FF14 is not made for hardcore players.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darsien

Why do you feel it is acceptable for a healer or tank to steal 5-10 minutes from 3 other players when they can instead be considerate and not do that? What has given them that right and what makes their time so valuable that they may actively take it from the other players in the party?

Why is this selfishness acceptable to you?

---

No one has any right to anything, including time. The group will always decide anything that happens in the duty via going through with it, vote kick, or duty abandon.

Well, the individual does have a right to leave on their own and take any penalty that may apply.

At the end of the day, 5-10 minutes is an irrelevant amount of time for many people, and people will find ways to fill that time, just like they do with MS roulette or any other time that they spend playing an MMO.

If you are going to be participating in extreme and savage then yes, you do need to get better - MUCH BETTER at the game.

I don think any one expects you to be "perfect" if you are doing a dungeon - unless you are anything other then a DPS.

How ever, saying "new here" or "I am new" in chat at the beginning, if you are new, generally helps people not rage at you so hard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darsien

Why do you feel it is acceptable for a healer or tank to steal 5-10 minutes from 3 other players when they can instead be considerate and not do that? What has given them that right and what makes their time so valuable that they may actively take it from the other players in the party?

Why is this selfishness acceptable to you?

---

Seriously. People are not selfish for not spending 20 hours a week "improving" at a video game.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MilitaryVet123

Seriously. People are not selfish for not spending 20 hours a week "improving" at a video game.

---

I play less than that the vast majority of the time and I've cleared 2/3 Ultimates.

Come up with a new strawman, this whole "I don't have time" one is old.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

No one has any right to anything, including time. The group will always decide anything that happens in the duty via going through with it, vote kick, or duty abandon.

Well, the individual does have a right to leave on their own and take any penalty that may apply.

At the end of the day, 5-10 minutes is an irrelevant amount of time for many people, and people will find ways to fill that time, just like they do with MS roulette or any other time that they spend playing an MMO.

---

You're not the person I asked, but I'll respond. If no one has any right to time, then why is the default not "save as much time as is possible?" After all, you cannot possibly know if 5-10 minutes of time is significant to anyone other than yourself and saving time generally does not have significant downsides. If you had the opportunity to save time for a minimum of 3 players, would that alone not be justification enough to learn how to save that time, to play better? If not, why would you, or anyone, willfully choose to waste the time of the 3 other people when the cost on yourself is developing a skill?

Again, why is this selfishness acceptable to you?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darsien

You're not the person I asked, but I'll respond. If no one has any right to time, then why is the default not "save as much time as is possible?" After all, you cannot possibly know if 5-10 minutes of time is significant to anyone other than yourself and saving time generally does not have significant downsides. If you had the opportunity to save time for a minimum of 3 players, would that alone not be justification enough to learn how to save that time, to play better? If not, why would you, or anyone, willfully choose to waste the time of the 3 other people when the cost on yourself is developing a skill?

Again, why is this selfishness acceptable to you?

---

And developing a skill in a video game they're choosing to play on top of that all.

Why anyone would pay $15 a month to spam Cure 2 I will never understand...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darsien

You're not the person I asked, but I'll respond. If no one has any right to time, then why is the default not "save as much time as is possible?" After all, you cannot possibly know if 5-10 minutes of time is significant to anyone other than yourself and saving time generally does not have significant downsides. If you had the opportunity to save time for a minimum of 3 players, would that alone not be justification enough to learn how to save that time, to play better? If not, why would you, or anyone, willfully choose to waste the time of the 3 other people when the cost on yourself is developing a skill?

Again, why is this selfishness acceptable to you?

---

The default is: do the dungeon, clear it. Time is not a conscious factor, and most people are not consciously thinking they're doing a dungeon in the hopes that they're prolonging the time it takes to do it.

You cannot know if time is significant for other people, that's why it's up to each individual person to think if they have the time to do a dungeon. I just did that earlier this week before going to work, decided I had two hours, which I thought is plenty for a dungeon in WoW and queued in, dungeon took an hour and 10 minutes to kill every boss and I got to work 3 minutes before my shift started.

The cost of developing a skill must be felt for it to matter. If the game allows you to clear content without developing skill, there is no incentive to develop such skill.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

And developing a skill in a video game they're choosing to play on top of that all.

Why anyone would pay $15 a month to spam Cure 2 I will never understand...

---

Maybe they find enjoyment in other parts of the game. I've paid $10 just to change how my character looks, even minor changes, so I can't really judge how people spend their disposable income as long as they're responsible with their money overall.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

The default is: do the dungeon, clear it. Time is not a conscious factor, and most people are not consciously thinking they're doing a dungeon in the hopes that they're prolonging the time it takes to do it.

You cannot know if time is significant for other people, that's why it's up to each individual person to think if they have the time to do a dungeon. I just did that earlier this week before going to work, decided I had two hours, which I thought is plenty for a dungeon in WoW and queued in, dungeon took an hour and 10 minutes to kill every boss and I got to work 3 minutes before my shift started.

---

It is for some people. Sure, most people don't go in with a time expectation, but shorter is generally better than longer. That is why most 70+ dungeons have healers that contribute to damage and tanks that do full pulls. From that, I must reasonably conclude that people would prefer a shorter dungeon experience to a longer one.

But you've still not addressed my question. The act of costing others time, with no unbalanced cost to oneself, can be viewed as selfishness. I can list many real world examples, some of which reference time saves of less for more effort. So, for yet another time, I ask: Why is this selfishness deemed acceptable?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darsien

It is for some people. Sure, most people don't go in with a time expectation, but shorter is generally better than longer. That is why most 70+ dungeons have healers that contribute to damage and tanks that do full pulls. From that, I must reasonably conclude that people would prefer a shorter dungeon experience to a longer one.

---

Or they like using their skills.

Quote:

---

But you've still not addressed my question. The act of costing others time, with no unbalanced cost to oneself, can be viewed as selfishness. I can list many real world examples, some of which reference time saves of less for more effort. So, for yet another time, I ask: Why is this selfishness deemed acceptable?

---

It depends if you think it is selfish. If most people don't go in with a time expectation, then most of the time it's not even an issue. In the cases where it is an issue, as I said earlier, the group will decide what's acceptable.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Actually, yes.

You give your example of being fine with a zero dps healer in a dungeon.

---

I don't give a Qiqirn's rear end about SUBJECTIVE COMMUNITY STANDARDS in a discussion like this.

90% of the time, these standards are completely overblown to the point of pointlessness. Trust me, I've seen enough groups in WoW mandate better gear than the boss in question could drop.

This was a question about objective standards and the only objective standard is set by the game itself. If the boss goes down with a "heal only" healer, than that means he has done enough as far as the game is concerned.

Would we all like him to fill his downtime with DPS? Sure. But these are SUBJECTIVE standards, set by every individual. We do not have the right to enforce them (via vote kick etc) unless the game agrees via design and makes it an OBJECTIVE standard.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MilitaryVet123

Yoshi P explicitly said he did not want to make FF11, which is a well-known time eater. He wanted to make a modern MMO that takes into account the modern work-life balance. I very much do not think this particular MMO is designed to be a time eater. If this was FF11 I would agree with you. But FF14 is not designed to serve hardcore players.

---

Compared to non MMOs, FF-XIV (even though quite casual friendly in design) is still quite taxing in the time department. It's okay, it's supposed to present you a persistent world with sth to do every day. That is virtually impossible to do w/o some form of grindy long-term goals.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darsien

Why do you feel it is acceptable for a healer or tank to steal 5-10 minutes from 3 other players when they can instead be considerate and not do that? What has given them that right and what makes their time so valuable that they may actively take it from the other players in the party?

Why is this selfishness acceptable to you?

---

What gives you the right to stress a player out who just wanted a nice relaxed dungeon run? He may just have come from work and be totally beat etc.
Who are you to decide what's right or not, especially in trivially easy content that does not require savage like performance?
See? I can easily turn that around, hence the subjective nature of these "community standards".

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by AncientCrystal

Truth is bud that Castrum and Red Chocobo aren't terribly difficult once you LEARN THE MECHANICS of these encounters. Just like any other video game.

---

Ah yes, I remember now. He was that dude... heh.
On a more serious note: once you figure out that you need to run into the middle when the X is gone and then go to a clearing where the red puddle is at the time the X reappears, Chocobo has become trivially easy.

I was rather disappointed by the Castrum though. Expected meaner stuff.

Quote:

---

Would we all like him to fill his downtime with DPS? Sure. But these are SUBJECTIVE standards, set by every individual. We do not have the right to enforce them (via vote kick etc) unless the game agrees via design and makes it an OBJECTIVE standard.

---

But already do this. Classes have skills that are there to be used when appropriated. If I queue with my friend as tank and healer and decided to pull wall to wall a DPS not using their AoE rotation, made easier during this last expansion, is not playing at the basic standard set by the game itself.

In short, refusing to use the skills your class has (included cross-class skills) is refusing to play at the standard level set by the game. Using all your kit is just that a healer refusing to do use DPS skills when appropriated is as bad as any DPS refusing to use Feint/Addle.

Anyway, the pointless discussion IMO. Anyone caring enough about this issue should stick to play with in-game friends, randoms will be randoms, particularly in a game where devs are aware of the skills floor problem and are actively trying to fix it by simplifying existing jobs and making the new ones very newbie-friendly.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Driavna

Anyway, the pointless discussion IMO.

---

Indeed it is.
When content is so trivial in nature (e.g. Dungeons/24mans/normal primals), it's borderline idiotic to make a fuss about player performance, let alone kicking people for not measuring up to your made-up standard.

Keep such aspirations to content where it matters and just roll with what you get in the DF tool.
After all, you are rewarded with currency for dragging pretty much anything with 2 feet through the content.

Personally, I stopped getting worked up over lame player performance a long time ago. Just not worth my time unless the content demands it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Granyala

I don't give a Qiqirn's rear end about SUBJECTIVE COMMUNITY STANDARDS in a discussion like this.

90% of the time, these standards are completely overblown to the point of pointlessness. Trust me, I've seen enough groups in WoW mandate better gear than the boss in question could drop.

This was a question about objective standards and the only objective standard is set by the game itself. If the boss goes down with a "heal only" healer, than that means he has done enough as far as the game is concerned.

Would we all like him to fill his downtime with DPS? Sure. But these are SUBJECTIVE standards, set by every individual. We do not have the right to enforce them (via vote kick etc) unless the game agrees via design and makes it an OBJECTIVE standard.

---

You aren't the judge of objective standards any more than SE is.

You're confusing objectivity with the idea of catering to the lowest possible skill level. They are most definitely not the same thing.

I will continue to kick or at the very least not carry bad players who don't take advice. I've been doing it for years, I've had zero negative interactions with GMs. Maybe Yoshida himself agrees with you but functionally the people actually involved in the moderation of the game appear not to.

The game doesn't make any decision. It doesn't say "everyone lived, the healer did enough" like you seem to think. The game just responds to us. If the other players in a group agree that they dont want a freeloader then off that person goes... and trust me, plenty of groups of randoms are perfectly fine with kicking dead weight \o/

I see people like this everywhere. They are terrified of anything different. They demand everyone be exactly like themselves. I have a good analogy but due to its basis, it has no place on these forums. I'll take whatever players the game gives me and work with it. It's very rare that I have any real issues with player performance.

There was one time I can recall in a savage fight I was doing, where performance does indeed matter. One player kept really screwing up the mechs and would spend a good deal of each attempt dead. He admitted his mistakes, apologized, and removed himself from the party on his own, problem solved.

In things like dungeons though, who really cares? As many have said, those don't have that high of a difficulty. There is no reason for the high level play these people always seem to expect. Just because it takes 5 minutes longer than you want doesn't mean it's the end of the world.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Granyala

Indeed it is.
When content is so trivial in nature (e.g. Dungeons/24mans/normal primals), it's borderline idiotic to make a fuss about player performance, let alone kicking people for not measuring up to your made-up standard.

Keep such aspirations to content where it matters and just roll with what you get in the DF tool.
After all, you are rewarded with currency for dragging pretty much anything with 2 feet through the content.

Personally, I stopped getting worked up over lame player performance a long time ago. Just not worth my time unless the content demands it.

---

I see your point, however dungeons/24mans/normal primals compromises most of the content, its trivial in the difficulty aspect but they are important since said content is something everyone will do. Stopped caring is a fair assessment one that fits both your answer to this and the problem people have with others. People stopped caring, or frankly they never gave a damn which is why this "phenomenon" is mostly seen here. Its just a bunch of people who dont give a shit acting like they do, bringing up ridiculous scenarios like the rest are dumb enough to buy it. It is fitting considering this said discussion is a troll attempt , who could have known that those who take the baits take it for a reason im not going to ommit (thanks ToS).
The only thing i will say is SE is at fault for this situation, cause instead of putting a decent tutorial they simplified everything, this just allows for the excuse of "its still too hard" to exist which is why they made easy mode for solo instances. A tutorial would cut all of this crap down. Cause then if someone had done the tutorial and still wanted to freestyle you would immediately know they are intentionally trolling, could tie it in a way that once you finish it you lose the sprout status.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Granyala

Indeed it is.
When content is so trivial in nature (e.g. Dungeons/24mans/normal primals), it's borderline idiotic to make a fuss about player performance, let alone kicking people for not measuring up to your made-up standard.

Keep such aspirations to content where it matters and just roll with what you get in the DF tool.
After all, you are rewarded with currency for dragging pretty much anything with 2 feet through the content.

Personally, I stopped getting worked up over lame player performance a long time ago. Just not worth my time unless the content demands it.

---

Is a social game. If you are in a party and 3 of 4 members don't want to rush they are on their right to kick the other one. The same applies to the other way around.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

The game doesn't make any decision. It doesn't say "everyone lived, the healer did enough" like you seem to think.

---

Heh, someone doesn't know how mathematics work.
You meet the enrage timer despite every DPS playing at their classes limit?
-> The game just told you that the healer needs to DPS.

You kill the boss despite the healer not DPSing and everyone only having appropriate gear?
-> The game clearly has not been tuned with healer DPS in mind, ergo it is unnecessary to defeat the content.

You can wiggle around as much as you want, the undeniable fact is you have 2 standards:
1. Objective: what the game demands, mathematically, in order for the players to win.
2. Subjective: more commonly known as "community set standards" which is usually way above what the game actually demands in terms of player engagement.

If the game lets people defeat content with the healer being semi AFK due to not DPSing (since there is not much healing required), I wouldn't blame that on the lazy player. I would argue that the content is tuned to lax.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Driavna

Is a social game. If you are in a party and 3 of 4 members don't want to rush they are on their right to kick the other one. The same applies to the other way around.

---

Yup, some people just need to set arbitrary standards in order to feel better about themselves in a video game.

If I have such clear demands for my group, I would not use the DF tool. It is not the fault of the randomly assigned player that he does not live up to your imaginary standard.
IMHO, kicking such a player for no other reason (no wipes, impolite behavior etc) is what I would call (and I hate that term) toxic elitism.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HeulGDarian

I see your point, however dungeons/24mans/normal primals compromises most of the content, its trivial in the difficulty aspect but they are important since said content is something everyone will do. Stopped caring is a fair assessment one that fits both your answer to this and the problem people have with others.

---

Do not presume to judge me. You will fail.
I play every group content as if it was a savage raid: 100% attention and the best performance I am able to give.
To me, it's a matter of politeness to give it my all, when our collective butts are on the line.

Only exception: derp runs among friends.

Which is worse? Losing a couple of minutes in a dungeon run and being mad about it or losing hours on forums complaining about it?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Novae

losing hours on forums complaining about it?

---

Honestly, that seems to be the OP's full-time job...

I’ve always thought the more extreme/savage content were additional things to appeal to people that like that (as is crafting, big fishing, pvp etc).

The core focus of this game was clearly casual although the dungeon mechanics have picked up a lot more in recent times as a result of the players skill increasing - most dungeons/duty’s get cleared fine.

I don’t think we’ll see it get much harder than this outside of savage/extreme stuff.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Granyala

snip

---

i wasnt trying to judge you, i took aform from you sayin not caring about others performance to make a general statement.......

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MilitaryVet123

Well, do you think "git gud" is genuine and polite feedback? I appreciate tips and helpful advice. But I do not appreciate being told to "git gud". In fact in this very thread three people have responded with "git gud" without offering any other advice.

---

"git gud" is just a slang for "get good" which means they are rooting for your improvement. It may not be helpful but it is a positive message.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darsien

It is for some people. Sure, most people don't go in with a time expectation, but shorter is generally better than longer. That is why most 70+ dungeons have healers that contribute to damage and tanks that do full pulls. From that, I must reasonably conclude that people would prefer a shorter dungeon experience to a longer one.

But you've still not addressed my question. The act of costing others time, with no unbalanced cost to oneself, can be viewed as selfishness. I can list many real world examples, some of which reference time saves of less for more effort. So, for yet another time, I ask: Why is this selfishness deemed acceptable?

---

It boils down to whether you'd rather have a hard short day or an easier longer day. Factor in that not everyone will chose the same answer to that and you have the crux of the situation.

In the end, the OP's opening statement is correct. FF14 is not really tailored for the hardcore community. It makes allowances for them, but I agree that FF14 is largely based on casual/midcore play. However that does not excuse underperforming in hardcore/midcore instances which dungeons are not, imo. And especially roulette or leveling situations. Min-maxing or optimizing dungeons is just... a joke really. Especially leveling situations where your full range of skills aren't even available. 98% of the time, the tank that pulls the entire first room in Aurum Vale causes a wipe. Especially if they filled the party with Duty Finder and not people they know the skillsets of.

Expecting optimized runs with randomly qued individuals is just... not feasible. It happens sometimes and when it does it's wonderful, but joining a matched group that you know will bring unknown quantifiers then be unwilling to adjust or work around those new variables is well.. selfish also.

When people are really bad it shows, when people are only less good than you it's not as obvious and certainly more forgivable. An easy run isn't always the fast and hard run. It's when everyone agrees to get through it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by GomJabbar

Honestly, that seems to be the OP's full-time job...

---

That is ironic considering half the forums seem to complain about me and others not being good at a video game.

I'll just add in a few quick comments...

First off, there is a valid point in saying that the game is not intended to appeal to hardcore players only; it's quite evident when you start looking into stuff like the production values for the game. Where is the budget going to? The MSQ, which pretty much is the only piece of content in the game to have voice-acting (some sound bytes in encounters not withstanding). It's not Extreme, Savage, or Ultimate (all of which are spin-offs of other content), but the one thing that everyone does.

Second, the concern here isn't so much that hardcore content exists. It's about the expectations of the hardcore playerbase being applied to casual players in casual content. I've seen this slow deterioration before with WoW, and if it isn't kept in check, it can become a major detriment to the community of the game; everyone just becomes unpleasant as more and more people start demanding optimization and efficiency over having a good time here and now. Just because things can be optimized, it doesn't mean it MUST be optimized... or even should be for that matter. So long as you're clearing the content, then you're doing fine. Luckily, this seems to be the perspective shared by the developers.

And lastly... the hardcore playerbase needs to learn how to make their own challenges. The game can be easy at times, but quite often the best approach to adding in a challenge is not demand the game to give it to you but to create your own within the game's rules (and preferably without dragging in those who aren't interested in such things). There's a myriad of examples over the years across many genres: low level runs, no gear / naked runs (glamour gear only runs could work here), speed runs, and so on. Though the one thing to keep in mind is that you shouldn't expect the optimized (often a speedrun) from everyone without the explicit consent of the whole group; it's rather annoying when people are expecting that when not everyone is onboard with it, at least one person will be having a bad time and misery loves company.

---

Far too often when it comes to online games, players start to focus more on being efficient than having a good time. There's some value in that, true... but when it starts to become an expectation from everyone, it very quickly becomes a problem. Sometimes that means lowering your expectations and being helpful instead of constantly pushing people to up their performance.

You're unhappy, and you're making them unhappy too; no one is going to come out of such a run being anything other than miserable. So rather than be a jerk about it... stop worrying so much about it not being perfect and just enjoy something when it's good enough.

Troll post or not, Ima jump in cause why not....

This is why I think the 'casual' community is more toxic than players that do hardcore content. Just because we do savage raids / ultimate's, we're instantly flagged as toxic and assholes. For the record, I've had some of the best and most helpful in-game experiences with progress-parties in PF for savage content, with people that are flagged as 'toxic'. Are there toxic and elitist players in hardcore content? Sure, but not everyone is toxic.

There's also a fundamental flaw in your point, expecting you to play the game the way it's supposed to is not "expecting hardcore-level gameplay" from you. Skills combo with each other in certain ways because the game is designed that way, and if you're not doing you're doing it wrong.

Are you free to go into content as a WHM and just heal, and never cast Glare/Dia/Assize? Of course, but you're only using half of the class. It's not about 'optimization', it's about using your entire kit. That's like playing chess, but you're only using the pawns, and refuse to use any other piece.

Why is it toxic that I want players to use their classes the way they're meant to, but it's not toxic when a player in my party decides to waste my time and make a run 10+ mins longer than it should be?

I agree with the fact that this game is mostly casual, but if you're free to play the game the most laidback way you possibly can, then others are free to call you out / kick you when you're dragging them down.

Your point about reaction times is completely off-topic too, this game isn't about reaction times, it's about knowing mechanics and getting used to fights.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Cerscent

Just because we do savage raids / ultimate's, we're instantly flagged as toxic and assholes.

---

People who actually think like that (and not just using shorthand labels in discussions) are not representative of any meaningful segment of the "casual" community and discussions around this topic should not be framed to address that kind of crowd. It can easily lead to strawman arguments.

Quote:

---

This is why I think the 'casual' community is more toxic than players that do hardcore content. ... Are there toxic and elitist players in hardcore content? Sure, but not everyone is toxic.

---

And that's why it's irrelevant to say that one part of the community is more toxic than the other because your experiences may vary with the people you meet and which side of the fence you stand.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raelsar

Far too often when it comes to online games, players start to focus more on being efficient than having a good time. There's some value in that, true... but when it starts to become an expectation from everyone, it very quickly becomes a problem.

---

Well, lets be fair about one thing: If a developer empathizes running content ad nauseum for [reward] and new content is sparse, people will get sick of it and they will value efficiency above all else. MMO are notorious for that but it really applies to any game that has meaningless busywork (a.k.a. grind) to do in order to tackle the fun stuff.

The more SE makes us run the same content over and over, the more pronounced this behavior will get. Very few people are impatient in content that is brand new. Skip ahead 3 months and the picture isn't nearly as forgiving.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Granyala

The more SE makes us run the same content over and over, the more pronounced this behavior will get. Very few people are impatient in content that is brand new. Skip ahead 3 months and the picture isn't nearly as forgiving.

---

Yeah, it's unfortunate. To me, what makes it bearable is the timegating, so I'm not actually grinding nonstop and only doing a certain amount each day. Also, I view the random players/instances as potentials to make the run different each time, so I'm never that bored, though it depends on how my day had gone at work or elsewhere IRL.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Granyala

What gives you the right to stress a player out who just wanted a nice relaxed dungeon run? He may just have come from work and be totally beat etc.
Who are you to decide what's right or not, especially in trivially easy content that does not require savage like performance?
See? I can easily turn that around, hence the subjective nature of these "community standards".

---

This is inherently incorrect. Because if people have invested a little time in reading about a rotation and practicing it against a dummy 5-10 min every time they play, eventually it will be muscle memory to just do. They can relax and perform at a decent level.

I don't get where this came up but I think all the casual players assume the raiders want people to play at the same level as them. Never in my time playing this game which is upcoming to 4 years have I seen anyone wanting a casual to play at a high level. Never. Not once. You make a few mistakes in your rotation in dungeons? No one is actually going to care. Its the fundamentals. You think anyone is deserving of a Samurai who literally presses 1-3 buttons on repeat the whole dungeon?

In fact, when I play white mage, I find it actually much harder to spam cure I on someone instead of using a regen and an occassional single target lily, pressing 1 button, holy, and looking at whatever video I want to watch.

Tanxiety or whatever people refer it to. Exists sure, but why bring your unexperienced self into the dungeon and waste peoples time because you are too anxious to play up to what is I believe standard now. I rarely see a tank single pull nowadays. Use your friends to help you get rid of your tanxiety, not randoms.

What people do in Savage and optimizing, I can guarantee you it goes way way way way more in depth than what is expected in Dungeons. Telling the raiding community that you don't want to be savage level isn't the right excuse because you are oblivious of what a lot of savage players actually do.

And people who have come back beaten from work? I'm gonna say that is tough. There are people who do the same and come to dungeons and perform up to standard, I know I do. In fact, I come back from 10+ hr shifts of standing all day long, ready to throw myself on the bed, but I come in and play up to standard in ultimate raids. You can say that well I can handle it unlike some others, but at that point, should they even try to unwind in FFXIV dungeons if people are asking for an average requirement? If you want to perform below what is average of the entire playerbase, you should find people to unwind with or don't dictate other peoples pace because of your tiredness. That is what is meant by being selfish.

I honestly feel that XIV has the right amount of casual x hardcore content. I am a casual myself, but I never felt the necessity of getting into the hardcore pve activities because the rest already feels very fulfilling.

The good thing that XIV brings is that the casual content is pretty numerous. There are a ton of activities to take part of as a casual player... And that doesn't mean content that expires fast. There are a lot of grinds that are easy, but just take time. Housing is also a huge time sink.

My only gripe with the current hardcore content (Memoria Misera) is that the dyeable job sets from Shadowbringers are locked behind many completions of that fight... While not impossible for me to take part of, doing Extremes is def. not my cup of tea.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raikai

I honestly feel that XIV has the right amount of casual x hardcore content. I am a casual myself, but I never felt the necessity of getting into the hardcore pve activities because the rest already feels very fulfilling.

The good thing that XIV brings is that the casual content is pretty numerous. There are a ton of activities to take part of as a casual player... And that doesn't mean content that expires fast. There are a lot of grinds that are easy, but just take time. Housing is also a huge time sink.

My only gripe with the current hardcore content (Memoria Misera) is that the dyeable job sets from Shadowbringers are locked behind many completions of that fight... While not impossible for me to take part of, doing Extremes is def. not my cup of tea.

---

I'm going to ask as politely as I can and it is up for discussion.

If you do not do the hardcore content, how can you dictate the amount of hardcore content that is in the game? There are a lot of people who want more than what we got. Not a lot more, but we can definitely use more.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aCrowe

This is inherently incorrect.

---

Nope it is not. Muscle memory will not work as a healer, you need to adapt to the situation. Granted in today's dungeon w/o Cleric Stance, there isn'T much to adapt to and also no risk by going into DPS mode.

Do keep in mind that I made an academic argument. My main point is that community standards are subjective and flexible. Every player has differing ones.
It is indeed rare that a tank pulls single groups or that a healer does not DPS at all. So rare that I almost never encounter it anymore.

DPS players having crappy output happens all the time but it's a no-no to say anything because apparently holding DPS accountable is the work of Satan in this game. *chuckles* Hilarious when these "protected" DPS players then turn around and give any healer/tank flak for making a mistake.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Raikai

My only gripe with the current hardcore content (Memoria Misera) is that the dyeable job sets from Shadowbringers are locked behind many completions of that fight... While not impossible for me to take part of, doing Extremes is def. not my cup of tea.

---

Yeah... that was a lame design decision. Absolutely. I still want the dyable DNC gear but since I retired from raiding I can't be arsed to wipe around with randoms and subject myself to all the associated drama. I did go in with friends once and we got the boss down to like 5%. I would not rate it's difficulty as "hardcore".
Definitely a lot easier than any savage I have done.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by aCrowe

why bring your unexperienced self into the dungeon and waste peoples time because you are too anxious to play up to what is I believe standard now.

---

Because dungeon is designed to be clearable by first timers, often even without needing to wipe. If you don't want to deal with inexperienced people, you should find people with experience to play with and don't dictate that random players have to be experienced in order to queue.

I see no one has answered my question of "why is this selfishness acceptable?" Either by ignorance or fear of it, the answer has not been given. As I've grown bored of reading the same responses given again and again, I'll answer the question for those of you who have failed to do so. But first, we need to identify what the selfishness is in this case. It is very simple.

Entitlement.

Players in FFXIV tend to heavily gravitate towards the mentality of "I payed for the base game, I pay a monthly subscription, I deserve everything in the game." To an extent, I believe this is true. However, this general thought has developed and evolved. It is now "I payed... I deserve everything without effort." Of course, the people who subscribe to this evolution in selfishness will word it differently, more kindly. But these players feel that all content is theirs. They do not care about putting in an appropriate amount of effort. The do not care about any form of challenge or test of skill. I would also go so far as to say they fail to remember that the people they play with are people and not NPCs. Ever have a game criticize how you play it? Perhaps now you may understand how adults can react to advise so extremely poorly.

Within this entitlement, players do not feel the need to research, to improve. This is why parsers threaten them so. A demonstrable metric that shows them as not contributing, as providing evidence to support the claim of "lazy, improper play" and "failure to contribute" within the team environment that is most of FFXIV's interactable content? No, no. We cannot have that. But then this also explains clearly why some players feel the need to steal the time of others with their inconsiderate, lazy actions. They shall get their reward. They shall get it with time. It's just RNG how fast the run goes, right? Those 3, 7, or 23 other characters are just randomly generated. There's no control over the speed and effort needed, so why bother? The reward comes eventually. What is a few extra minutes? What is the effort of others to make up for one's personal failure? No one pays MY sub but me, so I should get the content in the way I want, damn all others.

The perfect example of this in action, curtesy of the Memoria Misera trial. Who else remembers the thread? I read it. Maybe participated against my better judgement. But remember the backlash? Players OFFENDED that they DARE be asked to do an EXTREME trial for their glamour. Who has time to learn to do it? To learn to play the game well enough to succeed? Pay no mind to their 200+ day /playtime. When met with challenge, the playerbase threw up their hands and complained instead of rising to it. They don't get their shiny things for free. I thank a few posters here for reminding me.

By free, I of course mean "at the expense of both the time and gameplay experiences of all others around them." Nothing is free. Because that's the entire deal, is it not? Entitled players don't see the effort others need to put in to make up for their actions. They just see the "Duty Complete" reward and feel they did their fair share. They succeeded. When the reality is their success was because of the efforts of others and not fully themselves. You'd think everyone would be sympathetic towards not doing this sort of thing because people who play FFXIV typically have a job to cover the sub expense, meaning that they would all have encountered one or more people who skated by, got an equal share with much less effort. A pity. Because they react the same way when they are asked to put in their share: with none whatsoever, with anger, and, sometimes, with violence.



So, the answer to the question is simple: People accept the selfishness because to refute it would be to admit to themselves that they are entitled and are harming others' gameplay experiences for their own personal gain. They'd rather defend their negative actions, often aggressively, than possibly admit they are wrong. It is why advise, no matter how kindly presented or benign, is met with poor reactions by many. It's why many feel the constant need to defend these actions with extreme examples, some of which can be found in this thread itself.

People would rather cause some degree of negativity and harm than accept that their actions are causing the harm and may be wrong. They would rather have apathy than empathy. The former is just easier. It exists outside of the game, too, so it's not "just a game" thing.

That is why the selfishness is acceptable to some. It is unacceptable to me and should be unacceptable to anyone who gives it the smallest bit of thought.



In FFXIV, we are all paired with random players. This is known and obvious. This means we all must make a choice: be a good random, via research of their role, job, and sometimes the content, or be a bad random. Asking others to "go back to x" or "make your own party" is just a red herring. A deflection. A deflection by those who refuse to accept that this is a choice they make, consciously or otherwise.



Food for thought, of course.

I look forward to the responses. If they are of the quality that I've already received, though, please do not feel offended when I don't address them. A few things to save some of you a bit of time:

Never played WoW, so I cannot go back.
I don't talk in dungeons because of the sheer aggression.
I'm behind an alt because my FC log book doesn't need additional comments.
Yes, I do put considerable thought into a video game. FFXIV is much more complex than stamp collecting, or other hobbies, so more effort is generally needed. It's called passion. Feel free to try it sometime.
Direct personal attacks mean I get to disregard your post and/or report it, so feel free.
You're allowed to disagree, but at least provide detail.
If this post upset you personally, don't waste a post venting towards me because I don't care. Instead, get a bit introspective and see if you need to make some changes.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Darsien

I see no one has answered my question of "why is this selfishness acceptable?"

---

It has been answered: It is acceptable because it is irrelevant to the point of not becoming an issue for some.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

It has been answered: It is acceptable because it is irrelevant to the point of not becoming an issue for some.

---

Wow, way to go literally not addressing the question.

It isn't acceptable for many people and is therefore an issue.

Try again.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

Wow, way to go literally not addressing the question.

It isn't acceptable for many people and is therefore an issue.

Try again.

---

Uh, no, if it is not acceptable to you, then you're not the one being asked the question.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by linayar

Uh, no, if it is not acceptable to you, then you're not the one being asked the question.

---

And if it is acceptable to you then why don't you explain why you believe it's fine to waste other people's time? You've given a non-answer.

It is selfish and entitled to do so, why aren't you bothered by that?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Veis_Alveare

And if it is acceptable to you then why don't you explain why you believe it's fine to waste other people's time? You've given a non-answer.

It is selfish and entitled to do so, why aren't you bothered by that?

---

It is fine because it's irrelevant is a non-answer? So you think people have to care about this "issue" and can't be neutral about it?

When I queue into a duty, I don't set time expectation, so I don't consider it wasting time to not beat a dungeon as fast as possible.

That's why I will never like Mythic+ system that would put a timer on a run.