Which jobs is at its prime?

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Originally Posted by Eliadil

That's pretty much how everybody who played in SB perceive its own "main" job in Shadowbringers I think. ... NIN mains are unhappy about the rework or their job since ShB. ... RDMs are unhappy too... In the end, everybody who took the time to master a job in stormblood is left unhappy about the changes.

I mean, who isn't except DRG and BLM ? Nobody. :D
That's a shame, but we'll have to endure 'till 6.0

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Er... what?
NIN is the currently the best it's ever been, and RDM is virtually unchanged since SB except for a better AoE rotation and an extra finisher.

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Originally Posted by ZechinOmeda

Tanks are by far a disappointment in ShB. They are at their prime. Aggro is 100% easier than before. No more struggling. defence cooldowns are better and tanks take less damage overall. Better skills, both single target and aoe. All tanks are much better now than they ever were. SE has done a great job balancing them.
Now, as for healers, they are the most unbalanced role. Ranged dps need help as their damage does not compare to casters or melee, but healers were killed off to the point all you see is whm. Like, where is sch and ast? If not raiding, then they don't matter. Whm is the only healer you need

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I think you mean "far from" not "by far" but I mostly agree.
I don't play much of WAR or PLD, but I gather PLD is in a fairly good place, although WAR seems to have been further simplified.
I prefer the new DRK, although I know many don't, and GNB is great.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

I agree that BRD is in bad place but the AoE is definitely not too simple imo and is one of the great things about BRD, it can't be put in a set rotation and even general guidelines aren't very usefull. It's feelcrafty and you have to feel when and how to dot mobs as well as how to manage your songs and procs. I really think a BRD that knows what they're doing can outperform every job in this game AoE dps wise, while a BRD that only does the bare minimum will do less than any other job probably. High skill ceiling for AoE.

This doesn't concern you in particular, but it annoys me when people ask for an ability like Bane for BRD, since that would likely mean significant nerfs to its AoE dps and they'll be stuck then in another rigid rotation like other jobs, which also wouldn't fit their flavor I'd say.

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I get that and my bad for not being more specific. I meant that when gigantic mobs get pulled we don't have much at our disposal to deal with them so it turns into a quick nock spam and keep dots on 1 or 2 enemies.

I had read a BRD guide and after a certain count (may have been 5 not sure) it said nothing is better than spamming quick nock. I'd just like for more tools to deal with those gigantic mobs, even if it were more skills like shadowbite.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Er... what?
NIN is the currently the best it's ever been.

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I absolutely despise the current Nin to a point that I can't play it without getting angry since outside burst it's 123, 123, 123 bhava and no more double weaving.

Some people may like it but there were multiple threads of angry players when the changes happened so saying everyone is happy with the class wouldn't be accurate. There's less complaints around now because some Nin mains quit the game.

I know it's just a difference in opinions but something wasn't clearly right when they managed to anger half their base.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Er... what?
NIN is the currently the best it's ever been

RDM is virtually unchanged since SB except

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Stormblood's ninja would like to disagree (but maybe it was actually too strong at the time). :p

And while RDM is in a far better spot than it was at the release of ShB due to most of its low damage being buffed, I think that RDM players are still kinda salty about SMN still being the invincible king since its "rework". RDM is fine overall, but SMN completely overshadows the class right now, and that's the problem.

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Originally Posted by Eliadil

Stormblood's ninja would like to disagree (but maybe it was actually too strong at the time). :p

And while RDM is in a far better spot than it was at the release of ShB due to most of its low damage being buffed, I think that RDM players are still kinda salty about SMN still being the invincible king since its "rework". RDM is fine overall, but SMN completely overshadows the class right now, and that's the problem.

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Smns are also unhappy by the "rework". Literally this is Just a worse version of stormblood smn in every aspect.

The majority of people who stopped playing Ninja didn't stop playing Ninja because of rotation changes. People stopped playing because ninja was contributing less damage than everything but dancer but which still took way more effort to achieve than most jobs despite the simplification of the rotation. They got a dps re-tune in 5.1 and ended up in a good spot again. The general vibe tends to be one of two views: people that love the mudra changes because it makes the job playable for them, or people who like most of the changes but dislike the pace of the new mudra yet understand why it was done. Yes there are people who claimed they rage quit in angry posts about GCD mudra, but you get that kind of posing with any job any time changes happen. They were far from the majority.

Someone in a thread from back then summed it up the overall average response to the changes pretty succinctly: "It feels different, but it doesn't feel bad..."

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Originally Posted by Eliadil

And while RDM is in a far better spot than it was at the release of ShB due to most of its low damage being buffed, I think that RDM players are still kinda salty about SMN still being the invincible king since its "rework". RDM is fine overall, but SMN completely overshadows the class right now, and that's the problem.

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SMN completely overshadows every job in the game right now. RDM has nothing to do with it.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Er... what?
and RDM is virtually unchanged since SB except for a better AoE rotation and an extra finisher.

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Well this is a pretty silly argument. RDM has long been treated as a joke, sadly. Trust me, I know - I've been playing the job since StB and in fact it's the main reason why I came back to the game when that expansion dropped. Saying "It's just like stormblood RDM except maybe slightly better" isn't saying much. It still sucks compared to the competition in its role, and many people still roll their eyes when they see one pop up.

Here's a fun little game you can play. Why not spend some time viewing the static recruitment ads to see what jobs people looking for casters are advertising for? You will see a lot of "We want a SMN, but BLM works fine too." Hey, for people just playing through the story, RDM is fine. But RDM fans who clear savage have pretty good reasons to be annoyed with the state of irrelevance the job seems permanently stuck in.

If your static need a RDM at this point, they are a joke (lol no seriously tou should consider to leave them)... i main SMN but decide to change to RDM this patch because of how SMN gameplay is clunky vs RDM fluid gameplay, it's simple yet fun dish more than enough damage can save many run even both healer death, Fun enough for me to throw away my book that i use for 2 years.

Sometime high dps is not the answer...

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Originally Posted by Miminming

If your static need a RDM at this point, they are a joke (lol no seriously tou should consider to leave them)...

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What is this even supposed to mean? RDM is a caster, you take a RDM because you need a caster. This is the exact kind of thing I'm talking about. RDM isn't some job you take because you need dualcast raise. It's a job you take because you need a caster. Also, if your party thinks the difference between a RDM and a SMN is the difference between enrage and a clear then what does that say about your party?

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Originally Posted by Miminming

i main SMN but decide to change to RDM this patch because of how SMN gameplay is clunky vs RDM fluid gameplay, it's simple yet fun dish more than enough damage can save many run even both healer death, Fun enough for me to throw away my book that i use for 2 years.

Sometime high dps is not the answer...

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There are lots of things to love about Red Mage. It's my favorite job for a reason. It was even my favorite job during 5.0 when it was arguably the worst job in the game due to its low DPS and its inability to even maintain its own single-target damage rotation without going out of mana. It's never going to be bad enough for me to abandon it and if it was then the solution is to complain a lot until it gets fixed.

But that's not the point. The point is how job balance impacts player perception and how that impacts the game experience for people who love certain jobs. If you have to constantly justify your own existence while someone playing a different job has people clamoring for them to join simply because of the job they play, then that reflects poorly on job balance.

No, the point is OP ask what jobs in its prime, not what job is having the highest DPD and RDM is definately on its Prime based on how low they complain they are having atm and even satisfaction poll on several site (not official so i say not that reliable).

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Originally Posted by Miminming

No, the point is OP ask what jobs in its prime, not what job is having the highest DPD and RDM is definately on its Prime based on how low they complain they are having atm and even satisfaction poll on several site (not official so i say not that reliable).

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Just ignore them. 90% of their posts are putting people down, and the other 10% are complaining that RDM is too simple and/or not valued in raids.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

Just ignore them. 90% of their posts are putting people down, and the other 10% are complaining that RDM is too simple and/or not valued in raids.

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In the future, I will be sure to only make posts that are in agreement with the views expressed by the normal raid hero Mhaeric Llystrom.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

No, the point is OP ask what jobs in its prime, not what job is having the highest DPD and RDM is definately on its Prime based on how low they complain they are having atm and even satisfaction poll on several site (not official so i say not that reliable).

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And my point is that it's sad commentary on the state of job balance when a job's "prime" is still woefully inadequate. And it's sad that so many fail to see it. You're welcome to disagree, but that won't stop me from adding in my 2 cents. Public forum and all.

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Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty

And my point is that it's sad commentary on the state of job balance when a job's "prime" is still woefully inadequate. And it's sad that so many fail to see it. You're welcome to disagree, but that won't stop me from adding in my 2 cents. Public forum and all.

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So do you think all DPS jobs should deal exactly the same damage?

Btw, I've cleared savage as RDM without any issues.

Seems like the issue is "the meta" and all you're doing is adding to the problem.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

So do you think all DPS jobs should deal exactly the same damage?

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As I said in another post, an arms race isn't necessarily the answer to every question, but differences in total rDPS from one job to the next should be minimal. I'm more than comfortable with a (reasonable, minimal) raise tax, for example. Part of the problem is that there shouldn't be a direct competitor job that is capable of raising while not suffering said tax. I don't really consider BLM a problem, but Summoner on the other hand is a plague on caster balance that needs to be addressed one way or another. My preferred solution (which I've stated multiple times) is to remove Summoner's ability to use a rez in combat. Then it can compete directly with BLM and RDM can settle into its role as the (somewhat, not too much) weaker alternative with great utility.

With that said, yes, the goal should be to have every DPS job do somewhat similar amounts of rDPS. This is a strict holy trinity MMO that loves to lean on hard enrage mechanics and therefore damage is king. Differences are fine, but balance means groups should be comfortable working with any job from each of the roles.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Seems like the issue is "the meta" and all you're doing is adding to the problem.

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We can rail against "the meta" all we want but I tend to prefer living in reality and addressing it head-on. I don't really agree with your assertion that simply acknowledging issues in job balance is contributing to the problem. I play, and have played for some time, a job which has long been mocked or ignored. I'm not advocating for its exclusion on the basis of meta - What I'm doing is advocating for change. I'm saying that "better than before" does not necessarily equal "good enough."

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Btw, I've cleared savage as RDM without any issues.

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Honestly not really relevant here. Of course you can clear savage as RDM - That's not the issue.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

So do you think all DPS jobs should deal exactly the same damage?

Btw, I've cleared savage as RDM without any issues.

Seems like the issue is "the meta" and all you're doing is adding to the problem.

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Clearing earlier floors after having so long to gear up isnt an issue for any class, even some of the later ones after gearing can be fine if you get hard carried, so saying "I cleared savage" doesnt really add anything, I did final omega back in the day on my undergeared red mage and got hard carried so dps check wasnt an issue, that doesnt make rdm any more or less in need of attention

So to answer the OPs post as best as I can form an opinion.
Tanks: decently balanced, best they've ever been
Healers: 5.0 they were decently balanced but as time goes on ASt will become over powered due to % based cards yielding higher and higher DPS. from a healing side, all three are viable
Mages: BLM is in a good place, SMN is over powered and RDM is ok
Melee: imo all four melee are ok, in a good place. but as with AST, NIN will become more and more over powered as the iLevel increases due to % based buffs (trick)
Ranged:BRD is in the gutter. And all three ranged imo are under tuned. not by much (maybe 250-500 DPS) but enough for me to rant for hours if needed. not gonna write it here, save it for another time.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

No, the point is OP ask what jobs in its prime, not what job is having the highest DPD and RDM is definately on its Prime based on how low they complain they are having atm and even satisfaction poll on several site (not official so i say not that reliable).

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A job cannot be "at its prime" while still being the least played Caster in end game content. Now that isn't inherently Red Mage's fault. Summoner is grossly overtuned but that still impacts Red Mage's status. For comparison sake, Samurai was pretty much loved in Stormblood. Too bad the existence of Piercing and how much people focused on pDPS meant no one cared. You aren't a Dragoon or Ninja.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

So do you think all DPS jobs should deal exactly the same damage?

Btw, I've cleared savage as RDM without any issues.

Seems like the issue is "the meta" and all you're doing is adding to the problem.

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The difference should be close to negligible, yes. As it currently stands, Red Mage is objectively inferior to Summoner is nearly every way. At best, you could argue Red Mage is easier to learn but that's hardly a trade off when none of the jobs are overly difficult. Some simply demand more practice. No one job, especially not in the same role, should beat its competition at everything.

None of this is to say Red Mage isn't viable. Viability and balance are not inherently the same though. Bard is visible. It's also laughably worse than every other DPS in the game.

Then I guess my question is: How much of the player share is required for a job to be 'at it's prime'?
33%? 50%?
Is it a mutually exclusive state which means only one job of any role is ever currently 'at it's prime', and that's the most played job?
And if the player share of a job is proportional to it's dps in a raid setting, does that mean 'prime' is proportional to dps output?

Or, is 'at it's prime' a condition that's entirely isolated to the job in question, and does not factor in the situation of any other jobs?
Surely 'at it's prime' relates to the functionality of the job, it's ease of skill use, rotation flow, utility/performance, and job identity, all being adequately fulfilled.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Then I guess my question is: How much of the player share is required for a job to be 'at it's prime'?
33%? 50%?
Is it a mutually exclusive state which means only one job of any role is ever currently 'at it's prime', and that's the most played job?
And if the player share of a job is proportional to it's dps in a raid setting, does that mean 'prime' is proportional to dps output?

Or, is 'at it's prime' a condition that's entirely isolated to the job in question, and does not factor in the situation of any other jobs?
Surely 'at it's prime' relates to the functionality of the job, it's ease of skill use, rotation flow, utility/performance, and job identity, all being adequately fulfilled.

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Acting like meta position has anything to do with a job being "in its prime" is ridiculous, because that would suggest that Monk on Shadowbringers launch was "in its prime". That was historically Monk being stronger than it's ever been, but Shadowbringers is Monk's design at its historical worst.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

A job cannot be "at its prime" while still being the least played Caster in end game content. Now that isn't inherently Red Mage's fault. Summoner is grossly overtuned but that still impacts Red Mage's status. For comparison sake, Samurai was pretty much loved in Stormblood. Too bad the existence of Piercing and how much people focused on pDPS meant no one cared. You aren't a Dragoon or Ninja.



The difference should be close to negligible, yes. As it currently stands, Red Mage is objectively inferior to Summoner is nearly every way. At best, you could argue Red Mage is easier to learn but that's hardly a trade off when none of the jobs are overly difficult. Some simply demand more practice. No one job, especially not in the same role, should beat its competition at everything.

None of this is to say Red Mage isn't viable. Viability and balance are not inherently the same though. Bard is visible. It's also laughably worse than every other DPS in the game.

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No end game content in this game of not even played by half of the player, you cannot jugde what is at its prime by nitpicking end game player oppinion only, why? Because that's called meta not prime, there like far more RDM in the wild than you think, the OP could easily ask for meta if he want to hear the meta.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Then I guess my question is: How much of the player share is required for a job to be 'at it's prime'?
33%? 50%?
Is it a mutually exclusive state which means only one job of any role is ever currently 'at it's prime', and that's the most played job?
And if the player share of a job is proportional to it's dps in a raid setting, does that mean 'prime' is proportional to dps output?

Or, is 'at it's prime' a condition that's entirely isolated to the job in question, and does not factor in the situation of any other jobs?
Surely 'at it's prime' relates to the functionality of the job, it's ease of skill use, rotation flow, utility/performance, and job identity, all being adequately fulfilled.

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I think everything should be factored. Think of this way, a job could be perfectly designed in its rotation and ease of use but if the other jobs in said role offer more. It's all rendered pointless since people aren't going to care from a balance perspective. Dismissing the meta entirely seems silly when content below EX and Savage are so poorly undertuned, it really doesn't matter. With that said, focusing exclusively on their meta position is equally flawed for the precise reason SpeckledBurd pointed out. Monk was technically strong in 5.05 meta wise, albeit largely because Ninja and Samurai were in such a bad state. Regardless, it's actually gameplay was atrocious.

I guess a better way to put it, at least, in my opinion, it sort of a review where each category weighs into the overhaul average.

BLM is in a pretty good spot. Everything dies and you don't have to worry about MP during battle anymore unless you miss a transition...

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Originally Posted by Darsien

Counterpoint: Players that are not good enough to enter the endgame are also not good enough to know what "prime" is due to lack of game knowledge and experience. How can a player that struggles to play the game possibly know what would qualify if a job is in its prime or not?

In the end, the question is entirely subjective. You cannot exclude a group of players simply because of your personal opinion of them. Someone saying Monk is in its prime right now is just as valid as someone saying it is not. The same applies to every other job in the game. So no exclusionary statements, eh?

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You are kind of wrong there, while you dont need to be the best X job player in the world you should know how the class plays in a variety of content from just leveling to endgame, so the question is clearly not subjective. By the same token you dont ask a medical student if you have any kind of condition do you? you ask someone that at the very least have some degree of knowledge or experience, now you dont ask the worlds foremost expert in the field but a doctor that at least has finished medical school. Or you dont ask some first timer that has just build its first PC how is the landscape of GPUs and what Graphics card is in its prime, they will most likely dont know about that.

And yes i agree that you should not exclude part of the player base because of your opinion of them, however you can exclude them because if you only do one type of content your experience with the class is significantly less and thus carries less weigth than someone who does a variety of other activities. Someone saying that Monk is in their prime hasnt played it at all (and yes i know that you just mentoned MNK as an example so let me make an example of my own), and no i dont mean this as in "oh MNK is bad in x content" Mnk currently feels bad to play in EVERY TYPE OF PVE content (do take notice that i did wrote PvE) the leveleing up is abysmal (even more so than other classes), in the DNG scene you can see the gap between MNK and others, in overoworld is simply hard to maintain and gain GL when you are farming for matterials or just doing Hunts, In mid level raids (ex trials, etc) it falls behind almost everyone, barring BRD, in both utility and DPS, and in high level it suffers the same issues. Now is it impossible to clear content with this class? No, of course not, as a MNK only player i have cleared almost every savage with some ease, that, however, is not to say that MNK is in a good spot; mechanicaly is the only class that punishes the player for using its skills (even if you use them properly), it has a pletora of redundant skills and some that are even in clear clash with other skills, it has party dependency issues that no other class has, its party buff skill afects the rotation of MNK and since its dependant of the party and RNG is way outside the players control, and it demands all that and then some from the player for minimal rewards.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

I think everything should be factored. Think of this way, a job could be perfectly designed in its rotation and ease of use but if the other jobs in said role offer more. It's all rendered pointless since people aren't going to care from a balance perspective. Dismissing the meta entirely seems silly when content below EX and Savage are so poorly undertuned, it really doesn't matter. With that said, focusing exclusively on their meta position is equally flawed for the precise reason SpeckledBurd pointed out. Monk was technically strong in 5.05 meta wise, albeit largely because Ninja and Samurai were in such a bad state. Regardless, it's actually gameplay was atrocious.

I guess a better way to put it, at least, in my opinion, it sort of a review where each category weighs into the overhaul average.

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This actually is been a question of mine, how does the FF14 dev team balance jobs out?

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Originally Posted by Darsien

Someone saying Monk is in its prime right now is just as valid as someone saying it is not.

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No. Just... no.

I'd be fine with this sentiment if you had used any other job as an example, but MNK is probably the worst one you could've chosen.

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Originally Posted by Miminming

No end game content in this game of not even played by half of the player, you cannot jugde what is at its prime by nitpicking end game player oppinion only, why? Because that's called meta not prime, there like far more RDM in the wild than you think, the OP could easily ask for meta if he want to hear the meta.

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I don't think that's how FFXIV job design works though. Casual content is so... well casual than you can't really only use this data to judge of a job's "prime" or performance.
See Stormblood's White Mage. It was terribly performing compared to AST, who healed better and DPS'ed better and buffed the group. But White Mage was the most popular healer in the playerbase. Because dungeons and normal raids have virtually close to no difficulty / healing and DPS checks that would have showed how WHM could struggle. Casual content can be done by everyone, every job, even people that can't understand a job's rotation won't be punished for it.

Meta is yet another discussion, it has nothing to do with what I personally understand as prime when I think about job mechanics and design. But meta is as much a niche part of endgame content than, say RDM being able to chain raise in one unluchy 24 man raid. It's not relevant to the discussion there. I'd say BLM is in its prime in terms of design and feel, but it is still underperforming compared to SMN. Counter-example : AST is currently the "best healer" on theory, it heals so well and buffs the group. But a majority of people feel the job's gameplay isn't as good as it used to be. But you can't see any of that in casual content.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

Feel free to think that if you want. Opinions are subjective, and that's what's being asked in this thread: one's opinion on if a class is in it's "prime" or not. I'm not sure why you're trying to argue otherwise. I wanted to address the quoted passage specifically, though. If you're going to go with that sort of angle, there is maybe 2 people in this thread with opinions worth considering. Kinda inhibits discussion, eh? Luckily, again, the premise is a matter of personal opinion. As unfortunate as it is sometimes, everyone has them.

If a thread is just people presenting their opinions while being unwilling to listen to opinions of others for whatever reason or criteria, there isn't really a point, is there? I was merely presenting the fact that, in this discussion, everyone from the worst players to the best players' opinions are valid.

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I dont think you read very well, i never argued against that. Also yes opinions ARE subjective but do not forget that they can also be wrong, those two are not mutually exclusive, i could have the opinion that the sun is a disco ball in the sky, and as you wrote i am free to have that opinion, however, that doesnt mean that said opinion is correct or even valid, people are free to exclude that opinion if i cant argue to prove or defend it and yes you must defend it otherwise dont say your opinion, the first step towards respecting and listening to an opinion is that the person who says that opinion can defend it with arguments not just groundless believe. People are not unwilling to listen, well maybe they are but lets say otherwise for the sake of argument, but you must present an argument if you want your opinion to be taken seriously otherwise...well disco ball in the sky is valid opinion and is it not hypocretical of you to say that you should listen to others opinions when you are unwilling to do so yourself?

That i listen to your opinion doesnt mean that agree with it in fact, i disagree with your opinion because i listen to it and thus made a response, with arguments to back it up not just "opinions are valid", in opposition to SOME (this is important) of the ideas that you presented in your argument. I was merely presenting the fact that experience will create a better and more complete view and will give you more arguments to present your opinion in a better way, i am just baffled that you missed this.

You should really learn how to read and how to hold an argument because if i am free to think what i want then who are you to say anything about my opinion? That seems asinine doesnt it and i am using your words, also i am not talking about skill level at all, if you are going with that sort of angle, eh? Luckily, again, my point is that exeprience will make your opinion better, disregarding what that opinion is, by that same token i never said anything about opinions being worth considering or not, i always wrote that they carry more weight because of experience, so they can articulate better the "why" of their opinions, well not that it matters you clearly do not get the point at all and missed when i said "a variety of content" and what i meant by that, but is okay it starting to seem that you are not reading what i write properly converting this from an argument to a "shouting match" of sorts and i will not lower myself to that.

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Originally Posted by reyre

This actually is been a question of mine, how does the FF14 dev team balance jobs out?

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A good question. And sadly one none of us know. Their balancing decisions seem entirely baffling at times, which leads me to believe they're too broad in their approach. Perhaps the single best example of this misstep is Piercing. They never once accounted for the impact it had on Bard and Machinist despite Bard's overwhelming dominance from 3.4 to 5.0. Likewise, it's clear they put greater stock into things the playerbase doesn't. Verraise and Vercure are seen as staple utility to Red Mage's kit yet you'll be hard pressed to find good Red Mage players who even want to look at either abilities, especially Vercure. Healers are hit by that mentality worse than others since the dev team still seems to believe we focus on healing when even Savage simply doesn't necessitate enough to justify the sheer abundance at each Healer's disposal.

All in all, there exists a very sizable disconnect between how the dev teams believe we play/should play and how we actually do. Part of that can be attributed to prevalence of FFlogs since it's the main reason no one cares about things like Vercure. But you really can't fault the playerbase for being so damage focused when content encourages very little else.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

A good question. And sadly one none of us know. Their balancing decisions seem entirely baffling at times, which leads me to believe they're too broad in their approach. Perhaps the single best example of this misstep is Piercing. They never once accounted for the impact it had on Bard and Machinist despite Bard's overwhelming dominance from 3.4 to 5.0. Likewise, it's clear they put greater stock into things the playerbase doesn't. Verraise and Vercure are seen as staple utility to Red Mage's kit yet you'll be hard pressed to find good Red Mage players who even want to look at either abilities, especially Vercure. Healers are hit by that mentality worse than others since the dev team still seems to believe we focus on healing when even Savage simply doesn't necessitate enough to justify the sheer abundance at each Healer's disposal.

All in all, there exists a very sizable disconnect between how the dev teams believe we play/should play and how we actually do. Part of that can be attributed to prevalence of FFlogs since it's the main reason no one cares about things like Vercure. But you really can't fault the playerbase for being so damage focused when content encourages very little else.

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Then i have another question, where do the devs get their feedback? Im assuming here that its actually true that they actually take palyer feedback into account but, at the very least from a MNK perspective, it seems that they dont or at the very least they dont seem to take feedback from the official forums too much.

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Originally Posted by reyre

Then i have another question, where do the devs get their feedback? Im assuming here that its actually true that they actually take palyer feedback into account but, at the very least from a MNK perspective, it seems that they dont or at the very least they dont seem to take feedback from the official forums too much.

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Once again, we can only speculate. They do poke around reddit but I tend to think they mostly stick to their own ideas and only listen to feedback if it fits into their existing design philosophy. Monk is a really stand out in this regard because they've clung to its core design for years despite increasingly negative feedback. Meanwhile, I can't recall a single complaint here or on reddit about Astro's cards yet that got such a massive overhaul. So that's what leads me to think they mostly follow their own ideas.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Once again, we can only speculate. They do poke around reddit but I tend to think they mostly stick to their own ideas and only listen to feedback if it fits into their existing design philosophy. Monk is a really stand out in this regard because they've clung to its core design for years despite increasingly negative feedback. Meanwhile, I can't recall a single complaint here or on reddit about Astro's cards yet that got such a massive overhaul. So that's what leads me to think they mostly follow their own ideas.

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So wait you are telling me that in essence the player base is completely in the dark about the battle jobs, which are the vast majority of content users, and the player has no idea if some, all or none of their complains, praise or sugestions actually matter at all, is just what FF14 dev wants and that is the end of it? So the whole "we are listening to our player base" is a bunch of BS, then what is the point of official forums and the like, what a waste of resources.

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Originally Posted by reyre

So wait you are telling me that in essence the player base is completely in the dark about the battle jobs, which are the vast majority of content users, and the player has no idea if some, all or none of their complains, praise or sugestions actually matter at all, is just what FF14 dev wants and that is the end of it? So the whole "we are listening to our player base" is a bunch of BS, then what is the point of official forums and the like, what a waste of resources.

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I think ForteNightshade did a great job of underlining the limits to that system, but they do listen to feedback somehow. It just feels weird what they choose to focus on (and when). Like Ninja got an overhaul in 5.1 based on what I gather, negative feedback over 5.0 Ninja.
They re-did MCH for 5.X because its 4.X iteration was very clunky and weird. Same for DRK. So they do listen to some complaints.

On the other hand, they did ignore White Mage for pretty much 3.4 until 5.0, and you can bet that now AST is on par / superior to WHM, WHM will be forgotten again.
There is currently a quite strong request that physical ranged jobs should be buffed but it has not been acknowledged. Healers are unhappy with the 5.X healing design, no acknowledgement either.

It boils down to that mystery zone of what they CAN do, what they WANT to do, and WHEN they do it. That and separating constructive feedback and general forum rant too :)

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Originally Posted by Mansion

There is currently a quite strong request that physical ranged jobs should be buffed but it has not been acknowledged.

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to be fair, part of that may be because you also got a lot of players that act like if you give mch another 200~ dps and get the other physical ranged up to the same level no one will take anything but 4 phys ranged anymore, and considering we have the god decided setup of 2/1/1 to adher to at all costs (because thats how the game started out, so of course its intendet that it stays like this forever no matter what, also just look how square offers 4 spots close to the boss for most mechanics) its also unnecessary to buff the physical ranged either way as the 1% dps buff they offer simply for being taken barely makes up for their sucky numbers (possibly, at least in bards case most definately not but whatever) and if anything a slight caster nerf would fix all problems for the physical ranged as that would get us back to our god intendet times of 2/1/1 putting phys ranged in the same boat as casters regardless of being ridiculously overtaxed for their mobility....


that aside, class design wise i think we should cut the developers some slack at least, it indeed often is not easy to know just what to do with a class, because people want different things, and change for the sake of change generally is a bad idea, extreme cases like monk most likely being the exception.

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Originally Posted by Akiudo

that aside, class design wise i think we should cut the developers some slack at least, it indeed often is not easy to know just what to do with a class, because people want different things, and change for the sake of change generally is a bad idea, extreme cases like monk most likely being the exception.

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This tbh. From what I recall, when ninja got released, the playerbase found a rotation totally different from what the devs intended. I think that they tend to avoid to "plan" too much of a job's optimization because they don't want to enforce some players on something that could be potentially a "wrong" rotation. I mean, we all see the SMN rotation, and we all see that its cooldown slightly drift each time. We can see what type of rotation was planned by the devs, but we can also see that they didn't get "too" involved in the hardcore rotation optimization, which would have avoided this "cooldown drift" issue. This is both good and bad, because it gives players more freedom when it comes to fight optimization/job optimization, but it's also bad because there's a lot of clunkyness that could be avoided if more care/polish was put into jobs other than DRG and BLM.

As another example, SAM's current iteration is a perfect representation of this mindset. You clearly identify what they wanted to do with the rotation, and clearly know what design they went for (high burst cooldowns every minute). Sadly, when you take the time to learn and theorycraft a bit more around the job, you see that it's a good idead that doesn't play well/isn't implemented correctly, forcing players to do massive adjustement to the rotation.

And also don't worry, when Eureka 2.0 comes out, RDM will be at its prime again. :)

BLM easily. it's yoshi's baby and it'll never face any hardship because he has a close eye on it. SAM feels much better after the recent changes to shoha and addition of tsubame gaeshi (and it already felt pretty great when it was introduced), SMN feels good because it's overtuned currently and NIN plays basically the same but doesn't hit like a wet sock anymore. I'd call PLD's metamorphosis 'finished' as of shb, since both it's physical and magical halves seem pretty complete now. WAR's basically the same as ever, with a teensy bit more of it's old ARR self-healing restored and looking real dated next to GNB and PLD.

healers are all bunk after the devs gutted them (rather than giving WHM a downtime activity, they took SCH and AST's activities away), and DRK got turned into WAR with effectively -2 defensive cooldowns and +6 oGCD attacks

BLU still makes me depressed.

Nice to see that I'm not alone in feeling that SAM and RDM are in a good place mechanically. Sure RDM is not overly complex but I'm not sure why it needs to be. It just feels great to play with the tools it has right now outside of lacking a bit in AoE variety. Not every DPS needs to break your brain to be enjoyable.

MNK really does need the most work. It's got some cool core ideas and some great animations but the class mechanically just feels like a complete mess after level 50 or 60. There are some god ideas there but they need to go back to the drawing board to figure out how it should all really work as a cohesive job.

MCH and BRD could also still use some work as well.

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Originally Posted by Wyakin

All three ranged are under powered. It needs fixing ASAP. End of

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If we want us ranged to do more damage, our jobs need to be more complex and we need positionals of some sort. Whether it be cast bars for certain skills or potency depending on distance to target, we need something to optimize around. Otherwise our role is just too simple to warrant more DPS than being there for the 1% buff.

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Originally Posted by ForteNightshade

Once again, we can only speculate. They do poke around reddit but I tend to think they mostly stick to their own ideas and only listen to feedback if it fits into their existing design philosophy. Monk is a really stand out in this regard because they've clung to its core design for years despite increasingly negative feedback. Meanwhile, I can't recall a single complaint here or on reddit about Astro's cards yet that got such a massive overhaul. So that's what leads me to think they mostly follow their own ideas.

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AST cards were definitely them finally listening to the top end raid community. As an AST back then, it was really due for a rework because of the nature of DPS buffs. While the method they choose isn't ideal or one I would have guessed, the current iteration is a lot better than the previous one for us.

Overall this expansion, I think they are definitely listening to us top end folks. Maybe they have a better source now? I've noticed a lot of JP top end raiders making an appearance so maybe they were able to setup some kind of communication with the devs. For example, LB cheesing existed since the game's inception and yet it was only fixed when JP speed runners pointed it out to the dev team.

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Originally Posted by Darsien

Counterpoint: Players that are not good enough to enter the endgame are also not good enough to know what "prime" is due to lack of game knowledge and experience. How can a player that struggles to play the game possibly know what would qualify if a job is in its prime or not?

In the end, the question is entirely subjective. You cannot exclude a group of players simply because of your personal opinion of them. Someone saying Monk is in its prime right now is just as valid as someone saying it is not. The same applies to every other job in the game. So no exclusionary statements, eh?

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Im not excluding end game player in my argument but they saying RDM is not at prime because their dps is a little lower than the other caster is bassically ignoring all other factor than DPS, which only people who do savage care and yes i do care about DPS, but look at SMN despite their obertuned DPS their gameplay is just not as smooth as the other caster, SMN prime is at 4.5 not now RDM and BLM on the other hand have a good DPS and smooth a gameplay.

There is a lot of factor and while it maybe subjective DPS is not the only factor and i'm just saying that people have to take that into account... DPS is everything if we are talking about meta though.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

If we want us ranged to do more damage, our jobs need to be more complex and we need positionals of some sort. Whether it be cast bars for certain skills or potency depending on distance to target, we need something to optimize around. Otherwise our role is just too simple to warrant more DPS than being there for the 1% buff.

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While I agree Range lack in complexity to a certain degree. The whole justification around their low DPS has always been free mobility. Alas, the game simply does almost nothing to make use of that. This tier epitomizes it more than ever when despite being severely Melee unfriendly, all four dwarf the Range handily. There is little need for a mobility tax when fight design does not utilize one. If say, Light Rampant could be baited so Melee always get chains, you could use that mechanic as a launching point for their low DPS. But it doesn't. Furthermore, the rotational simplicity is not unique to Range. Red Mage is notoriously cited as one of the easiest jobs in the game. Dragoon isn't exactly screaming at complexity either, having the most straight forward rotation. Even Summoner, for all its complex, has nearly as much free mobility and laughably outperforms all three Range by a country mile.

Range mobility needs to be taken advantage of or the tax is simply arbitrary.

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Originally Posted by Rai_Takara

AST cards were definitely them finally listening to the top end raid community. As an AST back then, it was really due for a rework because of the nature of DPS buffs. While the method they choose isn't ideal or one I would have guessed, the current iteration is a lot better than the previous one for us.

Overall this expansion, I think they are definitely listening to us top end folks. Maybe they have a better source now? I've noticed a lot of JP top end raiders making an appearance so maybe they were able to setup some kind of communication with the devs. For example, LB cheesing existed since the game's inception and yet it was only fixed when JP speed runners pointed it out to the dev team.

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Which isn't working in their favor, if true. Astro (and healers in general) have faced more complaints than ever before. Astro still remains the least played healer; only gaining some ground on Scholar due to the latter's lackluster rDPS. I suppose it's to each their own but I prefer the old system by far even if I acknowledge some of its flaws. Maybe by 6.0 they can iron things out but I can't say this iteration of Astro is a good one. If nothing else though, I'd at least like to see Sleeve Draw addressed before then.

BLM and PLD.
Both got a nice addition to their rotations and it didn't changed compare to SB.

Just the cover of PLD would need a small buff to be useful again.