What do you guys think is the cause of severe lack of Tank users?

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

What?
*blinks*
Eeeeeh?
That's your arguement? Can't hold hate? In this day and age where 2 aoe skills makes you the lead on hate by a country mile?

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That is one of my arguments, not the main one.
If I can get a few solid hits on them, I will hold aggro no problem. But if there are a gazillion mobs around I might not have time to establish good lead on hate before some peel off - and may not notice if they do due to the crowd.

I also happen to think that big pulls are lousy tactics, and therefore is best avoided lest it become a bad habit.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

That is one of my arguments, not the main one.
If I can get a few solid hits on them, I will hold aggro no problem. But if there are a gazillion mobs around I might not have time to establish good lead on hate before some peel off - and may not notice if they do due to the crowd.

I also happen to think that big pulls are lousy tactics, and therefore is best avoided lest it become a bad habit.

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If you're just spamming AOEs it doesn't matter if you notice or not. If someone somehow gets aggro they'll bring it to you. Or at least they should, if they don't that's not on you.

Big pulls are good so all you're doing by avoiding them is keeping up an actual bad habit. I'm afraid to ask but what even is the reason to consider it "lousy"?

The problem is that healers and dps get on your nerves when you play tank. They all know everything better and start to critize you, especially if you do something else as they are used to.
"Tank the boss over here". "Pull Adds over there" "I have aggro, why do I have aggro?! Aggro everything at one." "Do this, do that." "Complain, bla, bla"

If you play tank these days you need to have a thick fur and as sad as it is, you need to be in the mindset: "I decicde know how this Dungeon / Raid is played, and the rest has to shut up and follow."
And actually that is your role. Lead the party. So if the healers and dps would accept this more and give tanks a bit more space to play in their own style, the role of a tank would be more enjoyable.

So in the end, if the rest adapts more to the pace, speed and playstyle of the tank(s), we would have more people playing tanks. Think a bout it.

PS: I play healer main.

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Originally Posted by MistakeNot

That is one of my arguments, not the main one.
If I can get a few solid hits on them, I will hold aggro no problem. But if there are a gazillion mobs around I might not have time to establish good lead on hate before some peel off - and may not notice if they do due to the crowd.

I also happen to think that big pulls are lousy tactics, and therefore is best avoided lest it become a bad habit.

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If sufficiently geared, less than the largest pull possible tends to be lousy tactics.

Moreover, a single tank AoE usually buffers the next several non-tank AoEs. It's a 10-to-1 ratio, and tank AoEs already have more than enough increased AoE potency to compensate for their lower Attack Power per ilvl.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

That's your arguement? Can't hold hate? In this day and age where 2 aoe skills makes you the lead on hate by a country mile?

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To be fair we can all disagree on whether others pulling for the tank is good or bad, but whatever the reasons, it's still a fact that some players don't tank pug dungeons because they simply dislike dps pulling for them.

The thread is titled "what do you think is the cause for lack of tank users?" and for some people, that's their reason. It's a question with an answer. They don't like not being allowed to set the pace unless they go at full speed with no pauses, so they don't tank. No point saying they're right or wrong, it's just how they feel. Emnity is easy to hold, but tagging mobs that are split far apart between chasing your healer in circles, zipping over to the BLM and mauling your melee all at once because someone sprinted ahead is a pain.

It's amusing that even other tanks are aggressive towards tanks who don't make the biggest pulls. We're chasing our own class away from our role.

It's certainly not the whole reason for lack of tanks, but it a part of it. It's a high responsibility low reward role.

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Originally Posted by MaxDetroit

The problem is that healers and dps get on your nerves when you play tank. They all know everything better and start to critize you, especially if you do something else as they are used to.
"Tank the boss over here". "Pull Adds over there" "I have aggro, why do I have aggro?! Aggro everything at one." "Do this, do that." "Complain, bla, bla"

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You're not exactly wrong there.

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Originally Posted by MaxDetroit

If you play tank these days you need to have a thick fur and as sad as it is, you need to be in the mindset: "I decicde know how this Dungeon / Raid is played, and the rest has to shut up and follow."
And actually that is your role. Lead the party. So if the healers and dps would accept this more and give tanks a bit more space to play in their own style, the role of a tank would be more enjoyable.

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As it should be if you though do try to be nicer about it unless you are new to tanking but one of the other people in the dungeon/raid gives you pointers on how to tank since the game kinda does a poor job at explaining the each of the roles different functions outside of dealing damage(Hall of the Novice needs a total rework)

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Originally Posted by MaxDetroit

So in the end, if the rest adapts more to the pace, speed and playstyle of the tank(s), we would have more people playing tanks. Think a bout it.

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Again, not exactly wrong here

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

To be fair we can all disagree on whether others pulling for the tank is good or bad, but whatever the reasons, it's still a fact that some players don't tank pug dungeons because they simply dislike dps pulling for them.

The thread is titled "what do you think is the cause for lack of tank users?" and for some people, that's their reason. It's a question with an answer. They don't like not being allowed to set the pace unless they go at full speed with no pauses, so they don't tank. No point saying they're right or wrong, it's just how they feel. Emnity is easy to hold, but tagging mobs that are split far apart between chasing your healer in circles, zipping over to the BLM and mauling your melee all at once because someone sprinted ahead is a pain.

It's amusing that even other tanks are aggressive towards tanks who don't make the biggest pulls. We're chasing our own class away from our role.

It's certainly not the whole reason for lack of tanks, but it a part of it. It's a high responsibility low reward role.

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I've had healers pull trash mobs ahead of me; as the tank, so it's not just DPS. As well as healers pulling aggro from their regens as I am trying to do big pulls and then the healers complained about having aggro and I told them the reason why they had aggro was because of their regens and the healer told me that I was a bad tank who didn't know what I was talking about...

So I've had my fair share of bad healers more than bad DPS...

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Originally Posted by SamRF

I've had several tanks get mad when I did this and l've made a post about it before on these forums, in which by far most seem convinced you should never do this as healer because it seems to violate some arbitrary etiquette.

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I don’t understand why some of them get angry. I personally love it when healers do this when I tank.

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

I don’t understand why some of them get angry. I personally love it when healers do this when I tank.

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Same, anything that brings chaos or gets you alert is much appreciated to me cause that's when the game gets most exciting imo, especially considering how stale dungeons are in this game. However I get why some people just want to be most comfortable and take path of least resistance but yeah I think a concious mentality change can get you to break out of that mindset and have more fun, especially when realizing there's usually very little at stake, except your ego perhaps.

Beside risk of prepuller dying (which will be calculated by the healer) there's really no reason for tank to be the first to pull when speaking mob groups. It makes no difference whatsoever when the non tank player would have no problem taking couple of hits and healer takes the responsibility (now that I think about it, it might even be efficient if another player takes the first hits cause it wouldn't need to be healed when tank takes over aggro, idk). I've read somewhere here that it's a leftover etiquette from Vanilla WoW where the first one that pulls takes more Aggro.

Just as a point of reference, if your healers and dps are able to survive mob damage on their own, then a tank is redundant for that content. That's presumably why older games had mobs that would one or two shot squishies. For that matter, I seem to remember Final Coil add spawns making a beeline to yummy healers to devour them in one bite. This comes back to the issue with having trivial mitigation checks and auto-positioning mobs that tank themselves.

Easy or not, if the role isn't needed, you probably won't want to do it.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Same, anything that brings chaos or gets you alert is much appreciated to me cause that's when the game gets most exciting imo, especially considering how stale dungeons are in this game. However I get why some people just want to be most comfortable and take path of least resistance but yeah I think a concious mentality change can get you to break out of that mindset and have more fun, especially when realizing there's usually very little at stake, except your ego perhaps.

Beside risk of prepuller dying (which will be calculated by the healer) there's really no reason for tank to be the first to pull when speaking mob groups. It makes no difference whatsoever when the non tank player would have no problem taking couple of hits and healer takes the responsibility (now that I think about it, it might even be efficient if another player takes the first hits cause it wouldn't need to be healed when tank takes over aggro, idk). I've read somewhere here that it's a leftover etiquette from Vanilla WoW where the first one that pulls takes more Aggro.

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This is total bs dude. Tanks pull first. Please stop this ridiculous argument and if you have your healer pulling for you than your a lazy tank or incompetent one. There are roles for a reason. Bad habits of overgeared dps and heals thinking tank doesn't matter until they do seriously this debate is nonsense.

Let me be very clear. Dps = damage this is your job Heals = keep everyone alive, remove status ailments when possible and rez when needed Tank = pulls mob holds agro and pos mob/boss for rest of group.

If you don't want to do your job unsync, trusts, GC Squad or get an fc/linkshell group to put up with this blatant disrespect/trolling. DO NOT PULL FOR TANK and if tanks are asking you to pull that's not real tank.

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Originally Posted by Jimmymagic

This is total bs dude. Tanks pull first. Please stop this ridiculous argument and if you have your healer pulling for you than your a lazy tank or incompetent one. There are roles for a reason. Bad habits of overgeared dps and heals thinking tank doesn't matter until they do seriously this debate is nonsense.

Let me be very clear. Dps = damage this is your job Heals = keep everyone alive, remove status ailments when possible and rez when needed Tank = pulls mob holds agro and pos mob/boss for rest of group.

If you don't want to do your job unsync, trusts, GC Squad or get an fc/linkshell group to put up with this blatant disrespect/trolling. DO NOT PULL FOR TANK and if tanks are asking you to pull that's not real tank.

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Why though? I get that Tanks will usually be the ones that pull since it makes most sense, but what does it matter when healer decides that group can pull more? I feel like people care too much about etiquette n stuff when it's a game and it doesn't matter, as well as increases efficiency and decrease the risk of healer falling asleep.

Remember healer that fell asleep won't be able to heal you which will perhaps lead to party dying.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Why though? I get that Tanks will usually be the ones that pull since it makes most sense, but what does it matter when healer decides that group can pull more? I feel like people care too much about etiquette n stuff when it's a game and it doesn't matter, as well as increases efficiency and decrease the risk of healer falling asleep.

Remember healer that fell asleep won't be able to heal you which will perhaps lead to party dying.

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Same motto I give to people in raids.

Don't adjust for someone else doing it wrong, because when you inevitably die, it means its both of your faults instead of just theirs.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Same motto I give to people in raids.

Don't adjust for someone else doing it wrong, because when you inevitably die, it means its both of your faults instead of just theirs.

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Nobody will die if the healer knows what they're doing. Only thing that gets hurt is the tank's ego or comfort, meanwhile dps increases for which the dps are thankful.

Honestly I shouldn't get back in this discussion cause have already gone over it extensively in that thread I created about this. It just still baffles me how it's such an issue to some and I shouldn't be surprised anymore after my conclusion in that thread.

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Originally Posted by MaxDetroit

If you play tank these days you need to have a thick fur and as sad as it is, you need to be in the mindset: "I decicde know how this Dungeon / Raid is played, and the rest has to shut up and follow."

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Thick fur, yes absolutely.
That mindset? No. You're part of a team, you're not a leader. Just because you're on the frontline and pulling doesn't mean you indicate how it's going to go down. A good tank is going to be able to adjust based on party needs. Most parties need big pulls.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Nobody will die if the healer knows what they're doing. Only thing that gets hurt is the tank's ego or comfort, meanwhile dps increases for which the dps are thankful.

Honestly I shouldn't get back in this discussion cause have already gone over it extensively in that thread I created about this. It just still baffles me how it's such an issue to some and I shouldn't be surprised anymore after my conclusion in that thread.

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Yeah good luck with a healer taking auto attacks from the boss.
Its one of the responsiblities of a tank to set the tempo of a dungeon or a raid. You don't like it? Then tank. Simple as that. Tanks look at their gear and their healers' gear to then make a series of decisions baised off that information. That is what a good tank does. They dictate the flow of the fight because they are the ones getting hit, and positioning. Everyone will die if a healer dies, but if a tank dies in a raid that doesn't mean the end because you have a second one. A healer dies the other healer will struggle to keep up and recover.

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Originally Posted by Jimmymagic

This is total bs dude. Tanks pull first. Please stop this ridiculous argument and if you have your healer pulling for you than your a lazy tank or incompetent one. There are roles for a reason. Bad habits of overgeared dps and heals thinking tank doesn't matter until they do seriously this debate is nonsense.

Let me be very clear. Dps = damage this is your job Heals = keep everyone alive, remove status ailments when possible and rez when needed Tank = pulls mob holds agro and pos mob/boss for rest of group.

If you don't want to do your job unsync, trusts, GC Squad or get an fc/linkshell group to put up with this blatant disrespect/trolling. DO NOT PULL FOR TANK and if tanks are asking you to pull that's not real tank.

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This is "bs". There is only one duty, and that is to make the run/completion as quick as possible (when also accounting for time lost to deaths/wipes).

Tanks tank because it makes the run faster to do so than to take a 3rd DPS instead. Healers are there because 4 DPS cannot simply burn the boss before one or more die and a healer's dps, even while sufficient to keep everyone up, is greater than the dps that would be dealt if even a single dps were to earlier than half-way through the fight when averaged over the full fight. They are more efficient, taken sparingly, than DPS. If they were not, they would not be there.

That does not mean the duty for tanks and healers stops with just taking threat and mitigating or healing others, respectively. Everyone's purpose for being there is efficiency. Efficiency obliges we take a tank and healer. Efficiency then obliges that the tank pulls, damages, and mitigates and the healer heals and damages in whatever way speeds along the run the most.

We can fall short of being optimal -- it's just a casual dungeon, after all -- but it is no less the expectation for tanks and healers to, say, dps and to deal with the largest pull size reliably manageable given decent (not even optimal, but merely competent) play than for DPS to do so.

And given that life or death will ultimately come down to the healer, by mere fact that their resources are far less finite than the tank's, there is nothing wrong with them noting that the tank is playing under an irrational or uninformed fear and duly compensating. They should pull for a tank that is being needlessly timid, whether on forum-brand "principle", the "muh immersion" factor, or even just underestimating the healer's capabilities.

Just wanna say for those heals/dps who pull for the tank, you could always try communicating first. Saying "I'm pulling because I know we can handle it" is just as rude as a tank saying "You pull it you tank it." Doesn't matter how justified you think you are.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Same motto I give to people in raids.

Don't adjust for someone else doing it wrong, because when you inevitably die, it means its both of your faults instead of just theirs.

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If one is refusing to fix or compensate for bad play and thereby make the run more efficient just because they might get smeared a bit, too, if the tank especially poops the bed, isn't that exactly the excessive fear over etiquette that Sam was talking about?

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Originally Posted by Tulzscha

Just wanna say for those heals/dps who pull for the tank, you could always try communicating first. Saying "I'm pulling because I know we can handle it" is just as rude as a tank saying "You pull it you tank it." Doesn't matter how justified you think you are.

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They both involve neglect over one's role.

The sad thing is, in both cases, it's the tank who's being negligent.

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Originally Posted by BarretOblivion

Yeah good luck with a healer taking auto attacks from the boss.
Its one of the responsiblities of a tank to set the tempo of a dungeon or a raid. You don't like it? Then tank. Simple as that. Tanks look at their gear and their healers' gear to then make a series of decisions baised off that information. That is what a good tank does. They dictate the flow of the fight because they are the ones getting hit, and positioning. Everyone will die if a healer dies, but if a tank dies in a raid that doesn't mean the end because you have a second one. A healer dies the other healer will struggle to keep up and recover.

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Woah there don't pull a straw man on me. Raids or boss fights have nothing to do with that conversation. We're talking about mob pulls here.

And you're right that's what a good tank does. What if your tank doesn't though? You're standing there spamming your AoE dps as healer with your thick gear, seeing tank barely takes a dent while that next delicious mob pull is just one DoT away, you realize how much dps is going to waste, how much potential is lost with those AoEs missing half their value. Meanwhile you can feel your head starting to doze off to sleep as the 1 button spamming is putting you in a trance. You know full well you can tank that set of mobs for bunch of hits or handle the situation if chaos ensues as healer. Do you pull or no?

Of course you don't, because you don't want to hurt the tank their feelings or damage their ego. Just to avoid a conflict. That's the sad reality.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

They both involve neglect over one's role.

The sad thing is, in both cases, it's the tank who's being negligent.

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They're just examples. Point is, don't be an asshole. Use words. There are other people playing this game besides yourself, it's not all about what you want (not you Shurrikhan, general you, lol).

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

If one is refusing to fix or compensate for bad play and thereby make the run more efficient just because they might get smeared a bit, too, if the tank especially poops the bed, isn't that exactly the excessive fear over etiquette that Sam was talking about?

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Kinda. It's hardly perfect, and in dungeons specifically it doesn't usually work because, ironically, an individual player has significantly more potential to actually make a difference for one of those decisions.

In my experience, I lose more time trying to correct course than I do letting them do what they want, as there's less fall back, less talking, and less rage quitting.

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Originally Posted by Tulzscha

Point is, don't be an asshole. Use words.

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I agree with this. You want someone else to make an effort for you ? Then do it as well. Usually just talking things out is enough to make a "bad tank" try big pulls.
If you dont want to make an effort dont expect others to do it for free.

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Originally Posted by Jimmymagic

This is total bs dude. Tanks pull first. Please stop this ridiculous argument and if you have your healer pulling for you than your a lazy tank or incompetent one. There are roles for a reason. Bad habits of overgeared dps and heals thinking tank doesn't matter until they do seriously this debate is nonsense.

Let me be very clear. Dps = damage this is your job Heals = keep everyone alive, remove status ailments when possible and rez when needed Tank = pulls mob holds agro and pos mob/boss for rest of group.

If you don't want to do your job unsync, trusts, GC Squad or get an fc/linkshell group to put up with this blatant disrespect/trolling. DO NOT PULL FOR TANK and if tanks are asking you to pull that's not real tank.

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You’re not me nor are you that healer that provides that extra reach when my sprint wears off. That healer pulls for me when I can’t reach. I usually sprit through the whole dungeon. When I time it wrong the healer usually grabs the far away adds that would take be a bit to walk too. We’re just working together. The healer and I know what we both want and so they usually lend a hand and get a nice shinny COMM from me.I think you misunderstood what it means when healers pull.

On the other hand it adds extra spiciness to the gameplay. As a healer my life is more at risk and so I run to the tank with a challenge for myself. Sometimes the tank is a bit unaware and so I become the tank and healer. As a tank I try to save that healer. It’s really fun. Practice in chaos long enough and it becomes the new norm for the player.

You always hear how scared new players are of tanking. Leave the comfort zone and don’t be afraid to fail. Trying new things grows people. Don’t be afraid to fail when you try new things.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Kinda. It's hardly perfect, and in dungeons specifically it doesn't usually work because, ironically, an individual player has significantly more potential to actually make a difference for one of those decisions.

In my experience, I lose more time trying to correct course than I do letting them do what they want, as there's less fall back, less talking, and less rage quitting.

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That's fair. Pragmatic balance serves best in most things, I guess.

I think most of us are in agreement that a good tank is one who can make large pulls and rotate cooldowns well. New or inexperienced players can be cautious of this, (sometimes it just feels like you take a lot of damage from one pack, but you don't realize the healer is barely being tested and can handle far more, sometimes you try a big pull and a bad healer lets you die and you get abuse) but they are capable of learning with proper guidance.
Generally however, "guidance" revolves around pulling for them or kicking them. This is the one role where you're punted in the deep end. A dps can report you for pushing advice on their dps rotation if they don't want it, or a healer if you insist they do more than spam medica and twiddle their thumbs, but pulling for the tank is absolutely within rules.

Where the community is divided is on whether tanks should be the ones to pull and set the pace, or whether dps/heals should pull for them. It's clear we're divided on it, some tanks do strongly feel the tank should pull. So that answers our question on why there are less tanks, because of a divide in community opinion on how tanking should work.

The question then is whether we're fine with that. Whether we want to set an unwritten rule where other players will pull for a tank who doesn't meet their desired pace and accept the reduction in tank numbers, or whether we want to be more accommodating and teach players if willing but set the rule where tanks pull. Or even leave feedback on getting a dungeon format where mobs will tear a non-tank to pieces in seconds, making the tank a more required role. Unfortunately it's a point I doubt we'll all agree on.

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Originally Posted by Liam_Harper

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I just want to clarify further why I believe healer should be allowed to pull more if they want because I believe those tank's are basing their pull entitlement reasoning on selfish desires which is imo no defensible position in content that relies on teamwork.

How I see it, healer is the one that will have to deal with any problems or excessive damage. When the situation isn't clear, the tank will ask the HEALER if they can handle a bigger pull, not the other way around. A healer won't ask a tank if they can handle a bigger pull because the healer will know based on how much damage they are taking and how much they are capable of healing. What healer does usually is ask the tank to pull more, not ask them if they can handle it because tank doesn't get to decide that.

Responsibility to keep everyone alive in the end is the healer's, so they are imo the only role that may complain about the size of a pull, the others are constantly at mercy of Healer keeping them alive basically. This is why it makes completely no sense to me why you'd get upset at a healer if they decide to pull more. Considering this there's really no good reason why it would not be okay for a healer to see the situation and decide that prepulling for tank will lead to most efficiency. The only arguments I can see for tank to be against this is 1. they won't be as comfortable 2. it breaks their immersion 3 it hurts their ego.

All 3 of these reasons are entirely selfish and don't consider the group's best interest. Meanwhile the healer's decision to prepull increases efficiency and makes the instance progress faster, which is in the whole group's best interest and is the purpose of forming a group with the 3 distinctive roles in the first place.

If the healer prepulling did lead to a wipe, then the healer failed their job and they will take the responsibility for it, only then you may complain imo and perhaps kick them. Before that it's none of your business to determine what's okay in a matter that increases efficiency and doesn't result in deaths.

Just as a sidenote, I'm not speaking out of bias. Healer is most likely my least played role and I'm pretty sure Tank is my most played role for dungeons. I've never mained a Healer for long, almost always Tank or DPS. Right now maining Tank.

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Originally Posted by Minnel

Do you think it's just lack in number of tank jobs or people simply wanting to do more damage? I've noticed that lot of sprouts jumping into FF14 lately, thanks to(?) Corona, decides to start out as a dps and was simply curious.

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Same as with healers: boring, repetitive design. Homogonization in a game like FF14 is a sin and should be avoided...they're ruining job design.

Because you can totally just run dungeons half-asleep and get compliments for it...

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Originally Posted by SamRF

If the healer prepulling did lead to a wipe, then the healer failed their job and they will take the responsibility for it, only then you may complain imo and perhaps kick them. Before that it's none of your business to determine what's okay in a matter that increases efficiency and doesn't result in deaths.

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What you said is only true if you know and/or trust your healer. Some healers won't take responsibility and many players don't want that BS.

[QUOTE=Shurrikhan;5339627]This is "bs". There is only one duty, and that is to make the run/completion as quick as possible (when also accounting for time lost to deaths/wipes).

Tanks tank because it makes the run faster to do so than to take a 3rd DPS instead. Healers are there because 4 DPS cannot simply burn the boss before one or more die and a healer's dps, even while sufficient to keep everyone up, is greater than the dps that would be dealt if even a single dps were to earlier than half-way through the fight when averaged over the full fight. They are more efficient, taken sparingly, than DPS. If they were not, they would not be there.

That does not mean the duty for tanks and healers stops with just taking threat and mitigating or healing others, respectively. Everyone's purpose for being there is efficiency. Efficiency obliges we take a tank and healer. Efficiency then obliges that the tank pulls, damages, and mitigates and the healer heals and damages in whatever way speeds along the run the most.

We can fall short of being optimal -- it's just a casual dungeon, after all -- but it is no less the expectation for tanks and healers to, say, dps and to deal with the largest pull size reliably manageable given decent (not even optimal, but merely competent) play than for DPS to do so.

And given that life or death will ultimately come down to the healer, by mere fact that their resources are far less finite than the tank's, there is nothing wrong with them noting that the tank is playing under an irrational or uninformed fear and duly compensating. They should pull for a tank that is being needlessly timid, whether on forum-brand "principle", the "muh immersion" factor, or even just underestimating the healer's capabilities.[

if you believe you anything you just said is true please stop playing the game. you don't know what you are saying and your time is not more valuable then mine shut the hell up and do your job.

This is a contradiction to all the healers complaining about pally using clemency to do there job. The roles are vey simple. Your argument is NOT efficient when the healer is dead because they pulled not knowing what they are doing. IF any new tanks are on here do not tolerate people like this. Tanks pull> if healer pulls then its BS. I've been playing for awhile try pulling that nonsense on savage and see what happens.

"They should pull for a tank that is being needlessly timid, whether on forum-brand "principle", the "muh immersion" factor, or even just underestimating the healer's capabilities." DO NOT DO THIS

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Originally Posted by SamRF

[snip]

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I had this huge multi-page response on MS Word written up and I said "forget get, lol." So here's my TL;DR

• You're asking a group of people who do not want to get hit on purpose to get hit on purpose for the sake of control and dominance over three other people.
• Tank pulling allowed DPS and Healers to start damaging the mobs while in transit to another group of mobs to get a head start on killing, reducing burden on the healer and tank.
• Excessive damage can also be categorized by having the mobs left alive for too long, leaving the healer and tank depleted of efficient tools thanks to the DPS's damage being low (but we cannot say anything about that). Excessive damage isn't just the tank taking a good amount of damage per hit.
• Healers have more up-front responsibility of survival than the other two roles thanks to SE stripping almost all means of self-survival from those roles. Also, as more mobs die, that responsibility of keeping people alive reduces from healers.
• You want to give healers something else (pulling) for them to take the blame for too? The group of people who feel they get blamed for almost everything?

I play both tanks and healers, by the way. Healer a little bit more this expansion than tank, but about even. So, no bias here.

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Originally Posted by Juzjuzz

What you said is only true if you know and/or trust your healer. Some healers won't take responsibility and many players don't want that BS.

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Basically what I mean is that it would be the healer's fault at that point, so you may blame, complain or kick them then. After they have proven to cause a wipe by prepulling, not before. I think healer's will usually only pull more mobs in faceroll content where tanks are basically redundant anyway (that's when I used to do it) and still tanks get upset.

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Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

I had this huge multi-page response on MS Word written up and I said "forget get, lol." So here's my TL;DR

• You're asking a group of people who do not want to get hit on purpose to get hit on purpose for the sake of control and dominance over three other people.
• Tank pulling allowed DPS and Healers to start damaging the mobs while in transit to another group of mobs to get a head start on killing, reducing burden on the healer and tank.
• Excessive damage can also be categorized by having the mobs left alive for too long, leaving the healer and tank depleted of efficient tools thanks to the DPS's damage being low (but we cannot say anything about that). Excessive damage isn't just the tank taking a good amount of damage per hit.
• Healers have more up-front responsibility of survival than the other two roles thanks to SE stripping almost all means of self-survival from those roles. Also, as more mobs die, that responsibility of keeping people alive reduces from healers.
• You want to give healers something else (pulling) for them to take the blame for too? The group of people who feel they get blamed for almost everything?

I play both tanks and healers, by the way. Healer a little bit more this expansion than tank, but about even. So, no bias here.

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To your first point.. getting hit, be it on purpose or not, is something the healer has to deal with in the end because they are responsible for keeping the party alive.

And the other points, I'm not sure in what way we're at odds. I never said healers should be responsible for all pulling in general, just saying you should not feel offended or think its wrong when an individual healer does decide to pull another mob group. Not something that must be expected from healers in every dungeon run. A right, not a plight.

I think you may have misunderstood me or haven't read the context in which I made that post.

I wonder what it would be like if Square Enix released potions without recasts so that tanks and dps could heal themselves quickly up to full without a healer. And we all know the sheer outrage from developers and players alike at the thought of tanks doing dps that threatens the 'real' damage dealers.

So by that same token, why do we have game design that allows non-tanks to pull mobs without getting instantly smashed into mush? Why do we have bosses that tank themselves? Nobody wants to play a role that lacks impact. Why is this such a difficult concept?

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I wonder what it would be like if Square Enix released potions without recasts so that tanks and dps could heal themselves quickly up to full without a healer. And we all know the sheer outrage from developers and players alike at the thought of tanks doing dps that threatens the 'real' damage dealers.

So by that same token, why do we have game design that allows non-tanks to pull mobs without getting instantly smashed into mush? Why do we have bosses that tank themselves? Nobody wants to play a role that lacks impact. Why is this such a difficult concept?

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Sometimes feels like tanks are only necessary to catch tankbusters. Other than that they're just there to increase efficiency in most content it seems. I agree this shouldn't be the case.

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Originally Posted by Jimmymagic

This is a contradiction to all the healers complaining about pally using clemency to do there job.

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Healers are complaining about clemencydins because those people are wasting time doing something pointless.
In here we are complaining about small pulling tanks because they are wasting time doing something pointless.

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I've been playing for awhile try pulling that nonsense on savage and see what happens.

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What do either of those things have to do with pulling an extra mob for a tank in a dungeon?

If you're a good dungeon tank this doesn't even concern you because you'll just make those pulls yourself in the first place.

I had a healer pull for a tank in Anamnesis this week as all of us kept running and then the tank just stopped short. On the second time the healer just brought the next mobs to him. Nobody died, nobody complained and I'd assume 3 people out of 4 were glad that it happened.

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Sometimes feels like tanks are only necessary to catch tankbusters. Other than that they're just there to increase efficiency in most content it seems. I agree this shouldn't be the case.

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That's not really a tank only thing though. "Sometimes feels like dps are only necessary to beat enrages. Other than that they're just there to increase efficiency in most content it seems."

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Originally Posted by Ramura_Sono

That's not really a tank only thing though. "Sometimes feels like dps are only necessary to beat enrages. Other than that they're just there to increase efficiency in most content it seems."

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So what's the healer equivalent of "Tank are only there for catching tankbuster/DPS are only there for beating enrage timers" then?

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Originally Posted by DRKoftheAzure

So what's the healer equivalent of "Tank are only there for catching tankbuster/DPS are only there for beating enrage timers" then?

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Only there to "Keep hp from hitting 0"

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Originally Posted by SamRF

Sometimes feels like tanks are only necessary to catch tankbusters. Other than that they're just there to increase efficiency in most content it seems. I agree this shouldn't be the case.

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That's not even all that necessary. Most game content only utilises one out of two tanks at any given time, with the other functioning as a wannabe damage dealer (who, let's face it, doesn't deal all that much damage nowadays, and is really just a glorified understudy waiting for their turn to actually pretend to tank something again). So you always have a back-up if one dies. And even in the catastrophic event that both tanks die, the tickle-me autos usually give your healer time to sort things out until a replacement tank can be pulled from the grave.

Efficiency is a really good thing, if you can provide it. Efficiency means that skill impacts performance. For a tank, that would be a situation in which your boss movement and re-positioning determined how well your melee landed positionals or allowed your casters to minimise movement. I pointed this out recently and one response was "b-but *gasp* melee will lose dps if you aren't up to par!" Yeah, but that's kind of what people want in skill based games. Recognition for good performance. A bit of agency, you know? It means that teams will want to have a good tank player on their side, rather than just "any tank player".