Each expansion I get hyped and also worried about more skills.

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Originally Posted by Wolwosh

I think some jobs have to few skills. I really don't get this mentality..
So many people love DNC/WHM/DRK/MCH, but I find it really boring because you have like 1 hotbar..
If we getva 321 button combo for example one day in pve i'm out, i'll find some other game that doesn't cater to babies

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I don't understand why more buttons necessarily means more skill?

If rotations ever DID get simplified they could put that skill requirement into, say, less choreographed encounter designs.

I mean World of WarCraft and Elder Scrolls online both have much simpler rotations than FFXIV with much fewer buttons but both games are widely considered harder than FFXIV.

In Burning Crusade Classic some classes have literally a one or two button rotation but some guilds are still struggling to down Magtheridon.

Give me more skills !! Not less !!!! I still miss aero III QQ

For how this game is setup with all the movements in fights. More skills is more tedious for me. I'm not going to speak for anyone else because that would be silly. As I respect people who want more skills and the game to be tougher.


I would not mind if the classes got cleaned up some and they did the pvp system with skills. That would be neat for sure. This game is all about the flashy fights, and movement. Having a complex rotation, or lots of buttons needing to smash takes away from it I feel. Also, if the developers said that many of the community is not that skilled. Making classes more tedious would just make it harder for people to learn.

The worst thing about shb is the basic combat that requires very little thought HW had it perfect besides the bard issue. I'd welcome like 5 more skills per job that were interesting, branch combos, etc. The skill ceiling needs raised.

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Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge

The worst thing about shb is the basic combat that requires very little thought HW had it perfect besides the bard issue. I'd welcome like 5 more skills per job that were interesting, branch combos, etc. The skill ceiling needs raised.

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I am remembering HW and HW Black Mage.

I shall be shortly sending you my therapy bills.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

....If, a few expansions from now, in FFXIV we all got reset but kept outfits, mounts, pets, titles, basically all cosmetics I would actually be okay with that.

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My ideal solution is that at the end of 6.0, we face off against the prime evil whatever and the only way we can put it down for good is to sacrifice all our WoL super powers into the final blow and afterwards live out our lives as regular strength adventurers solving less world-ending issues.

Still have room as GNB, no idea what you lot are on about.

How about we do not abandon the animation of our character?
Like you all seems to accept and got used to bard drawing the bow over and over and over and rarely fire them. (but you are actually shooting every single arrow you don't see firing)
Like your third machinist combo you 'cooly' jump mid air upside down, but half of the time you magically teleport yourself standing upright in the ground again just to do one of the 2 ogcd attack.

How about trying our best (or their best) to respect the animation. Like all machinist shooting skills re on regular gcd. All the ogcd attack are orders to the robot which the robot will do the animation, thus not cancelling the machinist animation. This could apply to summoners, reaper, or any job with pets or pet like things.

And melee class can have their ogcd gives aura type effect that does not simply cancel the main attack animination.

I know it is probably not workable, but I hate to see a game disrespects its own animation...

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

I don't understand why more buttons necessarily means more skill?

If rotations ever DID get simplified they could put that skill requirement into, say, less choreographed encounter designs.

I mean World of WarCraft and Elder Scrolls online both have much simpler rotations than FFXIV with much fewer buttons but both games are widely considered harder than FFXIV.

In Burning Crusade Classic some classes have literally a one or two button rotation but some guilds are still struggling to down Magtheridon.

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I'd add that FFXIV isn't a tab target game, it's combat may be in real time but it's definitely not full on ARPG. And if playing your action piano fingers were meant to be a "skillful" thing macros wouldn't exist.
Solo combos are just button bloat.

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Originally Posted by KarstenS

They have already cleaned up with skills with the release of every expansion

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The problem is when the skills that they "clean" allowed for more nuance, flexibility, or just generally more enjoyable gameplay (and often earlier) than what replaces it.

"So we lost X... just to get a more convoluted, less fun iteration... locked behind level (6 short of cap)? How's that a good thing?"

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

I don't understand why more buttons necessarily means more skill?
If rotations ever DID get simplified they could put that skill requirement into, say, less choreographed encounter designs.

I mean World of WarCraft and Elder Scrolls online both have much simpler rotations than FFXIV with much fewer buttons but both games are widely considered harder than FFXIV.
In Burning Crusade Classic some classes have literally a one or two button rotation but some guilds are still struggling to down Magtheridon.

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More buttons doesn't means more skill, look at AoE/Single Target variants. What's the decision behind "should I press X or Y?", the answer is always obvious if you know math and how the games works.
But more button can also means more execution skill. Compare MCH wildfire from HW/SB to Wildfire from ShB.

As far as I know, raiding in WoW is a gear check, not mechanic+dps check. Crusade classic was cleared a few days after release.
No matter if you press 1 at the same speed, players will have different outcomes based on their gear. Gear is easy to access in XIV.

People who find the button number tedious just don't have any button management skill.
It's up to them to better manage their hotbar, not to the others to reduce their fun.

Believe me if you were to spam 1, you would first be relieved but then bored really, really hard.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Believe me if you were to spam 1, you would first be relieved but then bored really, really hard.

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What gives you the authority to assume what people would think?

1 1 1 and 1 2 3 are both equally boring. There is absolutely no thought going into pressing 1 2 3 already.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlha

What gives you the authority to assume what people would think?

1 1 1 and 1 2 3 are both equally boring. There is absolutely no thought going into pressing 1 2 3 already.

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That's why it should be more complex. longer branching combos based on situation, proc, effects, would make the game infinitely more interesting.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlha

What gives you the authority to assume what people would think?

1 1 1 and 1 2 3 are both equally boring. There is absolutely no thought going into pressing 1 2 3 already.

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Oh, simply based on experience, not authority.

Can't you see DRK, WAR and MCH complaining about the spam? Or Healers bored to hell with 2 DPS abilities?
I follow you on that, 1 2 3 can be monotonous on tanks and MCH but that should be extended, not compressed in a single button.
Otherwise you'd get the same result but you'd manage to make it even more boring.

As things have been going, we all know they're not going to make the jobs more complicated. So, all things being the same regarding basic combos, I'd rather free up a few keybinds to actually add some interesting new abilities.

i strongly disagree ...

I play Gunbreaker, and i still would like 2 more skills..

A heal, and another cool skill. ...

I Dont remember if it was WOD or MOP, in wow where they did skill pruning, and felt horrible afterwards .....

In fact i am already criying about the stats squish .... (the bugs and all is crap, its just it takes more space on Databases)

I Want my character to feel ever more powerful... Not weaker ...

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Oh, simply based on experience, not authority.

Can't you see DRK, WAR and MCH complaining about the spam? Or Healers bored to hell with 2 DPS abilities?
I follow you on that, 1 2 3 can be monotonous on tanks and MCH but that should be extended, not compressed in a single button.
Otherwise you'd get the same result but you'd manage to make it even more boring.

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I agree that some skills could be improved ...

I Switched from Warrior to Gunbreaker, even though thematically i liked warrior more, simply because Gunbreaker's toolkit is more fun...

Yeah you still have the 1, 2, 3, but in Gunbreaker's case at least, not only you open 4-7,5-8,6-9 (with 7,8,9 being oGCD on Continuation), but you also have two instants (a single attack and aoe one) and when the whole 4,5,6 > 7,8,9... at least you get Burst Strike to "discharge" cartridges... and on your 1,2,3 there is also mini game, as in 2 heals you, and 3 gives you a cartridge... Besides that you also get an Bleed which takes up a global but i like it as it is (only its dmg suck), but completes the rotation.

Whereas Warrior was all about, 1,2,3 > repeat till enough rage, fell cleave, and every 2 minutes Inner Release > fell cleave, fell cleave, fell cleave, fell cleave... then infuriate inner chaos/cyclone.. wait for inner release cooldown doing 1,2,3 ... Repeat .... And dont even get me started on the fact that Inner Release pre lvl 70 sucks (in the rotation, as you are rage starved)

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Originally Posted by Swimcito

i strongly disagree ...
I play Gunbreaker, and i still would like 2 more skills..
A heal, and another cool skill. ...

I Dont remember if it was WOD or MOP, in wow where they did skill pruning, and felt horrible afterwards .....
In fact i am already criying about the stats squish .... (the bugs and all is crap, its just it takes more space on Databases)
I Want my character to feel ever more powerful... Not weaker ...

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Power will not change before and between squish. Example:
Pre Squish you will deal 100 to a monster with 1000 hp.
Post Squish you will deal 20 to a monster with 200hp.
In the end you still deal 10% of the monster hp.

Numbers will be easier to read, you probably won't steamroll as much on previous content from ARR or HW if the gap between expansion is reduced.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlha

As things have been going, we all know they're not going to make the jobs more complicated. So, all things being the same regarding basic combos, I'd rather free up a few keybinds to actually add some interesting new abilities.

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Feedback has strongly been going on the fact that some jobs are boring. Healers being a quite unpopular role due to that lack of buttons.
Jobs such as Dragoon and Black Mage feels perfect and they should be a standard for other jobs design. For those they may not add buttons.
But other jobs desperatly needs buttons, WAR is a joke and my hotbar looks like swiss cheese.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Feedback has strongly been going on the fact that some jobs are boring. Healers being a quite unpopular role due to that lack of buttons.
Jobs such as Dragoon and Black Mage feels perfect and they should be a standard for other jobs design. For those they may not add buttons.
But other jobs desperatly needs buttons, WAR is a joke and my hotbar looks like swiss cheese.

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Healers have their own issues, obviously their DPS is basically tied to 3 buttons, one ST, one AOE, one DoT.

To me WAR is a good example of consolidation on which you can build and add more skills. Fell Cleave and Decimate actually changing to Inner Chaos and Chaotic Cyclone is good, you don't need it to be different keybinds. Some other jobs would really need this kind of thing. Like DRG, you could have Blood of the Dragon changes to Stardiver during LotD, because there is never a case where you'd hit BotD during LotD. There, that's one keybind less.

The devs are pretty clear that from expansion to expansion, they want to keep the same amount of keybinds for each job. So you have 3 possibilites :
- You get Traits that changes an existing skill
- You get abilities pruned to make room for new skills.
- You find a way to consolidate existing hotkeys in order to make room for new skills.

Of these three, I'd rather have number 3. Traits changing a skill are boring, and nobody wants to lose abilities to get new ones.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlha

As things have been going, we all know they're not going to make the jobs more complicated. So, all things being the same regarding basic combos, I'd rather free up a few keybinds to actually add some interesting new abilities.

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How does one add "some new interesting abilities" without making the jobs any "more complicated"?

More boss-obscuring VFX? An eleventh step in a rigid linear combo?

Complexity is not an inherently bad thing. On the other hand, bloat and convolution (or, say, the gradual removal of affordances by clueless tack-ons that cost them their modularity, or trimming toolkits to shallowed mainstay content only to then further shallow out content to meet those trimmed toolkits)... yeah, that's bad.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Oh, simply based on experience, not authority.

Can't you see DRK, WAR and MCH complaining about the spam? Or Healers bored to hell with 2 DPS abilities?
I follow you on that, 1 2 3 can be monotonous on tanks and MCH but that should be extended, not compressed in a single button.
Otherwise you'd get the same result but you'd manage to make it even more boring.

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I literally don't see the difference. If there isn't an ounce of agency or optimization available beyond not losing feeling in your finger between having moved from 1 to 2 to 3, making the combos longer isn't going to fundamentally change anything.

On the other hand...

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Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge

branching combos based on situation, proc, effects

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...could do the trick.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Power will not change before and between squish. Example:
Pre Squish you will deal 100 to a monster with 1000 hp.
Post Squish you will deal 20 to a monster with 200hp.
In the end you still deal 10% of the monster hp.

Numbers will be easier to read, you probably won't steamroll as much on previous content from ARR or HW if the gap between expansion is reduced.



Feedback has strongly been going on the fact that some jobs are boring. Healers being a quite unpopular role due to that lack of buttons.
Jobs such as Dragoon and Black Mage feels perfect and they should be a standard for other jobs design. For those they may not add buttons.
But other jobs desperatly needs buttons, WAR is a joke and my hotbar looks like swiss cheese.

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there is only so much squish you can do....

The squishes are only true to current content, but always get weaker against previous content .... its not like they will reduce a monster from 100 hp to 0.10 hp.

What i mean is there is only so much you can reduce in math... (if not using decimals)

I'd actually welcome tank/melee dps jobs with a more priority/proc based gameplay as opposed to the rigid rotations we have now.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlha

Healers have their own issues, obviously their DPS is basically tied to 3 buttons, one ST, one AOE, one DoT.

To me WAR is a good example of consolidation on which you can build and add more skills. Fell Cleave and Decimate actually changing to Inner Chaos and Chaotic Cyclone is good, you don't need it to be different keybinds. Some other jobs would really need this kind of thing. Like DRG, you could have Blood of the Dragon changes to Stardiver during LotD, because there is never a case where you'd hit BotD during LotD. There, that's one keybind less.

The devs are pretty clear that from expansion to expansion, they want to keep the same amount of keybinds for each job. So you have 3 possibilites :
- You get Traits that changes an existing skill
- You get abilities pruned to make room for new skills.
- You find a way to consolidate existing hotkeys in order to make room for new skills.

Of these three, I'd rather have number 3. Traits changing a skill are boring, and nobody wants to lose abilities to get new ones.

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I Strongly agree on WARRIOR... i love warrior thematically... and the class is strong... but mechanic wise, it sucks and it is incomplete.. it needs more skills

I Switched to GNB, and loved it.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlha

SAM just has 3 different combos, there would be no issue consolidating that to 3 buttons, one for each sen combo.

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I'm now imagining a poor sprout switching to SAM for the first time and seeing three Hakazes on their hotbar. 11, 122, 133 or whatever would work, of course.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

For sam I really hated Shoha and the whole meditation system. When it first came out it was the worse, and yes they at last made it better. I still..don't really like it.

New expansion time comes more skill bloat, and changes. It makes me nervous.

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I'd rather not worry about it, it's coming out in 4 months anyway and no matter how much it changes, there's nothing I can do about it.

ShB's PLD is really boring to play, so I put it in the closet, case closed. And if the gameplay changes for the better, well, I'll see. Anyway, I'm going to change all my jobs from 80 to 90, except BLU, because it's not a real job, (Well what ? You can raid and dungeon in random with BLU ?).

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Originally Posted by Waliel

I'm now imagining a poor sprout switching to SAM for the first time and seeing three Hakazes on their hotbar. 11, 122, 133 or whatever would work, of course.

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I think the idea would be more that we adjust the way the actions lead into each other so you have a more equal number of choices at any given GCD, rather than we necessarily clone PvP's more button-efficient but still pretty much **** imitations of a combo onto PvE as well.

At present, the first GCD effectively gives access only to Fuga, Enpi, and Hakaze (3 choices).
Enpi simply puts you back at the start, but otherwise your 2nd GCD then moves towards Yukikaze, Shifu, and Jinpu (3 choices) or Mangetsu and Oka (2 choices).
Yukikaze, Mangetsu, and Oka finish their mod cycle, but Shifu and Jinpu move you on to only Kasha (1 choice) or Gekko (1 choice), respectively.

So you have anywhere from 1 to 3 weaponskills buttons outside of Iajutsu you can actually use in any given GCD... while spending 10 such buttons for that opportunity. That's not great. It's not DRG level bad (spend 9 of 10 GCDs in ST or 2 of 3 in AoE with one choice, and therefore actually no 'choice', and still only 3 choices in the remaining GCD), but it's still pretty bad insofar as button efficiency.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

I follow you on that, 1 2 3 can be monotonous on tanks and MCH but that should be extended, not compressed in a single button.
Otherwise you'd get the same result but you'd manage to make it even more boring.

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The idea behind compression is that you end up extending things with the room freed up by the compression. You turn 1, 2 and 3 from being a single 3 button combo into 5+ actions including the previous 3 button combo.

For example with MCH you could: Turn the 3 button Split Shot->Slug shot->Clean Shot combo into Split/Slug/Clean shot combo, add a 1 button 2-step branch off Split Shot that extends Automaton deployment time when used with no Battery generation, and add a battery consuming 2 stage Chainsaw attack that works like BLU's Phantom Flurry. 3 buttons turn from 3 actions into 7 actions.

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Originally Posted by Waliel

I'm now imagining a poor sprout switching to SAM for the first time and seeing three Hakazes on their hotbar. 11, 122, 133 or whatever would work, of course.

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Which is why you set it up differently.

You would have a Hakaze(default)->Yukikaze button, a Jinpu(default)->Gekko button, a Shifu(default)->Kasha button, a Fuga(default)->Mangetsu button and an Oka button.

Pushing Hakaze would turn it into Yukikaze with the combo ring while also putting combo rings around Jinpu and Shifu. Pushing Jinpu or Shifu would turn them into their 3rd step while reverting Yukikaze back to Hakaze.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

The idea behind compression is that you end up extending things with the room freed up by the compression. You turn 1, 2 and 3 from being a single 3 button combo into 5+ actions including the previous 3 button combo.

For example with MCH you could: Turn the 3 button Split Shot->Slug shot->Clean Shot combo into Split/Slug/Clean shot combo, add a 1 button 2-step branch off Split Shot that extends Automaton deployment time when used with no Battery generation, and add a battery consuming 2 stage Chainsaw attack that works like BLU's Phantom Flurry. 3 buttons turn from 3 actions into 7 actions.

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This is exactly the point I've been trying to make yes. We have had 3 expansions of the devs trying to keep the same amount of buttons for each job while adding to their kits, resulting to a lot of pruning and a lack of skills at lower levels. If you could consolidate things, it would actually leave a number of keybinds open to add new and exciting things, including at lower level.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

Power will not change before and between squish. Example:
Pre Squish you will deal 100 to a monster with 1000 hp.
Post Squish you will deal 20 to a monster with 200hp.
In the end you still deal 10% of the monster hp.

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This might be the stated goal but coding and the outcome might be drastically different than the goal.

WoW has attempted a squish twice and BOTH times guess what suffered the most unintended consequences?

Legacy Content.

Stuff you should have been able to still steamroll became a mess.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlha

As things have been going, we all know they're not going to make the jobs more complicated. So, all things being the same regarding basic combos, I'd rather free up a few keybinds to actually add some interesting new abilities.

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You're assuming we will get more actions to replace all they prune away when that likely isn't the case. Dragoon got four new abilities going into Shadowbringers: Coerthan Torment, High Jump, Raiden Thrust and Stardiver. Of those four, two are upgrades, one is a fairly pointless AoE combo extension and the last is only used every 30 seconds. It's incredibly unlikely they add more than this for Endwalker, thus combo consolidation results is losing five buttons for essentially one oGCD you'll press not even half as often.

Perhaps you won't find it boring to spam 1 and 2 endlessly but I certainly would. If I had any belief they'd actually add more complexity back to the jobs, or hell, even a whole new combo for Dragoon, I might be more on board with combo consolidation. Instead, I see it being more like Bard, Machinist and Warrior where my hotbars are just a barren wasteland of empty space. I'd rather just keep the combos as they are in that case.

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Originally Posted by CKNovel

More buttons doesn't means more skill, look at AoE/Single Target variants. What's the decision behind "should I press X or Y?", the answer is always obvious if you know math and how the games works.
But more button can also means more execution skill. Compare MCH wildfire from HW/SB to Wildfire from ShB.

As far as I know, raiding in WoW is a gear check, not mechanic+dps check. Crusade classic was cleared a few days after release.
No matter if you press 1 at the same speed, players will have different outcomes based on their gear. Gear is easy to access in XIV.

People who find the button number tedious just don't have any button management skill.
It's up to them to better manage their hotbar, not to the others to reduce their fun.

Believe me if you were to spam 1, you would first be relieved but then bored really, really hard.

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WoW and FFXIV are challenging in different ways.

If we had the WoW/ESO number of buttons in FFXIV this game would be easy. The choreography would become your main focus and that's something you can quickly get down.

If WoW had FFXIV's number of buttons with the odd 2 minute long rotation then that game would be absurdly hard.

I'm imagining doing something like Heroic Uu'nat, Harbinger of the Void with a Summoner rotation and it's giving me a migraine.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

WoW and FFXIV are challenging in different ways.

If we had the WoW/ESO number of buttons in FFXIV this game would be easy.

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Another "button count = complexity" implication?

Odd, then, that there's still far more cognitive load required from my favorite specs in WoW than any job here even with that lower button count -- all the more so when in contexts outside of XIV-standard striking-dummy-plus-DDR fights...

Similarly, I can imagine WoW having XIV amounts of buttons and, per XIV, being all the less capable of nuance or shifting priorities.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Another "button count = complexity" implication?

Odd, then, that there's still far more cognitive load required from my favorite specs in WoW than any job here even with that lower button count -- all the more so when in contexts outside of XIV-standard striking-dummy-plus-DDR fights...

Similarly, I can imagine WoW having XIV amounts of buttons and, per XIV, being all the less capable of nuance or shifting priorities.

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I don't think you read the entire comment chain that was a part of because I agree with you. It started with this:

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

I don't understand why more buttons necessarily means more skill?

If rotations ever DID get simplified they could put that skill requirement into, say, less choreographed encounter designs.

I mean World of WarCraft and Elder Scrolls online both have much simpler rotations than FFXIV with much fewer buttons but both games are widely considered harder than FFXIV.

In Burning Crusade Classic some classes have literally a one or two button rotation but some guilds are still struggling to down Magtheridon.

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My point above was that if FFXIV dropped buttons but changed nothing else it very well could become too boring and easy. WoW with very long rotations and tons of buttons meanwhile would be so hard nobody would play it. It packs a lot of complexity into the buttons it has compared to FFXIV.

I mean WoW is a bit of a disaster right now in terms of overworld content and direction but it is still king in raid design.

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Originally Posted by Ultimatecalibur

Which is why you set it up differently.

You would have a Hakaze(default)->Yukikaze button, a Jinpu(default)->Gekko button, a Shifu(default)->Kasha button, a Fuga(default)->Mangetsu button and an Oka button.

Pushing Hakaze would turn it into Yukikaze with the combo ring while also putting combo rings around Jinpu and Shifu. Pushing Jinpu or Shifu would turn them into their 3rd step while reverting Yukikaze back to Hakaze.

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Exactly what I meant, though maybe it didn't come out as such.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

You're assuming we will get more actions to replace all they prune away when that likely isn't the case. Dragoon got four new abilities going into Shadowbringers: Coerthan Torment, High Jump, Raiden Thrust and Stardiver. Of those four, two are upgrades, one is a fairly pointless AoE combo extension and the last is only used every 30 seconds. It's incredibly unlikely they add more than this for Endwalker, thus combo consolidation results is losing five buttons for essentially one oGCD you'll press not even half as often.

Perhaps you won't find it boring to spam 1 and 2 endlessly but I certainly would. If I had any belief they'd actually add more complexity back to the jobs, or hell, even a whole new combo for Dragoon, I might be more on board with combo consolidation. Instead, I see it being more like Bard, Machinist and Warrior where my hotbars are just a barren wasteland of empty space. I'd rather just keep the combos as they are in that case.

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They didn't add more because they couldn't add more. As I said multiple time, the devs have been clear that they try and keep the amount of buttons relatively the same from level cap to level cap. If they consolidate combos, they could still keep the same amount of buttons (which is THEIR STATED GOAL) while giving us more than 2 new extremely situational abilities.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlha

They didn't add more because they couldn't add more. As I said multiple time, the devs have been clear that they try and keep the amount of buttons relatively the same from level cap to level cap. If they consolidate combos, they could still keep the same amount of buttons (which is THEIR STATED GOAL) while giving us more than 2 new extremely situational abilities.

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If that were the case, why are jobs like Bard, Machinist and Warrior completely lacking in abilities? In fact, Bard lost more than it gained. Kind of throws a wrench in this whole theory of yours. Then you have White Mage who kept an ability like Fluid Aura that is completely worthless and Dark Knight whose new ability was a literal copy of Warrior's.

This idea we're going to get huge degrees of complexity and new innovations if combos are consolidated is simply unfounded. They could have done more with Shadowbringers but simply chose not to. Dragoon didn't have button bloat, and still doesn't even now. And yet they settled on giving it a pointless third AoE combo instead of something creative. So what makes you think that will suddenly change? Likewise, I'll cite Dark Knight again which was overhauled completely... into a pseudo-Warrior clone. This was their chance to do something unique with the job and they... dumbed it down. Nothing they have done since Stormblood suggests we're going to get anything remotely like you're assuming.

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Originally Posted by Ayuhra

I don't think you read the entire comment chain that was a part of because I agree with you. It started with this:

My point above was that if FFXIV dropped buttons but changed nothing else it very well could become too boring and easy. WoW with very long rotations and tons of buttons meanwhile would be so hard nobody would play it. It packs a lot of complexity into the buttons it has compared to FFXIV.

I mean WoW is a bit of a disaster right now in terms of overworld content and direction but it is still king in raid design.

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Oh, I read the chain. It's simply that this part (underlined above) did not come across, especially when explicitly calling WoW's rotations "much simpler" regardless of the spec or job being compared. Such would then rely on (A) what is exclusively "rotation" considering that the term in WoW also includes priority order, shifts therein, and many other elements of playflow, and (B) which of the included elements/criteria therein are weighed higher.

Personally, even friggin Arms spec, under certain builds (Collateral-Merciless, in a predominantly AoE fight but with frequent add appearances, for instance), will have every bit as tight and complex of macrorotation as an optimized DRG. It just has both a lower button ceiling (though not necessarily even a lower effective button ceiling, at least by any more than 2) and a higher effective button floor (rather than all but 1 of your GCD skills being effectively non-choices for 9 out of every 10 GCDs).

Honestly, for raid design, I'd say XIV mostly gives WoW a run for its money, though I wish it was a little less centered on DDR alone. Its the more mixed-encounter content like dungeons (M+, in WoW's case) where WoW's higher effective button floor really shines by comparison.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

If that were the case, why are jobs like Bard, Machinist and Warrior completely lacking in abilities? In fact, Bard lost more than it gained. Kind of throws a wrench in this whole theory of yours. Then you have White Mage who kept an ability like Fluid Aura that is completely worthless and Dark Knight whose new ability was a literal copy of Warrior's.

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From what I can tell Bard maintained roughly the same number class/job of abilities between StB and ShB. It lost Foe Requiem and Misery's End (pretty much a useless ogcd) and replaced them with Shadowbite and Apex Arrow.

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This idea we're going to get huge degrees of complexity and new innovations if combos are consolidated is simply unfounded. They could have done more with Shadowbringers but simply chose not to. Dragoon didn't have button bloat, and still doesn't even now. And yet they settled on giving it a pointless third AoE combo instead of something creative. So what makes you think that will suddenly change? Likewise, I'll cite Dark Knight again which was overhauled completely... into a pseudo-Warrior clone. This was their chance to do something unique with the job and they... dumbed it down. Nothing they have done since Stormblood suggests we're going to get anything remotely like you're assuming.

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One thing you are not accounting for is that several of the redesigns were done in ways to allow for future growth. Most of those jobs will not require as much pruning to include new abilities.

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Originally Posted by Nyarlha

They didn't add more because they couldn't add more. As I said multiple time, the devs have been clear that they try and keep the amount of buttons relatively the same from level cap to level cap. If they consolidate combos, they could still keep the same amount of buttons (which is THEIR STATED GOAL) while giving us more than 2 new extremely situational abilities.

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Yes and no. The button cap is important, but consider also what's being given, and in place of what. A lot of the times it's less a matter of having a capped capacity as just a lack of understanding of the job kits being changed or foresight as to how those changes would affect play.

Take Monk for example. In removing Fracture and Touch of Death, they killed Monk's ability to avoid positional requirements n times per 18|30 seconds, only to then have to go back and return that capacity via Role Actions that do not add to or fit job identity like True North and, later, Riddle of Earth. We lost more integral actions that better rewarded understanding of a given fight and provided useful rotational flexibility just to get... bland situationals that are available only much later in the experience.

Take Dragoon. In making its combo longer --rather than the two Dragon skills having any bankable effects, or even effects unique to themselves post-HW -- while also removing more modular actions like Heavy Thrust and Phlebotomize, they reduced the modularity in DRG's actions which then removed allowances for further rotational complexity.

We're not dealing merely with a button cap; we're dealing with a class dev team (duo? trio?) that only ever actively dumbs down the jobs they make any notable modifications to.

As Forte mentioned, job button counts are not equal, or even all that close to equal. Neither, even, are effective button counts (imagine every skill that could be consolidated, such as Ley Lines<>Between the Lines, Enochian->Blizzard IV<>Fire IV, Umbral Soul<>Transpose; RDM's melee chain, Verstone<>Veraero (unless Swiftcast/Dualcast), Verfire<>Verthunder (unless Swiftcast/Dualcast), Scorch replacing Verholy/Verflare, Impact replacing either AoE upon Dualcast or Swiftcast; Chaos Thrust Chain(+2), Full Thrust Chain(+2), Jump<>Mirage Dive, Blood of the Dragon<>Stardiver; etc., etc. and then consider what those jobs' button counts would be).