Blue mage shouldnt be "Limited"

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Which segues nicely into why Blue Mage is, indeed, overpowered. It isn't good at one singular thing. It can adapt to everything. If you watch Blue Mage vids on yotube clearing O12S, they Diamond Back every major mechanic. This completely negates what is otherwise the hardest part of Final Omega. White Wind renders any intense healing phase a joke because a DPS can become a superior healer. It's the equivalent of giving Dragoon Medica on steroids. Sure, it's a DPS loss but at 50% or higher, it's a full heal for the entire party. Simply having two Blue Mages rotating that will trivialize practically any fight.

Even if a Black Mage could, theoretically out DPS Blue Mage. It can't survive any level 70 content on its own whereas Blue Mage can even without Basic Instinct. Allowing Blue Mage into parties as a regular job, makes undeniably the best DPS out of sheer versatility.

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Oh my god spelled out like that...
BLU might not dominate the DPS slots. It might still get out damaged by dedicated DPS.
But for the other roles... tanks and healers might just disappear from harder content. 14 is a game about putting out damage, and if BLU can be a tank or a healer AND put out near DPS numbers...

i wonder if the team who designed and implemented the problematic tank and healer skills in the first place might have any idea whatsoever on how to balance those skills down to normal character ranges--tuning potencies down where needed, making %-based effects into conditional potency-based effects (white wind into something akin to AST's essential dignity), tuning down the various stances to be less hyperinflated in their bonuses...

before the most recent patch healer and tank stance were vestigial enough that they could be removed entirely (lacking many key skills to support even the most basic toolkit, and only really propped up by their inflated numbers under those stances). as of now that's a bit stickier after tanks finally got a pair of proper mitigation options and healers finally got a regen, completing the quadfecta of spamheal-shield-regen-emergencyheal of the most essential basic parts for a healer class (though once again coasting on their inflated potencies).
ironically BLU's lack of reduntant healing on top of redundant healing makes healing as a BLU much more engaging compared to other healers, since they actually have a downtime activity in their DPS (an aspect that was stripped away from AST in their cards and SCH in their dot management, and simply didnt exist for WHM at all) and have to actually pick the proper healing response to the situation at hand rather than just tapping one of their 3+ free options to do so and sitting bored for the rest of the fight (it's a real shame that blu cant really make use of this comparatively fun option in any content that actually matters, with real people).

my assessments are that of several other parses done 3 years ago and comparing it to the stated parse of the blue mage as said before. take account to blue mage getting 100% damage boost and healing boost when soloing. thus in group play they lose the solo buff. I have calculated that without that buff, the parse of blue mage stated before has been cut un half since when solo it is doubled. simple math isnt everyone's specialty. now taking a look at stormblood parsing, black mage parse average is 14k dps. without the solo buff, blue mages dps is currently 16k burst and 8k stall dps.

now for the healing. As stated before redmage can heal and res back to back but its dps would drop. same situation lies with any class. when you stop DPSing, your dps goes down. That is obvious, but it does so even more for blue mage since the only heal you can use as dps is white wind (costly to spam with 1500 cost). Other heals dont go above 100 potency and isnt worth spamming. (if you want to factor in switching to healer mimicry, that further lowers its dps drastically)

Blue mage can also only revive once every 5 minutes where other classes do not have such a limitation.

I would figure some would understand how dps works but comparing a parse from storm blood black mage and CURRENT blue mage(excluding solo buff) is quite the gap with black mage in the lead for steady dps. 8k steady with 16k burst vs 14k dps steady.

look into dps with synced groups and compare it to other classes. you will be surprised how blown out of proportion blue mage really is compared to other jobs.

Now for healing. Blue mage can heal for 500 potency when in healer stance (effects dps since losing dps stance) its white wind scales with current hp and has limited range ontop of it's higher than average cost of 1500.

Summoner can heal for 400 potency (no cd) and revive (with a 8 second cooldown)

redmage can heal for 350 potency but can instacast the next heal for a total of 700 potency and can revive with no cd.



now to talk about its mechanic skipping. Diamond back reduces damage taken by 90% and does not skip instant death mechanics. this skill costs almost 1/3rd of your max mp. when the skill is active you do not regen any mp for 10 seconds while it is active. while DPSING, you cannot sustain the mp cost of your attacks, healing and your defence buffs for the cost of it all is too high to use when focusing dps. Now could a blue mage use those skills for survivability? yes but they wont be pushing damage as the cost is too much that not even lucid dreams can help with the mp recovery.

you have boost spell which is 200, a spammable spell which is 200-400, Dots cost 400-500 each(most dont stack, I use 2) instant spells cost 500 each (I have 6 instants I use as often as I can)
so 4200-4500 just by my basic rotation. That doesnt leave alot of room for other spells like white wind and diamond back as that would burn through my mp resulting in a lack of dps

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Originally Posted by Koka-Kola

my assessments are that of several other parses done 3 years ago and comparing it to the stated parse of the blue mage as said before. take account to blue mage getting 100% damage boost and healing boost when soloing. thus in group play they lose the solo buff. I have calculated that without that buff, the parse of blue mage stated before has been cut un half since when solo it is doubled. simple math isnt everyone's specialty. now taking a look at stormblood parsing, black mage parse average is 14k dps. without the solo buff, blue mages dps is currently 16k burst and 8k stall dps.

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If you're going to not-so-subtly snark about "simple math," you really ought to check your own. The highest DPS a Black Mage accomplished in Stormblood was slightly over 10k. No job ever came remotely close to 14k. Bear in mind, this is Personal DPS, thus it isn't taking into consideration how much the Black Mage was buffed by other players like logs do nowadays otherwise known as raid DPS. Which is another reason you'll see discrepancies in parses. Logs also don't account for DoTs properly when uploaded. Simply put, Blue Mage deals a lot more than is being properly represented.

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now for the healing. As stated before redmage can heal and res back to back but its dps would drop. same situation lies with any class. when you stop DPSing, your dps goes down. That is obvious, but it does so even more for blue mage since the only heal you can use as dps is white wind (costly to spam with 1500 cost). Other heals dont go above 100 potency and isnt worth spamming. (if you want to factor in switching to healer mimicry, that further lowers its dps drastically)

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And by comparison, White Wind is better than Vercure by an under of magnitude. This is a full heal so long as the Blue Mage is at 50% or higher. Have a Paladin Cover them and you guarantee a party wide benediction. You can't keep ignoring how incredibly powerful this is. You wouldn't need to spam it as most bosses don't use many raid wides to begin with. Two Blue Mages rotating that can both balance their MP and DPS while keeping the party healed. That type of versatility isn't present in any other job.

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Summoner can heal for 400 potency (no cd) and revive (with a 8 second cooldown)

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... Please tell me you aren't referring to Physick? You do realize this doesn't scale with INT, thus dealing a laughable 900 or some negligible amount. Seriously. Physick heals for basically nothing. The fact you brought it up when I initially thought you meant Phoenix (which also isn't a great heal but hey, at least it does something) highlights you really don't understand how the jobs work. You're cherry picking examples that don't even support your argument. Neither Summoner nor Red Mage can accomplish anywhere near the raw healing Blue Mage can.

Sry if i repeat this, i´ve checked any site in a fast way and didn´t saw it between the skill and damage discussions.

Have you ever thought about the fact, that BLU itself is just content to keep you playing?

It´s not like any other class where you get your skills while leveling, you need to find / grind them. And if you wouldn´t check any guides, you would try it on your own. On top of that you´ve achievements to farm with a mount in the end. SE doesn´t even have to bother with real balancing. It´s just like playing a special questline in your own way.

It´s comparable to relic weapons, just way more special. You did all the current content, maybe leveled any class, farmed your mounts, whatever. Then you´re going to grind those fates / raids / dungeons. BLU is nothing else, but you don´t use a standard class. It´s just extended content and should stay like that.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

If you're going to not-so-subtly snark about "simple math," you really ought to check your own. The highest DPS a Black Mage accomplished in Stormblood was slightly over 10k. No job ever came remotely close to 14k. Bear in mind, this is Personal DPS, thus it isn't taking into consideration how much the Black Mage was buffed by other players like logs do nowadays otherwise known as raid DPS. Which is another reason you'll see discrepancies in parses. Logs also don't account for DoTs properly when uploaded. Simply put, Blue Mage deals a lot more than is being properly represented.



And by comparison, White Wind is better than Vercure by an under of magnitude. This is a full heal so long as the Blue Mage is at 50% or higher. Have a Paladin Cover them and you guarantee a party wide benediction. You can't keep ignoring how incredibly powerful this is. You wouldn't need to spam it as most bosses don't use many raid wides to begin with. Two Blue Mages rotating that can both balance their MP and DPS while keeping the party healed. That type of versatility isn't present in any other job.

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On the contrary, I did my homework .I have found several black mages posts with parses attached where they have parsed 14k and summoners who have parsed 11k.(posts were of 3 years of age) The math is already done for me. I just needed to compare the difference from 3 years ago to now.

White wind CAN be powerful but at the same time it is not.

It is in the sense of output but is far less efficient and cannot be relied on when you are putting out dps that your mp cannot keep up with. Lets say I DONT dps and I just tand back and spam it. then yes, however as a DPS you do not have the luxury to waste 1500 mp on it as often as redmage does with vercure or your MP will bottom out completely. It is not a FULL HEAL as it only heals with current hp. In order to heal a player they would have to be nearby and rather close as its range is limited. A stack would have to occur. Meanwhile vercure has more range. Hypothetically there is a healer mechanic where it drops the party to 30% hp. Blue mage would heal for 30% of its hp and those around it. Now if it were to drop blue mages hp to 20% it would only heal for 20% We all know mechanics out there that can drop your hp drastically.( A DPSing blue mage will not have enough mp to cast diamond back unless they withhold alot of their attacks) If a blue mages health drops below 50% it wont be a full heal and it will be costly none the less. There is no set value as comparing it to level80 tanks, it would take 2 casts from 50% hp to fully heal a tank(If they are withing range) costing 3000 mp. That alone is too costly.

So in summery, white wind's limited range and cost is its ultimate downfall in comparison to other heals where the party members might not be in range and if you really wanted to heal them, you would have to get closer causing a possible second cast (IF YOU WERE REALLY THAT DESPERATE TO HEAL) My full rotation costs between 4500-6000 which does not keep up with the mp recovery. Unless they reduce the cost of diamond back or white wind, I hardly find it usable when dpsing and if I were to use it, it would be on a stacking point.

White wind is strong yes, but its ranged and power is limited just as its cost is too high to use often.



Since we are compairing redmage, Let us discuss verraise. Verraise has no cooldown as its cost is high. You can use it as your MP can handle. However blue mage raise has a 5 min CD.
Now there are several occaisions every redmage that is dpsing doesnt have good MP sustain to cast a raise in the moment to revive a downed healer or tank.
White wind is very similar in the matter where it is not something we can cast freely without a high cost.

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Originally Posted by Koka-Kola

On the contrary, I did my homework .I have found several black mages posts with parses attached where they have parsed 14k and summoners who have parsed 11k.(posts were of 3 years of age) The math is already done for me. I just needed to compare the difference from 3 years ago to now.

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???

Three years ago would put us roughly in the middle of Stormblood (somewhere in the middle of Sigmascape’s tier). No DPS job was parsing 14k back then. Where are you even getting this data from? I’d love to see these supposed logs where BLM’s were hitting 14k in 4.x.

I (regretfully) cannot find the redit pose anymore so let's use a BLM's post of 8k without echo. As stated before on this thread, a solo blue mage pushed 16k and can burst 32k. that is with blues solo buff solo buff which doubles damage and healing. so without that buff it would be 8k (which I assume since this is first phase, used the instants not all at once) and burst at 16k (which I assume is all instant casts active) that would mean at tops it can deal 16k dps in a short succession or 8k in a long fight.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxE_...=TheSwordSaint

I didn't realise basic instinct was so strong. Also, they are in healer mimicry, change that to DPS minicry for the crit and DH boost, they will do more damage.

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Originally Posted by Koka-Kola

I (regretfully) cannot find the redit pose anymore so let's use a BLM's post of 8k without echo. As stated before on this thread, a solo blue mage pushed 16k and can burst 32k. that is with blues solo buff solo buff which doubles damage and healing. so without that buff it would be 8k (which I assume since this is first phase, used the instants not all at once) and burst at 16k (which I assume is all instant casts active) that would mean at tops it can deal 16k dps in a short succession or 8k in a long fight.

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so dps wise, blue mage is on par to late stormblood blm.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxE_...=TheSwordSaint

I didn't realise basic instinct was so strong. Also, they are in healer mimicry, change that to DPS minicry for the crit and DH boost, they will do more damage.

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with 20 percent crit rate, I have no doubt that their dps will increase but there is no set value to add in with the current parse. It would have to be re-parsed

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Originally Posted by Koka-Kola

white wind's limited range

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How is white wind's range limited when it's the same as all the other aoe heals with the exception of medica 2 and afflatus rapture (both being 20 yalm) and cure 3( only being 6 yalms)?

At this point, there really needs to be a test done. Party of non Blue Mages Vs party that includes Blue Mages. It's probably the only way to definitively compare them rather than all the speculating.

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Originally Posted by Maltothoris

How is white wind's range limited when it's the same as all the other aoe heals with the exception of medica 2 and afflatus rapture (both being 20 yalm) and cure 3( only being 6 yalms)?

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Its range is limited as I would have to be closer to an ally for it to heal them than a target spell (pomcure for example) Trying to heal with that spell is difficult unless the party stacks and remains within range while casting unless swift casted. other heals are not effective or reliable in dps mimicry. For blue mage to sustain dps, it would have to have to keep dps mimicry. White wind is not something to rely on healing the party in accountability of repositioning, casting, and possibly recasting if your ally moves mid cast. then you have to consider the cost and how much mp you already burn from dps rotations. you COULD save mp by withholding dps and save mp just incase you want to heal. point is it would harm your DPS.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

At this point, there really needs to be a test done. Party of non Blue Mages Vs party that includes Blue Mages. It\\'s probably the only way to definitively compare them rather than all the speculating.

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I whole heartedly agree

Well the problem there is the fault of the other person for standing in Narnia. You would always be close to your healers for their ogcd healing in Asylum, sacred soil, and earthly star etc when it come to that instead of wasting a spot heal on them.

Also blue mage would be so overpowered in DR and DR savage with the hp values in there I could easily see them having to increase the chance of lost arise working to even consider bringing in a healer.

Edit: That being said, if it stay limited at least let blu mage queue for lvling roul and all that stuff.

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Originally Posted by Koka-Kola

I (regretfully) cannot find the redit pose anymore so let's use a BLM's post of 8k without echo. As stated before on this thread, a solo blue mage pushed 16k and can burst 32k. that is with blues solo buff solo buff which doubles damage and healing. so without that buff it would be 8k (which I assume since this is first phase, used the instants not all at once) and burst at 16k (which I assume is all instant casts active) that would mean at tops it can deal 16k dps in a short succession or 8k in a long fight.

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You probably can’t find it because a DPS sustaining 14,000 in personal damage in the middle of Sigmascape was impossible. So these logs you are talking about never existed in the first place.

Looking at the highest ranked log for God Kefka, it was a BLM at a bit over 7800 personal DPS on August 15, 2018. Nowhere near the 14,000 you claimed you saw. Sure you weren’t looking at opener burst damage? Because that isn’t the same as sustained damage—which is what matters. SB BRD had some of the highest opening burst among DPS jobs. It wasn’t as strong overall as SMN or BLM.

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Originally Posted by Koka-Kola

Its range is limited as I would have to be closer to an ally for it to heal them than a target spell (pomcure for example) Trying to heal with that spell is difficult unless the party stacks and remains within range while casting unless swift casted. other heals are not effective or reliable in dps mimicry. For blue mage to sustain dps, it would have to have to keep dps mimicry. White wind is not something to rely on healing the party in accountability of repositioning, casting, and possibly recasting if your ally moves mid cast. then you have to consider the cost and how much mp you already burn from dps rotations. you COULD save mp by withholding dps and save mp just incase you want to heal. point is it would harm your DPS.

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But BLU would basically encounter the same problems as healers. Their range for White Wind is not some surprisingly limited, Cure III-like range. It’s the same as all other standard heals with the exception of two. Your main concern you pointed out was the limited range—that doesn’t actually exist.

If party members are standing in Narnia when you’re trying to heal—which they do with real healers, too, trust me—then that isn’t your fault. Nor does it negate any effectiveness of your healing skill. They’re just being dumb. MP costs are something all healers have to consider as well. None of these “concerns” are particularly special or limited to BLU.

I swear I found it before but I was most likely mistook it for post shb and I acknowledge my mistake and corrected it in a previous post.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxE_...=TheSwordSaint

I didn't realise basic instinct was so strong. Also, they are in healer mimicry, change that to DPS minicry for the crit and DH boost, they will do more damage.

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Thanks for watching! This is Isshin aka The Sword Saint [Playlist for newcomers to my channel]

Yes, one man with basic instinct > 2 men. Reason being BLU under healer spec can pop Gobskin that covers almost half of the HP (cuz the healing is doubled). One can kitchen-sink a stack mechanic with only Gobskin but have to DB with a buddy.

In my opinion, BLU is too weak on the tanking side. Currently we have two cds in solo, dragon force & chelonion gate (+DB of course) while battle tanks have 3 + 1 unique cd. I wish we could pick between tank and healer in a solo content.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zxE_...=TheSwordSaint

I didn't realise basic instinct was so strong. Also, they are in healer mimicry, change that to DPS minicry for the crit and DH boost, they will do more damage.

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Nah, we don't go into DPS mimicry when soloing - you don't have the actual heal power to tank stuff if you wanted DPS mimicry other than white wind (which may not always be applicable when you take tankbusters in addition to the MP cost). Only reason BLU goes healer mimicry is because their heals are also 2x as strong - so pom cure becomes a 1000 potency heal in solo content and gobskin is a 500 potency shield instead of a 250 shield. Gobskin is a flat shield skill that doesn't scale off of healing, which is what allowed BLU to tank the burns in the first place in Phase 2 when you can't heal.

I think they can easily make BLU a "normal" yet "luxury" job simultaneously. They could make BLU work similarly to how it did in XI. Due to the nature of BLU, it would make it challenging and rewarding to obtain all the spells. Obviously some spells would have to be reworked or tweaked to make this work but I think many BLU fans would be excited about it.

It will work by creating 3 different sets of spells that decide what role the BLU will be filling. This would make it so that BLU can essentially fill any role needed, with DPS being the starting role (as it currently is). Tank and healer roles for BLU can be unlocked by obtaining all the spells for each role set. You would not be able to use spells outside of your current set nor change sets/roles in duty or battles. It may require some effort on their part but I can see it happening and it would greatly amplify the versatility of BLU without it being OP whilst making their subscribers happy. As it stands, BLU is almost worthless to level or play with the exception of it being a great job for FATE grinding lol.

Blu Tank is too weak I think.

DPS is the middle ground.

Healer is busted. You do a whole lot with little effort.

Pairing Basic Instinct with Healer Mimicry is the go to for the Permanent Sprint + 100% increased damage and heals + spells can't be interrupted and no damage penalty.

Really nice. I think Blu does some really competent DPS in their burst windows. It's only really Tanking that Blu falls short because you have to play the Tanking game with knowing the fight since every Tank CD or skill has a cast bar. A problem the other tanks don't have.

If they want to balance things I'd suggest that players can have their own builds for Party Finder shenanigan's but for Duty Finder and main story content I feel the devs should put together Tank/DPS/Healer sets that they feel would make it balanced for everyone.

With the DPS sets everyone runs if they squish the damage you can put them on par with the other classes. Blu is mostly burst windows and then a filler spell.

But hey time will tell.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

It's only really Tanking that Blu falls short because you have to play the Tanking game with knowing the fight since every Tank CD or skill has a cast bar. A problem the other tanks don't have.

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Very much this. All of the bosses were designed with those CD's being insta cast ogcd abilities to begin with... So there's a huge disconnect in how Blue Mages play the tanking game there. They have pretty strong tools in Chelonian Gate and Dragon Force, but for them to be used successfully you need a) Not to be casting anything at that time (to make sure the GCD isn't rolling) b) Have instant reflexes to press the key ASAP, and even at that, some tankbusters come out so fast that you just can't react properly with those having cast times.

It's pretty funny that in some situations, the tankbuster survivability actually comes fully from the HEALERS, since it's more likely for them to be able to time in a White Wind rather than the tank mitigating that damage with the applicable tools.

The simplest solution is to change those spells to be insta-cast with Tanking Mimicry.

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Originally Posted by Hank_Hotspur

I think the more important part of keeping Blue Mages similar to how they were in previous FF games was to make them actually usable in the main game rather than a side thing. While earning spells from enemies has been a staple, no way would the job become beloved if you couldn't use it in dungeons or story quests from FFV on. Right now, FFXIV Blue Mage is more like the Gold Saucer, Triple Triad, Tetra Master, Blitzball, or any of the other side content from a normal FF game rather than a job: it's something you do as a side distraction before getting back to the meat and potatoes main game offers.

We've come to understand that MMO conventions mean things from regular FF games must be altered. I love Red Mages in the other games as a jack of all trades, but they wouldn't fit into the role paradigms of this game, so it was changed. I like Red Mage in FFXIV very much, making it a caster with a melee combo and some token white magic utility spells was a very pragmatic adaptation. So why is it that every other job is subjected to some form of alteration to fit the MMO gameplay but it would just be too unreasonable for Blue Mages to undergo the same?

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Yeah, I really agree with this. The current mage implementation feels like a downgrade from previous FF games where Blue Mage could be a main job. The current Blue Mage really is just for goofing around which is a big disappointment.

Was playing XI a month or two back, and was having a blast playing BLU there. Reminded me how much the completely butchered the class for this game...

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Originally Posted by Koka-Kola

so dps wise, blue mage is on par to late stormblood blm.

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16k is heckin mid-Shadowbringers level dps, bud. Only 3 parses got past 10k in Stormblood raiding at all, never mind what one would reasonably expect.

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Originally Posted by Mikey_R

At this point, there really needs to be a test done. Party of non Blue Mages Vs party that includes Blue Mages. It's probably the only way to definitively compare them rather than all the speculating.

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Blue mages are pushing into the 5 digits regularly in SB.

Black Mages in SB pushed into 5 digits 3 times total in all SB raiding.

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Only 3 parses got past 10k in Stormblood raiding at all,

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Originally Posted by Gruntler

Black Mages in SB pushed into 5 digits 3 times total in all SB raiding.

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I may be exposing my ignorance here, but how can you tell?

I know that it’s beating a dead horse by asking SE to make BLU a normal job, but SE should really consider adding some type of duty spell set for BLU. As we have seen Square has had trouble with managing the stuff they have already added into the game such as Viera and Hrothgar headgear and Ultimate trials. It’s not realistic to work on BLU as a side project it extra work for the developers since they would have to create unique BLU only experiences.

If BLU remains as is we probably won’t see new content for it for at least 2-3 years…

At least as a regular functioning job it would have content every 4 months, and it could get new spells every expansion cycle.

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Originally Posted by Brightshadow

I know that it’s beating a dead horse by asking SE to make BLU a normal job, but SE should really consider adding some type of duty spell set for BLU. As we have seen Square has had trouble with managing the stuff they have already added into the game such as Viera and Hrothgar headgear and Ultimate trials. It’s not realistic to work on BLU as a side project it extra work for the developers since they would have to create unique BLU only experiences.

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Viera and Hrothgar headgear and hairstyles are a completely different situation unrelated to limited jobs. The Viera/Hrothgar situation is related to character modeling and maintaining option parity between the two races. Hrothgar are likely the reason Viera have not gotten any new hairstyles. It takes a lot more work to give Hrothgar new hairstyles.

Ultimates are limited more by the number of battle system planners who are actually skilled enough to design the fights and the massive amount of time needed to tune those fights. BLU and other Limited Job exclusive content requires a lot less skill and work to design and tune. BLU isn't getting in the way of the Ultimates; the Ultimates get in they way of designing every other type of battle content.

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If BLU remains as is we probably won’t see new content for it for at least 2-3 years…

At least as a regular functioning job it would have content every 4 months, and it could get new spells every expansion cycle.

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It does get new content every expansion cycle. It might not get stuff every patch but BLU got 2 updates during 5.X. Even if it does only get 1 update during 6.X that should be fine as long as another limited job such as BST is introduced to complement things.

I Just wanted to point out an "impossibile" idea, but you know.. dreaming Is free..
What if BLU remain as It Is, but if you find all of its spells you unlock a new Quest that unlocks 3 new Jobs (with 3 differents crystals)
TLU (Tank blu) DLU (dps blu) and HLU (healer blu).
So.. you keep the limited job as It Is, with all its jimmicks, and you create 3 new REAL Jobs that use Blu skills as base (not all of them of course).
So for example pom cure Will become the standard gcd heal of Hlu, diamond back the invuln of Tlu, excetera.
The LITTLE problem Is that 3 new Jobs would Need to be designed almost from scratch.
Also something Need to be done about the lore and when new contents, spells and levels Will be added.. but you know.. i'll do It in my spare time if se allows me lol..

Just out of my head.. Azuro could point out 3 disciples that specialize in the 3 Roles, while he remains "a Jack of all trades"

First and foremost, I agree that I think BLU should not be a limited job forever. I would like to see it increased to level 80 around 6.1 and hopefully catch it up to 90 at around 6.4-6.5 and while reaching that level, it can be unlocked as a playable job in all content.

However

It cannot exist the way it currently does as a contestable job with other caster DPS. The Bluemage Spellbook is filled with repetition, extremely niche tools, and outright ludicrous abilities that do not fit into the way content is designed from a fundamental level. I see players frequently saying 'Why does that matter? Who cares?' Imagine if Tekken decided to add a character like Link from The Legend of Zelda, but he played as he does in Smash Bros but in Tekken. It wouldn't work, and similarly, the BLU that we have does not fit in any capacity with the game's core design elements. That's why it's a glorified minigame right now--because it breaks the mold on traditional gameplay that FFXIV has. This means it will either be aggressively OP and kick other DPS out of the meta or it will be too useless that anyone who tries to play BLU in party content will be chastised and kicked out.

One of the benefits to FFXIV's design is that no job has ever truly been 'unviable.' Sure there have been patches where some party creators wanted specific jobs, but that was always a fairly mild form of elitism that didn't realistically reflect the way the majority of content was experienced. Fully unlocking BLU as it exists now would drastically break that approach. It MUST be adjusted to accommodate the way the game is actually played.

Fortunately, the hardest and most expensive part about game design is animation, and with a wide library of spells to select from, a huge chunk of the work is already complete. What needs to happen is the developers would need to select a range of spells to essentially rebuild to create a new caster out of the BLU we currently have. We could paint this in game as a quest to "Refine Blue Magic Spells" where you gather resources to unlock refined versions of existing spells, and once all of them are refined, you now can switch between limited mode and unlimited mode, where unlimited mode has a preset build like any other job and can now be played with other players. The effects of these refined spells would also be streamlined to be consistent with other Caster DPS, though BLU should still have it's own playstyle of course.

We could also have a limited selection of slots where you actually can very slightly customized your BLU caster. For example, you can opt for Angel's Whisper to bring added revive utility or some form of added DPS to bring it more in line with BLM's power. The added damage would obviously be preferred, but teams could easily opt to bring Angel's Whisper instead while progging and swap it out later once they become familiar with the fight. We could also, in the future, work toward building a true-to-its-name Healer BLU and Tank BLU, though I imagine not all 3 would be released simultaneously.

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Originally Posted by Garten

I Just wanted to point out an "impossibile" idea, but you know.. dreaming Is free..
What if BLU remain as It Is, but if you find all of its spells you unlock a new Quest that unlocks 3 new Jobs (with 3 differents crystals)
TLU (Tank blu) DLU (dps blu) and HLU (healer blu).
So.. you keep the limited job as It Is, with all its jimmicks, and you create 3 new REAL Jobs that use Blu skills as base (not all of them of course).
So for example pom cure Will become the standard gcd heal of Hlu, diamond back the invuln of Tlu, excetera.
The LITTLE problem Is that 3 new Jobs would Need to be designed almost from scratch.
Also something Need to be done about the lore and when new contents, spells and levels Will be added.. but you know.. i'll do It in my spare time if se allows me lol..

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I think they'd rather spend the time/energy into making new jobs instead of designing 3 different flavors of BLU... :/

However, I think it can be done with what we have. 'take' on BLU turned regular DPS would be:


A new spell... let's call it "Blue Stance" for the lack of a better name.

1) It's sold via a new BLU NPC. To get it you must have a number of specific spells learned, the tools required to be a dpser. It cannot be used together with Mimicry;

2) When you use this spell, it replaces your Blue spellbook actionbar with an unique active set, filled with specific spells for the dpser role. You can't choose different spells while under this stance.

3) The stance also activates a job gauge. I always wondered that an Elemental Wheel inspired on Eureka's, that changed dynamically so you'd have to use specific spells, would be a nice touch.

4) This stance allows the player to queue as a DPS caster or get into current level instances with non-limited jobs.

There you go, just a single toggleable stance can put you into this 'very on-leashes dpser mode' like the others, while still keeping the alternative gameplay. It would use specific spells to the role, and since the spellbook in this case is not customizable, it can simply not contain certain 'broken' spells for regular content like White Wind.


But what about future updates with new expansions?

Come a new xpac, the vendor can have for example "Blue Stance II". A new totem acquired spell that fills your bars with slightly different spells introduced in the new expansion, this new Blue Stance II allows you to queue for the new xpac's content, that Blue Stance I wouldn't.

Ty_taurus and Raikai both made nice points. Blu could be both. A limited Jobs with its catch em all spells, arena and mini games. Then add some sort of mechanic that can be toogled to trasform It in a magical caster dps. While that mechanic Is Active It would be like a different job, but still using some of its spells acquired but with adjusted potencies and effects.
It would be a ff14 version of blu mage, like RDM Is a ff14 version of Red Mage.

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Originally Posted by Garten

Ty_taurus and Raikai both made nice points. Blu could be both. A limited Jobs with its catch em all spells, arena and mini games. Then add some sort of mechanic that can be toogled to trasform It in a magical caster dps. While that mechanic Is Active It would be like a different job, but still using some of its spells acquired but with adjusted potencies and effects.
It would be a ff14 version of blu mage, like RDM Is a ff14 version of Red Mage.

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Exactly... the whole idea is around the argument that BLU can't be a regular dpser due to the fact that its versatility would bring chaos and imbalance to the other jobs. Which kind of makes sense with the design they are trying to foster, when you look, everyone else's gameplay is pretty tight. Every RDM plays the same, and you're expected to play the same... There's no such thing as a BLM being an "Ice Mage".

Basically all we need is one spell that puts the job in a "stance mode" with a non-changeable list of spells (static spellbook setup), and this stance flags it as eligible for a certain range of content. With the terrible cheesy name I came up with:

Blue Stance I: Works for ARR-ShB
Blue Stance II: Works for EW
Blue Stance III: 7.0, et cetera

This idea also allows the developers to go for updated kit designs without relying on Traits.

The only compromise for this to work in a more organized way, however, would probably be an adjustment as in only letting "regular" Blue Mage builds go into content with either undersized parties or if you're working just with other Blue Mage groups, or solo. Else, you'd have to have one Blue Stance activated to flag yourself eligible.

And of course, the prospect of Full Blue groups tackling current content with custom builds can be an issue, so if you're in Endwalker, you would see the message "You need to be in Blue Stance II to undertake this duty", which would be lifted witht he following expansion... Which is basically like you experience the content now, of only being allowed to go one expansion prior. This is just a measure to also allow Blue Mage levels to be paired with the current content.

Edit: How about weapons? Althought it would be nice, since BLU starts at level 1, they don't really need to design weapons for old content, just make one of the canes scale up to a certain point like the Aetherythe earring does.

Stop trying to balance Blue Mage.

I'm not really sure what there is to debate here.

If a job is introduced as a "side thing", then that's stupid. An entire job class shouldn't be a mini-game. That's an insipid waste of resources. If you're going to implement something, do it correctly.

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Originally Posted by MagiusNecros

Stop trying to balance Blue Mage.

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No. I think SE should be harassed to do their job correctly. Considering the buy-in and subscription model, they don't get the luxury of "Free game, don't complain." I expect competency. Not a lazy handwave. Tired enough of them butchering any class that isn't DPS, but now they can't even be bothered to fix something they broke? Please.