A request for Endwalker Dungeons (No more Undertuned)

It's almost like there should be different difficulty modes for players who prefer a greater challenge.

Oh wait.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Can we PLEASE not get undertuned dungeons anymore? Matoyas Relict comes to mind. This is just, in my opinion, incredibly boring. Everything dies pretty much immediately and there isn't any serious risk. That's all.

Thanks for coming to my Talk.

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Good luck. People can't even do crystal tower with all the ilvl advantages and how nerfed the content is without complaining. There's absolutely zero chance of them ever making regular MSQ dungeons more challenging.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

What you see here on the forum, and what you see in the game, are two completely different worlds.

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Hahaha true that.
I just got out of a run of Orbonne where (without wiping) everyone in every alliance died at least once.
Heck, we lost about 8 people across the 3 alliances on the first trash pack.
Brutal.
And no one was new to the duty.

Yeah, sometimes I need a run like that to remind me what real FF14 roulettes are actually like outside my static haha..

Cuz like, Orbonne isn't really punishing anymore.
It just has nice mechanical variety.
But even that looks like it can be asking too much.

I had an almost wipe in Ultima Weapon yesterday. You can't make that up. Both healers had to wait for the elevator, and when we made it to the group, most of them were already dead. Some already running back, some stayed on the ground and went afk, some still kiting.

There was at least one first timer in the team, so for someone, this was a mandatory step of the MSQ.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

I had an almost wipe in Ultima Weapon yesterday. You can't make that up. Both healers had to wait for the elevator, and when we made it to the group, most of them were already dead. Some already running back, some stayed on the ground and went afk, some still kiting.

There was at least one first timer in the team, so for someone, this was a mandatory step of the MSQ.

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Don't see a problem honestly. Every game in the world has harder sections that people struggle with. I guess FFXIV just needs to hand everything out free to everyone at all times though.

It's a FF game, story is king. The MSQ locks most content away, it has to be done, and some things are dependent on other players.

Until they make every dungeon trust compatible, they won't get any harder.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

What you see here on the forum, and what you see in the game, are two completely different worlds.
You'd think, reading these forums, that everyone playing this game is extremely skilled, and the dungeons are too easy.
Then you log into the game, do a roulette, and the tank doesn't know what a cooldown is, the healer hard-casts Cure I, and the DPS stand in the bad.

Dungeons are part of the story, and as long as that's the case, they can't be harder.
For balance, not the extremely skilled elite, made up of forum posters, but the actual player community in game is relevant.

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I honestly wish I could like this comment more. I've been saying this for years. Not only here, but other MMOs I play which have similar takes.

The forum community is always elite players who never, ever make a mistake in anything, and they always want the game to be INCREDIBLY hard, punishing and unforgiving. Maybe even permanent death, or that the very least the loss of all your stuff (which some old MMOs used to do.)

Thank god the forum community in almost any game makes up such a tiny fraction of the overall playerbase. There is a reason AAA MMOs have mostly easy dungeons.

It's because the age of the average gamer in the US today is 35 years old. And most have families now. This isn't 2005 anymore. Most people that started playing old school games are now adults. They play a couple hours a night or whenever they can sneak some time in. They don't want to spend time figuring out crazy hard dungeons.

More so in a Final Fantasy game, where story is king.

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Originally Posted by ItMe

Hahaha true that.
I just got out of a run of Orbonne where (without wiping) everyone in every alliance died at least once.
Heck, we lost about 8 people across the 3 alliances on the first trash pack.
Brutal.
And no one was new to the duty.

Yeah, sometimes I need a run like that to remind me what real FF14 roulettes are actually like outside my static haha..

Cuz like, Orbonne isn't really punishing anymore.
It just has nice mechanical variety.
But even that looks like it can be asking too much.

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Most if not all duties people have complained about being too hard are ones that required people to actually do mechanics to clear.

The 2 party duties that stand out were that one at the start of HW with the dragon crossing the bridge that basically was the entrance into actually doing HW or going to those areas and the other was Shinryu normal at the end of the initial Stormblood MSQ that needed to be cleared to start the actual endgame at that time or even access the tomestone vendors. The others I remember seeing were solo MSQ duties that also had mechanics that had to be completed or it would fail.

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Originally Posted by Shironeko_Narunyan

It's a FF game, story is king. The MSQ locks most content away, it has to be done, and some things are dependent on other players.

Until they make every dungeon trust compatible, they won't get any harder.

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I dunno, the final boss of ffviir was pretty challenging even on normal.

Hard was well... Harder.

In fact, most final fantasy games have had difficult story fights.

Yunalesca and Seymour in X, for instance. Several xiii bosses, a large amount of original 7 bosses....

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I dunno, the final boss of ffviir was pretty challenging even on normal.

Hard was well... Harder.

In fact, most final fantasy games have had difficult story fights.

Yunalesca and Seymour in X, for instance. Several xiii bosses, a large amount of original 7 bosses....

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The bosses in FF7R provided a decent challenge overall while not being too over the top like Dark Souls and the like. It was a very rewarding experience. I'll admit that I never tried hard mode, but normal mode was more my speed I think.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Just want to say that this wasn't intended to turn into a discussion about difficulty modes, casual players vs 'elite', etc. I just want Dungeons where the packs don't die pretty much instantly. That's it.

I will say there were some neat ideas to have environmental challenges, such as a remix of the Tonberry that follows you, the hallway in the nier raid, etc. or to bring in 'harder' dungeons as optional unlocks. I'm all for those!

Again, I'm not asking for dungeons to become some hellish mode people can't complete. I just want to not be bored out of my mind because the packs are dead after a few AOES.

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Original pharos Sirius before nerfs was probably the best dungeon.

Unfortunately, people rebelled. Many refused to unlock it, people would insta leave, etc.

And it wasn't even that hard, assuming you followed mechanics. My friends and I were very confused when we found out people were leaving lol...

Honestly, minimum ilvl dungeons would probably feel more difficult. I've long said leveling dungeons are more difficult than max level ones because of the stricter syncing.

3.0 and 4.0 had some of the hardest hitting mobs in leveling dungeons.

The faster trash dies, the better. If they don't give EXP anymore then I'm not interested in spending any more time on them than necessary. I'd like some more interesting boss mechanics though, or possibly more bosses per dungeon that push players to use their kit properly.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

Those were bad. So, so bad. They definitely weren't for the faint of heart.

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I've only gotten them maybe... 7 or 8 times, but I only had any disbands one of those times. The rest were all pretty smooth. Certainly better than some of the Cata dungeons following the level squish.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

I've only gotten them maybe... 7 or 8 times, but I only had any disbands one of those times. The rest were all pretty smooth. Certainly better than some of the Cata dungeons following the level squish.

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My experience was pretty rough with them when they were first released. I got through a fair number of them but it took a couple hours at least. Sometimes it took longer than that. It was quite the learning curve for a lot of people. Dealing with Wrath dungeons prior to Cata and the horrors they brought initially were like night and day. I'm always up for a bit of a challenge, but not at that cost. Dungeons, even heroics, should have never been that difficult. The devs really messed up there, and it set the wrong tone for Cata. Cata in general gets a lot of crap but I think it is usually for the wrong reasons. As far as dungeons go...that hate was deserved, at least at launch. And for the revamped troll raids. They learned their lesson I think, since Karazhan's dungeon in Legion left the old raid intact and introduced a new one in 5 man form. They even went and added heroic dungeon versions of it later on. It was frustrating to get through on mythic difficulty but I found it fun enough.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I'm well aware. Just because they're story focused doesn't preclude them from having some measure of teeth. No one is asking for Extreme or Savage level difficulty here but for mobs to require more than a pulse. When a tank can entirely solo a dungeon meant for four players, it's utterly ridiculous.

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The second an MSQ story dungeon (including max-level story dungeons) becomes too hard for players to get through because of 'teeth', there will be a max exodus of players who quit because of frustration.

Sounds ideal? Wildstar called and wants you back.

There was a time where mass pulling required more awareness about the jobs you play and they could be pretty dangerous so you wanted to use your kit to the maximun to survive some of them and that was a lot of fun, bosses use to be more than simplified mechanics with more punisheable mechanics and such, and of course the Ilvl use to be more tunned so you didn't awfully overlevel the dungeon like now.

Im not surprised ppl come with coments like "it's locked with the MQS so it have to be like that" and "there is other conent if you want challenge" aka the 4 instanced bosses we get every 6+ months but they have to understand it's not about make Dungeons super hard, it's never been about that, its about don't make Dungeons super braindead wich is not the same, stop threating ppl like they are so dumb they can't handle a proper learning curve with dungeons.

Picture what you want, if people in a random queue system has hard content. That people do on a daily basis. Do you know how tedious that would be?


If it is part of a queue in and do system for daily rewards it should be fast simple and no risk. I don't want to do dungeons that take a ton of time and requires thinking as a daily chore.

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Originally Posted by shao32

There was a time where mass pulling required more awareness about the jobs you play

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There was a time when some jobs didn't get an AoE until they reached level 40+, and the toolkits of members of an instance were such that one had to be a wee bit more careful about pulling large numbers of enemies. There was a time when the maximum iLevel was 130, and most people were happy to be sitting around 70 or 80. That was when mass pulling required awareness, which didn't stop tanks from ignoring things like "you know, if I have 9 mobs all doing their AoEs in this circle around me, perhaps the two melee DPS will die before they get a chance to whittle them down".

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Picture what you want, if people in a random queue system has hard content. That people do on a daily basis. Do you know how tedious that would be?


If it is part of a queue in and do system for daily rewards it should be fast simple and no risk. I don't want to do dungeons that take a ton of time and requires thinking as a daily chore.

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dungeons being so easy that you literally dont even need a healer to complete them is what makes them tedious and a chore. i have exponentially more fun doing bardams mettle or the vault than doing anything in expert or 567 roulette.

The least they could do is not mislead the player by naming it something like "expert" roulette. Blatant lie, pretty much every dungeon prior to expert roulette is harder than any dungeon in expert roulette.

And yeah higher difficulty modes should be introduced like every other game.

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Originally Posted by Vahlnir

My experience was pretty rough with them when they were first released. I got through a fair number of them but it took a couple hours at least. Sometimes it took longer than that. It was quite the learning curve for a lot of people. Dealing with Wrath dungeons prior to Cata and the horrors they brought initially were like night and day. I'm always up for a bit of a challenge, but not at that cost. Dungeons, even heroics, should have never been that difficult.

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Ahh, man, I'm just going to have to disagree with that one, I'm sorry to say. I loved Cata Heroics.

That said, I can understand why they'd be a bit much for some, even if I ended up even no-tanking or no-healing a few of them by the end, and commonly got through them even with DPS doing damage that'd have been slightly low even for a Normal mode run.

Granted, if they just hadn't allowed us to so overgear WotLK Heroics, I'd have been fine with them, too, even if the bulk of the difficulty back then was from people not knowing their rotations. The difference between their apparent difficulty on a fresh 80 and a year into WotLK were night and day, at least until the pre-ICC dungeon trio.

And Legion's Return to Karazhan was pretty brilliant, imo, when at-level. Mythic 0, especially.

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Originally Posted by DPZ2

There was a time when some jobs didn't get an AoE until they reached level 40+, and the toolkits of members of an instance were such that one had to be a wee bit more careful about pulling large numbers of enemies. There was a time when the maximum iLevel was 130, and most people were happy to be sitting around 70 or 80. That was when mass pulling required awareness, which didn't stop tanks from ignoring things like "you know, if I have 9 mobs all doing their AoEs in this circle around me, perhaps the two melee DPS will die before they get a chance to whittle them down".

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I dunno, I remember doing giant pulls at ilvl 90 in WP and AK back when there was only 2.0 and no patches.

You used to be able to do sub 15 minute WP runs that way.

And that's back when max ilvl was in fact, ilvl90.

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Originally Posted by Valkyrie_Lenneth

I dunno, I remember doing giant pulls at ilvl 90 in WP and AK back when there was only 2.0 and no patches.

You used to be able to do sub 15 minute WP runs that way.

And that's back when max ilvl was in fact, ilvl90.

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You could do it at min ilvl, even. Granted, WP used to be done with lock-out exploits and AK with sac runs.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Picture what you want, if people in a random queue system has hard content. That people do on a daily basis. Do you know how tedious that would be?

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That is such a garbage excuse. Do you know how tedious dungeons are that are so easy? They are mind numbingly boring.

And hard dungeons would at least offer different mechanics. Easy dungeons offer no mechanics. You just stand in everything without a care in the world. Totally not tedious.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Ahh, man, I'm just going to have to disagree with that one, I'm sorry to say. I loved Cata Heroics.

That said, I can understand why they'd be a bit much for some, even if I ended up even no-tanking or no-healing a few of them by the end, and commonly got through them even with DPS doing damage that'd have been slightly low even for a Normal mode run.

Granted, if they just hadn't allowed us to so overgear WotLK Heroics, I'd have been fine with them, too, even if the bulk of the difficulty back then was from people not knowing their rotations. The difference between their apparent difficulty on a fresh 80 and a year into WotLK were night and day, at least until the pre-ICC dungeon trio.

And Legion's Return to Karazhan was pretty brilliant, imo, when at-level. Mythic 0, especially.

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I would have loved those heroics...if others were up capable of actually doing them. 99% of the time they were not, so I gave up out of frustration after awhile. It came down to whether the time investment was worth the effort or not. I personally felt it wasn't. Maybe it was just bad luck. Maybe it wasn't. My experiences were probably different from someone else's somewhere regardless.

You see, people say: it's got to be easy to appeal to casuals.
Well, there is easy, and then there is FFXIV easy...
You know what also appeals to a broad audience trying to appeal instantly to everyone? Call of Duty and Candy Crush. Good games, good MMOs specially, are and ACQUIRED taste, not something made to automatically appeal to everyone (which just results in ultimate lack of challenge and personality). FFXI thrived for years and years, even being one of the most popular MMOs at some point and it never needed to introduce braindead content in order to achieve that.

When your game is easier than WoW, you're doing something very wrong (talking about normal dungeons, open world content and solo play here).

Players whom like a challenge are basically forced to play trough hours of boring braindead autoplay content, it's really not fair at all. People want FFXIV to be like a cellphone game? Because that's what it slowly seems to be turning into now a days.

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Originally Posted by Roda

Counterpoint. Dungeons are mandatory, and if you want your mandatory content to be the main content representing your game, you don't want it to be repetitive and dull. And after 8 years worth of dungeon content, the pretty reskins of the same dungeon format has gotten stale as hell.

"Interesting" doesn't have to mean "difficult." It just means shake up the format a little.

I would be much less likely to expect speedruns in my dungeons if getting the dungeon over with as fast as possible wasn't the most interesting interaction I could do with the instance.

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Wouldn't it be awesome to have 3 different scenarios for dungeons set on random or even more? I don't think difficulty is the real problem. Making the same encounter on different maps or different reactions by the boss. Trash packs I could care less about. It would be a lot of work for the devs but I think it would be the first of it's kind.

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Originally Posted by Fabbro

You see, people say: it's got to be easy to appeal to casuals.
Well, there is easy, and then there is FFXIV easy...
You know what also appeals to a broad audience trying to appeal instantly to everyone? Call of Duty and Candy Crush. Good games, good MMOs specially, are and ACQUIRED taste, not something made to automatically appeal to everyone (which just results in ultimate lack of challenge and personality). FFXI thrived for years and years, even being one of the most popular MMOs at some point and it never needed to introduce braindead content in order to achieve that.

When your game is easier than WoW, you're doing something very wrong (talking about normal dungeons, open world content and solo play here).

Players whom like a challenge are basically forced to play trough hours of boring braindead autoplay content, it's really not fair at all. People want FFXIV to be like a cellphone game? Because that's what it slowly seems to be turning into now a days.

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The MMOs of the past simply don't work as well today. That is why you see more...evolved games which are typically a bit more casual all around. FF XIV is just that. It is the modern MMORPG incarnate, which sets itself apart from the rest by being an RPG with some MMO elements. WoW is stuck in the past more often than not. Legion was the most recent expansion where they got just about everything right. It had something for everyone. Then...well, things declined fast. Why? They were worried more about the time played metrics than making a fun game to play (which would have kept people in the game!). They also decided that the hardcore crowd was the most important, which alienated casual players everywhere. The last thing any company should want to do is alienate their core player base. SE does not do that with FF XIV, and that is easily the best thing they could do, especially right now. And they are doubling down on it like they always do. I'm all for some challenging content. I really am. But turning back the clock with content design will do more harm than good. This game was never hard to begin with though (ARR onward at least), even with playing most jobs, so I'm not really sure where people get this from. There is also content available for people to challenge themselves, aka Extreme, Savage and Ultimate. Either way, the time of the hardcore was over ages ago. It is best to adapt and move on. The devs know what type of game they want it to be, and they don't want it to be overly difficult in any way, shape or form for the majority of the player base (their core base). I used to raid pretty heavily in WoW. My hardcore days were behind me years ago. FF XIV is a good "retirement home" for me.

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Originally Posted by Snorky

Wouldn't it be awesome to have 3 different scenarios for dungeons set on random or even more? I don't think difficulty is the real problem. Making the same encounter on different maps or different reactions by the boss. Trash packs I could care less about. It would be a lot of work for the devs but I think it would be the first of it's kind.

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I've always had this thought of a dungeon that rotates between 4 different phases as opppsing factions rotate their claim on the area, while the fates around the entrance rotate with it. (Say week 1, faction A claims the territory and you are there to weaken their hold, week 2, faction B sieges it now that A is vulnerable and you are there to create chaos, week 3, B claims the area, and week 4 A attempts to retake it.) Allows for a lot of asset and mechanics reuse, but you get a different experience each week for a month because of how the mechanics overlap and interact.

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Originally Posted by Roda

I've always had this thought of a dungeon that rotates between 4 different phases as opppsing factions rotate their claim on the area, while the fates around the entrance rotate with it. (Say week 1, faction A claims the territory and you are there to weaken their hold, week 2, faction B sieges it now that A is vulnerable and you are there to create chaos, week 3, B claims the area, and week 4 A attempts to retake it.) Allows for a lot of asset and mechanics reuse, but you get a different experience each week for a month because of how the mechanics overlap and interact.

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I'd kind of like sections in the general 4 player duties that don't feature a gimmick enemy blocking progress and just has groups of normal enemies to actually have random enemy spawns where the things that appear and the quantities of enemies could be different each time you did the duty.

I was watching Preach talk about how he is enjoying the <50 dungeons because they have all these little extra mechanics to do and side areas to explore and discover and how he was excited to see how it would improve. And all I could think was how sad I was because all they did was remove those nice little extra things in favour of making a big corridor of trash boss trash boss trash boss. Because people seemingly couldn't deal with taking a wrong turn on their first run I guess? Shame. I wish they would bring back the exploring to dungeons. Because as they stand now they are just so linear and dull. The story they are in, what you see is all nice sure. But I would like to actually have something to discover, to get lost and find my way etc. FFXIV really doesn't have much in the way of exploring at all honestly and it's sad.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Can we PLEASE not get undertuned dungeons anymore? Matoyas Relict comes to mind. This is just, in my opinion, incredibly boring. Everything dies pretty much immediately and there isn't any serious risk. That's all.

Thanks for coming to my Talk.

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Dungeons aren't undertuned, we're overgeared for them.

Wait until the next expansion hits and the leveling dungeons will hit tanks like a truck, especially if they're not keeping their gear up to date.

If you want a dungeon you can explore and get meaningful rewards for doing so, play deep dungeon. That way we can have levelling dungeons for a more cinematic story experience/tunnel and deep dungeons for people who want to explore. Side areas in regular dungeons only have trash mobs (that will no longer give exp) or chests that have potions in them.

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Originally Posted by Aelin_Ashryver

I was watching Preach talk about how he is enjoying the <50 dungeons because they have all these little extra mechanics to do and side areas to explore and discover and how he was excited to see how it would improve. And all I could think was how sad I was because all they did was remove those nice little extra things in favour of making a big corridor of trash boss trash boss trash boss. Because people seemingly couldn't deal with taking a wrong turn on their first run I guess? Shame. I wish they would bring back the exploring to dungeons. Because as they stand now they are just so linear and dull. The story they are in, what you see is all nice sure. But I would like to actually have something to discover, to get lost and find my way etc. FFXIV really doesn't have much in the way of exploring at all honestly and it's sad.

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Because they aren't nice. They are cool exactly once and then a headache every other time thereafter. I do not understand this sentiment. What is so exciting about your tank getting lost and taking a wrong turn in totorak and your reward is... extra boring trash in one of the worst dungeons in the game? And practically, all those side paths may as well not exist because people will figure out the fastest means through a place and that trickles down pretty quick through the games playerbase. People had Qarn, Darkhold, Totorak and Cutters cry figured out by the end of the first month of ARR launch and you'd almost never blunder down one of those side routes anyway, at which point they don't serve any purpose.

Same deal with the Qarn puzzle. Like I think it's neat but the reality isn't 4 sprouts staring at the scales intently, trying to solve the puzzle, it's someone checking a wiki for the answer or someone that has already done it and knows the answer. The little mystique these things grant on first encountering them is not worth the tedium they produce on repeat encounters in the future.

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Originally Posted by aveyond-dreams

If you want a dungeon you can explore and get meaningful rewards for doing so, play deep dungeon. That way we can have levelling dungeons for a more cinematic story experience/tunnel and deep dungeons for people who want to explore. Side areas in regular dungeons only have trash mobs (that will no longer give exp) or chests that have potions in them.

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Majority of people don't "explore" deep dungeons. They're just used as a leveling tool to get exp on DoW/DoM jobs. As such it's basically rush rush rush to get to the boss asap.

They could change the formula going forward to have side areas either contain more loot chests or mechanics that would make later parts of the duty easier. In the case of the latter it would be a choice of taking the time to do it the easy way or clenching your cheeks as you try running straight to the end.

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Originally Posted by Xaphire

While I do understand the desire for more challenging, lower player count content - regular roulette (despite being called expert roulette) will not be the place it is added. I know people don't like when other MMOs are referenced, but the early heroic dungeons in World of Warcraft's cataclysm expansion tried to bring back more challenging mechanics to its dungeon content and what happened was a tier of content that couldn't be completed by casuals, players sitting in queues for 40 minutes for a one-in-five chance of being able to clear the assigned dungeon.

The developer team has said in the past that they want dungeon content to be easily accessible to all the player base, which is a big part of why it isn't particularly challenging. The average skill level of players is surprisingly low.

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Cata heroics I think were the right way to go for Blizzard. The problem came from coming out of WotLK where we were face rolling heroics and ignoring mechanics left and right. People got used to that and the second something actually posed a threat and they had to read a mechanic, they started to cry. It's why WoW is the way it is now.

But idk how much harder they can make dungeons. They reuse the same mechanics over and over and over so much so that nothing seems like a curveball anymore. Even if you do get hit by something new it barely hurts and it's pretty clear what you have to do to avoid it since SE pretty much spells it out for you.

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Originally Posted by Kyrj

Cata heroics I think were the right way to go for Blizzard. The problem came from coming out of WotLK where we were face rolling heroics and ignoring mechanics left and right. People got used to that and the second something actually posed a threat and they had to read a mechanic, they started to cry. It's why WoW is the way it is now.

But idk how much harder they can make dungeons. They reuse the same mechanics over and over and over so much so that nothing seems like a curveball anymore. Even if you do get hit by something new it barely hurts and it's pretty clear what you have to do to avoid it since SE pretty much spells it out for you.

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This game has already had it's share of people crying because they had to do mechanics. In HW and SB there were 8 player duties that were nerfed due to players claiming it "gated" content because they were failing it repeatedly due to people wanting to be carried and basically refusing to grow as a player. They'd also nerfed a number of mechanic centered solo MSQ duties as well after people started listing every condition they could find on web md they could claim as an excuse to why they are incapable of doing a mechanic.

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Because they aren't nice. They are cool exactly once and then a headache every other time thereafter. I do not understand this sentiment. What is so exciting about your tank getting lost and taking a wrong turn in totorak and your reward is... extra boring trash in one of the worst dungeons in the game? And practically, all those side paths may as well not exist because people will figure out the fastest means through a place and that trickles down pretty quick through the games playerbase. People had Qarn, Darkhold, Totorak and Cutters cry figured out by the end of the first month of ARR launch and you'd almost never blunder down one of those side routes anyway, at which point they don't serve any purpose.

Same deal with the Qarn puzzle. Like I think it's neat but the reality isn't 4 sprouts staring at the scales intently, trying to solve the puzzle, it's someone checking a wiki for the answer or someone that has already done it and knows the answer. The little mystique these things grant on first encountering them is not worth the tedium they produce on repeat encounters in the future.

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Majority of people don't "explore" deep dungeons. They're just used as a leveling tool to get exp on DoW/DoM jobs. As such it's basically rush rush rush to get to the boss asap.

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So what I'm getting from this whole conversation is: for content in FF14 to be capable of supporting quality exploration... it needs to both be decoupled from levelling and needs to (somehow) discourage players from running it repeatedly (thus reducing the desire for it to be streamlined).

What kind of content like this would they be able to make?

Deep dungeon's lack of exploration participation isn't because it's leveling content.

People don't explore it because "what's at the end of this hallway" is ALWAYS answered by "a square room with a handful of mobs."

The only new scenery or encounters are experienced through advancing through the levels, which means it's just a slightly fancier straight hallway.

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Originally Posted by Fabbro

Agreed. Everything in this game, except for a few things like savages and extremes for example is just WAY to easy, like cellphone level of easy, like kids game easy. Please make normal and hard dungeons at least twice as hard. Also: trash mobs shouldn't exist, please make trash mobs actually require a little bit a of tactic, care to pull, and give them some dangerous AOEs, nothing boss level, but make "trash" dungeon bosses a challenge, be creative, otherwise: why bother?

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No thanks. I am casual player and I don't want to get stuck in dugeon trying to complete MSQ
Not all of us live in this game. We got life outside.