Let's talk Dark Knights

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Originally Posted by Izscha

And it will stay unchanged, because it's a damn good CD.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Living Dead is fine in a group that knows what they're doing. In a PUG, it's a crapshoot whether the healers are paying attention and know what to do. Solo, it's delayed suicide, because DRK doesn't have enough self-healing to deal with it.

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Living dead still only provides 9 seconds(AT BEST FFS) of actual mitigation while having a 60 second longer cooldown than Holmang, the best invulnerability skill in the gane.

All the downsides of Living Dead are for an extra 9 seconds to time the invulnerability for a death blow in high end content.
That sounds fair enough on paper, but it's not nearly practical enough to compensate for it's downsides even in highly coordinated groups.

Few deathly tankbusters in the game possess such stringent timing to facilitate the use of a buffer window.
Titania EX is the only I can think of off the top of my head that truly benefits from one.

If anything, I'd argue Living Dead encourages bad habits.
By getting used to the safety net provided by the Living Dead Window, you may neglect to actually time the invulnerability accurately - instead, shifting the bulk of the burden of timing mechanics to your healer while having them have to waste an unparalleled amount of healing resources than they would have to exhaust on any other tank.

With Endwalker, Warrior and Gunbreaker will have an significantly easier time timing their invulnerability skills properly for high end content, while DRK's pathetic excuse for a cooldown still has to worry about ending their mitigation window early.

Speaking of dungeons, pulling wall to wall will offer ample opportunities for tanks to utilize their invulnerability skills if the tank and healer cooperate to conserve their other resources during the activation of the skill.
Some tanks exercise the use of a macro to callout the activation period for invulns in advance for PUGs, which even Paladins should use so a healer doesn't waste a regen or shield on during their absolute invincible period.

Living dead is so utterly demanding of healing resources that you're better off not risking using to squeeze out an extra bit of optimization during runs, let alone as a panic button.

DRK is also the only tank that can't benefit from their invulnerability skill during solo play...I could go on...but many people have made it quite clear FOR YEARS just how aggravating Living Dead is.

It's bottom of the barrel gameplay design that cements it as not only my hated skill in FF14, but possibly any GAAS I've ever played.

The only positives I could sing Living Dead is that it looks cool.
Which is practically the thesis of DRK's entire design post HW and TBN.

[Insert generic reminiscence of 3.0's DRK here]

DRK is a job that has, to me at least, felt worse and worse with each iteration, save for the single high point that was TBN in Stormblood. I definitely enjoyed it most at release. It was my main through Heavensward and Stormblood, although it didn't feel quite as good to play in the latter. When the Shadowbringers job action trailer was released, I also lost my shit when I saw that we'd be able to summon our inner darkness to fight alongside us. This excitement faded not long after obtaining the ability when it really hit me that that was all there was to Living Shadow. Going into Endwalker, I will definitely level DRK at some point, but given what we know of it, I do not really expect my view on it to change drastically. I simply do not have it in me to get excited about being able to place Salted Earth at my feet + the Salt and Darkness follow-up. Like so, Shadowbringer also does very little for me beyond having a cool animation. Living Shadow having access to my own abilities past a certain point is also just... Yeah. Don't care.

All of this said, the DRK story has so far been my favorite one due to, as others up there mentioned, how much it goes into your own character's psyche. It really does make your character... a character. This was something that I did not expect at the time when it dropped with Heavensward. I had this idea that our WoL would always remain just sort of... distant in terms of what constitutes a character, and to a degree, they still do but SE has managed to, at the same time, give your character depth. This is an aspect of the job that I'll always cherish, and so, true to the spirit of the job, it's in a somewhat a self-reflective manner that I can just put it to rest. The DRK that I enjoyed playing is simply no more, and I do not foresee it making a return, but it was fun while it lasted. Some good memories there.

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Originally Posted by Brightamethyst

Why does everyone love the ARR DRK story so much anyway? I just don't get it.

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bc of Frey
but after that part of the quests ends it's just a dumb babysitter quest with an annoying Au'ra with too much dialogue

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Originally Posted by Aron73

Death Knight, Dark Knight, not only close by name but also so many other things.
While doing the DRK questline, I started to think to myself, "Holy crap is my warrior becoming a Death Knight?" But in my trust for Square Enix, I decided to continue my DRK training and o'boy what a storyline that was! Masterly crafted and put you on the edge of the seat, thinking, "am I really turning evil here?"
But in the end, due to my training as a warrior and a paladin and the help of a not named Dark knight, I was turned away from my path toward becoming a Death knight. So that's my story, and I hope I will be able to refine it further when I get a bit more hold on the game's lore.
Would you please let us know your story?
https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...ark_knight.jpg

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Probably already mentioned, but DRK's are more along the lines of the game's vigilantes than they are death knights. They operate outside of any jurisdiction, and no one is exempt from their justice; so it isn't necessarily that DRKs are evil, but rather they are more adept and have the aptitude to do what is necessary to actually bring down true evil. However, due to their "dark" methods; they are often branded as evil.

The DRK questline is amazing, and explores a more troubled, but very human side to the WoL. It would only make sense that someone like the WoL would endure the kind of things the questline brings to the forefront, making it by far one of the most relatable in game.

I won't go too much into my own story here, but the "Am I turning evil?" thoughts had more to do with the entanglement with Esteem. There are probably several ways you can interpret Esteem and their role to the WoL. The way I did was that I wasn't losing myself to evil, but rather having an overwhelming feeling of being a slave to my own resolve, and having a very strong inner desire to just walk away from it all. However, to to do that and have that freedom would require that I abandon the very principles that make me, me. My friends, my fellow Scions, my duty.

Glad you're enjoying the job. Hopefully you'll continue to do so in EW.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Living Dead is fine in a group that knows what they're doing. In a PUG, it's a crapshoot whether the healers are paying attention and know what to do. Solo, it's delayed suicide, because DRK doesn't have enough self-healing to deal with it.

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Even if the healer knows what to do in an organized group, if you use LD to immune tank busters you're either holding the WHM's best single target oGCD hostage or you're demanding a bunch of resources and/or GCD healing. Living dead is rubbish in any group, it's simply inferior to any other tank immune.

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Originally Posted by Izscha

Invincible moves are used to cheese or make fights easier, but nothing in the actual game requires you to invu anything or it fails.

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It's a piece of your toolkit. There are a lot of abilities in player toolkits that aren't absolutely necessary but are great because they make life easier if we utilize them well. The simple fact is that if 3 of 4 tanks have a powerful ability to handle tankbusters and the 4th tank has an inferior weaker version, that tank is comparatively worse off than the other tanks, even if they're "fine". A class can be viable but still bad.

I like FFXI dark knights

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Probably already mentioned, but DRK's are more along the lines of the game's vigilantes than they are death knights. They operate outside of any jurisdiction, and no one is exempt from their justice; so it isn't necessarily that DRKs are evil, but rather they are more adept and have the aptitude to do what is necessary to actually bring down true evil. However, due to their "dark" methods; they are often branded as evil.

The DRK questline is amazing, and explores a more troubled, but very human side to the WoL. It would only make sense that someone like the WoL would endure the kind of things the questline brings to the forefront, making it by far one of the most relatable in game.

I won't go too much into my own story here, but the "Am I turning evil?" thoughts had more to do with the entanglement with Esteem. There are probably several ways you can interpret Esteem and their role to the WoL. The way I did was that I wasn't losing myself to evil, but rather having an overwhelming feeling of being a slave to my own resolve, and having a very strong inner desire to just walk away from it all. However, to to do that and have that freedom would require that I abandon the very principles that make me, me. My friends, my fellow Scions, my duty.

Glad you're enjoying the job. Hopefully you'll continue to do so in EW.

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This was, in my opinion, the best explanation of a DRK I have seen so far.
Thank you for sharing/clearing this up. My lack of the English language prevented me from doing so.
Now I feel we both are correct from a certain point of view. In my case, it was more of a feeling I had from the experiences of playing a Death knight in WoW.

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Originally Posted by Aron73

This was, in my opinion, the best explanation of a DRK I have seen so far.
Thank you for sharing/clearing this up. My lack of the English language prevented me from doing so.
Now I feel we both are correct from a certain point of view. In my case, it was more of a feeling I had from the experiences of playing a Death knight in WoW.

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You would not keep small company in your views of DRK. The "evil" brand is part of their lore, but the DRK's themselves never consider themselves to be evil, and their methods are necessary for the greater good. Some say they lose their humanity to the abyss, and they would say, "If that is the cost to preserve justice, then so be it." They're very extreme, lol.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

Even if the healer knows what to do in an organized group, if you use LD to immune tank busters you're either holding the WHM's best single target oGCD hostage or you're demanding a bunch of resources and/or GCD healing. Living dead is rubbish in any group, it's simply inferior to any other tank immune.

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All tank invulns are inferior to Hallowed Ground. No ifs, ands, or butts about it. The devs need to finally realize that the tank invuln is a role skill. Please put it there and be done with this nonsense already.

Basically lore wise DRK are the FF version of Judge Dredd being judge, jury and executioner. They follow the idea that sin begets punishment no matter how mighty or protected you can be.

And yeah LD is not only a horrible skill, but also to add to the injury others like Superbolide are getting buffs while their kit being empowered with mitigation and self heals, meanwhile DRK gets Lolblation, I mean, what the hell are they thinking?

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Originally Posted by Izscha

And it will stay unchanged, because it's a damn good CD.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

You would not keep small company in your views of DRK. The "evil" brand is part of their lore, but the DRK's themselves never consider themselves to be evil, and their methods are necessary for the greater good. Some say they lose their humanity to the abyss, and they would say, "If that is the cost to preserve justice, then so be it." They're very extreme, lol.


All tank invulns are inferior to Hallowed Ground. No ifs, ands, or butts about it. The devs need to finally realize that the tank invuln is a role skill. Please put it there and be done with this nonsense already.

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Yes actually, there are if, ands, & butts.
Hallowed Ground has a cooldown of 420 seconds.

I'd take Holmang or Superbollide over it in almost any scenario save solo play.
The biggest advantage it had was that it had the longest duration of all the invulnerability skills, which will no longer be the case for Endwalker.

I understand hallowed ground could still very well be considered the overall best of the invulnerability skills due to having no drawbacks, but the gap between Living Dead and the rest in terms of of usefulness would still be far larger than Paladins invulnerability compared to the rest.

The last thing this game needs is more homogenization.
I'd much rather the 14 team NOT go the scorched earth approach when only one of 4 contemporary tank CDs has a genuine problem.

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Originally Posted by Tranquilmelody7

The last thing this game needs is more homogenization.

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Because why? When this word gets tossed around as much as it does, it sounds like an echo more than it does a valid argument. I don't see this to be the case of tank invuln skills in even the slightest. Trying to find niche ways for each tank to essentially do the same thing in this regard has got to be one of the biggest thorns in the side of this dev team. I never said Hallowed should stay at 420s, that within itself is ridiculous for any ability in this game. It would have to be adjusted to fit into a role skill, but it might as well be done at this point.

The invuln skill is very similar to tank LB3 as far as the intention behind its function, so there isn't much reason to try and find different ways to make it effective. If the devs made this choice, I am quite sure all kinds of players will be up in arms about it; but in the end they will adjust and everything will be just fine, and these silly arguments can finally be laid to rest.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Because why? When this word gets tossed around as much as it does, it sounds like an echo more than it does a valid argument.

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If you give every job everything then you could remove the jobs. Because why having jobs when there is no real difference between them? Tank, healer, magical DPS ans melee DPS would be enough.

Cheers

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Because why? When this word gets tossed around as much as it does, it sounds like an echo more than it does a valid argument. I don't see this to be the case of tank invuln skills in even the slightest. Trying to find niche ways for each tank to essentially do the same thing in this regard has got to be one of the biggest thorns in the side of this dev team. I never said Hallowed should stay at 420s, that within itself is ridiculous for any ability in this game. It would have to be adjusted to fit into a role skill, but it might as well be done at this point.

The invuln skill is very similar to tank LB3 as far as the intention behind its function, so there isn't much reason to try and find different ways to make it effective. If the devs made this choice, I am quite sure all kinds of players will be up in arms about it; but in the end they will adjust and everything will be just fine, and these silly arguments can finally be laid to rest.

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If the optimization of every single piece of content became completely job-agnostic, it would become extremely boring. Minor job and comp differences help to create more dynamic gameplay; The minor functional differences between invulns can be pretty important in spaces like Ultimate, as can their varied cooldowns.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Because why? When this word gets tossed around as much as it does, it sounds like an echo more than it does a valid argument. I don't see this to be the case of tank invuln skills in even the slightest. Trying to find niche ways for each tank to essentially do the same thing in this regard has got to be one of the biggest thorns in the side of this dev team. I never said Hallowed should stay at 420s, that within itself is ridiculous for any ability in this game. It would have to be adjusted to fit into a role skill, but it might as well be done at this point.

The invuln skill is very similar to tank LB3 as far as the intention behind its function, so there isn't much reason to try and find different ways to make it effective. If the devs made this choice, I am quite sure all kinds of players will be up in arms about it; but in the end they will adjust and everything will be just fine, and these silly arguments can finally be laid to rest.

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Let's delete everything beside PLD WHM DRG and BLM, you dont need all those useless jobs anyway so why bother ?

Good lord. Stop making things extreme. Seriously. "Omg just delete xx job!" Do you even hear yourself? It's just an invuln skill. Its already a niche skill being an ability exclusive to tanks. Much like Esuna for a on demand cleanse. Healers cried when this was made a role skill too. And guess what? The game is still doing fine. More than fine actually. So all evidence to the contrary about how bad and wrong such decisions have turned out.

Get over it. I really mean that.

"It's just" yeah like everything else that was deleted over the years "it's just" and that's why we got drk and war that are basically the same, jobs beings dumbed down for years now and why it sucks so much to play certains jobs and even more healers with their 1 button dps life.
But sure it's "only 1 skill" each single time :)

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Originally Posted by Gemina

Its already a niche skill being an ability exclusive to tanks. Much like Esuna for a on demand cleanse. Healers cried when this was made a role skill too. And guess what? The game is still doing fine. More than fine actually. So all evidence to the contrary about how bad and wrong such decisions have turned out.

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Esuna is an extremely niche ability that isn't even used in 99% of the games content. It was used in what, two serious encounters in the last 2+ years? I also don't remember a single person complaining when it was made a role-action; It was widely complained about under the old cross-class system because you needed to allocate a limited slot to it, despite very little content in the game actually necessitating its use.

Tank invulns are used multiple times in virtually every savage and ultimate encounter, and often in EX content. They're an incredibly core part of how tank mitigation is optimized. Simplifying them makes the game less interactive for no reason what-so-ever. Holmgang, Hallowed Ground, and Superbolide all successfully fill different niches without any of them feeling particularly terrible. Living Dead simply needs to be brought up to speed with the other three.

Honestly though, if you really think Hallowed Ground is the undisputed best invuln in the game, it's a strong indication that you don't have enough knowledge or experience around tanking to be proposing these kinds of 'solutions'.

Hallowed Ground and Holmgang work perfectly fine as they are. Superbolide could use a minor tweak, it'd be nice if the invuln was applied before kicking you down to one HP; I've had a few cases where, due to weird timing or lag on server ticks, I've taken a hit in between and gotten killed using it. Still perfectly serviceable (and great for giving new healers a heart attack), just a rare annoyance.

Living Dead can still be useful in a group that knows what they're doing, but it's by far the worst invuln of the four. No idea why someone thought that a skill that literally kills you if someone else isn't on their toes was a good idea.

https://i.imgflip.com/5u79m4.jpg

Tbf idk if gnb will be have a good heal but it's still better than drk

I pity those who didnt play launch drk it was awesome
literally one combo now

F

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Originally Posted by _Pigzig

I pity those who didnt play launch drk it was awesome
literally one combo now

F

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Our boy. Look how they murdered our boy...

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Originally Posted by Gemina

You would not keep small company in your views of DRK. The "evil" brand is part of their lore, but the DRK's themselves never consider themselves to be evil, and their methods are necessary for the greater good. Some say they lose their humanity to the abyss, and they would say, "If that is the cost to preserve justice, then so be it." They're very extreme, lol.


All tank invulns are inferior to Hallowed Ground. No ifs, ands, or butts about it. The devs need to finally realize that the tank invuln is a role skill. Please put it there and be done with this nonsense already.

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In normal circumstances, I would agree with you but this company is far from what people think/believe. When my book is done I will put it on this forum for you all to read

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Originally Posted by LittleImp

Honestly though, if you really think Hallowed Ground is the undisputed best invuln in the game, it's a strong indication that you don't have enough knowledge or experience around tanking to be proposing these kinds of 'solutions'.

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If we didn't look at cooldowns, they'd be right. Full invuln, no risk, no downside to it. Looking at the cooldowns, it's brought in line with the others simply due to the fact that the cooldown is so long that you get to use it maybe...once a fight?

Usually twice I think. I know I had to use it twice when cleaning min ilv Bahamut with some friends. But it's a 7 min CD and sometimes it requires the off-tank to play around it.

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Originally Posted by Hysorn

Usually twice I think. I know I had to use it twice when cleaning min ilv Bahamut with some friends. But it's a 7 min CD and sometimes it requires the off-tank to play around it.

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I think Adam Driver is right. Too bad dork night's invuln is so rarely useful in any content, unlike hallowed which I sometimes use just for giggles.


Still the best tank tank class in the game, though.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

If we didn't look at cooldowns, they'd be right. Full invuln, no risk, no downside to it. Looking at the cooldowns, it's brought in line with the others simply due to the fact that the cooldown is so long that you get to use it maybe...once a fight?

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In a vacuum, yes.
The fact is the CD is 7 minutes.
Heck, right now I'd say it's the best outside of high end content due to having the longest duration.

The 2 second buff may not seem like much for Holmang and Superbollide, but it really is great.

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Originally Posted by Izscha

Let's delete everything beside PLD WHM DRG and BLM, you dont need all those useless jobs anyway so why bother ?

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For different glamour and animations and general aesthetics, of course.

Got my Dark Knight to 50.

I like the but... Warrior feels so much better - especially in ohshiz situations when the Healer is having trouble.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Got my Dark Knight to 50.

I like the but... Warrior feels so much better - especially in ohshiz situations when the Healer is having trouble.

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The Dark knight has also ohhshizz buttons. But you get them later.

Cheers

Seems they should re-arrange when to get them as it felt so off compared to Warrior in these early levels.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Seems they should re-arrange when to get them as it felt so off compared to Warrior in these early levels.

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Which is part of my complaint for Oblation (10% damage mitigation with 2 charges) being level 82. If it was level 48, it'd help out a lot while we don't have TBN. But level 82...after we've gotten all our mitigation tools already? Kinda pointless.

might as well just remove Dark mind and put Oblation in its place

To be fair, most jobs could stand to get some skills earlier. DRK's hardly alone.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

To be fair, most jobs could stand to get some skills earlier. DRK's hardly alone.

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While true, DRK is sadly the tank that suffers the most from this though. Our biggest mitigation tool isn't until level 70, our party mitigation isn't until level 76, and we essentially have 1 less mitigation tool in general unless the enemies are using magic.

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Originally Posted by RyuDragnier

While true, DRK is sadly the tank that suffers the most from this though. Our biggest mitigation tool isn't until level 70, our party mitigation isn't until level 76, and we essentially have 1 less mitigation tool in general unless the enemies are using magic.

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Yeah 1-69 our personal mitigation is mostly 1-2-3 Souleater Combo spam & Rampart and Shadow Wall CDs. Abyssal Drain on large packs Once every 60s for measly 200 Potency heal per Target, useless on Single Target fights.

Dark Mind is Magic Only, super niched and most threats aside from very tiny few specific encounters 1-69 that actually pose a real threat are Non-Magic anyway. And DRK Players wanting to maximize Dark Mind utility have to do Extra Work Google Searching, researching, figuring out from texts, logs what specific targets and their specific attacks are magical vs physical.

Can't help but laugh when i see the whole "I am Dark Knight, so i am evil edgy boy!" thing roll around.

Dark Knights are not Death Knights.

Theme, weapon options, & dark armor are about all they have in common, & once you get further, you'll see what lights the flame for a Dark Knight to take up the mantel.

Spoilers: Dark Knight Job quest 50+

As i have always seen it,(& later proven correct by those damn moogles) A Dark Knight is all about sacrifice & conviction. Love is what makes a Dark Knight do what others fear to do, love is what guides us to the darker, more brutal, & sometimes questionable power we use to protect others.

Few Dark Knights will grow old, fewer still will ever die peacefully in bed surrounded family & friends sharing stories of glory & comradery. However glory was never the reason why we do what we do when it needed to be done. There is no guild for Dark Knights, no order or brotherhood, just the vow, the vow that there is someone who needs to be protected no matter the cost to our reputation, body, or life.

It never means we don't feel the guilt of our actions, if anything we carry the burden willingly, after all, it weighs as it should, but to keep those we care for safe, reaching through the dark flames is a thing we do smiling, burning the whole way, knowing the guilt will follow, holding the burden as we should.

I'll never be able to see a Death Knight who gains power from another's suffering is anything like a Dark Knight who sacrifices themselves for power to save their cherished ones the same.

After all, one needs only remember: "Serve...Save...Slave...Slay..." Fray Myste.

Always remember what the Dark Knight soul stone is. It maybe be jagged & have abit of scars, but in the end it's still there.
https://nitter.pussthecat.org/pic/me...3Fname%3Dsmall

Justice demands no less.

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Originally Posted by Drkdays

I think Adam Driver is right. Too bad dork night's invuln is so rarely useful in any content, unlike hallowed which I sometimes use just for giggles.


Still the best tank tank class in the game, though.

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Crap, you ruined my character, I can't stop seeing that whiny Sith wannabe Kylo Ren now.

Yeah... I don't like Dark Mind. It seems so situational and bad compared to what the other Tanks get.

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Originally Posted by Tanis_Ebonhart

Got my Dark Knight to 50.

I like the but... Warrior feels so much better - especially in ohshiz situations when the Healer is having trouble.

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Yeah, cannot help but agree with this. Warrior is by far much easier on healers.

Dark Knight unfortunately does not start to feel complete until about level 72, when it gets Stalwart Soul. Until then, you unfortunately won’t have a full glimpse into what the job is capable of. Usually about level 74 is when it all starts to flow together for folks.

But yes, the job feels clunky until then. Disjointed, and incomplete. It’s a bit frustrating.

I’m an old school Dark Knight player. Back in FFXI and now FFXIV. In Heavensward, Dark Knight very much felt like a tank that willingly endured insufferable amounts of pain and gave back that pain in equal measures. Dark Dance, Blood Price, Reprisal, Dark Arts, and other skills gave Dark Knight this sense of being a tank that just grew relentlessly full of fury and hatred and would use the pain delivered to it to strike back in equal measure. Reprisal being triggered upon a successful parry for example, or Dark Price fueling your mana for every painful hit you took.

The job was glorious back then, and was a sheer joy to play.


Then came Stormblood, and now Shadowbringers. I didn’t mind ShB Dark Knight so much. Stormblood, I detested, the dark arts spam drove me insane, yet still I endured.


But with Endwalker, and seeing what the other tanks got, and knowing what our identity once was, that of a tank fueled by pain that would mete out equal or even greater punishment as it’s identity long since being gone, disheartens me.

I will wait to see what final patch notes bring. But Drk needs a ground up rework, IMO, and if the job is not corrected by end of 6.0, I likely will hang up tanking altogether and move on to Reaper, which will feel more like FFXI Dark Knight to me I feel, than our current iteration in this game.