Housing Ownership Restrictions

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

You've got a website, why aren't you pumping the data into the website's database, and going from there?

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachmen...40/unknown.png

Are you volunteering to shoulder project cost?

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

And what happens if the FC that likes being on somewhere like Cactuar wants to find a home?

I'm not the one who's attacking other players here, I'm looking for a way to better optimize housing distribution so that more can enjoy it because housing is such a scarce resource.

And if you perceive that to be an attack on you (or your playstyle), then that's a problem that exist solely in your head.

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1. If an FC wants to find a house on Cactuar, then they, as an FC. Should put in the time and effort to get one. Yes, it's going to be hard and yes, it's going to be frustrating. But to that end, if you TRULY want an FC house (or a house in general) then you need to work for it, as it won't just be handed to you for free. Keep in mind that several other people also want a personal house / FC house and are going to be vying for the same plot you are. The housing system as a whole certainly could do with an upgrade or a revamp, but pointing your aggression to other players who decide to use empty plots that nobody has shown interest in obtaining is the wrong way to do it. They aren't the problem, nor will calling them out change that.

2. You consistently trying to tell others that the system needs to be fixed by punishing house-hoarders can indeed be perceived as an attack, as you are trying to start a witch-hunt on 0.1% of the playerbase that have the ability to hoard houses, yet your justifications for trying to start said witch-hunts are baseless at best. I can regale you with the first few weeks (up to a month) of me finally getting a private house, in one of the most undesirable locations in the goblet and paint you a nice picture about this community and its intentions.

After camping in the goblet for upwards of 3 hours or so (it was like.. 5AM GMT, so pretty damn early in the morning for US players) and I was with five or six other players, all vying for the same placard. Yet when I got "Plot Purchased" on my screen, only one of those players congratulated me for being a new house owner, rather than a relocator. The other five? Berate me with "Great, another bot got the plot" or demanding I relinquish because THEY want the plot more than I do. Followed by several weeks of death threats, harassment and actual griefing outside of my house. It only stopped once I got the GMs involved.

This community doesn't care about being nice, nor does it care about "feelings". If I have what you want, then I can easily expect you to foam at the mouth and try to paint a target on my back to try and get me to relinquish it, so you can get the chance, rather than try again. Something that only the housing community seems to do. As i've said before, savage/ultimate raiding teams don't need to put up with this stuff, nor do crafter/gatherers or ANY other type of player, for that fact. It's only when it comes to a virtual chunk of space in a video game that people take off their masks and show their true selves.

They aren't hurting anyone with what they're doing. They are simply enjoying the game in a different way to you. Don't demonize and vilify them, when plenty of the hoarders (the one on mateus especially) are nice people, once you talk to them. Coming late to the party doesn't give you the right to complain that all the food is gone. You knowingly came late.

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Originally Posted by Kenky

1. If an FC wants to find a house on Cactuar, then they, as an FC. Should put in the time and effort to get one. Yes, it's going to be hard and yes, it's going to be frustrating. But to that end, if you TRULY want an FC house (or a house in general) then you need to work for it, as it won't just be handed to you for free. Keep in mind that several other people also want a personal house / FC house and are going to be vying for the same plot you are. The housing system as a whole certainly could do with an upgrade or a revamp, but pointing your aggression to other players who decide to use empty plots that nobody has shown interest in obtaining is the wrong way to do it. They aren't the problem, nor will calling them out change that.

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Thank you Captain Obvious.....

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Originally Posted by Kenky

2. You consistently trying to tell others that the system needs to be fixed by punishing house-hoarders can indeed be perceived as an attack, as you are trying to start a witch-hunt on 0.1% of the playerbase that have the ability to hoard houses, yet your justifications for trying to start said witch-hunts are baseless at best.

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Consistently?

**Looks at post history**

If I was doing this consistently, where are these multitudes of threads started on the subject? Shouldn't there (oh, I don't know) be more than a thread per year from me on the subject?

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

And what happens if the FC that likes being on somewhere like Cactuar wants to find a home?



I'm not the one who's attacking other players here, I'm looking for a way to better optimize housing distribution so that more can enjoy it because housing is such a scarce resource.

And if you perceive that to be an attack on you (or your playstyle), then that's a problem that exist solely in your head.



I haven't put in the time to work with XIVAPI to pull the data and make sure it's valid. Most of what I was looking into involved using a packet sniffer to pull the data from the ingame traffic and storing it as it's being sent from the server to the client in plain text so I'd get the addresses and FC tags - which means I can do a focused Lodestone pull via XIVAPI for the FC tag on that world and verify it with the address.

And honestly, I got sidetracked into other projects so that got put onto the backburner. Speaking frankly, no amount of data I can provide, or arguments I will make will ever be sufficient for those who are abusing the current system because they will always see themselves in the right and most of them (like yourself) cannot be reasoned with because they only think that people like myself are incompetent simpletons that are doing this out of jealousy. When you're fighting that perpetual uphill battle... why waste the effort?



You've got a website, why aren't you pumping the data into the website's database, and going from there?

While a spreadsheet is a great tool for analysis (at least as far as Excel is concerned - the Google Spreadsheet is a POS), a spreadsheet is a horrible way to store data, much less make it accessible to anything else.

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I don't understand what is the point of you ranting here on an idea that will not sold; to both community and SE.
They will not touch grandfathered houses (I have to bold for you)
They have announced the plan of new housing plots then just get ready and combat the login server like every one of us did in the past when we try to get our first house plot.
Your little crusade on the anti-grandfathered house will never sold and it doesn't increase your chance of obtain a plot too.
All the issue in regard to the housing is the basic supply vs demand.

No sane gaming company will touch the asset that players obtain through legit mean.
Bathesda was only the idiot that done that in Fallout 76 and how they end up with?

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

All the issue in regard to the housing is the basic supply vs demand.

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And you can increase the supply by making sure the existing one is well utilized (by having the housing distribution follow the restrictions that were in place in 4.2 and 4.3), and adding more. If you don't do the former, all doing the latter does is ensure the current cluster continues.

This is like economics 101 stuff...

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

No sane gaming company will touch the asset that players obtain through legit mean.
Bathesda was only the idiot that done that in Fallout 76 and how they end up with?

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SE can change any of the policies around FFXIV whenever they want to. Don't assume anything is set in stone...

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Thank you Captain Obvious.....



Consistently?

**Looks at post history**

If I was doing this consistently, where are these multitudes of threads started on the subject? Shouldn't there (oh, I don't know) be more than a thread per year from me on the subject?

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Good to know this time you aren't keeping up the facade.

And yes, consistently. I never specified you needed to be the thread creator. Only that you post in those threads, which you do. I also never specified a time-frame, so you immediately assuming a year-long period is silly. But in any case, back to the topic.

Yes, SE can change any of their policies and decide to enforce said new policies, yet at the same time, I doubt SE is the type of company to take all the players who have been following the rules before and punish them, because SE decided on a whim that the rules need to change and thus, they are now breaking the new terms. Anything that happens in Ruleset 1 cannot be held accountable for actions done that comply with Ruleset 1. Not to mention There are no rules being broken at present. so you need to drop that real quick.

As for "increase the supply". It's been said time and time again that simply adding more supply A) won't fix the issue, it'll only delay it and B) act like delayed gasoline on a fire. It's not as simple as simply flicking a switch and all is daijobu. Economics 101 may teach you to make sure you have enough supply to meet demands, but it also teaches you about not having too much supply that the value tanks. Going back from when Housing first came out, there was no issues. Infact, there were plenty of wards that never got touched, or only had an owner for a few months. Then Stormblood came out, pulling an entire new wave of players that flooded the market.

SE couldn't (nor could any company) forsee a sudden surge and, with things they are and housing being an optional system with no real payout (Excluding FC-workshop stuff, but again, FCs own barely 20% of housing plots) it's going to be on the back-burner, since most people play FFXIV for the actual gameplay. The dungeons, raids, crafting, etc.

Be glad something is happening at all, when SE could well within their right just shrug and look the other way, since their main focus is the story. SE could use to update the system, but SE can't really be held accountable when player obsession is the bigger issue here.

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Originally Posted by Kenky

Good to know this time you aren't keeping up the facade.

And yes, consistently. I never specified you needed to be the thread creator. Only that you post in those threads, which you do. I also never specified a time-frame, so you immediately assuming a year-long period is silly. But in any case, back to the topic.

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Yeah no. You are making false claims to paint me as the "bad guy" so you can feel justified in your position and then go off on some completely unrelated tangent. If you're going to use this dishonest tactic, at least have the temerity to be honest about it.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Yeah no. You are making false claims to paint me as the "bad guy" so you can feel justified in your position and then go off on some completely unrelated tangent. If you're going to use this dishonest tactic, at least have the temerity to be honest about it.

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So the last few threads that you have posted in, actively stating that house-hoarders are horrible people and that they should be punished for what they do (even going so far as to claim they're selfish and being selfish is bad, mind. Which is hillarious in its own right) are not you consistently trying to start something?

Boy, sure fooled me.

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Originally Posted by Kenky

So the last few threads that you have posted in, actively stating that house-hoarders are horrible people and that they should be punished for what they do (even going so far as to claim they're selfish and being selfish is bad, mind. Which is hillarious in its own right) are not you consistently trying to start something?

Boy, sure fooled me.

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Hey, I wasn't the one here coming for a fight, merely suggesting that SE should stick to the restrictions laid out in https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes.../housing_land/ , and apply them retroactively. I'm also agreeable with giving players enough time to spin up additional accounts so that they can keep their holdings if they wish, or cash out without any loss if they don't want to. That means that SE should give players time to let go of the extra personal houses as those restrictions indicate that each account should only have one personal account per house.

While not wanting to discuss the FC side of it, I also strongly desire for SE to add code for something akin to an AFK timer on houses should the FC drop below the 4 character minimum, but do it in such a way that it's not easily abusable and incentivizes FC owners to keep at least four characters in their FC (whether it's their own alts or from a different service account, I don't care which). Additionally, I would like to amend the above restrictions so that the FC house is bound to the FC itself and does not check any of the accounts associated with the FC, which means that one account can support up to three houses by itself, which is a 50% improvement over the housing limit that the restrictions list.

Those two changes would likely free up additional housing as housing is a very scarce resource (especially on the populated servers), and I honestly doubt there will ever be a point where ward housing is going to be able to satiate the needs of the community. Hoarding housing, on the other hand, only makes the entire housing situation worse because it's causing distribution issues.

And again, that's a perfectly rational take trying to solve a problem, and not one that's... how did you put it.... "trying to start something".

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Hey, I wasn't the one here coming for a fight, merely suggesting that SE should stick to the restrictions laid out in https://na.finalfantasyxiv.com/lodes.../housing_land/ , and apply them retroactively.

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They're definitely sticking to them, in that the restriction is 1 personal house per account for the past 2 years, and will be for the remainder of the game's runtime. They already decided not to apply them retroactively, and they are extremely unlikely to go back on that decision. Your suggestion is made lacking the data that SE has regarding how many houses are owned by alt characters. It would not make a difference. SE will not do it.

I used the example earlier that the likelihood is about the same as SE decided to be like WoW or Everquest: 1 character = 1 combat class. "Log off as the class you want to keep, all other DoW and DoM classes will be deleted from your characters records. If you want to play another role, level to 80 on a new character. Sorry for the inconvenience." Can you see that happening to us? All the hours we spent leveling alts? It's 100% not going to happen, exactly like your suggestion. The handful of people who own alt houses are not the ones creating a housing crisis.

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Originally Posted by Catstab

They're definitely sticking to them, in that the restriction is 1 personal house per account for the past 2 years, and will be for the remainder of the game's runtime. They already decided not to apply them retroactively, and they are extremely unlikely to go back on that decision.

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If the housing crisis comes to a head in Japan (like it has on the NA servers), then it may.

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Originally Posted by Catstab

Your suggestion is made lacking the data that SE has regarding how many houses are owned by alt characters. It would not make a difference. SE will not do it.

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As is any post about SE as do not have their data, nor have we any idea of how static their policies truly are.

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Originally Posted by Catstab

I used the example earlier that the likelihood is about the same as SE decided to be like WoW or Everquest: 1 character = 1 combat class. "Log off as the class you want to keep, all other DoW and DoM classes will be deleted from your characters records. If you want to play another role, level to 80 on a new character. Sorry for the inconvenience." Can you see that happening to us? All the hours we spent leveling alts? It's 100% not going to happen, exactly like your suggestion.

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That's a rather hyperbolic red herring.

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Originally Posted by Catstab

The handful of people who own alt houses are not the ones creating a housing crisis.

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While that is true, they are also making a bad situation worse by artificially lessening the supply of houses.

The issue there, Almagnus is.. Well. It's incredibly unlikely to happen in Japan. Purely because of the society they are a part of.

In japan, they don't want to be a burden to each other. They put major emphasis on family and sticking to said family. So it would take quite a societal shift for this issue to occur in Japan to the point of needing actual action.

(This could be entirely wrong and if that is so, I apologize. It's what I have found out from interacting with japanese families in the past.)

Compared to the materialistic obsession that the "western world" has is definitely an issue, but that's something that we shouldn't really get in to, due to Controversy, politics and that will always start fights. Better not to.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

That's a rather hyperbolic red herring.

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It's really not.

Your suggestion is to take away earned in-game rewards, destroying hours of player effort for little to no reward. You admitted that the root of the problem isn't alt houses, as if it wasn't obvious. We've already talked about the math. 20,220 houses too few is not going to be helped at all based on removing however many of the ~3780 player houses are alt owned. Even if half of all personal houses were owned by alts (which they aren't) we would gain about 1,890 personals, reducing homelessness by 9%. If applying the change retroactively made sense, it would have already been done. But applying it retroactively hurts players, and solves nothing.

Having the change applied in the future prevents alts from getting in the way of mains when the new wards come about. The new wards are the solution, not alienating a small group of loyal players in order to free up a couple tiny corners of existing wards. If house hoarding is truly a concern of yours, you really need to be petitioning for 8 FCs per account to be lessened. That's the one that's still perfectly possible, with no end in sight.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Thank you Captain Obvious.....

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What is obvious is your distain for those who have grandfathered housing. What is also pretty obvious is that SE made the decision to grandfather them and they aren't going to change their mind in-spite of the resentful people like you who think their threads here will make them change their mind.

You can ask that's fine but I also suggest you don't hold your breath.

And I might also add that alts still can't share a house with their main but that house can be shared with friends. Most with multiple homes would have been content to share a house and they couldn't and still can't. What they could do was buy houses for their alts and some took the liberty of doing just that.

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Originally Posted by Catstab

If house hoarding is truly a concern of yours, you really need to be petitioning for 8 FCs per account to be lessened. That's the one that's still perfectly possible, with no end in sight.

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What would help but not eliminate this is the reducing of the FC exclusivity by giving FC's no more that a week to buy a house when new wards release before private owners can access those houses for purchase. A week for an existing FC is already too long in my opinion. If I had my way I'd give them no more that 2 days.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

And I might also add that alts still can't share a house with their main but that house can be shared with friends. Most with multiple homes would have been content to share a house and they couldn't and still can't. What they could do was buy houses for their alts and some took the liberty of doing just that.

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I'm a firm believer that a good way to combat a certain type of activity is to reduce the incentive to engage in said activity.

Certainly allowing all characters in the same server and account to have access to the same private home would reduce the incentive to have multiple houses. Some may even let go of the houses that are not their favourite. Anyone with a larger house like a medium or a mansion could even designate sections to each of their characters, and it could lead to some really nice and interesting decor.

Any private home owner can benefit from a feature like this. SE did express interest in introducing it so I think it's only a matter of time until it comes to the game.

SE could even take it a step further and allow the alts of tenants have access to the same house, which would be beneficial to those who play with multiple accounts.

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Originally Posted by Kenky

The issue there, Almagnus is.. Well. It's incredibly unlikely to happen in Japan. Purely because of the society they are a part of.

In japan, they don't want to be a burden to each other. They put major emphasis on family and sticking to said family. So it would take quite a societal shift for this issue to occur in Japan to the point of needing actual action.

(This could be entirely wrong and if that is so, I apologize. It's what I have found out from interacting with japanese families in the past.)

Compared to the materialistic obsession that the "western world" has is definitely an issue, but that's something that we shouldn't really get in to, due to Controversy, politics and that will always start fights. Better not to.

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It's almost like the Japanese aren't being selfish about the matter....

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Originally Posted by Catstab

Your suggestion is to take away earned in-game rewards, destroying hours of player effort for little to no reward.

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Do you realize how many hours members of my FC spent trying to relo to Kurogane, including trying to relo the FC house from Mist to Kurogane only to have nothing?

I imagine they're not alone, and there are probably others in the same boat as well.

Are you suggesting they should be compensated for their efforts?

Besides, the house itself is not a reward. You complete no quests to get it, you just walk over to the placard and pay for it. In other words, it's an item. Yes, you can do a lot with it, but at the end of the day, it's no different to your character than your chocobo.

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Originally Posted by Catstab

You admitted that the root of the problem isn't alt houses, as if it wasn't obvious.

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So then please explain why it's acceptable to have more than one personal house per service account. And no, "because they were grandfathered in" is not a valid reason here.

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Originally Posted by Catstab

We've already talked about the math. 20,220 houses too few is not going to be helped at all based on removing however many of the ~3780 player houses are alt owned. Even if half of all personal houses were owned by alts (which they aren't) we would gain about 1,890 personals, reducing homelessness by 9%.

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So... why not increase the number of players able to participate?

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Originally Posted by Catstab

Having the change applied in the future prevents alts from getting in the way of mains when the new wards come about. The new wards are the solution, not alienating a small group of loyal players in order to free up a couple tiny corners of existing wards.

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You're acting like I'm not in favor of doing both....

And even if we keep adding wards, I doubt that there's enough server capacity to generate the extra wards to match demand, so I see the only real solution here as both adding more wards and also making sure the wards are utilized by as many service accounts as possible.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

And I might also add that alts still can't share a house with their main but that house can be shared with friends.

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And that's something SE needs to change.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

What would help but not eliminate this is the reducing of the FC exclusivity by giving FC's no more that a week to buy a house when new wards release before private owners can access those houses for purchase. A week for an existing FC is already too long in my opinion. If I had my way I'd give them no more that 2 days.

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No, the problem is the shell FCs, not the exclusivity. There are plenty of FCs that want a house... but there's also plenty of greedy people that want their 20th or 30th house...

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I'm a firm believer that a good way to combat a certain type of activity is to reduce the incentive to engage in said activity.

Certainly allowing all characters in the same server and account to have access to the same private home would reduce the incentive to have multiple houses. Some may even let go of the houses that are not their favourite. Anyone with a larger house like a medium or a mansion could even designate sections to each of their characters, and it could lead to some really nice and interesting decor.

Any private home owner can benefit from a feature like this. SE did express interest in introducing it so I think it's only a matter of time until it comes to the game.

SE could even take it a step further and allow the alts of tenants have access to the same house, which would be beneficial to those who play with multiple accounts.

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I mean, it's not like I suggested that or anything....

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

• All characters [on the same account that are] on [the same] server gain teleport locations to all the houses owned by all the characters on that server.

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And yet I'm supposed to be some evil multiple house owner hating miscreant....

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

If the housing crisis comes to a head in Japan (like it has on the NA servers), then it may.

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whay do you know about JP server? there's 0 housing for a while here too, and when there is it's a war too, but people tend to not complaining because they know that's the way the game works and most new player work their way and buying apartment until there's an opening, they know housing don't come easy and a limited server space not a given things.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

If the housing crisis comes to a head in Japan (like it has on the NA servers), then it may.

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The biggest reason for the difference between the two environments is because the rate of earning Gil on the NA side is roughly 5x, sometimes more, than the JP side. The time it takes to be within buying power for a small house takes the average player a very long time. Because of that, the natural availability of housing with auto demolition being on almost always ensures that houses will be available. The general population of the JP market is very self sufficient. People are largely more willing to acquire things on their own instead of buying from the market for high dollar items. The behavior of the market is different on NA. There is more laziness to go around, it's very easy to become super rich over night. That is why housing demand is so different when you have people becoming millionaires within their first week of playing the game. The number of people who can afford a house is so drastically different, to keep up with that demand would be impossible on NA side.

Having the old prices of housing beforenew prices of houses after they were slashed made more sense for JP players because the prices were astronomically too high for them to achieve and the system would sit dead because of it. Coupled with the fact that RMT crackdown is much more strict here than on NA (City states have no bots advertising), the population generally shuns RMT as a whole and utilization is very low in comparison to their Western counterparts. Unfortunately, changing the price structure blew the gates open on the NA side making it easy to buy up houses. There are people who buy houses in mass on JP, but again people are not crazy about houses or specific houses being unavailable. There is less preference for location or size as opposed to can I do housing or not. Apartment use is extremely high here even if there are plenty of houses available, which there usually are during normal auto-demolition periods.

I have purchased houses both in NA and JP numerous times, but the JP market has always been easily walking up to a placard and taking whatever you find. It is only the NA market that has been so savagely cutthroat year round. The two populations see housing differently as a consumer and view their alternatives differently as well. That is why very little, if any, tension is observed on the JP side with regards to housing vs. the West.

Adjusting the prices for housing based on region/server popularity may very well be the correct first step since Yoshi himself knew that altering prices would skew demand greatly depending on the location.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

whay do you know about JP server? there's 0 housing for a while here too, and when there is it's a war too, but people tend to not complaining because they know that's the way the game works and most new player work their way and buying apartment until there's an opening, they know housing don't come easy and a limited server space not a given things.

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It should be noted that in Japanese culture complaining is often seen as stirring the pot, which they often consider to be inappropriate behaviour even when the complaint is justified. It is partially why so many aspects of their social culture are so rigid because not conforming to the norm can get you shunned. In the west we are far more open about our opinions and individuality, formality matters far less, and it's significantly more common to see people here make their complaints with drive and passion.

We've all heard the stories about how in the JP servers there can be a community blacklist in which they decide they won't play with someone anymore but would never say anything about it to their face. They just collectively decide to silently exclude certain people. Whereas in the west if a person ends up with a large number of people not wanting to play with them it is very rare for this to occur without a heated conversation between the two parties.

When Shirogane first launched it was a disaster, and I recall people saying things like "wow even the Japanese players are complaining". I would be willing to place a large bet that this is partially why SE quickly introduced new wards afterwards with new purchase restrictions in place. Even their main target audience was openly incredibly unhappy with the situation, and not something anyone could attribute to "oh it's just western players being western".

And this makes me keenly interested in seeing how the launch of Ishgard will go.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

It should be noted that in Japanese culture complaining is often seen as stirring the pot, which they often consider to be inappropriate behaviour even when the complaint is justified. It is partially why so many aspects of their social culture are so rigid because not conforming to the norm can get you shunned. In the west we are far more open about our opinions and individuality, formality matters far less, and it's significantly more common to see people here make their complaints with drive and passion.

We've all heard the stories about how in the JP servers there can be a community blacklist in which they decide they won't play with someone anymore but would never say anything about it to their face. They just collectively decide to silently exclude certain people. Whereas in the west if a person ends up with a large number of people not wanting to play with them it is very rare for this to occur without a heated conversation between the two parties.

When Shirogane first launched it was a disaster, and I recall people saying things like "wow even the Japanese players are complaining". I would be willing to place a large bet that this is partially why SE quickly introduced new wards afterwards with new purchase restrictions in place. Even their main target audience was openly incredibly unhappy with the situation, and not something anyone could attribute to "oh it's just western players being western".

And this makes me keenly interested in seeing how the launch of Ishgard will go.

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When you try to explain to a person what their own country's culture is like from your outsider perspective, it comes across as very, very racist.

Anyway that's what I meant yesterday when I said that no one demonizes you and that you do it yourself. You literally just tried to tell a Japanese person what Japanese people are like and I don't know if my pity outweighs my resentment and disgust right this second.

Anyway, my condolences to Miminming who is trying to contribute to a conversation and gets talked over. I have some questions of my own for you after speaking with some other players from the JP server on discord: do you think that the current housing prices are too high for how much money people make?

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tldr for Penthea it seems like you've caught the idiot brain rot fungus of being racist and trying very hard to rationalize it, please shut up forever about "cultural differences"

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Are you suggesting [My FC, who tried very hard to get to Shirogane housing] should be compensated for their efforts?

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I'm not suggesting anything. I'm saying quite clearly that no one who had success with their efforts should have the rewards of that success removed. The people who got houses before your FC did deserve to keep those houses. Your FC deserves another chance at more houses. Thus, new wards. And ta-da, we are back at the point that: the solution is new wards.

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Besides, the house itself [That I want taken away from you so I can have it instead] is not a reward. You complete no quests to get it, you just walk over to the placard and pay for it. In other words, it's an item. Yes, you can do a lot with it, but at the end of the day, it's no different to your character than your chocobo.

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You've directly contradicted yourself with this statement. Your FC wants "compensation for their efforts" in the form of a house. Yet a house is not "a reward?" Without looking up the definition of "reward" for you, I can confidently say that if you receive something fun as a result of you committing time, effort, and resources: that something is a reward.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

So [if we both agree that owners of multiple personal houses are not causing this problem] then please explain why it's acceptable to have more than one personal house per service account. And no, "because they were grandfathered in" is not a valid reason here.

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As I originally said, and as you agreed with: the people who own alt houses are not causing this problem. Why is it acceptable? Because it is perfectly within the game rules for those alts to own houses, and because they aren't hurting anyone. You've already agreed with me on this point. Let's move on, please.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

So... why not [Punish a couple hundred owners of alt-houses in order to] increase the number of players able to participate [by a couple hundred, of the 20,000+ who are waiting]?

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Again, the answer to the question you ask was in my post. You want to punish a couple hundred players who are loyal to ff14 and very invested in the game, so that this problem gets 1% to 3% better. That is no solution at all, and actively hurts current players that SE values. Meanwhile, 6 new wards would reduce the problem by closer to 10% and hurt absolutely no one. It's objectively a better solution.

The only complete solutions that will 100% fix the problem are: 80 new wards or instanced housing for all. SE has done the math and determined that killing .5% of players interest in the game is not the solution to housing 1% of the homeless.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

It's almost like the Japanese aren't being selfish about the matter....

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Dude, you need to drop this. Demonizing a natural part of human nature (At least in the western world) is not going to win anybody over to your side. Plenty of people are taught from childhood that stuff is all that matters. People continue to compare their stuff with other peoples stuff and always finding themselves lacking. It's a difference of societal norms and what is accepted / not accepted.

Or, in a way you'll understand. Japan doesn't like to stir the pot, whereas America never lets go of the damn ladle. Bit on the nose, but it's legitimately what materialism is and guess which countries have such a standard as the norm? Now look at all those countries and see just where all the complaints and drama is coming from?

Quote:

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The biggest reason for the difference between the two environments is

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... that JP has 25% more housing for a smaller population.

They have a full datacenter more worlds combined on their 3 clusters, and the servers lock for character creation at a lower number than NA.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catstab

<a whole ton of lies and self projection against arguments I never made after putting words in my mouth>

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Thank you for showing why it's a massive waste of time trying to talk with you as you have zero interest in a civil discussion and are only here to start a fight.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kenky

Dude, you need to drop this. Demonizing a natural part of human nature (At least in the western world) is not going to win anybody over to your side. Plenty of people are taught from childhood that stuff is all that matters. People continue to compare their stuff with other peoples stuff and always finding themselves lacking. It's a difference of societal norms and what is accepted / not accepted.

Or, in a way you'll understand. Japan doesn't like to stir the pot, whereas America never lets go of the damn ladle. Bit on the nose, but it's legitimately what materialism is and guess which countries have such a standard as the norm? Now look at all those countries and see just where all the complaints and drama is coming from?

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The US is an exceedingly diverse place, so don't assume just because you were taught that as a kid it's universal across the US.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barraind

... that JP has 25% more housing for a smaller population.

They have a full datacenter more worlds combined on their 3 clusters, and the servers lock for character creation at a lower number than NA.

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Well, that explains why the solution of adding more wards is a Sisyphean solution.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Thank you for showing why it's a massive waste of time trying to talk with you as you have zero interest in a civil discussion and are only here to start a fight.

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I put zero words in your mouth and told zero lies. You would appear to be the one looking for a fight, launching accusations like those. The bracketed text just gives context to each of the quotes of mine you were responding to.

I refuted every one of your points. I'm saying your suggestion is a bad solution to the problem. If you read and understood my previous post, that should be obvious to you now.

To repeat what I said earlier: I have only been civil. My only point is "taking in game rewards away from people who earned them is anti fun, and will not be done." You know this to be true, that's why you aren't arguing, you're just claiming I'm being uncivil, which is ridiculous. If you can refute that point, please do so. If you can't, kindly stop bumping this thread and let the bad suggestion die.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

The US is an exceedingly diverse place, so don't assume just because you were taught that as a kid it's universal across the US.

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As is the UK and most of Europe (which arguably is much more diverse than the U.S) yet guess who is also complaining that they can't get what they want when they want it? I mean, you can try and refute the country's ever-hungering greed by saying you don't do it, or don't condone it. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Greed runs the Western World and that isn't likely to change.

I would assume people could be adults and maybe not attack each other for pointless things, yet every day I am disappointed. Your previous comment to Catstab being laughably pitiful. You get called out and instead of taking the defeat, you act as if you're the victim.

Grow up and maybe, just maybe.. If you stop being the typical pot-stirrer, maybe people would care about what you say instead of point out your flaws and laugh at you.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arielen

Anyway that's what I meant yesterday when I said that no one demonizes you and that you do it yourself. You literally just tried to tell a Japanese person what Japanese people are like and I don't know if my pity outweighs my resentment and disgust right this second.

Anyway, my condolences to Miminming who is trying to contribute to a conversation and gets talked over. I have some questions of my own for you after speaking with some other players from the JP server on discord: do you think that the current housing prices are too high for how much money people make?

edit:
tldr for Penthea it seems like you've caught the idiot brain rot fungus of being racist and trying very hard to rationalize it, please shut up forever about "cultural differences"

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No, the current housing price is.extremely kind, the jp server use the coffee cookies levequest to make gil and you literaly get quite an amount of free gil every week i dunno if this method is a boom in other server or not...

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Arielen

When you try to explain to a person what their own country's culture is like from your outsider perspective, it comes across as very, very racist.

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This absolutely was not intended to be racist and if someone was offended about what I said I do sincerely apologise. I merely wanted to point out that Japanese culture is so different to the west. It's not entirely better or worse, it's just very different.

I'm not a fan of the idea that "oh look these people don't complain as much about X therefore X isn't as bad as we think" or "these people react in X way, therefore others should too". No specific culture, data centre region, data centre or server is the the most true indication of the state of anything in the game, the players' opinion about it, or how players should act. The person I quoted essentially said "the players on JP servers have a better understanding of how housing is supposed to work and this is why they complain less" which I felt was an attempt to invalidate how those elsewhere act and feel.

If a problem is bigger in one place than another that doesn't mean there is something quite wrong with how the majority of people act there. It can mean the problem is more obvious because of how they tend to vent their frustrations and/or their different population makes said problem have different effects on them.

Also just because a person complains a lot about something does not mean they don't know how it works, it can simply mean they disagree with it.

Again I sincerely apologise if I offended anyone. What I said was not done with the intention of any malice.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catstab

I put zero words in your mouth and told zero lies.

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No, you put words in my mouth when you edited my quotes to insert your own opinions, and then proceeded to argue against that fabrication as if I had said that, instead of actually addressing what I had said.

And to be honest Don Quixote, I don't need to read the rest of your post because you have nothing to contribute to this conversation.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kenky

As is the UK and most of Europe (which arguably is much more diverse than the U.S) yet guess who is also complaining that they can't get what they want when they want it? I mean, you can try and refute the country's ever-hungering greed by saying you don't do it, or don't condone it. That doesn't mean it doesn't exist. Greed runs the Western World and that isn't likely to change.

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Capitalism =/= Greed.

That said, capitalism needs morality otherwise it becomes incredibly destructive.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Kenky

You get called out and instead of taking the defeat, you act as if you're the victim.

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You can't defeat someone by lying about what they have said, as the only person that was "defeated" there was Castab when they fell on their own sword with their hypocrisy.

Edit:

Here's what Castab inserted that showed him to be an incredibly dishonest person:

https://i.imgur.com/s7DLBbQ.png

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Everything up until now.

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Thank you for your 4062nd feedback submission. Your concerns are very important to us and help us create a better experience in the world of Final Fantasy. We hope that you will continue to enjoy Final Fantasy XIV™. Have a nice day! :)

You may now close this window.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Here's what Castab inserted that showed him to be an incredibly dishonest person:

https://i.imgur.com/s7DLBbQ.png

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Well that was a pretty low thing to do. Yikes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Here's what Castab inserted that showed him to be an incredibly dishonest person: -> *Show's that Catstab added "[I want your house taken away so I can have it]" to Almagnus's statement regarding why having houses taken away is no big deal*

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Quote:

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Well that was a pretty low thing to do. Yikes.

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Alright, apparently it's time to explain how brackets work. When a quote you use adds to an earlier statement, or responds to a question, it's common to re-add that content paraphrased within brackets so your audience doesn't have to re-read absolutely everything to understand the quote.

Example:
Interviewer: Do you like waffles?
Subject: I do.
Published quote: "I do [like waffles]" - Subject

Here is the text I paraphrased for context.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

SE should auto demolish all houses owned by an account except for the one bought first.

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Almagnus says her FC tried very hard to move to 'Kurogane' and deserves a reward for their efforts in the form of a house.
Almagnus also says it's not a big deal if current house owners get their houses deleted, because those houses aren't rewards.

I took the last statement of 'the house isn't a reward anyway' and added the context of 'so you should be ok with SE deleting yours so my FC can have it as their reward' which is paraphrased from her previous two statements.

Therefore, what I did was not dishonest, and it was not low. Thank you for your baseless insults. I hope this lesson in middle school reading comprehension has been enlightening.

Anyway, it still stands, Almagnus, that you have directly contradicted your own argument.

You say your FC worked hard and deserves a reward in the form of a house. You also say it would be easier for the homeless players and FCs to get houses if people who have alt-houses lost the houses they worked for. You explain that this is fair because 'houses aren't rewards.'

Houses cannot simultaneously exist as rewards for your FC's effort, but simple 'items, like a chocobo' for other people. This is the part where every point you've made so far fell apart. Why don't you respond to that logical argument, instead of calling me dishonest. Since, put plainly, that is an incorrect assertion.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Well that was a pretty low thing to do. Yikes.

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But speaking on behalf of Japan and their people to elevate yourself in a conversation on assumptions you got from a few pokemon games and a youtube video wasn't low at all. Yikes.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by PewPewPewPewPew

But speaking on behalf of Japan and their people to elevate yourself in a conversation on assumptions you got from a few pokemon games and a youtube video wasn't low at all. Yikes.

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Yes you're correct. I learned everything about Japanese culture from a Pikachu card. You have found out my secret. Oh no.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catstab

Here is the text I paraphrased for context.

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The context you placed was your personal opinion on what the person was saying. Not that anything I say would ever inspire you to admit that ;D

EDIT: I am referring to where you essentially accused them of wanting to take away your house so they personally can have it instead.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Penthea

The context you placed was your personal opinion on what the person was saying.

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No, it wasn't.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

SE should auto demolish all houses owned by an account except for the one bought first.

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This is Almagnus saying current players houses should be deleted.

I write that players worked for those houses and shouldn't lose them. She quotes that line and says this in response:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

Do you realize how many hours members of my FC spent trying to relo to Kurogane, including trying to relo the FC house from Mist to Kurogane only to have nothing?
I imagine they're not alone, and there are probably others in the same boat as well.
Are you suggesting they should be compensated for their efforts?
Besides, the house itself is not a reward. You complete no quests to get it, you just walk over to the placard and pay for it. In other words, it's an item. Yes, you can do a lot with it, but at the end of the day, it's no different to your character than your chocobo.

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This is Almagnus saying her FC worked hard and deserves a reward in the form of a house at their desired location, and simultaneously saying that houses cannot be considered rewards by people who would lose them under her proposed solution.

To say "Almagnus wants player houses deleted for the direct benefit of herself and her FC" is not twisting her words at all. It's a summary of her stance.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Catstab

No, it wasn't.

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Unless you can provide proof that they actually said they want a house that belongs to you personally for themselves, then it was.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Unless you can provide proof that they actually said they want a house that belongs to you personally for themselves, then it was.

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Do you not even read their posts? Jeez. It's like several people in this discussion want nothing but to be antagonistic. Go elsewhere for a fight, since it's damn clear you've lost days ago.

In any case, Almagnus. Let's make it pretty clear what you're aiming for and how that changes with your statements.

1. You want people who own multiple houses (Specifically those that own private housing on alternate characters) to lose their houses, claiming they do not deserve them and that releasing .05% of the housing plots would magically fix everything. This is grossly out of the question. People shouldn't lose what they earned through legitimate channels and effort because some other insignificant spec on the radar demands to be above them.

2. You want FCs who own multiple houses to give up all but one of their buildings and the housing system in its entirety to have new rules that reflect your personal desires, going to the point of punishing people in the Now for following the rules in the Past. No. That's insane. Again, the issues you continue to claim are "ruining housing" isn't ruining it. Things you claim that are against the rules aren't actually against the rules. Nobody is breaking any terms with what they are doing and demonizing people for selfish acts is, once again, beyond stupid. Basic human nature and everyone, no matter who they are or what they say, act selfish quite a number of times every day to the point that it's an unconscious act, given it's so ingrained in human nature.

There is no clear-cut "solution" to housing at present, purely because of a serious lack of information on SE's side of things. Before Stormblood, the housing was fine and dandy. But with sudden population booms and the cry for people to get everything they want whenever they want it (completely ignoring the main concept of housing being a prestige or optional luxury) which has lead to topics like that that refuse to listen to anything but their own voice.

There is no guarantee that housing CAN be fixed. SE can open new wards, to the point where every player can have a house, but then more people will return to FFXIV and thus, render it a useless solution as there will always be more people coming over because of said system, only to cry that they can't have it right now. Continuing to ignore the entire damn point of Apartments Not everyone wants Instanced Housing. Even SE has said "No" to instanced housing, purely because they want the Neighborhood feeling. Not some random building kept in the void.

There is only so much SE can do before something snaps. Given the majority of their playerbase couldn't care less about housing, it's not going to get any serious touch-ups until SE have a large lull in work (which won't happen, mind!) to be able to put people onto such a project.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Well that was a pretty low thing to do. Yikes.

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And now that they've been caught with their hand in the cookie jar, there's no point in talking with them further because it's clear that all they want to do is demonize someone that thinks differently from them.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Almagnus1

And now that they've been caught with their hand in the cookie jar, there's no point in talking with them further because it's clear that all they want to do is demonize someone that thinks differently from there.

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You've lost your last leg to stand on in this debate, so you've resorted to insults. Ignore me all you want, but you directly contradicted yourself and I proved it. This thread is dead, yet here we all are, practicing our necromancy.

Maybe that could be a new ff14 class, next expansion? We did get one in the new 4 man.