SCH need buffs

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

No, you would still use ED to dump excess stacks in this situation. All reducing ED's potency would do is lower the opportunity cost of aetherflow heals and make them more appealing while still keeping its role as an aetherflow dump. Theres also the element of combining it with Ruin II for movement scenarios to offset the damage loss of Ruin II.

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You'd dump excess stacks within Biolysis windows alone (+ 1 with swiftcast) every 30s.
My point still stands that it would still be Broil + Biolysis spam ad nauseam.

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Originally Posted by Bobsmiaw

Totaly agree.
This is what happen when you combine healing and dps into 1 skill or 1 resource.
You either use it for dps and throw away the heal, or keep it for healing and lose dps (WHM Assize and AST star).
In SCH case is worse because most of its healing share the same resource with ED.

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Let me introduce you to GCD heals. 1 GCD, can be used for either DPS or healing. Using a GCD on healing costs DPS.
Aetherflow heals are OGCDs, but they still have an opportunity cost through weaving and ED. Using an AF stack on ED costs DPS.

Having heals with different DPS opportunity costs gives the healing kit some depth. If ED was removed or made to deal no damage, then there would be no point to get rid of excess stacks. All OGCD SCH heals would basically cost the exact same: weaving windows. Wouldn't matter if you used Sacred Soil, Indom, Whispering Dawn or Seraph. Same cost, no depth.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

If not having an aetherflow dump makes the mechanic feel boring and wasteful, but having one that deals damage de-incentivizes using it for its primary purpose of healing. Then if anything the logical solution seems to be making ED cost neutral or flat out removing the damage on it, therefore minimizing the loss of dps while still giving the scholar a use for excess stacks that don't go into healing.

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Primary purpose of healing? As long as there is an ED around with some DPS potency on it it has the dual purpose of dealing damage and healing. Making ED do no damage makes it useless; what's the point of burning AF stacks for just more MP?

I cannot stress enough that Aetherflow heals having a solid DPS opportunity cost is a good thing.
Heals should not all be either OGCD with zero DPS cost (save weaving) or GCD.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

No, you would still use ED to dump excess stacks in this situation. All reducing ED's potency would do is lower the opportunity cost of aetherflow heals and make them more appealing while still keeping its role as an aetherflow dump. Theres also the element of combining it with Ruin II for movement scenarios to offset the damage loss of Ruin II.

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Sorry if this is more of an individual question, but why do you always suggest keeping the SCH DPS toolkit as simplistic (boring) as possible?
I just can't fathom why you'd want this because even if we had the best designed, most synergic healing toolkit we'd still be stuck with DPSing 70%+ of the time.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

Sorry if this is more of an individual question, but why do you always suggest keeping the SCH DPS toolkit as simplistic (boring) as possible?
I just can't fathom why you'd want this because even if we had the best designed, most synergic healing toolkit we'd still be stuck with DPSing 70%+ of the time.

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Because I dont consider juggling a bunch of dots to be an intuitive design. Its needless busywork for the same results as we get now. I'd rather the dps toolkit to be designed in a way that seems to flow into their current core mechanics of resource and cooldown management then "Replace Broil with one button every 18 seconds, replace Broil with another random button every 24 seconds". I'd rather see a system of your dps cycling your resources and rewarding you for managing your resources.

Despite the issues we're complaining about with ED and aetherflow I love it because it's a start of the system I'd love to see and if anything I'd like to see that improved upon with more fae guage interaction.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

Primary purpose of healing? As long as there is an ED around with some DPS potency on it it has the dual purpose of dealing damage and healing. Making ED do no damage makes it useless; what's the point of burning AF stacks for just more MP?

I cannot stress enough that Aetherflow heals having a solid DPS opportunity cost is a good thing.
Heals should not all be either OGCD with zero DPS cost (save weaving) or GCD.

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Here's the thing. I agree. I like that system of scholar. But I'm trying to put myself in the dev's shoes on the matter.

They seem to have removed energy Drain because they wanted to make Aetherflow a healer centric mechanic, but then realized that they needed a dump skill to use up excess stacks. So they implemented Energy Drain back. And while it gives Scholar a healing priority again, People here seem to have issue with this, considering they complain about the existence of the cost. So the solution seems to be either remove the dps component and make it purely an excess dump, or simply reduce the potency to the point using it to heal does not feel as punishing as people are making out to be.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Here's the thing. I agree. I like that system of scholar. But I'm trying to put myself in the dev's shoes on the matter.

They seem to have removed energy Drain because they wanted to make Aetherflow a healer centric mechanic, but then realized that they needed a dump skill to use up excess stacks. So they implemented Energy Drain back. And while it gives Scholar a healing priority again, People here seem to have issue with this, considering they complain about the existence of the cost. So the solution seems to be either remove the dps component and make it purely an excess dump, or simply reduce the potency to the point using it to heal does not feel as punishing as people are making out to be.

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Stating that something is a dps loss isn't the same as complaining about it. Nor does it make SS or other AF heals bad skills.
Yes, it IS a dps loss, that's a simple fact.
But it doesn't have to be a bad thing because as Volkaj stated, it gives the healer kit some depth. Something the healer kits desperately need. It gives you the opportunity to get better, leaves room for optimization and gives you an incentive to learn the fights even better so you can use your AF more effectively. Miscalculations can lead to "ah shit, should've saved that one AF stack" situations and that's fun for most people because getting not even a little bit punished for miscalculating your resources would make the job even more dull.

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Originally Posted by Brandedblade

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Look. Here's my real, honest to god opinion on this. A huge chunk of the people here have no idea what they're talking about.

This thread is about how SCH needs buffs. SCH doesn't need buffs. As Billythepancake said SCH can dish out respectable rDPS and HPS. Plus there's always gonna be someone on the bottom of the totem pole unless you have perfect balance and that just isn't gonna happen.

I spent at least half a dozen posts in another thread trying to explain that you should use CU rather than SS when possible, since the latter has a plain, obvious DPS opportunity cost that the other one does not have. And DPS matters a lot when optimizing healing, since there is so little healing to do.

And the last idea posited here is to remove (or render completely useless) ED. Exactly how it was at the start of ShB, which got reverted after community backlash. Mainly because it rendered the whole Aetherflow management aspect of SCH completely moot.

SCH, heck, all healers, do not need numerical buffs or nerfs. They need significant gameplay improvements.
Having to manage a whole bunch of DoT timers (past SCH) might not be your jam. That's fine. But it is still more engaging gameplay (more buttons to press, more timers to manage). Spamming one nuke for an entire fight is simply not fun.

As for SE's perspective, it is pretty clear that they simply do not care, or do not listen to healers.
Out of all the feedback given prior to SB, the only point that got "fixed" was WHM lilies.

I remember clear feedback threads in SB from new players saying they really loved AST's cards.
Threads pointing out that SCH had a nice, high skill ceiling that was satisfying to reach (as it was OP).
Threads asking for a Selene rework, as Eos was all-around better.
Threads asking for mobility and raid DPS utility for WHM.

All SE had to do for ShB was:
- Fix WHM lilies.
- Eliminate Balance fishing (making Draw only useable in combat + nerfing Balance potency for instance).
- Rework Selene.
- Adjust numerical potencies to balance everything rDPS + HPS wise.

Instead, what we got is what dumb DPS and tanks wanted. More healing tools (which we have no use of), and less DPS tools (which we have a desperate need of).
Because they believe that will make healers heal them out of oneshots mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

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First off, I'm not in the mood to trot out this conspiracy theory that SE doesn't care about healers and only ruined them because tanks and dps complained. I refuse to believe it was that simple and it just makes you look like you want to be a victim. If there is any ignorance or failure on SE's part, it's not "I hate healers and want to see them burn" its "We designed the classes for lower skilled players in mind because we want to have a broad audience."

Secondly, I do agree that healer dps could be more interesting. However, I'm not one who likes the idea of superfluous spells for the sake of having extra buttons to press, I'm more interested in the possibility of healing and dpsing being more cohesive with one another and the gameplay flow having the two elements flow back and forth with each other. WHM has the start of it with their Lillies refunding a portion of the damage they loose gcd healing and SCH has the start of it with Aetherflow and ED.

If sch is gonna be juggling extra dots, for example, I would rather them be cohesive and feed into their healing, such as them generating fae gauge as they tick or when you strike a target afflicted by them with Broil, like we discussed earlier, then to juggle them erratically for again, the mere simple fact of having an extra button to press. To be frank, the only additions I want to see to sch's toolkit would be tools to serve as resource dumps under controlled settings as opposed to random dps spells. Give the spells a clear purpose as rewards for not letting resources overcap without them directly interfering with your main role as a healer.

What I ultimately want to see is a cohesive kit where the two elements flow together and reward the player for managing them. Not "juggle 13 dots and occasionally ogcd heal"

On the topic CU versus SS, it is true that for single large hits CU is sufficient, the issue I had is that CU is strictly superior when SS does more for a smaller cost and that CU only does a portion of its potential when used without incurring a loss.

Honestly I would feel like things would be more balanced if AST's skill floor had lower DPS than the others, without any need to change the performance of the other healers. It's a little alarming that AST dishes out more dps than the others even at lower percentiles. Maybe a change that requires card management to actually be card management, could be an idea to raise the skill floor for card management. That would result in AST being a little lower in lower skill tiers but still top the charts at higher skill tiers.

Also, SE doesn't hate healers, they just don't play healers beyond beginner level. It's been obvious from quite a few skill changes and implementations they've made in the past. Whether or not they've become frustrated due to healer feedback and that initiated some sort of negative feedback loop will be anyone's guess, but they've certainly done a poor job of communicating on the matter. Almost a year in and SCH is still bugged up the wazoo without even as much as an acknowledgement of the issues by the team.

There is no sense of build up for Scholar. You throw your CDs around whenever they are available as the opposite would be a dps loss.

I guess that makes for different and unique gameplay but it lacks the oomph feeling of using Afflatus Misery or Divination.

I wonder if a design similar to SCH's pvp set would change that, where we try and maintain Seraph out as long as possible by using our dps/gcd healing tools as effeciently as possible.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

It's a little alarming that AST dishes out more dps than the others even at lower percentiles.

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Not really. There’s just significantly more Whm and Sch logs in comparison. Almost double compared to Ast if I recall correctly.

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Originally Posted by Bobsmiaw

Totaly agree.
This is what happen when you combine healing and dps into 1 skill or 1 resource.
You either use it for dps and throw away the heal, or keep it for healing and lose dps (WHM Assize and AST star).
In SCH case is worse because most of its healing share the same resource with ED.

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And due to that combination Sch has something called "depth" you know that you AE heals are effective but you want to use them just when its strictly necessary while also keeping Aetherflow always on CD because otherwise you lose dps. All that makes AE and its heals a centric mechanic in the kit because first you want to know when you have to use your AE heals and second you want to plan them to maximize the uses of ED, everything works towards forcing sch to use their full kit and think in terms of that 1 minute cooldown that aetherflow has.

Remove the damage and you'll have 5.0 boring sch where aetherflow was an accesory mechanic, make it neutral and you'll de-incentivize the weaker but cheaper ogcd since they'll have the same cost as the stronger AE heals while also eliminating the importance of having AE on CD.

There is nothing wrong on having different costs and mechanics that can be used to dps or healing, that makes a job fun and gives it "depth" and its not like healers in this expansion have much of any those

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Not really. There’s just significantly more Whm and Sch logs in comparison. Almost double compared to Ast if I recall correctly.

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According to the the thread in Dps roles that Myon posted numbers are like this:

Astrologian 16,236*
White Mage 39,613*
Scholar 32,653*

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Originally Posted by GrimGale

There is no sense of build up for Scholar. You throw your CDs around whenever they are available as the opposite would be a dps loss.

I guess that makes for different and unique gameplay but it lacks the oomph feeling of using Afflatus Misery or Divination.

I wonder if a design similar to SCH's pvp set would change that, where we try and maintain Seraph out as long as possible by using our dps/gcd healing tools as effeciently as possible.

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They dont maintain Seraph anymore. Now its about managing your charges of Lustrate by spending your fae guage on Dissapation. Which there refunds a Lustrate/Indom charge and increase your healing magic potency by 50% for 6 seconds. So essentially what you're doing there is creating a loop of casting Broil (or healing, which now does build fae guage at a slower rate) and healing as much as you can with Lustrate while keeping it buffed and charged with Dissapation everytime you hit 50 gauge.


That being said. I would like sch to have a similar loop. The pvp loop is what's inspired me to have the concept I do.

Agreed. The SCH is a boring mess to play. Casting Broil a thousand times while juggling one dot isn't fun at all; how was it this ridiculous build was pushed into the game in the 1st place--nevermind why its persisted for so long? Who are these people mewling over how/why the job is fine? It's very clearly NOT fine.

Give us back Bane and Miasma 2 at least...

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Originally Posted by Truen

Give us back Bane and Miasma 2 at least...

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Having the spells back without the context that made them interesting and useful is worse than not having them.
Like- What's the point of Bane spreading just 1 DoT when you could Multidotting is just as effective? When SCH had Miasma1 and Bio2 (300 and 350 pot each btw, vs Biolysis' 600), their low potency in comparison to Miasma2 spam made it worth the aetherflow it cost.
And Miasma2's importance came from it having a higher damage than Ruin2 in exchange for melee range and a heftier MP cost. If it was verbatim brought back it would only be a slightly stronger Art of War every 12 seconds.

Needing to apply 2 dots and then Bane to spread it when WHM/AST can just Holy/Gravity in one GCD is one of the main things that put me off SCH/SMN for years. But I do agree there needs to be something more interesting.

Whether or not that needs to be via AoE damage.
For single target, it bugs me that Ruin II is basically useless outside of movement. Not sure a Healer really needs that sort of utility, more of a DPS thing, so a hangover from ACN.
Would be nice if Ruin II could be upgraded into something that would interact with either Broil and/or Art of War.

But I would most like to see both Art of War and Gravity gain some sort of crowd control like Holy.
Stun is probably the most effective form right now (and most disruptive in pulls) so I wouldn't expect it to be that much.
Ideally Gravity should gain a Slow debuff for maybe 6s, and Art of War could be improved if it came with a a damage down debuff and a DoT.
If Art of War was say a 6s Reprisal debuff with a 6s DoT, so three ticks of damage, and then Ruin II had some sort of interaction, then it would be viable to alternate them.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Needing to apply 2 dots and then Bane to spread it when WHM/AST can just Holy/Gravity in one GCD is one of the main things that put me off SCH/SMN for years. But I do agree there needs to be something more interesting.

Whether or not that needs to be via AoE damage.
For single target, it bugs me that Ruin II is basically useless outside of movement. Not sure a Healer really needs that sort of utility, more of a DPS thing, so a hangover from ACN.

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Ruin 2 is also used to weave ogcd actions, so it's used quite a lot on SCH because it has so many of those. Anyway the problem is not aoe damage or even dungeon runs. The problem is single target damage.

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Originally Posted by Lastelli

Ruin 2 is also used to weave ogcd actions, so it's used quite a lot on SCH because it has so many of those. Anyway the problem is not aoe damage or even dungeon runs. The problem is single target damage.

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How about:

Broil II has a 50% chance of proccing 'Broiling Ruin'
Broiling Ruin: Your next Ruin II gains +80 additional potency.

Art of War procs 'Art of Ruin'
Art of Ruin: Your next Ruin II becomes a 120 potency AoE dealing 50% less damage to the 2nd and subsequent targets.
(assuming my earlier suggestion of turning Art of War into a 3-hit DoT, sorry for the confusion)

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

How about:

Broil II has a 50% chance of proccing 'Broiling Ruin'
Broiling Ruin: Your next Ruin II gains +80 additional potency.

Art of War procs 'Art of Ruin'
Art of Ruin: Your next Ruin II becomes a 120 potency AoE dealing 50% less damage to the 2nd and subsequent targets.

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Your broil II proc is nice adds a bit more management to sch without being overbearing and breaking up broil spam every so often.

Your art of war proc however is horrible and would never be used as art of war would be better in every circumstance except range which you already being in melee range to proc makes it moot in most circumstances.
However if it were changed to 200 potency with 75% drop off after 1st it would be a gain on up to 3 targets, neutral on 4, and art of war is better 5+.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

How about:

Broil II has a 50% chance of proccing 'Broiling Ruin'
Broiling Ruin: Your next Ruin II gains +80 additional potency.

Art of War procs 'Art of Ruin'
Art of Ruin: Your next Ruin II becomes a 120 potency AoE dealing 50% less damage to the 2nd and subsequent targets.
(assuming my earlier suggestion of turning Art of War into a 3-hit DoT, sorry for the confusion)

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Broil III is 280 potency, Ruin II is 200 potency.
At equal potency you'd be better off saving the proc for when you need to move or weave, so it wouldn't change the gameplay that much. Less slidecasting mainly.

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Originally Posted by Volkaj

Broil III is 280 potency, Ruin II is 200 potency.
At equal potency you'd be better off saving the proc for when you need to move or weave, so it wouldn't change the gameplay that much. Less slidecasting mainly.

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True enough for when you're running challenging content. But for those cake-walks where you really feel the healer downtime, using it on proc and then filling the space with a free Energy Drain/Aetherflow would make it more engaging.


So for the Art of War interaction, I've come up with another option:

Art of War inflicts targets with 'Tactical Target' effect.
Tactical Target: Lowers damage dealt by 5% and causes target to be struck by any Ruin II spell cast on another target at 75% potency. Duration: 10s. Effect is removed upon use of Ruin II.

Basically, turns Ruin II into a '200 potency + 75% (or 150) on remaining targets' AoE (Compared to AoW's flat 160 potency) when combo'd off of AoW. With the added perk of being able to hit targets even if they move out of range.
Plus the bonus effect of a semi-Reprisal for up to 10s if you need to stop DPSing.
It also mirrors the functionality of Deployment Tactics or Bane in 'spreading' an effect.

The biggest issue with scholar is not their numbers its quality of life. The problem is like it or not NUMBERS wise sch is absolutley the worst at everything. Small or large margin it doesnt matter the numbers speak for themselves. But on top of that sch feels clunky to play Faerie skills cancel eachother out I can literally eat my whispering dawns. Faeries need HUGE quality of life and I think sch will improve with that a lot and also be more fun to play. I should not have to cast my faerie skills that is a stupid change.

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Originally Posted by Whichi

Faeries need HUGE quality of life and I think sch will improve with that a lot and also be more fun to play. I should not have to cast my faerie skills that is a stupid change.

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100%

I want my dot rotations back too; I hate the dps options they've forced onto us.

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Originally Posted by AdamFyi

Not really. There’s just significantly more Whm and Sch logs in comparison. Almost double compared to Ast if I recall correctly.

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A little late to this but erm I'm not sure how the number of logs is relevant to a discussion on the rdps output of AST being higher than that of the other healers. Unless you're suggesting 16k parses doesn't also provide numbers for lower tiered players, but that would be a pretty wild assumption.

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Originally Posted by EaMett

A little late to this but erm I'm not sure how the number of logs is relevant to a discussion on the rdps output of AST being higher than that of the other healers. Unless you're suggesting 16k parses doesn't also provide numbers for lower tiered players, but that would be a pretty wild assumption.

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I think it's because you said it was "alarming".
But despite granting more rDPS, the class is not played that much in comparison (probably because of its gameplay).
It would have been alarming if it both granted huge rDPS and was over represented in the raid scene because of that. But rDPS alone isn't a factor that make it be played more, because players are still seeking for fun/not clucking mechanic.
A lot of player still don't like the current card system or the little/timed heal on AST toolkit and prefer a more straightforward gameplay.

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Originally Posted by Truen

100%

I want my dot rotations back too; I hate the dps options they've forced onto us.

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I miss this so so much. Its actually how my friends got me to play ff14 initially- I wanted to heal, but also feel useful/contribute to dps.
Scholar gave me both dps and healing- it was great! As long as I was smart and managed my resources well, ofc... -sigghh ... I miss that ._.

I miss miasma 2 and Shadowflare. Art of War is the worst of both worlds. Gravity can be casted a far, and Holy stuns and pairs up nicely with Assize. In the AOE department anyways in healing the fairies themselves need a buff. All their meddling trying to be simplistic has made them clunky and lackluster. Give it some power back ffs supposed to be a more brainy offensive healer and they tried to gut it. I maybe out of like thought I’m no healer expert or raider

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Originally Posted by KDSilver

I think it's because you said it was "alarming".
But despite granting more rDPS, the class is not played that much in comparison (probably because of its gameplay).
It would have been alarming if it both granted huge rDPS and was over represented in the raid scene because of that. But rDPS alone isn't a factor that make it be played more, because players are still seeking for fun/not clucking mechanic.
A lot of player still don't like the current card system or the little/timed heal on AST toolkit and prefer a more straightforward gameplay.

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Ah I see! Yeah that does makes sense. My alarming statement was more to do with the balance of classes, but I get what he was getting at now. Thanks

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Originally Posted by Jirah

I miss miasma 2 and Shadowflare. Art of War is the worst of both worlds. Gravity can be casted a far, and Holy stuns and pairs up nicely with Assize. In the AOE department anyways in healing the fairies themselves need a buff. All their meddling trying to be simplistic has made them clunky and lackluster. Give it some power back ffs supposed to be a more brainy offensive healer and they tried to gut it. I maybe out of like thought I’m no healer expert or raider

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Well said. I'm convinced the individuals in charge of healing jobs look at us like 2nd rate citizens and don't give a hoot what we think/say. When the Japanese community revolts and demands a change to the healing jobs, then maybe we'll see something. Square Enix could care less...mark my words, the "Letter from the Producer" will have NOTHING to offer us in terms of gameplay enhancements.

I kinda want separate Aether stacks, offensive and defensive.
Why do we have to give up on healing to use Energy Drain?
I dunno about AST because I am still just at 72 with it and haven't played it since forever but with WHM I don't feel like I have to sacrifice healing to dps, if anything it's the opposite because of the Lily system.

3 Offensive and 3 Defensive Aether stacks would solve that.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I kinda want separate Aether stacks, offensive and defensive.
Why do we have to give up on healing to use Energy Drain?
I dunno about AST because I am still just at 72 with it and haven't played it since forever but with WHM I don't feel like I have to sacrifice healing to dps, if anything it's the opposite because of the Lily system.

3 Offensive and 3 Defensive Aether stacks would solve that.

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I prefer having them share, it gives you a reason to think on how to manage your stacks. They tried making aetherflow defensive only and it flat out just did not work, hence why they gave ED back (though I'm sure they'll still end up trying to take it away again in 6.0). Having defense and offense tied to it gives it a sense of risk and reward, as well as a sense of reward for actually managing your stacks well.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I kinda want separate Aether stacks, offensive and defensive.
Why do we have to give up on healing to use Energy Drain?
I dunno about AST because I am still just at 72 with it and haven't played it since forever but with WHM I don't feel like I have to sacrifice healing to dps, if anything it's the opposite because of the Lily system.

3 Offensive and 3 Defensive Aether stacks would solve that.

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Energy Drain was re-added after ShB's released due to complaints that people had nothing to spend Aether stacks on when no healing was required.
This would be the same situation. When no healing is required those 'defensive stacks' would sit there as a wasted resource.
In addition those 'offensive stacks' would be wasted when capped, forcing you to spend them on dps skills when maxed out, which may conflict with the amount of healing required.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Energy Drain was re-added after ShB's released due to complaints that people had nothing to spend Aether stacks on when no healing was required.
This would be the same situation. When no healing is required those 'defensive stacks' would sit there as a wasted resource.
In addition those 'offensive stacks' would be wasted when capped, forcing you to spend them on dps skills when maxed out, which may conflict with the amount of healing required.

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My problem is just that I have to sacrifice healing for the sake of damage which I don't on WHM and WHM is already stronger on top of that. Quite the opposite healing = more damage on WHM.
I don't think that it's an interesting decision, especially when the healing and damage isn't even that impressive to begin with.
I also don't really see the problem with '' wasted resources '', if anything it'd just incentivize you to use your healing Aether spenders more often instead of sitting on them.

Maybe in dungeons in smaller pulls it'd be a problem but I don't think so in endgame content.
I mean in dungeons I have to throw out Lily's as to not cap out just for the sake of doing something too.

If anything I sorta feel more like it's wasted now when they're tied because it feels like I am just all like '' nothing to do and I've got Aether, okay I gotta spend them somehow ''.
But if they were separate they'd just be more like a DPS cooldown tied to the healing Aether.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

My problem is just that I have to sacrifice healing for the sake of damage which I don't on WHM and WHM is already stronger on top of that. Quite the opposite healing = more damage on WHM.
I don't think that it's an interesting decision, especially when the healing and damage isn't even that impressive to begin with.
I also don't really see the problem with '' wasted resources '', if anything it'd just incentivize you to use your Aether spenders more often instead of sitting on them.

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You absolutely do sacrifice damage for healing on WHM. Misery = 900 potency over 4 GCDs 4 glares = 1200 potency over 4GCDs.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

My problem is just that I have to sacrifice healing for the sake of damage which I don't on WHM and WHM is already stronger on top of that. Quite the opposite healing = more damage on WHM.
I don't think that it's an interesting decision, especially when the healing and damage isn't even that impressive to begin with.
I also don't really see the problem with '' wasted resources '', if anything it'd just incentivize you to use your healing Aether spenders more often instead of sitting on them.

Maybe in dungeons in smaller pulls it'd be a problem but I don't think so in endgame content.
I mean in dungeons I have to throw out Lily's as to not cap out just for the sake of doing it something too.

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Sure, you could just spend the extra Aetherflow it on a Lustrate, but SCH players complained that wasn't interesting enough and too similar to WHM's new kit without the feed-in towards dps (Misery)

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Sure, you could just spend the extra Aetherflow it on a Lustrate, but SCH players complained that wasn't interesting enough and too similar to WHM's new kit without the feed-in towards dps (Misery)

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And most of the time you didn't need the Lustrate, so you were either sitting on Aetherflow stacks, wasting a stack on a healing ability that did nothing or overwriting the stacks with new ones.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

You absolutely do sacrifice damage for healing on WHM. Misery = 900 potency over 4 GCDs 4 glares = 1200 potency over 4GCDs.

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I mean healing is part of your job, and your Lily spenders are strong heals.
Are you just assuming that there is no healing going on at all?

The difference is that you're healing AND building up to Misery ( not to mention Assize which is both at the same time and doesn't cost you anything AND can be weaved in because it's an OGCD ).
But with SCH you have to sacrifice healing power for pretty puny damage.
I find that with the Lily's it just naturally builds up to Misery.

I don't really get why people here are so opposed to just getting some more healing power and not having to sacrifice it for some all things considered pretty low damage OGCD's.
Sure if no one is taking any real damage and you don't have to heal then you may not use all of those 3 stacks until Aetherflow is off cooldown but I really don't see the problem with that.
Maybe if Energy Drain was more impressive it'd feel more impactful but it isn't very powerful, if anything to me it sorta just feels like a band-aid.

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Originally Posted by Seraphor

Sure, you could just spend the extra Aetherflow it on a Lustrate, but SCH players complained that wasn't interesting enough and too similar to WHM's new kit without the feed-in towards dps (Misery)

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Or Sacred Soil.
I dunno, to me it honestly sounds like people are hoarding them lol.
If SCH were still the kings of healer dps then maybe I could see the argument that having you sacrifice something would be necessary.
All that you end up doing is throwing them at Energy Drain, is that really all that fun?
Even with my suggestion you could still have Energy Drain use those defensive stacks once the offensive ones are gone, all that it'd do is give you more to do and give you more Gauge too and it'd simply take those offensive ones first.
And at least it'd be a bit more power.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I mean healing is part of your job, and your Lily spenders are strong heals.
Are you just assuming that there is no healing going on at all?

The difference is that you're healing AND building up to Misery ( not to mention Assize which is both at the same time and doesn't cost you anything AND can be weaved in because it's an OGCD ).
But with SCH you have to sacrifice healing power for pretty puny damage.
I find that with the Lily's it just naturally builds up to Misery.

I don't really get why people here are so opposed to just getting some more healing power and not having to sacrifice it for some all things considered pretty low damage OGCD's.
Sure if no one is taking any real damage and you don't have to heal then you may not use all of those 3 stacks until Aetherflow is off cooldown but I really don't see the problem with that.
Maybe if Energy Drain was more impressive it'd feel more impactful but it isn't very powerful, if anything to me it sorta just feels like a band-aid.
All that you end up doing is throwing them at Energy Drain, is that really all that fun?
Even with my suggestion you could still have Energy Drain use those defensive stacks once the offensive ones are gone, all that it'd do is give you more to do and give you more Gauge too and it'd simply take those offensive ones first.

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I'm against it because I like risk and reward gameplay. Do I risk this energy drain to get more damage + getting more mana or do I save it for an indom? And no, I don't think current SCH is fun, I think it's boring as hell with the changes they've made and have been VERY vocal about it. Taking away what little risk it still has left is a terrible idea.

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Originally Posted by Billythepancake

You absolutely do sacrifice damage for healing on WHM. Misery = 900 potency over 4 GCDs 4 glares = 1200 potency over 4GCDs.

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Bouncing off of this comment to throw a bit more info out.

That's a loss of 25% damage (and 8 weaving slots). The cost of 4 ogcds on SCH is about 80 potency per instance so total of 320 loss in the place of 4 broils = 1120 so a loss of ~29% damage (and potentially 4 weaving slots).
So roughly speaking afflatus skills are meant to work like ogcds when it comes to healing opportunity vs cost of healing (cost in dps). The loss of ED is however a direct loss of 150pot. In our scenario it's times 4 so 600 pot. This means you technically lose a potential 920 pot out of 1120(broils). So a loss of 82% dps (to be clear this is between full broil and 4 stacks for healing).

Of course this is in a vacuum. We haven't even looked at double weaves, organic weaving windows from dots, or taken account of movement and non aetherflow healing ogcds for sch. But this is in part why sch comps will generally have the sch use their stacks for healing only when all other options are unavailable or a solid burst is required.

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Originally Posted by Kolsykol

I don't really get why people here are so opposed to just getting some more healing power and not having to sacrifice it for some all things considered pretty low damage OGCD's.
Sure if no one is taking any real damage and you don't have to heal then you may not use all of those 3 stacks until Aetherflow is off cooldown but I really don't see the problem with that.
Maybe if Energy Drain was more impressive it'd feel more impactful but it isn't very powerful, if anything to me it sorta just feels like a band-aid.

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ED accounts roughly for about 8% of dps on sch. So we're looking at a little under 1k dps. That's significant enough imo. Nothing would make sch even more boring than not being able to gauge risk reward and figure out how to best use your stacks. Especially considering we already barely ever need our stacks for healing anyways.

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Originally Posted by Mhaeric

And most of the time you didn't need the Lustrate, so you were either sitting on Aetherflow stacks, wasting a stack on a healing ability that did nothing or overwriting the stacks with new ones.

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You generally wouldn't even Aetherflow unless you had an open weaving window in bio. In the early days of titania ex and emanation ex, before we got ED back, you would essentially not use AF much if at all. It would always be off cooldown with stacks to spare and the faerie covered most of the healing. Not only that but it totally negated dissipation since you never had any upside to having extra stacks. We complained about many things and ED is the only thing they gave us back. It was for a reason.