Geomancer

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

I just keep telling myself that they generally keep class/job coded monsters in dungeons in line with what their roles are in game.

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Honestly a good thought, I can mostly agree with this, as theres nothing to really counter this argument.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Fair, I was thinking only high level.

But this also could mean those spells change at lower levels during a skill rework or purge in an expansion where Geomancer is added. Only issue I can see is that the conjurer class quests are SO tied into what would be considered geomancer lore.... so that would make it tricky.

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Not to mention the impact on Red Mage lore, where Aero and Stone are regarded as white magic.

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Originally Posted by basketofseals

I think GEO is incredibly lame as a concept. You know how in ShB they nerfed a bunch of things in certain job's base kit and then just gave it back to them via traits? GEO feels like doing that, but for literally an entire job.

Taking away WHM elemental abilities just so you can get reintroduced a job that we've already covered thematically. Doesn't that sound kinda lazy? I'd prefer whatever new job we get to explore new territory.

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They weren't taken away... just given new visual effects. Unless you are referring to Stoneskin, which has been gone for a long time now.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

They weren't taken away... just given new visual effects. Unless you are referring to Stoneskin, which has been gone for a long time now.

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Consdiering how iconic elemental spells are in FF, I'd still count that as a loss.

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Originally Posted by Ayer2015

They weren't taken away... just given new visual effects. Unless you are referring to Stoneskin, which has been gone for a long time now.

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They weren't taken away, but do you expect the game to just go on for however many more expansions with no more Stone/Aero/ANY water spells (except for low level sync)?

Eh, I don't agree with Geomancers as just a reskinned White Mage in terms of how it would look. Especially with the decreased use of Wind/Earth (Water has been negligible for ages) and an entirely different gimmick (presumably based around stationary effects or something else) they could make Geomancer's stand out. Given the themes involved there isn't really much in the way of a sensible new healer that isn't likely to step on the existing ones toes to some extent.

Totally going against any reason.

But a Geo tank would be awesome. Basically spend your time building up armor/shield of rock around you, as you keep having it whittled away. Have a weapon that is shifting around, changing form to what you need in the moment.

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Originally Posted by Klaleara

Totally going against any reason.

But a Geo tank would be awesome. Basically spend your time building up armor/shield of rock around you, as you keep having it whittled away. Have a weapon that is shifting around, changing form to what you need in the moment.

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Not that it would ever happen but a Geo tank is the only way I could ever get into tanking probably. xD

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Originally Posted by Klaleara

Totally going against any reason.

But a Geo tank would be awesome. Basically spend your time building up armor/shield of rock around you, as you keep having it whittled away. Have a weapon that is shifting around, changing form to what you need in the moment.

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I would love a Geo tank. But I don't see it happening. DoM is going to get to be healers and DPS. And sadly not even two types of DPS like DoW has.

I think geomancer would be cool to have, but would rather it be a dps class. A bell as a weapon would be interesting, as well as being able to control the weather or terrain. Like being able to make a mini rain cloud, pelt the enemy with hail, grow trees/make tree roots stab monsters, or create a small tornado. It's a little similar to cnj, but just give the class a unique playstyle and change the moveset to look aesthetically different but still look nice.

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Originally Posted by Senn

I think geomancer would be cool to have, but would rather it be a dps class. A bell as a weapon would be interesting, as well as being able to control the weather or terrain. Like being able to make a mini rain cloud, pelt the enemy with hail, grow trees/make tree roots stab monsters, or create a small tornado. It's a little similar to cnj, but just give the class a unique playstyle and change the moveset to look aesthetically different but still look nice.

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I'd be all for a Geomancer as a caster DPS. Utilising wind/earth and especially water as offensive spells.
I'd also be for a Time Mage caster DPS too, it'd be a neat way of reintroducing time magic without stepping on AST's toes as a healer.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

I'd be all for a Geomancer as a caster DPS. Utilising wind/earth and especially water as offensive spells.
I'd also be for a Time Mage caster DPS too, it'd be a neat way of reintroducing time magic without stepping on AST's toes as a healer.

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I could definitely see Time as a Caster. I feel like there are lots of things they could do for DoM that would be fun to explore.

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

They weren't taken away, but do you expect the game to just go on for however many more expansions with no more Stone/Aero/ANY water spells (except for low level sync)?

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Stone and Aero are still in the RDM kit, so they are present in the game

Geomancer's presentation in XIV heavily plays-up their feng shui theme and other small stylistic influences like taoism and qi. If the devs decided to actually create a playable Geomancer, I'd be willing to bet it'd pull more from that theme than simply terrain and topography. There really isn't any reason to get hung-up on them supposedly using the same primary elements as Conjurer does, because I'd suspect the visuals and presentation would differ anyway (also helps that White mage seems to specialize in light/holy-based effects for now).

What is going to set it apart from existing healers (or casters), like anything else would probably fall squarely on some gimmick+new type of job gauge. They seem to want a degree of homogenization in bread-and-butter/utility spells, but beyond that I'd imagine how they design the rest of the job around a feasible (and preferably new) gimmick and resources matters more than "ew, it's using earth, wind and water too." For example, what if the Geomancer's job gauge was a triple trigram-looking chart where performing certain actions/spells filled a certain portion of the trigram (similar to Red mage's gauge), which you could expend for varying effects like a Ninja's mudra system depending on what corners of the gauge were "filled." Or the part of the trigram gauge fills equivalent to what direction the Geomancer was facing when they use select abilities or spells. Heck, give them a ground field AoE ability that varies in effect based on what cardinal direction the Geomancer faces when placing it (Regen? Buff? Mitigation? MP Refresh?) Job mechanics like those would thematically match a job with a feng shui theme.

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Originally Posted by SieyaM

Stone and Aero are still in the RDM kit, so they are present in the game

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Okay Verstone and Veraero. The spells that haven’t exactly gotten any visual upgrades yet. They could or they might not.

So I get what you are saying, but come on... lol Red Mages don’t exactly scream “FFXIV’s premier umbrage element caster”.

https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...job_art_skill/

Someone put up a new take on a Geomancer kit that I think is really interesting! Would be fun to play if we got something like this.

Geomancer lore is added with the new peacock mount in the mogstation via its description.

Pretty sure Geomancer is the next healer. If its a dps class thats fine too but if the next expansion doesnt have a healer then.... well 6.0 will have to shake up the healers quite a bit eh.

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Originally Posted by Derio

Geomancer lore is added with the new peacock mount in the mogstation via its description.

Pretty sure Geomancer is the next healer. If its a dps class thats fine too but if the next expansion doesnt have a healer then.... well 6.0 will have to shake up the healers quite a bit eh.

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I don’t see why there can’t be Geomancer and a healer released...

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Originally Posted by Derio

Geomancer lore is added with the new peacock mount in the mogstation via its description.

Pretty sure Geomancer is the next healer. If its a dps class thats fine too but if the next expansion doesnt have a healer then.... well 6.0 will have to shake up the healers quite a bit eh.

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Oh lord he ya comin!!!

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

I don’t see why there can’t be Geomancer and a healer released...

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There should be a Healer and a Caster coming. But Geomancer theoretically could be either. Or maybe it just doesn't show up at all.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

There should be a Healer and a Caster coming. But Geomancer theoretically could be either. Or maybe it just doesn't show up at all.

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I wouldn’t see why it would come as a healer since the lore we have for them as well as established enemies are all caster.

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

I wouldn’t see why it would come as a healer since the lore we have for them as well as established enemies are all caster.

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The lore we have for them has them compared to Astrologians, and the NPC Geomancer we have was close to being a variant White Mage. As well enemies tend to be... well, offensive, you don't (for good reason) see much in the way of dedicated healers.

I'm not saying it will be a healer. Just that I wouldn't write it off so soon.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

The lore we have for them has them compared to Astrologians, and the NPC Geomancer we have was close to being a variant White Mage. As well enemies tend to be... well, offensive, you don't (for good reason) see much in the way of dedicated healers.

I'm not saying it will be a healer. Just that I wouldn't write it off so soon.

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In this regard, they are compared to AST because they draw power from star(s), and Kyokohu is using placeholder conjurer animations. Enemies tend to be offensive when they are coded to be offensive or the class is! If you look at thaumaturge enemies versus conjurer enemies, the conjurer ones always use Cure/Ronkan Cure.

The lorebook goes more into how Hien's father dispatched groups of Geomancers and shinobi to bring down airships, as well as Ganen learning the school of magic from Tengu. In all of Ganen's story and lore he wasn't said to being Yanxia together by healing his way through the fields. So there is a bit more lore, you just have to pay or it. haha

Also the relation to GEO and AST, Kyo calls Astrologians divination the foil to Geomancers fortune telling. Foil being to contrast...one using the stars and their connection the other using the earthly leylines...not that they're both healing or really much of the sort. The comparison to CNJ is that both use Wind Water and Earth as their primary elemental aethers... The reason he uses CNJ animation is they're tied to the 1.0 weapon he has likely cause Geo was originally meant as CNJ DPS job, like SMN and SCH. Sure you could argue he has a healing spell, but so does a Ninja npc, Monk NPC...and like 4 others...

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Originally Posted by SeikishiYuuki

Also the relation to GEO and AST, Kyo calls Astrologians divination the foil to Geomancers fortune telling. Foil being to contrast...one using the stars and their connection the other using the earthly leylines...not that they're both healing or really much of the sort. The comparison to CNJ is that both use Wind Water and Earth as their primary elemental aethers... The reason he uses CNJ animation is they're tied to the 1.0 weapon he has likely cause Geo was originally meant as CNJ DPS job, like SMN and SCH. Sure you could argue he has a healing spell, but so does a Ninja npc, Monk NPC...and like 4 others...

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I mean, there has been a dedicated healing Ninja in the past (Izayoi), and Monks do have Chakra. But my point is just that they have pointed out connections to other healing jobs. Could they be a Caster? Definitely. My point is that they could be a Healer too. So far nothing rules them out as one.

Whether GEO is a healer or not, I wouldn't be upset if unlocking GEO required getting CNJ to 30. Don't confuse this as a split job like ACN, but rather like ROG needing another class at level 15 to unlock. This way, the lore is there, not needing to be changed but applied in a different way - perhaps as a caster that gets to really make strong use of Wind/Earth/Water magic to be more of a counter to BLM.

For example, leveling CNJ to 30 unlocks that other door in the CNJ guild. The Kugane Geomancers open a school of geomancy in that room. GEO is then unlocked with its own story and lore but piggybacked on CNJs lore. No shared skills, no shared leveling, just two similar schools of magic working together. I can think of several jobs that could benefit from a system like this to see their inclusion in the game (such as ARC being required to unlock BRD but progressing into RNG for those that don't want to play music).

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

I mean, there has been a dedicated healing Ninja in the past (Izayoi), and Monks do have Chakra. But my point is just that they have pointed out connections to other healing jobs. Could they be a Caster? Definitely. My point is that they could be a Healer too. So far nothing rules them out as one.

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He is talking about FFXIV though. In certain missions people like Yugiri get some form of heal to help you along through the quest, not talking about setting the precedent for a dedicated ninja healer. The astro quest lines did talk about how they had some similarities, but nowhere in the game or books compared Geomancer to conjurer, that is purely player talk on the forums. Levava has spent how many expansions now, and Eorzea years around conjurers and white mages, yet she refers to Kyokohu's school of magic as it's own. Not as a Far Eastern Conjurer, and not as an offshoot of Astrologians.

Could they make this the first ever healing Geomancer? Yes. Would it be dumb, also yes.

There a way to make a healer but it going hard to fit 4th without killing 1 of the 3 healers. I mean look tanks they are all viable.But they make WAR less appealing to be one man army. So I guess WHM or SCH will get less appealing threatment on the next expansion to fit the 4th healer.

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Originally Posted by Zarkovitch

There a way to make a healer but it going hard to fit 4th without killing 1 of the 3 healers. I mean look tanks they are all viable.But they make WAR less appealing to be one man army. So I guess WHM or SCH will get less appealing threatment on the next expansion to fit the 4th healer.

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Consider this: Starting from 72, WHM's elemental spells were changed to light spells, it's likely a part of the reason this talk of healer GEO is even hapening, so so it already is happening.

I would be willing to acknowledge Geomancer healer as a slight possibility if the Sai TaiSui monsters in Swallow’s Compass were healer coded. Look at the conjurer guys in Grand Cosmos. They heal. Look at any Thaumaturge enemy in any dungeon from 15-80, they use Thaumaturge abilities. They always keep dungeon version of classes true to their role.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Consider this: Starting from 72, WHM's elemental spells were changed to light spells, it's likely a part of the reason this talk of healer GEO is even hapening, so so it already is happening.

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Why would they take elements from white mage to give to another healer? Healer mains whine enough about homogenization.

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Originally Posted by Morningstar1337

Consider this: Starting from 72, WHM's elemental spells were changed to light spells, it's likely a part of the reason this talk of healer GEO is even hapening, so so it already is happening.

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I mean sure sure, it is distinctly more likely Astro will lose noct sect, its already on life support but wholly less useful than Diurnal and you could take off noct sect and the class would be completely viable and you wouldn't have to even change any abilities.
As to the elemental spells coming of WHM, I doesn't really make sense to rip one healer to make a discount version of them. When they could use those things to make a unique caster DPS and separate distinct themes and tools to make a new healer.

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Originally Posted by SeikishiYuuki

I mean sure sure, it is distinctly more likely Astro will lose noct sect, its already on life support but wholly less useful than Diurnal and you could take off noct sect and the class would be completely viable and you wouldn't have to even change any abilities.
As to the elemental spells coming of WHM, I doesn't really make sense to rip one healer to make a discount version of them. When they could use those things to make a unique caster DPS and separate distinct themes and tools to make a new healer.

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Not to mention the Conjurer evolution to white mage is canon for every white mage in 14 lore, just the WoL. White Mage was holy/light aspected to begin with until Gelmorra and it’s abundance of stone and earth Aether caused the white mages of the city to delve into stone magic. So while our WoL started as a CNJ, it was not like that for the probably WHM. And why the transition from stone/aero/heal the forest to getting stuff like Holy always felt like such a drastic leap when it comes to class identity.

To further what I was saying about aspected monsters and fights.

I am not sure if anyone here has done it, but the final boss of Amdapoor Hard is a good example of a white mage coded monster. Or what you would expect from a white magic user.

Then we have Seiryu in the Four Lords quest line that heavily ties into Yanxian Geomancy. If you go back and do the fight, or watch a youtube video of the extreme version of the fight, you have a Geomancy coded monster. Seiryu is thought to be the "God of Geomancy" in Yanxia and is the diety that Geomancers pray to. The whole fight involves shikigami (Yoshi did say Geo was going to be more onmyouji themed than previous iterations and true to feng shui roots), avoiding Tengu (who are the spirits thought to have taught Ganen Geomancy to begin with), the summoning of giant water elementals akin to the boss in Swallow's Compass, and then the breaking of the stage involving Wind, Water and Earth. You fight on a small island while tornados and gales go on around you, and you are pushed around by waves of snakes. It's also another instance of a prominent lore Geomancer using a sword. Ganen was known as a master swordsman and was never seen without his katana and bell, and Seiryu is wielding a sword throughout the fight. Neither of these famous Geomancers was known as a healer in any way, shape, or form of any game's version of healing.

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Originally Posted by BasicBlake

He is talking about FFXIV though. In certain missions people like Yugiri get some form of heal to help you along through the quest, not talking about setting the precedent for a dedicated ninja healer. The astro quest lines did talk about how they had some similarities, but nowhere in the game or books compared Geomancer to conjurer, that is purely player talk on the forums. Levava has spent how many expansions now, and Eorzea years around conjurers and white mages, yet she refers to Kyokohu's school of magic as it's own. Not as a Far Eastern Conjurer, and not as an offshoot of Astrologians.

Could they make this the first ever healing Geomancer? Yes. Would it be dumb, also yes.

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I never said they were a Far Eastern Conjurer. I'm quite positive it's a separate thing from the rest. My point is simply that there is enough to say "they could be something else". From a more meta standpoint the change of White Mage makes me suspect it as well. And it wouldn't be "dumb" just because you like something else.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

I never said they were a Far Eastern Conjurer. I'm quite positive it's a separate thing from the rest. My point is simply that there is enough to say "they could be something else". From a more meta standpoint the change of White Mage makes me suspect it as well. And it wouldn't be "dumb" just because you like something else.

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Taking away animations from one healer to put it on another healer with the same animations is what I would consider dumb, nothing to do with my own personal bias.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

I never said they were a Far Eastern Conjurer. I'm quite positive it's a separate thing from the rest. My point is simply that there is enough to say "they could be something else". From a more meta standpoint the change of White Mage makes me suspect it as well. And it wouldn't be "dumb" just because you like something else.

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It doesn't make sense to chop one job in half and make it too less unique jobs. There's a ton of lore and in game content to make Geo a unique caster dps is my point. It'd be totally wasted to make it a healer when there's probably a good 2-5 better options for a healer. There aren't a lot of good caster DPS options left and none with as much established in universe that are coded DPS.

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Originally Posted by SeikishiYuuki

It doesn't make sense to chop one job in half and make it too less unique jobs. There's a ton of lore and in game content to make Geo a unique caster dps is my point. It'd be totally wasted to make it a healer when there's probably a good 2-5 better options for a healer. There aren't a lot of good caster DPS options left and none with as much established in universe that are coded DPS.

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There really aren't any other healer options that aren't White Magic related other than Chemist. And of those White Magic related jobs they're either White Mage+ or mixed with Black Magic, neither of which really makes it a "better" healer option than Geomancer. What is better or worse is ultimately subjective, and at least for me I wouldn't consider Chemist as a Healer better than Geomancer.

And none of what I'm proposing is taking the same animations, simply the aesthetics. White Mages changes make sense in this light. Otherwise it just seems somewhat arbitrary.

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Originally Posted by MirronTulaxia

There really aren't any other healer options that aren't White Magic related other than Chemist. And of those White Magic related jobs they're either White Mage+ or mixed with Black Magic, neither of which really makes it a "better" healer option than Geomancer. What is better or worse is ultimately subjective, and at least for me I wouldn't consider Chemist as a Healer better than Geomancer.

And none of what I'm proposing is taking the same animations, simply the aesthetics. White Mages changes make sense in this light. Otherwise it just seems somewhat arbitrary.

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I mean.
Elements are fairly arbitrary in 14. Aesthetics are arbitrary by definition.

Prior to 14 the only consistency with magic was "Black Mage gets Fire, Ice, and Lightning, White Mage gets Holy and Cure." There are as many entries with Aero and Stone classed as Black Magic as there are classed as White Magic, and since they're all just "Magic" damage to a healer (most classes in general, really, aside from BLM and BLU, since only those two treat elements as mechanical differences) the actual choice of elements available to the healer is purely cosmetic.

Meanwhile, there is a logical fallacy in assuming that just because something was "taken away" from one job, it'll go to another job. It could be gone simply because the devs don't want anyone to have it, or at least don't care enough to keep it.

1. I wouldn't say they're arbitrary. Black Mages got the elements they did because of tradition. White Mages (presumably) got the elements they did to contrast Black Mages. They might not be groundbreaking or really of any import beyond tradition, but tradition is as valid a reason as any other in this instance.

2. I would say broadly the consistency with Black and White Magic isn't specific spells so much as the intent behind them. Black Mages have spells to kill enemies faster, White Mages help your party survive.

3. For a Healer I would agree that the difference is pretty much just aesthetics (though even then, they could certainly do something with elements for a Healer, I could come up with something where it's meaningful off the top of my head using Geomancer as a base, and likely other designs).

4. If you'd like to point out what specific logical fallacy it is feel free. Something tells me you're using logical fallacy as stand-in for "saying something I don't agree with".

5. I didn't say that they absolutely would use those elements for another healer, or even another job at all. Merely positing a theory that it would make sense if they did those changes because they had those plans, not saying those plans will happen.

6. In this instance I strongly doubt the developers don't want anyone to have wind/earth/water magic, especially as we already know Blue Mages still have those. Since we know that isn't the case then asking why they made those changes is at least somewhat important to investigate.

7. If you have any other theories on why they made that change that aren't simply "because they felt like it" feel free to throw them out there. So far the only answer you've given is "they don't want anyone to have that" which is not sensible. And yes, as always it could simply be arbitrary, I said as such in that post. All answers could be seemingly arbitrary or lack noteworthy meaning, but as that just squelches conversation without adding anything meaningful it's not really worthwhile to pursue. If that is the case then the answer is already had, so exploring alternative branches is better.

Edit: I'll clarify that last point a bit. Every possible change has a myriad of theoretical reasons behind them. One of those reasons, always, is something along the lines of "because they feel like it/it's arbitrary". That path isn't fruitful. It tells us nothing. There isn't really any evidence you can bring up to support or denounce it, unlike literally every other path. Because of that, to me, it's simply better to explore other possible answers to see what lines up and what doesn't.