DPS who pull mobs

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Originally Posted by Jin-

Well I'm talking in general + leveling. Not metaslaving

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Classic literary just one giant metaslave community. The game has been min/maxed to hell and back.

Though in regards to arms length and dps pulling. It awesome since general outside a few niche encounters where else would you ever get arma length value.

I remember I was tanking in a leveling dungeon and the healer had gear, way out of date like previous expansion out of date. So I decided for this healer to only do a couple of pack pulls at a time instead of wall to wall for this dungeon. The dps didn’t like this so they ran ahead and pulled more. I’m like ok, whatever, and I grab the mobs off him.

Unfortunately, the healer wasn’t able to keep up with the damage and I end up dying and we all wipe. So I say to the DPS look at the healers gear and the sprout icon above his head, there’s a reason I wasn’t doing wall to wall pulls.

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Originally Posted by Zfz

So much this. I think the vast majority of veteran tanks no longer cares who pulls in a dungeon anymore because they're all AOE facerolls anyways. But if a melee DPS wants to pull, then getting an extra use of Arms Length is quite good.

It's surprising though how many tanks subconsciously think Arms Length is only good for the knockback resistance. Personally I love the Slow debuff popping up from every mob, it reminds me of back then when Flash was still a thing. :3

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Oh, I care. I just suck it up when it happens though. Thankfully it is a rare occurrence for me.

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Originally Posted by ryouma17

dps need to learn some patience and wait 2 seconds for the tank to pull, if dps wanted to tank they shoulda que'd up as a tank. if someone runs ahead of me and pulls then i let them tank it

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Originally Posted by Reinha

You guys let dps run ahead of you?

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I have never had a dps ahead of me any time I have tanked, simply because I never allowed it to be possible.

And even if, I will repeat what I said before. Intentionally not doing your own job in the group (and potentially punishing 2 people who had nothing to do with it) because you didn't like that a dps pulled something does not make you the better person, or helpful. You are instead actively wasting your and everyone else's time, when you could just grab it, get done with the place, and then not see that person ever again.

This is also with the factor that the new stuff hits so little that if you are single pulling, which is the only way that the dps are going to pull for you, then you might as well be a dps yourself because it tickles. I've had my fair share of no aoe tanks in those and got out perfectly fine as a BLM with threat all over me. If a BLM can tank one, you can tank 2.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

I have never had a dps ahead of me any time I have tanked, simply because I never allowed it to be possible.

And even if, I will repeat what I said before. Intentionally not doing your own job in the group (and potentially punishing 2 people who had nothing to do with it) because you didn't like that a dps pulled something does not make you the better person, or helpful. You are instead actively wasting your and everyone else's time, when you could just grab it, get done with the place, and then not see that person ever again.

This is also with the factor that the new stuff hits so little that if you are single pulling, which is the only way that the dps are going to pull for you, then you might as well be a dps yourself because it tickles. I've had my fair share of no aoe tanks in those and got out perfectly fine as a BLM with threat all over me. If a BLM can tank one, you can tank 2.

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Eh, I had it happen a few times as I was learning to tank. Some people are less understanding than others. Eventually I learned to keep up a reasonable pace, but it is something I needed to work up to. I didn't hold it against those players though...much. I knew I needed to "git gud". After awhile I ended up just throwing myself into the proverbial deep end and learned how to "swim". It got much easier after that. Think I've only seen it couple times since, but there were other circumstances at play like waiting for a healer to catch up and such if they were really, REALLY far behind.

I always pull wall-to-wall from the start. If we wipe whelp normally even the most stubborn dps will understand. If not well Yay wall-to-wall we go. Asking is kinda moot cause people may say no simply due to desire and not lack of ability so remove that from equation and push forward.

ill generally snag enemy off Dps before it does anything too crazy
the "you pull it you tank it" mentality is dumb

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Originally Posted by Zfz

It's surprising though how many tanks subconsciously think Arms Length is only good for the knockback resistance. Personally I love the Slow debuff popping up from every mob, it reminds me of back then when Flash was still a thing. :3

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Wait, seriously? No way. Someone should make a PSA about Arm’s Length, that’s so cool.

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Originally Posted by Duskane

ill generally snag enemy off Dps before it does anything too crazy
the "you pull it you tank it" mentality is dumb

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I used to live by it a long time ago but...I've matured enough since then to realize that it's really just a waste of everyone's time. Do I like when things are pulled for me? Nope. But it'd be even worse if I just let things run amok. No sense in punishing the group for the foul deeds of one individual. The solution is to always stay ahead of even the most impatient people.

To all the folks in here that genuinely believe in the "You pull it you tank it" nonsense...

Just pull faster bruv.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

Depends on the specific pull but if the tank is standing literally on the wall (hence the name "wall to wall pull") you're not pre positioning ahead of them. Also if you and another player are in lock step or you're a bit ahead of them on your client, chances are they're ahead of you per the server due to the 200ms built in delay.

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Which is why I said way earlier that "unless the tank is literally pulling to the wall". But most times there's no point to do that, not even to make sure the DPS aren't pre-positioned in front of you, because it doesn't really matter.

As to network delay, well, there's nothing to prove that I'm showing up in front or behind. But that's not the point. The point is, unless the tank literally pulls to the wall, it's often trivial for me to be half a screen ahead, meaning so far ahead network delay isn't going to make a difference, and I do the zigzag to put me back behind the tank.

But even that is not the point. As I said, the point is, use Arm's Length. Arguing about "oh no you can't out run tanks" or "tanks who get outrun by DPS are just bad tanks" or all that is all moot. Just use Arm's Length if you have it and find yourself pulling instead of the tank, that's what this thread is about.

I wonder how this thread has somehow avoided the "You're the reason people don't want to tank!" mob.

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Originally Posted by NekoHina

I have played this game from the beta and have to disagree. This whole wall to wall pull is a not a given nor was it intended. In fact, when players first began finding ways of pushing packs further, SE put in gates and boundaries so that packs and trash had to handled. So to say that if you not doing this a certain way, then you are griefing is just baloney. There are plenty of reasons for doing pack and wall to wall. It is a team game and that does not work for everyone.

On the subject of who pulls, if everyone did their own job then the dungeon would be smooth regardless. DPS should not pull mobs that is a tank’s job.

For the record, I do not play a tank and I do not mind big pulls as a healer or as a DPS. I do mind when people do not play their roles.

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I've played since beta, too - it's not a point of credibility, honestly.

Nowadays with how dungeons are designed, there's no drawback to not going wall to wall (especially in Expert Roulette, since those dungeons hit way weaker than leveling dungeons and there's no real variability in gear -- you have a minimum to hit and that minimum is more than enough). Doesn't matter if the devs intended it or not, it's become a general expectation because (ultimately speaking) it's easy to do and single pulls are more of a strain on party resources. There's no real, conceivable, reason why one would not do it -- except for feeling nervous to try it out, or if other members of your party are worse (ie: DPS doing single target rotations in AoE, a "I only Heal" healer). And the best solution to nerves is, just, honestly communicating that and seeing if the party would like you to try anyway, while understanding you might mess up. But outside of initial anxiety, or not understanding how the game operates, I can't think of a reason to not perform the basic function of your role in the content (and, no, "I'm eating food while watching Netflix" isn't a reason).

In leveling dungeons gear becomes a component, but usually, even tanks in really bad gear can do a large pull if they utilize their CD's (which I'll request anyway if I notice they aren't using them -- and, I mean, I kept a no-CD paladin alive in harder hitting leveling dungeons who pulled wall to wall wearing Scaevan in Abania intermixed with some lesser items). That said, I've never had someone (sprout or returner, or mentor crown-wearing player) say "that sucked" after coaching them through what they're supposed to be doing when they pull multiple packs. Most people tend to be surprised it was fun, and if I'm healing that run, I'll put the responsibility of a wipe on myself instead of them to ease the anxiety of making a mistake. Sometimes a new tank trying it out will die, that's okay. It's a game, let people learn and here or there and sometimes they will die while learning.

The contentious point of "single pulls is fine" is okay in games where dungeons are actually difficult, or require some thought in what to pull/how to pull it/where to pull it/what the pack's mechanics are and what the current resources in the party are. But in this game, dungeons don't really do anything. They're a hallway with a couple packs of mobs that generally pose very little actual threat, with maybe a pack or two every other dungeon having 1 mob that will do a tankbuster (which the tank should already be mitigating by using CD's in these pulls, but a WHM Holy or a DPS paying attention, or even a tank paying attention, can usually stun those casts).

It's not like sac-runs in Aurum Vale, there's no secret tech, there's no higher thought process going on other than: hit a cooldown. When it expires, hit another cooldown. Which is the base expectation I have of any tank since that's literally what they're there to do (that, and contributing to damage). I won't be a dick about it, but if I put out "We should pull more packs of mobs, and it'll be fine so long as you rotate through your Cooldowns" and am met with a passive aggressive "I decide the pace of the run" or whatever, I'll initiate a votekick, or I'll just dip. I've hit my personal limit on passive aggressiveness in DF, I'm not really willing to babysit an adult high schooler.

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Originally Posted by Jijifli

First off, intentionally being bad at your role does not help you at all

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Im doing my job, the DPS decide they can't wait the extra second to let me get a hit on the enemy to I can gain aggro.
They decided on their own to run ahead and pull everything else. Thats not being bad at my role on purpose.

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Originally Posted by Alaray

It's not a big deal. At least, not as big of a deal as intentionally griefing for a petty grievance. I mean, I pull most of my dungeons on healer and all you'd really do by turning off stance is make me use a couple gcd's to live (which, more of a cut to dungeon mobs hitting for basically nothing while being made out of paper). It's not really the "Learned Your Lesson?" moment you think it is.

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Your opinion is valid and noted, but If Im Tank, let me Tank. Dont tank for me then call me bad when you wont let me do my job and act like your in a rush because you have a date waiting or something XD.

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Originally Posted by Delis

Ah, nothing like being a petty tank.

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Darn Straight 8)
If Im the Tank, let me tank. If you wanna tank, Ill let you tank.
I WILL be petty about it because why am I the Tank, if a DPS is gonna do it for me?

Genuine question because I'm confused on where the line in the sand is drawn:

Is pulling pack by pack griefing in any situation or do new tanks get a pass on that while they learn? How I view the convo so far is that it's basically a requirement to pull wall to wall and every tank should know that, which is fair for people who have MMO/previous tanking experience. But what about new people who are coming into FF as their first MMO? Should I, as a DPS, rush the dungeon and pull more even though they're obviously new and not sure of how to tank properly and call them out for griefing?

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Genuine question because I'm confused on where the line in the sand is drawn:

Is pulling pack by pack griefing in any situation or do new tanks get a pass on that while they learn? How I view the convo so far is that it's basically a requirement to pull wall to wall and every tank should know that, which is fair for people who have MMO/previous tanking experience. But what about new people who are coming into FF as their first MMO? Should I, as a DPS, rush the dungeon and pull more even though they're obviously new and not sure of how to tank properly and call them out for griefing?

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I think its pretty messed up to call somebody out for griefing just because they dont pull wall-to-wall, especially if they are new and trying to learn.
Not every tank if gonna be a lighting fast pro, just like not every healer is gonna be good enough to keep up.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Genuine question because I'm confused on where the line in the sand is drawn:

Is pulling pack by pack griefing in any situation or do new tanks get a pass on that while they learn? How I view the convo so far is that it's basically a requirement to pull wall to wall and every tank should know that, which is fair for people who have MMO/previous tanking experience. But what about new people who are coming into FF as their first MMO? Should I, as a DPS, rush the dungeon and pull more even though they're obviously new and not sure of how to tank properly and call them out for griefing?

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The line in the sand is this phrase: If everyone isn't dead you're not pulling enough.

Once you die and establish the pull amount you limit it to that.

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Originally Posted by Nethereal

The line in the sand is this phrase: If everyone isn't dead you're not pulling enough.

Once you die and establish the pull amount you limit it to that.

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But that doesn't speak for new players who don't know that. It's still making the assumption that they should know that right off the bat, first pull. It doesn't teach you in the Hall of the Novice to pull wall to wall every time (literally the exercises put you against 3 at max, hence why a lot of new people pull 1 pack of 3 at a time) and most people's first real tanking experience is Satasha (which doesn't tell you to pull wall to wall either). I'm asking about what should be done in those situations or if it's just a blanket: everyone is griefing no matter what and new people don't exist/should have some hivemind knowledge absorbed in from the void on Day 1.

Personally in every dungeon I've been in where a tank was pulling pack by pack, no one gave a shit except for maybe once. If people did give a shit they didn't say it and I'd be willing to put money down that the reason is because of how some people are afraid/anxious to correct people.

So, is this assumption on tanking/approval for other role to pull mobs coming from a vocal minority or is this a hidden majority that is valid in their expectations that's sitting on their issues? Which, if that's the case, isn't the fault of anyone other than the person not willing to talk and continuing to enable the incorrect tanking methods. Either way, it's pretty unfair to push the assumption of griefing on tanks that pull small because they could be new or not confident enough in their abilities yet to pull wall to wall. If this is something like a level 80 dungeon, fair enough, tanks should be more than comfortable enough by then to pull big and healers should be able to compensate for it. However, if this is like a 50 or under dungeon and the tank is new and clearly not up to snuff, some sort of respect should be given to let them get their feet on the ground rather than automatically pointing the finger that they just want to waste everyone's time or doing their job for them. People don't learn by being carried or having the experience they need taken up by someone else who wants to rush.

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Originally Posted by Alaray

Pulling wall to wall in endgame dungeons is a base expectation. If you're not doing that, at that point in time, you're basically griefing. Because you certainly aren't tanking.

I don't need to ask a healer if they're cool with big pulls in Matoya's or Hero's. Why? Because they could literally be a third DPS and I'll be fine. It doesn't require high level play to do this, either. Just base knowledge of what you're doing. Which you learn by being taught, ideally, as a new player how to do that early on. Which is, again, why I tell new players to do a large pull and rotate through their cooldowns to extend the protection they provide for you. Or why I'll request a DPS who is only doing single target in an AoE pull, to AoE. Or why standing around on WHM only waiting to push "Cure II" is a hindrance to your party, because Holy stuns and essentially provides Hallowed Ground-level of mitigation since nothing can take any actions for a duration while you start doing it.

To intentionally slow down a run because someone doesn't want to really participate in the content isn't a playstyle. This is a team game, if you don't want to be part of a team, then run with trusts because AI teammates have no cares left to give.

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And it's things like this as to why I will pull how I please.. i have a pocket healer and sometimes a DPS too so pulling more then I want will get you dead or vote removed if you continue to do so..

I would never have made this mentality of " you pull it you tank it" if not for DPS like you.

Back when I first started the game had a rude Red who kept doing that in a dungeon that was new to me and my healer.. we told them so before the barrier dropped.. we ask him to stop so we could enjoy the new dungeon.. we finished.. he told us we both sucked and left.. so I'll use my privileges as a tank to be the tank and set the pace.. if you dont like it you can return to your 30min+ wait time for a new dungeon or you can suck it up and understand that I play the class that keep your alive an let you have your wall to wall pulls

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Originally Posted by Baxcel

And it's things like this as to why I will pull how I please.. i have a pocket healer and sometimes a DPS too so pulling more then I want will get you dead or vote removed if you continue to do so..

I would never have made this mentality of " you pull it you tank it" if not for DPS like you.

Back when I first started the game had a rude Red who kept doing that in a dungeon that was new to me and my healer.. we told them so before the barrier dropped.. we ask him to stop so we could enjoy the new dungeon.. we finished.. he told us we both sucked and left.. so I'll use my privileges as a tank to be the tank and set the pace.. if you dont like it you can return to your 30min+ wait time for a new dungeon or you can suck it up and understand that I play the class that keep your alive an let you have your wall to wall pulls

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I'm a tank main and I've been primarily playing healer this patch.

Never once suggested I was okay with insulting other players/saying they suck in the instance -- my point was: intentionally slowing down a run at the expense of others when there is no viable reason to do so outside of specific circumstances (ie. New player/the rest of the group is not up to par) and then to grief someone in that party because they pulled a little extra is petulant and just as worthy of a vote dismiss. I'm really tired of this entire "coddle the tanks and healers" mentality that's become so popular, especially when it leads to bad information disseminating to newer players, or leads to random, holier-than thou superiority complex from people who don't care enough to even try.

Please grow up.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Im doing my job, the DPS decide they can't wait the extra second to let me get a hit on the enemy to I can gain aggro.
They decided on their own to run ahead and pull everything else. Thats not being bad at my role on purpose.



Your opinion is valid and noted, but If Im Tank, let me Tank. Dont tank for me then call me bad when you wont let me do my job and act like your in a rush because you have a date waiting or something XD.




Darn Straight 8)
If Im the Tank, let me tank. If you wanna tank, Ill let you tank.
I WILL be petty about it because why am I the Tank, if a DPS is gonna do it for me?

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Question would you also let the healer die thus wiping the group if they were the ones that pulled?

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Originally Posted by Alaray

I'm a tank main and I've been primarily playing healer this patch.

Never once suggested I was okay with insulting other players/saying they suck in the instance -- my point was: intentionally slowing down a run at the expense of others when there is no viable reason to do so outside of specific circumstances (ie. New player/the rest of the group is not up to par) and then to grief someone in that party because they pulled a little extra is petulant and just as worthy of a vote dismiss. I'm really tired of this entire "coddle the tanks and healers" mentality that's become so popular, especially when it leads to bad information disseminating to newer players, or leads to random, holier-than thou superiority complex from people who don't care enough to even try.

Please grow up.

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No you didn't but I didn't say you did.. I was mentioning why I have that mentality..

New to a class, new to a dungeon, and dungeon tied to the MSQ( it was The Burn, when it was new). Telling someone your new, and that you'd prefer to go slower to see everything.. to find the hidden chests or whatever is laying around.. to get the mapping thr realm achevements, just because a dps wants to zip across all content new and old dosnt mean everyone else wants to..

I'm here for the story for the lore for everything that makes this game a final fantasy game.. I don't wanna skip or rush it all.. the story is what's important and if you wanna dead rush to the end and be bored for the next 5 months thats on you.. but I won't let someone make me do it that way and a vast majority of tanks an healers won't let people do it that way.

You talk about coddling the healers and tanks.. well it's coddling the dps when we have to save your butts because your not playing your class correctly and pulling enemies.

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Originally Posted by Delis

Ah, nothing like being a petty tank.

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Or the DPS could burn the current group away that sticks on the tank and then proceed to the next one.

Almost as bad as healers pulling the next group and "Rescue" the tank into them.

If you have a dps pulling extra for you it means you are not pulling enough and they are trying to nudge you to pull more.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Im doing my job, the DPS decide they can't wait the extra second to let me get a hit on the enemy to I can gain aggro.
They decided on their own to run ahead and pull everything else. Thats not being bad at my role on purpose.

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Your job is not limited to simply pulling mobs but establishing and maintaining aggro. Allowing the DPS to die out of some petty "revenge" because they ran ahead isn't doing your job. It's the equivalent of a healer refusing to heal because they got angry at someone.

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Darn Straight 8)
If Im the Tank, let me tank. If you wanna tank, Ill let you tank.
I WILL be petty about it because why am I the Tank, if a DPS is gonna do it for me?

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And in such a scenario, you're the one I'm initiating the Vote Kick on because you're causing an actual issue. Some rando DPS or healer pulling ahead didn't impact anything except to bruise your ego slightly. You electing to let said DPS die puts more work on me as the potential healer and/or simply wastes time since now we have a DPS with weakness. You're in the wrong no matter what justification you want to spin.

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Originally Posted by LianaThorne

Genuine question because I'm confused on where the line in the sand is drawn:

Is pulling pack by pack griefing in any situation or do new tanks get a pass on that while they learn? How I view the convo so far is that it's basically a requirement to pull wall to wall and every tank should know that, which is fair for people who have MMO/previous tanking experience. But what about new people who are coming into FF as their first MMO? Should I, as a DPS, rush the dungeon and pull more even though they're obviously new and not sure of how to tank properly and call them out for griefing?

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I'll break it down like this, based on level ranges.

15-50: Pull however much you feel comfortable. Not only do some jobs lack AoE abilities, these are novice level dungeons. It's expected for inexperienced to be more on the wary side.
50-60: You should be experimenting with larger pulls. Not necessarily the whole room but generally two packs. I'm still not going to fault overly cautious tank at this range though.
60-70: Now you need to be pulling room wide. Maybe not some of the super pulls but anything less than two packs tells me you don't have enough confidence to tank yet. So go back to lower dungeons until you do.
70-80: No excuses whatsoever. You're far from new by this point and should pull everything.

Put another way. If you're pulling one pack at the higher level ranges, you're little more than a gimped DPS. Three mobs simply don't deal enough damage that a DPS couldn't tank themselves with a few spot heals. In other words, you're effectively useless pulling one pack at 60+. Even at 50 that could be argued, but that's low enough most people won't say much.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

15-50: Pull however much you feel comfortable. Not only do some jobs lack AoE abilities, these are novice level dungeons. It's expected for inexperienced to be more on the wary side.
50-60: You should be experimenting with larger pulls. Not necessarily the whole room but generally two packs. I'm still not going to fault overly cautious tank at this range though.
60-70: Now you need to be pulling room wide. Maybe not some of the super pulls but anything less than two packs tells me you don't have enough confidence to tank yet. So go back to lower dungeons until you do.
70-80: No excuses whatsoever. You're far from new by this point and should pull everything.

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I think it's better to view it based on number of runs you've done in particular dungeons. Knowing good pause points for a healer to top you off mid-gathering before continuing, knowing when its okay to use your gap closer to reach the next mob versus face tanking into the group for aoe's immediately. etc.

So if a tank has run it enough to be comfortable with wall-to-wall, they should do it if they know the healer can handle it.

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Originally Posted by Alaray

Pulling wall to wall in endgame dungeons is a base expectation. If you're not doing that, at that point in time, you're basically griefing. Because you certainly aren't tanking.

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The important distinction here is endgame dungeons. Because many people just read something like this, expect it means every dungeon in the game and overreact immediately.

Leveling dungeons and leveling cap dungeons (50, 60, 70, 80) are a different boat entirely. In particular, dungeons like Matoya's and Hero's Gauntlet are absolute jokes compared to something like Holminster or huge Aurum Vale pulls with some first timers. Some leveling dungeons it's reasonable to pull 2-3 packs if you're keeping a good pace because they actually can hit like trucks. It's strange design that it starts harder while leveling, then becomes more faceroll as you reach max level, but that's the way it is.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I'll break it down like this, based on level ranges.

15-50: Pull however much you feel comfortable. Not only do some jobs lack AoE abilities, these are novice level dungeons. It's expected for inexperienced to be more on the wary side.
50-60: You should be experimenting with larger pulls. Not necessarily the whole room but generally two packs. I'm still not going to fault overly cautious tank at this range though.
60-70: Now you need to be pulling room wide. Maybe not some of the super pulls but anything less than two packs tells me you don't have enough confidence to tank yet. So go back to lower dungeons until you do.
70-80: No excuses whatsoever. You're far from new by this point and should pull everything.

Put another way. If you're pulling one pack at the higher level ranges, you're little more than a gimped DPS. Three mobs simply don't deal enough damage that a DPS couldn't tank themselves with a few spot heals. In other words, you're effectively useless pulling one pack at 60+. Even at 50 that could be argued, but that's low enough most people won't say much.

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I'm not disagreeing with any of this, just putting that out there. I agree with how you put the differences and wasn't really arguing that tanks shouldn't be pulling full at 80. I'm just saying I see people also trying to do this in lower level dungeons (for example I had a healer run off in the opposite direction of a newbie tank in Stone Vigil within the last 2-3 days and pull packs on their own down the hall while the tank was grabbing the ones in a side room and subsequently died within 10 seconds along with the DPS that followed after them and get pissy at the tank about it). So I was curious who would be considered at fault for that.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

It's strange design that it starts harder while leveling, then becomes more faceroll as you reach max level, but that's the way it is.

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It's not a strange design. The reason max level dungeons are easy is because gear progression is important in an MMO. You need to feel that your better gear is making content easier. A party that just reached the minimum item level to qualify for these recent expert dungeons would probably take a really long time to kill everything.

There is an argument to be made that our gear is too impactful and that it shouldn't be that just having crafted gear makes the expert dungeons not even require a healer.

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Originally Posted by Jeeqbit

There is an argument to be made that our gear is too impactful and that it shouldn't be that just having crafted gear makes the expert dungeons not even require a healer.

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Especially since each expacs endgame dungeons (50/60/70/80) have a wider gap between min ilvl and when they start synching players down than the dungeons you run mid expac do.
The endgame stuff legit let's you faceroll it harder.

The range should have been higher, because it's pretty freaking lame that the highest savage gear can't keep its ilvl in the highest level expert dungeon among other things.

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Originally Posted by SwordswornFox

I think it's better to view it based on number of runs you've done in particular dungeons. Knowing good pause points for a healer to top you off mid-gathering before continuing, knowing when its okay to use your gap closer to reach the next mob versus face tanking into the group for aoe's immediately. etc.

So if a tank has run it enough to be comfortable with wall-to-wall, they should do it if they know the healer can handle it.

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you should never be stopping mid gathering. if the healer needs to top you off while gathering you've done something wrong.

all stopping before you're done pulling accomplishes is allowing mobs to get extra hits on you and falsely signaling to the rest of the group that the pull is complete, causing them to potentially waste cooldowns and resources.

If people would consider me a bad tank for allowing DPS to run ahead of me and subsequently pull, I'm humbly take the L.

I have Asperger's, and sometimes I experience momentary lapse of awareness.

I also really enjoy taking in the settings of the dungeon, my teammates glamour, or I might feel like offering a brief greeting - all which may present enough of an opportunity for a DPS to pull ahead of me.

I also wish to clarify that one particular dungeon I had mind when creating this thread was Castrum Meridian.

The pace of the 2 MSQ dungeons are much slower than most instanced content in the game, which naturally result in players often striving for efficiency less than they normally would, which can end up with DPS who still wish to bring their A game to promptly pull.

I apologize if my tone seems defensive here, I just wanted to explain my perspective further and hope I may have succeeded.

On a final note, I definitely agree with the notion that wall to wall puling during leveling dungeons should be performed with much greater discretion than those level cap dungeons.

At best, some specific wall to wall pulls during leveling dungeons may require to much defensive/ healing resources to be efficient(ALL of the soldiers in Shisui of the violet tides), and at worst, impossible to manage(Aurum Vale).

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Im doing my job, the DPS decide they can't wait the extra second to let me get a hit on the enemy to I can gain aggro.
They decided on their own to run ahead and pull everything else. Thats not being bad at my role on purpose.



Your opinion is valid and noted, but If Im Tank, let me Tank. Dont tank for me then call me bad when you wont let me do my job and act like your in a rush because you have a date waiting or something XD.




Darn Straight 8)
If Im the Tank, let me tank. If you wanna tank, Ill let you tank.
I WILL be petty about it because why am I the Tank, if a DPS is gonna do it for me?

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Do you know refusing to do your job and letting people die for it is reportable since it's griefing?

Someone running ahead isn't preventing you from doing your actual job, that is grabbing aggro, or doesn't mean that they want to tank, it just means that they're faster than you. You're a bad tank and a bad team player with that attitude, no two ways around it.

Homie as someone who also has Asperger's / ASD which ever some may prefer. I get where you are coming from. Still the pulling aspect is one thing but I think most the issue stems from tanks that just refuse to pull aggro off. I mean depending on the class or sprint timings at times it may be hard to stay ahead of a dps that wishes to pull but if they do pull and you get aggro off them then most will probably not call you bad.

It's always tempting to let them die. I am guilty of being that tank too in the past. But as time goes by I have sorta softened my stance and would usually just let them take a hit or two to give them a scare but without letting them die by pulling it away after enough 'scaring' lol. Because Weakness hurts damage output.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Tranquilmelody7

At best, some specific wall to wall pulls during leveling dungeons may require to much defensive/ healing resources to be efficient(ALL of the soldiers in Shisui of the violet tides), and at worst, impossible to manage(Aurum Vale).

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Not to attempt and argue or anything, but Shisui's pulls aren't that bad so long as healer and tank are competent and using their full kits. I've had no trouble healing through the big pulls for the soldiers there even in baseline level 60 gear. The only real factor is how long the mobs take to die, which is outside the tank and healer's hands most times even if they're both doing their best to AoE.



Also to the guy who wants to act like a child and throw tantrums if anyone ever dares pull ahead or pull for them: grow up. This ain't high school, and you are actively contributing to a worse run by refusing to do your job to 'teach someone a lesson' than the DPS or Healer are by pulling extra on you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

Im doing my job, the DPS decide they can't wait the extra second to let me get a hit on the enemy to I can gain aggro.

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It's not hard to hit provoke off a BRD. -Link

Your job is to maintain threat, that is quite literally your minimum. If a dps has it, you are not doing your minimum. I don't care if he pulled something else before you did SOMEHOW to even begin with, because intentionally choosing to not keep threat and wasting everyone's time, not just that one dps, is quite literally griefing.

Would you be fine with the healer no longer healing you if you stood in one aoe?

Would you be fine with a dps just auto attacking because you caused him to miss a positional?

Why is it okay for you to not do what you came to do, but not okay for others?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ZedxKayn

Do you know refusing to do your job and letting people die for it is reportable since it's griefing?

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The DPS should be held accountable for any pulls they do intentionally ahead of the tank. Why should they get away with running ahead and bring back groups from across multiple rooms when the current mobs aren't done yet?

Did you talk to the tank about it first to suggest that they can pick up speed? Did the healer gave its okay on that as well?
If they did not try anything in that direction and just run off to pick up additional groups, then it's their fault if chaos ensures if that tank doesn't do anything to manage the situation.

You have the tools and options there: Communicate, kick the tank, or leave the dungeon yourself.

... hm, now I have to ask support that intentionally pulling ahead is considered griefing as well and a bannable offense.

Regarding pulling back-to-back, I don't feel it's such a good idea. FFXIV is really for multi-pack pulls, not back-to-back pulls.

Back in early WoW, back-to-back was a thing because more often than not the you weren't doing AOE, but rather crowd-controlling a pack and burning down each mob individually. So the most optimal way to maximize dps was to keep the mobs coming non-stop. That means the tank should leave the last mob half-dead to be finished off by the DPS and proceed to pull the next pack. Positioning also mattered because one extra patro can wipe the whole group in a heroic, so tanks often also needed time to pull mobs to the right spot. This doesn't apply in FFXIV.

FFXIV is more like doing bursts of damage, with DPS stacking whatever buffs they can to maximize AOE dps.