When will fans turn on Yoshi P?

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Nice necro thread, but feel like answering it anyway.


Most people? Never, but as soon as the story takes a turn that people don't like. The very very loud and twisted part of the community will come out and start being stupid. And that will make it seem like it is the community when it is only a handful of little brats.

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Calling people that might have certain criticisms for the story loud and twisted isn't the take you think it is bub.

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Originally Posted by Theodric

Why would people be 'twisted' if they offer critique of the story when that is often touted as the game's main selling point?

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How they act around it is the problem.


This community has a set group of people who use this game as such a escape, that anything bad happens story, or if someone says anything bad about it. They find offense in it. You can not be happy with how the story goes, but these social media warriors who take offense and attack people or developers are the ones I'm talking about.

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Originally Posted by BaconBits

Calling people that might have certain criticisms for the story loud and twisted isn't the take you think it is bub.

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Or maybe you can see the thread topic. I understand that the forum is the worse part of the community and people got thin skin. But the thread is when will people turn on yoshi, and my answer was crystal clear. Most people won't turn on him, but this community has a small amount of mental cases that find offense when the story does not go how they want. This community tends to ignore them, but we need to call them out, they need help and ignoring them is more cruel.

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Originally Posted by t0rn

It’s possible that they won’t get an expansion right. If that happens, the fans will turn on the face of Final Fantasy IV, Yoshi. It happened with WoW, will it happen with FFXIV? There will be more years of the game, yes, but will he still be in touch with what the players want?

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First of all, there's no kind way to say this, so I'll just say it: a significant portion of this game's playerbase will support it no matter what; it's basically their religion (it fills that little nook within their hearts). So those people will never leave until the servers shut down.

Second, the chances of them just outright BOMBING an expansion - like WoW did with Shadowlands - seem relatively small. The people who run this company appear to hold video games as an art form rather than just some place they work - the idea that they would just poop out some kind of turd of an expac seems very unlikely based on what we know. An expansion might suck on some fronts, but all? Probably won't happen.

Finally, it took WoW a pattern of dud (Warlords), win (Legion), dud (BFA), dud (Shadowlands) - so back-to-back failures - coupled with an extremely public collapse of trust in the company over non-gameplay concerns, to finally put the dagger in the beast (WoW won't close after the events of this past month, but it will never be the same). So, in the very least, SE would have to fail on concurrent expansions to really start to look shaky.

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Originally Posted by TeraRamis

Second, the chances of them just outright BOMBING an expansion - like WoW did with Shadowlands - seem relatively small. The people who run this company appear to hold video games as an art form rather than just some place they work - the idea that they would just poop out some kind of turd of an expac seems very unlikely based on what we know. An expansion might suck on some fronts, but all? Probably won't happen.

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I agree with everything except this part. SE has mishandled a IP before. Most recently is the Avengers game. Yoshi P was the right person to put on this game and he and his team saved this game no questions asked, but I'm more worried about who comes next. If XVI knocks it out of the park, SE would have little reason not to promote the man and the next man in line has a some big shoes to fill.

Players will turn on YoshiP when he turns on them. It's not like players want to hate the devs, but when devs attack them, players punch back. This was true with Ghostcrawler and his "Dungeons are hard" blog post during Cataclysm, and it's true for Ion and his "it's just a skill issue," interview for Shadowlands. The reason this community as a whole loves the SE developers is that they genuinely seem to care for the community. Here is the contrast in attitudes in a nutshell:

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SE - We make endgame gear readily accessible to everyone so that players of all skill levels can play together. We refuse to integrate ACT into the game because we don't want players to call each other bad.

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Blizzard - We're locking endgame gear behind a timed M+ system to differentiate the elites from the scrubs. Most players are bad, and we're integrating a raider.io-like rating system into the game so that you don't have to run content with bad players.

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When devs are openly hostile to the majority of their playerbase, the majority of the playerbase turns hostile. It's common sense, but Blizzard seems to lack it these days. Thankfully, SE seems to have it in spades.

The difference between WOW and FFXIV is that when blizzard messes up an expansion they dont communicate the problems to the playerbase.

We remember Eureka and Pagos. Many people were angry with that system and how it was implemented. It was a dark time for Stormblood in general which is often why people refer to SB as the least favorite expansion.

Yoshi P addressed the community in live letters, forum posts, etc. He addressed them. If Yoshi P continues to communicate to the community, then we will never turn on him.

Blizzard doesnt care about their community so their fans were bound to turn on them eventually.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

Nice necro thread

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Only a handful of month old, rather see that necro than 4-6 year old ones we seen lately.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

Snip

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Player already call players bad, ACT or not in-game doesn't change that.

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Originally Posted by Ronduwil

Players will turn on YoshiP when he turns on them. It's not like players want to hate the devs, but when devs attack them, players punch back. This was true with Ghostcrawler and his "Dungeons are hard" blog post during Cataclysm, and it's true for Ion and his "it's just a skill issue," interview for Shadowlands. The reason this community as a whole loves the SE developers is that they genuinely seem to care for the community. Here is the contrast in attitudes in a nutshell:



When devs are openly hostile to the majority of their playerbase, the majority of the playerbase turns hostile. It's common sense, but Blizzard seems to lack it these days. Thankfully, SE seems to have it in spades.

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Yep, this right here. Sums things up perfectly. I started playing somewhere in the middle of WotLK and I watched the community as a whole turn sour as the years went on. Sure, there were salty people and your typical jerks around to begin with, but...it wasn't anywhere near this bad, at least when I started. I blame the dev team a lot on this one, but I also feel it was a double edged sword. After awhile I think they just stopped caring because they couldn't do anything right.

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Originally Posted by t0rn

It’s possible that they won’t get an expansion right. If that happens, the fans will turn on the face of Final Fantasy IV, Yoshi. It happened with WoW, will it happen with FFXIV? There will be more years of the game, yes, but will he still be in touch with what the players want?

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Wow had several different game directors before things got bad for them. Cata caused a lot of people to leave the WoW. But the game still retained a lot of good will. The past three years have been the worst for reception and that's because of the state of all Blizzard products and several controversies.

I find it pretty hard to listen to the community. If half of them demands something, the other half may gets disappointed.

Speaking of WoW, some things, which ruined WoW, actually came from the community itself. I believe thats why Blizzard just stopped to listen to its community or giving up in total. The magic is gone and with it, the motivation to make a better game.

I cant imagine how hard the job of Yoshi-P must be. And he did a good job for the most part. Lets see what will happen with Endwalker.

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Originally Posted by t0rn

It’s possible that they won’t get an expansion right. If that happens, the fans will turn on the face of Final Fantasy IV, Yoshi. It happened with WoW, will it happen with FFXIV? There will be more years of the game, yes, but will he still be in touch with what the players want?

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Please look forward to it.

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Originally Posted by Caitlyn

I find it pretty hard to listen to the community. If half of them demands something, the other half may gets disappointed.

Speaking of WoW, some things, which ruined WoW, actually came from the community itself. I believe thats why Blizzard just stopped to listen to its community or giving up in total. The magic is gone and with it, the motivation to make a better game.

I cant imagine how hard the job of Yoshi-P must be. And he did a good job for the most part. Lets see what will happen with Endwalker.

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I don't think the community asked for endless systems that are removed or replaced each patch. Nor pathfinder. That was Blizzard's idea for WoD. No one asked for classes to be gutted for these systems. No one asked for smaller maps, endless bugs that keep piling up. People warned about the problems with the latest expacs in Alpha, Beta and PTR. They didn't listen.

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Originally Posted by Soulebreaker

I don't think the community asked for endless systems that are removed or replaced each patch. Nor pathfinder. That was Blizzard's idea for WoD. No one asked for classes to be gutted for these systems. No one asked for smaller maps, endless bugs that keep piling up. People warned about the problems with the latest expacs in Alpha, Beta and PTR. They didn't listen.

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Yeah, the community as a whole asked for a lot of QoL stuff. I don't recall ever seeing anyone ask for what the game is riddled with now, at least not to any significant degree. When the dev team said that they were making the game that THEY wanted to play and wanted others to join (sub) I don't think they were lying. It is quite clear that they are catering solely to themselves and like minded players. That and they were supposedly working with an increasingly more limited budget thanks to Activision made for a perfect storm of sorts.

I remember reading some time ago about the day leading up to the ceremony where YoshiP introduced himself to the FFXIV 1.0 team and spoke about when he was on a train he encountered a current player of 1.0, and the player thanked him for what he was doing for the game, and hugged YoshiP. (I think I recall him saying they hugged) but I do remember that this made YoshiP tear up during the ceremony.

So I guess my question is; why would players turn on YoshiP?

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Originally Posted by Sotaris

Player already call players bad, ACT or not in-game doesn't change that.

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And they get penalized for harassment when they do. Without ACT, 90% of the players have no way of knowing how good or bad everyone else in the group is. They may notice repeated deaths or mechanic failures, but that's about it. Incorporating ACT into the game would ramp up the toxicity level really quickly. You don't need to convince me one way or the other, though. YoshiP's opinion on the matter is the only one that matters, and he's made it pretty clear:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e_i6mjiGerU

Here's his position on people using it:

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So if someone asks you (to use it), please say, "Yoshi P says no, so it's better if you don't."

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Here's his reasoning for not integrating it into the game:

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We've always said we will not do that...
That system will be the root of bullying. I'm 100% confident in that. I'm aware that there will be people using it to calculate personal numbers, but I know you'll see this in party finders, "Only join if you can prove you can DPS xxx amount." We never want that to happen...
Sometimes you go into a dungeon after taking a break from the game. You item level might not be as high as others' that have been playing. It just becomes like that. It's inevitable that people start to crave efficiency. I personally don't enjoy games that are based purely off efficiency.

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Then he reiterates his warning about misusing the tool.

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So as we mentioned, we don't condone third party tools. Let's say that someone is using such a tool for personal purposes at their own risk, but they posted someone else's numbers online, maybe out of frustration. This is punishable for harassment irrespective of the whole third party tool argument. "This person's DPS was low, so I had a hard time." That's a penalty for harassment.

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This is a huge difference in philosophy from the WoW dev team, which actively condones and supports such metrics. The whole M+ dungeon system, which is currently the primary form of end game gearing, is built completely around them. They've supported it further with an in-game rating system that tags every player with an efficiency rating so that you can exclude them at will. SE promotes good will and cooperation, so their players respond in kind. Blizzard promotes contention and exclusivity, so of course its playerbase will respond contentiously. Both companies are reaping what they're sowing.

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Originally Posted by Wavaryen

I understand that the forum is the worse part of the community

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Oh, you sweet innocent summer child.

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Originally Posted by Soulebreaker

I don't think the community asked for endless systems that are removed or replaced each patch. Nor pathfinder. That was Blizzard's idea for WoD. No one asked for classes to be gutted for these systems. No one asked for smaller maps, endless bugs that keep piling up. People warned about the problems with the latest expacs in Alpha, Beta and PTR. They didn't listen.

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No, they didnt ask for that. But at some point, the Devs just gave up for some reason. They dont want to listen to their comm anymore. Maybe because of frustration or lazyness.
Listen to the community is good. But listen too much is not. If you re a game designer, its YOUR game. You need feedback from your fans, of course. But should never forgot your roots ; )

If it didn't happen for Shadowbringers (content-wise, not story-wise) then it won't happen in the near future lmao

The disdain the WoW community has with it's developers is way more complex and rooted deeper than just "Getting an expansion wrong." If you somehow think that all It would take for fans of FFXIV to show the level of distrust and contempt towards Yoshi P. is messing up a single expansion, you truly don't understand this game or it's community.

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Originally Posted by Selova

The disdain the WoW community has with it's developers is way more complex and rooted deeper than just "Getting an expansion wrong." If you somehow think that all It would take for fans of FFXIV to show the level of distrust and contempt towards Yoshi P. is messing up a single expansion, you truly don't understand this game or it's community.

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That disdain is well-earned. In fact, setting aside recent events, it's largely disdain that's bred from disdain. If Ion Hazzikostas wasn't such an aloof, taciturn, arrogant git, people might have at least had a bit of good will left going into the whole sexual harassment scandal. Modern Blizzard doesn't talk to the playerbase - at all. They don't have class leads anymore; they don't field questions (outside of Blizzcon, where - unsurprisingly - they've frequently been embarrassed by inquiries shouted at them from the bleachers); they don't talk about their vision for the game; they don't ask their customer base what they want - they act like they've done nothing but poop golden eggs for the past 2 decades.

So it would take a turnabout of that magnitude on the part of SE's top brass to see something similar occur here. Blizzard's fans aren't (or weren't) the petulant children that Blizzard collectively saw them as - not until they were treated like imbeciles. Amazingly, when you're openly scornful of your bread and butter, things tend to go south fast - especially when your executives can't keep it in their pants on the side.

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Originally Posted by TeraRamis

That disdain is well-earned. In fact, setting aside recent events, it's largely disdain that's bred from disdain. If Ion Hazzikostas wasn't such an aloof, taciturn, arrogant git, people might have at least had a bit of good will left going into the whole sexual harassment scandal. Modern Blizzard doesn't talk to the playerbase - at all. They don't have class leads anymore; they don't field questions (outside of Blizzcon, where - unsurprisingly - they've frequently been embarrassed by inquiries shouted at them from the bleachers); they don't talk about their vision for the game; they don't ask their customer base what they want - they act like they've done nothing but poop golden eggs for the past 2 decades.

So it would take a turnabout of that magnitude on the part of SE's top brass to see something similar occur here. Blizzard's fans aren't (or weren't) the petulant children that Blizzard collectively saw them as - not until they were treated like imbeciles. Amazingly, when you're openly scornful of your bread and butter, things tend to go south fast - especially when your executives can't keep it in their pants on the side.

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https://media.giphy.com/media/ftdF4Z...c4b5/giphy.gif

I am seeing a trend with the OP's threads...

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I am seeing a trend with the OP's threads...

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It's strange how relevant the topic ended up being though. lol Not necessarily what the OP said (let's face it, it was mostly nonsense) but the discussion that resulted months later.

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Originally Posted by Caitlyn

No, they didnt ask for that. But at some point, the Devs just gave up for some reason. They dont want to listen to their comm anymore. Maybe because of frustration or lazyness.
Listen to the community is good. But listen too much is not. If you re a game designer, its YOUR game. You need feedback from your fans, of course. But should never forgot your roots ; )

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They could have at least listened to the private testers. They didn't even do that. They love their bubble. Now they are paying for that.

with WoW and hunters, I think before WoD, there was a thread for hunters where Blizzard said we are listening, two capped threads on everything wrong, well laid out, with what they were doing with hunters. the only blue post was the first one and zero changed. and every bad thing made it into the release. nothing was changed.

Blizzard tells you how to play and essentially says "if you dont like it, dont let the door hit you on the way out"

they have years of experience in doing just that with the people paying their salaries. Yoshi and crew dont appear cut from the same cloth, and you can tell. I agree they shouldnt listen to all player feedback, but they do seem to listen and are at least transparent. Something Blizzard seems to avoid with a passion

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Originally Posted by Kes13a

with WoW and hunters, I think before WoD, there was a thread for hunters where Blizzard said we are listening, two capped threads on everything wrong, well laid out, with what they were doing with hunters. the only blue post was the first one and zero changed. and every bad thing made it into the release. nothing was changed.

Blizzard tells you how to play and essentially says "if you dont like it, dont let the door hit you on the way out"

they have years of experience in doing just that with the people paying their salaries. Yoshi and crew dont appear cut from the same cloth, and you can tell. I agree they shouldnt listen to all player feedback, but they do seem to listen and are at least transparent. Something Blizzard seems to avoid with a passion

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We need to remember that Yoshi and his crew began FFXIV with the ultimate slapdown: their game sucked, and nobody wanted to play it. If you legitimately care about what you're doing, an experience like that can permanently humble you. And I think that's precisely why the second iteration of this game is so good.

There's no room for cocky disregard for the player when you were gifted a rare second chance after a strikeout and managed to hit a home run.

Yoshi P gave us Male Viera and before that he saved ff14 , he can do no wrong ever. unless he does somthing really messed up outside of game I dont see anyone turning on him over in game stuff.

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Originally Posted by TheMightyMollusk

Oh, you sweet innocent summer child.

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I look forward to the people ingame proving me wrong. Until that time, I'm going to put these forums at the bottom of the list of quality community. lol

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Originally Posted by AncientWillow

Well atleast he some what of an excuse due to language barrier.. wow doesn't and deliberately ignores players lol

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*puts on tinfoil hat* what if, in a world with a mostly english oriented internet and with plenty of sources/people that can translate, the language barrier is just an excuse to ignore a portion of the players? >:)

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Originally Posted by gotaname1

*puts on tinfoil hat* what if, in a world with a mostly english oriented internet and with plenty of sources/people that can translate, the language barrier is just an excuse to ignore a portion of the players? >:)

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Like giving latin americans a proper datacenter.

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Originally Posted by TeraRamis

That disdain is well-earned. In fact, setting aside recent events, it's largely disdain that's bred from disdain.

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Can you imagine if SE decided that Aetheryte Crystals were destroying the open world and making it feel less alive, so they unilaterally deleted most of them without any warning or feedback so that they could arbitrarily have only one per zone? I don't think anyone who exclusively plays this game can even imagine that happening. Blizzard pretty much did this a couple of years ago when they removed a ton of portals from WoW. When players complained on the forums, they doubled down on their stance that they did it to bring the open world and the major cities back to life. I see far more people in the open world in FFXIV than I ever saw in WoW. It's funny how a game that allows flying without time gates and provides cheap instant teleportation still manages to feel alive. It's almost like if you actually provide stuff to do in the world, people will engage with it. Forcing engagement by removing convenience is about the laziest design philosophy I've ever encountered.

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Originally Posted by MachaYum

Ffxiv is a cool game and all....but it’s quite a stretch to say Yoshi listens to us, lol. Unless a post has an absurd amount of up votes, chances are he won’t listen. And even if it does get a lot of up votes, it’s not even guaranteed to happen.

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He listen to players that is logic, sane, and understand for the most.
No one will listen to dumb, illogical, or out of place request.

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Originally Posted by t0rn

It’s possible that they won’t get an expansion right. If that happens, the fans will turn on the face of Final Fantasy IV, Yoshi. It happened with WoW, will it happen with FFXIV? There will be more years of the game, yes, but will he still be in touch with what the players want?

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Not yet in Endwalker, but who's to say. It seems like it's finally starting to turn. :)

It is happening already imo since his biggest fans only have one solution and that is to unsub, which I'm definitely doing right after the new patch because honestly, it's what everyone else is doing. When I see what some people are saying about the game and how it's going in a great direction it makes me realize it really isn't for me and I'm definitely not that person. I got into the game because I like FF, not because I'm an mmo fan. Seems weird that I'm the one calling for it to be less single player but that's what the core audience enjoys aside from cheating their way through Ultimates.

SE is frantically trying to attract new players to replace all the displeased people and Yoshi P is paralyzed by his cult, so it's a lose lose situation.

I don't know if its Yoshi P that is problem, but more who are the developers co-working with him that could be the problem? Battle Designer? Code Designer? Etc?

Because isn't Yoshi P just the figurehead? How much input does he really have?

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

I don't know if its Yoshi P that is problem, but more who are the developers co-working with him that could be the problem? Battle Designer? Code Designer? Etc?

Because isn't Yoshi P just the figurehead? How much input does he really have?

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If he was just the Producer like he is for XVI, then he'd mostly be just the figurehead as far as players are concerned. But as Game Director also, he has to make sure that all the different teams' work come together for what's released. He does have input though he's not directly responsible for creating the content as such.

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Originally Posted by Kaliesto

I don't know if its Yoshi P that is problem, but more who are the developers co-working with him that could be the problem? Battle Designer? Code Designer? Etc?

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They could possibly be the ones saying it has to continue to have all these issues with inventory being carried with you into duties, lack of instanced housing and UI issues (I still remember how the UI person's response to all our questions was "impossible" then subsequently went back on some of it proving that wrong).

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isn't Yoshi P just the figurehead?

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Absolutely not. He has a huge amount of input and it is very much him that is responsible for everything.

When the story isn't very good or a cutscene isn't very exciting, he tells them to make it better. When a savage raid is boring or too longwinded, he tells them to redo it or shorten a phase and add something else. He played through the Endwalker MSQ several times just to decide what time the sidequests should become available and then delayed the Endwalker release date by a week to add in a cutscene at the end.

You can see through past through interviews, that his perspective on things such as job uniqueness and complexity shifted over time and once it had shifted enough to the casual direction of "jobs don't necessarily need to be hard to play just fun", that's when everything changed about them, because it's he who decides and approves this.

A battle designer did recently give the impression in an interview that things such as the 2-minute burst window or the larger hitboxes was their idea, but a lot of their team would have been involved with making these changes so it was more likely a collective decision.

Yoshi-P is the person in charge and obviously approves everything and says no when he disagrees, so it is 100% correct to say the buck stops there.

When SE blocks mods / Mare and removes DC travel.