 6.2, and that if they want to adjust it a lot, they should do so in 7.0 and with prior feedback from players to avoid what happened to SAM and NIN!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aco505

Actually, due to how often we use them, our positionals are at the top of our damaging attacks. Combined in a 10 GCD string, they amount for 1400 potency, which is a lot! I'd say they hit hard enough, plus they keep the rotation interesting despite it being fixed due to both positionals going one after the other, making us move all the time. DRG is just not a job that has big hits concentrated into specific buttons (and it's better that it stays that way imho to avoid relying on getting that specific attack to crit) because of our oGCDs: where a NIN uses a 1300 potency Hyosho, we use a Life Surged Heavens' Thrust with a Stardiver or Nastrond/Wyrmwind thrust double-weave.

---

My meaning is the ending strings for drg go from a hard punch to a light tickle. While the total potency of the entire string can be high, the fact that it hits a crescendo in the middle of the string is the problem. Fang and claw as an action, simply does not need to exist. It's just a sad excuse of a random action that was added in Heavensward alongside wheeling thrust, back when your 4th hit was a random finisher. I'd rather the 56 ability be a combo jump at the end of a string that hits for something. Reorder the potency a bit to make wheeling thrust hit harder in place of heavens' thrust...

Ah, I'm just spewing out ideas. Fang and Claw/Wheeling Thrust to me were poorly thought out abilities since their inception, lance mastery's introduction in Stormblood just made the actions be a bit more useable...But doesn't make them good. As for dragonfire dive, I'd love to see it be a combo action with stardiver, turning it into heavens' dive or something if they're going to just leave it in. I'm just nitpicky about the 56/58 abilities and it was one of the things that really turned me off of the job as time went on.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ruminous

My meaning is the ending strings for drg go from a hard punch to a light tickle. While the total potency of the entire string can be high, the fact that it hits a crescendo in the middle of the string is the problem.

---

DRG's potencies are kinda low overall. Even our strongest attack is "low" if we compare it to other jobs' strongest attacks, but I personally find that a good thing. If your potencies are more average but you get a lot of them, you're less likely to get RNG screwed with crits and the like, which is something that many other jobs with 1000+ potencies suffer from.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aco505

DRG's potencies are kinda low overall. Even our strongest attack is "low" if we compare it to other jobs' strongest attacks, but I personally find that a good thing. If your potencies are more average but you get a lot of them, you're less likely to get RNG screwed with crits and the like, which is something that many other jobs with 1000+ potencies suffer from.

---

Until they finish their campaign to autocrit anything higher than 1000 potency; Then DRG will be wanted in fewer groups for 2 reasons.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aco505

DRG's potencies are kinda low overall. Even our strongest attack is "low" if we compare it to other jobs' strongest attacks, but I personally find that a good thing. If your potencies are more average but you get a lot of them, you're less likely to get RNG screwed with crits and the like, which is something that many other jobs with 1000+ potencies suffer from.

---

If the overall potency of the string didn't change, that's fine. My thing is I don't like the string hitting its peak at the second/third hit then jumping off a cliff with the weaksauce Fang and Claw nonsense. So let's say, heavens' thrust did 360 potency and wheeling thrust at the end did 480 (or whatever the current potency of heavens' thrust is now, I forget if it's 460 or 480), then that's fine. When I am saying they should reorder the potencies of some attacks, that's what I mean, not frontload the potency into one GCD. Otherwise you hit samurai's problem of high potencies and crit (and that's a whole new can of worms that isn't a part of this thread.)

Again, to reiterate, make the string build to the payoff, not pay it off in the middle then make the end lame.

Make it so combos switch to the next combo series like it does in PvP. The mechanic is there so why not use it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renalt

Make it so combos switch to the next combo series like it does in PvP. The mechanic is there so why not use it?

---

To be honest, I do wish the combos became more like PVP in the sense of for say; Warrior having two buttons dedicated to the Storm's Eye and the Storm's Path combos respectively. Nobody would ever hit the wrong combo button intentionally so having it be simplified avoids this issue...however there is a catch.

If they did simplify it so that the basic combos themselves simply can't be messed up(other than hitting the other combo during the finisher but you'll still at least get the effect), they'll have to consider many factors, such as making positionals matter more or adding some kind of actual effects, maybe for the Warrior example they could get a Butcher's Block combo to have some other effect even, and adding more actual buttons to compensate for the lack of buttons. Meanwhile for jobs that have actual button bloat like say, Black Mage, Samurai, and Machinist as some examples, actually fix the button bloat(Samurai; Ikishoten turning into Ogi Namikiri, Black Mage; Ley Lines becoming Between the Lines along with Fire IV/Blizzard IV and Freeze/Flare swapping depending on your element, Machinist; Hypercharge turning into Heat Blast and Spread Shot/Scattergun turning into Auto Crossbow during Hypercharge status) and go from there.

The thing I would be worried about is adding the PVP combo system but not adding anything else which would simplify gameplay but not add anything to the space left. And seeing how things have been going lately, I worry that is what they would do even if the actual idea wouldn't be so bad if executed properly...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Renalt

Make it so combos switch to the next combo series like it does in PvP. The mechanic is there so why not use it?

---

Because that's lame and boring in a PvE setting.
It's only ok in pvp because pvp in this game is very quick and burst windows lasts seconds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aco505

I have submitted a post in the bug forums in hopes that they will notice and do something about it (https://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/...58#post5928458).

---

They put the post under "working as intended" so I suppose we're stuck with this until they decide to change it. The best solution would be to just revert the change back to 6.08 where both HJ and MD were separate, although reducing the grace period to 0.8s would be fine I suppose.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

Until they finish their campaign to autocrit anything higher than 1000 potency; Then DRG will be wanted in fewer groups for 2 reasons.

---

If an attack has 100% direct hit/crit chance, it should get a damage boost (usually 5%, with the exception of some BRD/DNC outliers) if it's used under the effect of a direct hit/crit chance buff, and the problem of crit synergy is solved. I fear though that they might just homogenize these buffs into flat % damage increasing ones...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Ruminous

Again, to reiterate, make the string build to the payoff, not pay it off in the middle then make the end lame.

---

Hmmmm perhaps if we had a 4-GCD string and the positional (only one, like between levels 58 and 64) hit harder, but I think the current iteration is the best, despite the damage curve. My only gripe is Litany's duration. It should be 20s for the DRG and 15s for the party so that we can have more wiggle room. We'd still want to fit everything into 15s buffs, but at least we wouldn't be as pressured to use the first Nastrond right after using BL.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MikoRemi

The thing I would be worried about is adding the PVP combo system but not adding anything else which would simplify gameplay but not add anything to the space left.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by ZiraZ

Because that's lame and boring in a PvE setting.
It's only ok in pvp because pvp in this game is very quick and burst windows lasts seconds.

---

Exactly, without any payoff it'd be boring. I personally like our combo string. If they really want to consolidate buttons, they should merge Lance Charge and Dragon Sight, and, despite the fact that I don't really like it, the positionals with Heavens' Thrust and Chaotic Spring or themselves.

I'd like them to allow for the freestyle positional option, in which you choose which one comes out first after HT/CS, but if they also made it so that after using one of these two, they turned into Fang and Claw and Wheeling Thrust respectively, you'd have both extra positional freedom and two extra buttons (three with the LC + DS merge). The other option would be having the positionals share the same button since one can never be used while the other is available, but we wouldn't be able to freestyle them then.

I'm too used to FnC and WT the way they are now and would prefer if they stayed that way, but I'd rather make this small adjustment than lose parts of our kit for nothing.

If they're gonna remove or change anything, it has to be because something else is put on top, not just to prune. They should do the rework on 7.0, not in the middle of the expansion...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aco505

they should merge Lance Charge and Dragon Sight

---

I had the same thought. Turn Dragon Sight into a toggle like Dance Partner, that can be placed on another player outside of combat. Then, every time you use Lance Charge, it gives a small damage buff to your Dragon Sight partner too. No more having to target (or macro) Dragon Sight in the middle of combat, and you get to keep the cool tether animation.

But that would be a group buff on a 60s cooldown, and you know we can't have those anymore!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by YukiB

I had the same thought. Turn Dragon Sight into a toggle like Dance Partner, that can be placed on another player outside of combat. Then, every time you use Lance Charge, it gives a small damage buff to your Dragon Sight partner too. No more having to target (or macro) Dragon Sight in the middle of combat, and you get to keep the cool tether animation.

But that would be a group buff on a 60s cooldown, and you know we can't have those anymore!

---

I'd just rather make Dragon Sight an upgrade to Lance Charge, with the former giving like 15-20% damage for 20s on a 60s cooldown. Dragon Sight lost all of its flavor when the tether was removed and it's just something we press and forget every 2 minutes without any extra implications, unlike abilities like Brotherhood or Arcane Circle. If they made DS like that, then it'd be better though!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Aco505

I'd just rather make Dragon Sight an upgrade to Lance Charge, with the former giving like 15-20% damage for 20s on a 60s cooldown. Dragon Sight lost all of its flavor when the tether was removed and it's just something we press and forget every 2 minutes without any extra implications, unlike abilities like Brotherhood or Arcane Circle. If they made DS like that, then it'd be better though!

---

The tether being removed didn't really change THAT much. Just got rid of a somewhat annoying aspect of the ability that made it worse than similar abilities. The on instance that the tether mattered really was if you threw it on a ranged and a BLM isn't going to move out of Ley lines for the tether, and SMN and RDM can easily just move in and stand a little closer.

I agree with the post your replied to. Make "Dragon Sight" a Dance Partner style buff that grants them 5% damage whenever Lance Charge is used.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LeonKeyh

The tether being removed didn't really change THAT much. Just got rid of a somewhat annoying aspect of the ability that made it worse than similar abilities. The on instance that the tether mattered really was if you threw it on a ranged and a BLM isn't going to move out of Ley lines for the tether, and SMN and RDM can easily just move in and stand a little closer.

I agree with the post your replied to. Make "Dragon Sight" a Dance Partner style buff that grants them 5% damage whenever Lance Charge is used.

---

The range change was good mechanically (and very needed), but the ability lost its "flavor" with it gone. SCH's tether retains the animation despite the range, but we lost it, why? I just find it lackluster now and, while I don't want them to change anything, I'd rather modify Dragon Sight than prune damage oGCDs myself.

Just a excuse to remove its jumps or it’s dot rotation