Thank you Yoshi for your stance on DPS meters

I don't think the game should have a DPS meter, but mostly because of how the game is balanced and how easy it is to misinterpret raw DPS numbers. I much prefer the current system when it comes to assessing hard DPS numbers.

However, I think the game is currently a bit unfair to DPS. If I make big mistakes tanking or healing, it's pretty obvious I did something wrong, but making DPS mistakes are much less obvious. If a DPS is pulling half of what they should be pulling, how do they even know to reassess their gear/rotation?

I do hope SE implements something to give DPS a better idea of their performance, even if it isn't a raw DPS comparison.

As a 99% player that has played this game for 3 years now trying to be the best that i can be, i can say that nothing will change, YoshiP repeats this same thing every year.

Parsers will continue to be used by every raider that wants to improve themselves while the casual community that hates them will continue to make their own groups.

Things will continue as they were, the OP here is just blowing things out of proportion to fit their own personal agenda.

Whether or not parsers incite toxicity or not is another issue entirely, i personally believe that its not the tools fault but the person themselves that is toxic, the tool shows nothing but data, its what people use that data for that matters, a tool that shows data cant be inherently toxic, its what humans do with it that matters, and any harassment using that tool falls under their harassment policy, the ACT thing is just an extra.

The same thing happened with Arthars, he was toxic towards a player and thats why he got banned, not because he had a tool showing data.

The tool enables toxic behaviour. That's what happens. That's undeniable. It's quite a shame some people just ruin things for others. I completely understand how it can give you pointers on how to improve etc. But people to use it to shame others or just to silently kick them. So banning people for toxic behaviour is just the right thing to do.

tbh regardless of whether they add an official parser or not, the toxicity will still happen as it always has. you just won't see it, cos its done behind people's backs in private discords and chat channels.

It's the XIV way. Smile to your face while sticking a dagger in your back. Ignorance is bliss.

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Originally Posted by 0xReki

It's quite a shame some people just ruin things for others.

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Yes it really sad when 1 or 2 people underperforming and who can't be bother to watch a guide on how to play their jobs are holding 6-7 people back and ruining the run for others.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

YoshiP is a former WoW enthusiast, so no wonder why he is against the DPS meters.

But one thing does not let me go, if they are so against it why are they making savage content so dependent on good DPS then? Smells like elephant big contradiction isnt it? Why design a activity that has a real DPS "timer" in it if they are punishing people for calling out someone for the low dps?
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This is my stance on it. You simply can't have DPS based mechanics with zero way other than pass / fail to measure said dps. Groups need feedback to know how and what they're doing wrong.

As a PS4 player, ya really don't need them. People, clearly, want them. But no player truly needs them.

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Originally Posted by Quor

You're right. They do lead to toxicity, and I am thrilled that you and the team are adamant about keeping a meter out of the game. Thank you for your stalwart position on this matter.

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You mean the stalwart position of "By all means use dps meters, just don't say anything. If Alexya Ultor has low dps, it's fine if you instantly kick them without any input. Difference in playstyle. Asking them or offering advice will get you an instant ban".
If that makes you happy, sure.

This post is just a "we won" bait toward those "nasty elitists" so I won't fuel it further, but I maintain my opinion that at least official dps meters in EX upwards only would be fine.

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Originally Posted by EnigmaticDodo

Legitimately all that you have to do to deal decent/good DPS is press all of your OGCDs the moment they come off cooldown and keep pressing your combos or ranged attacks otherwise. It's not hard to do.

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Not entirely.

The most important thing for dps by far is uptime. That means always be casting/pressing buttons, as you said, but to do it while dodging mechanics. For melee you want to be in melee range as much as possible, for casters you want to move as little as possible. Sounds obvious but this is deceptively difficult, a lot of inexperienced players will think "better to be safe" and run too far and for too long, pausing in their rotation, assuming that dodging attacks is unavoidable so any lost damage can't be helped.
It takes practice, you start learning when you can sneak an extra gcd in, the range of certain aoe, whether you even need to move with that aoe marker, predicting mechanics in advance to save movement, how to utilize gap closers. +2 seconds here and +2 seconds there can add up to 30 seconds over an 8 minute fight, and 30 seconds extra smashing the boss in the face is a ton of damage. It's the difference between grey and purple/orange. A lot of players just don't see that, dead dps does no dps right? You have to dodge stuff. That's something a meter can highlight, but still just dodging isn't enough to be a great dps.

Absolutely nothing will change. Parsers and mods will continue to exist, in places where Square Enix have no power, to be used in-game for the same activities people complain about being toxic. Calling this drawn line as a victory is funny and the arguments against these things like parsers are still the same with no merit or proof. It'll be like always - if a person cannot carry his/her weight he/she WILL be kicked from the party under any other explanation but parser data. You want to play a multiplayer game in team content but you feel you have no obligation to ensure your worth to the team? Please.

Once upon a time, it was normal that people could expect one to perform decently to not be a burden to your team, not prioritizing your own fun (of not being good enough) over 7 other people's fun and time. It used to be admirable to strive to become better and to work as a team, not as a single person plugging your ears and covering your eyes, chanting Yoshi-P's name to avoid criticism (before, actual toxic "feedback, from now on - any kind of feedback).

Now, a mere mention of improvement is looked down upon, because some people cannot take any criticism without feeling assaulted or personally witch-hunted.

Now, we officially can be dead weight and ensure the Party Finder will continue to become even worse, all under the protection of Yoshi-P - in a multiplayer game where a single player can and will bring down the whole party.

What a world we live in.

Things will be changed:

SE will policing social media
All streamers with ACTs will be ban
All you tubers will be ban
All the less intellectuals that post modified NSFW on major social media platform will be ban

Actually, we need to start to be like the Japanese, praise good players by telling them they have a great playstyle. Praise bad players by saying something different like you like their name.

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Things will be changed:

SE will policing social media
All streamers with ACTs will be ban
All you tubers will be ban
All the less intellectuals that post modified NSFW on major social media platform will be ban

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Don't worry, everyone using these things have been warned all around the internet to hide them when publicly streaming, hide your character names and servers on pictures. Nothing will change. :D

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Originally Posted by Divinemights

Things will be changed:

SE will policing social media
All streamers with ACTs will be ban
All you tubers will be ban
All the less intellectuals that post modified NSFW on major social media platform will be ban

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lets be realstic no way are they banning everyone with it or with nsfw mods lol they have so many players that would demand double the staff to look at everyone social media so the only way ppl will get in trouble over any of it is if those post it on the forums or maybe a few ppl on twitch but thats about it lol

people already have them. keeping them out of the official game only keeps them away from ps4 players.

Nothing has changed, those that used 3rd party programs (PC players ) will continue to use and those on console are still sol.
I honestly do get the reasons but also would love a personal parser but alas will never happen even by the time that we get to 10.0 (assuming the game continues that far)
I wish someone could make a app for PS4 :(

His stance didn't change though. This has been the same stance he has taken/said in the past, and all it leads to is these kinds of threads because the super vague "Don't use them, but shh, it's ok if you do secretly, kinda, maybe." doesn't give any dialog to the playerbase, and allows everyone to put words in the devs mouths in an attempt at a "Gotcha'" moment while trying to argue with strangers online.

Guess I'll throw my opinion in since maybe (hopefully) they're keeping up with the forum discourse on this. I'm glad they've decided to do something about third party systems that basically play the fights for you even if removing the ability to set markers mid fight is probably going too far as it had legitimate uses. I hope this is just a temporary move while they implement some sort of system to fix the problem without trampling over everyone else.

As for parsers, I still think the game NEEDS some sort of built in system. It doesn't even need to give exact numbers but just a rank or letter grade, and it should only be for the individual player. Given that they have chosen DPS race phases/fights as their primary mover for top level content it literally makes no sense to not have a proper way for players to judge their own contribution and improve where they can. Put simply, players should not have to go to outside sources to improve their play. This is a completely unnecessary hurdle that actually prevents improvement and leaves a large portion of the player base (aka console players) out in the cold. I know the going argument is that too many players just don't care but I would bet that more players would care if the game itself presented them with a big "C" or "D" grade after they finished an instance.

And I say this as someone who doesn't push top level content and does not run a parser. I'm no top level elite raider and have no interest in being one.

There's that thing with the puppets... But hardly anyone uses it.

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Originally Posted by Bernkastelx

Oh yes this is clearly a better solution oh wait stone sea sky isn't balanced correctly and some classes even in full 470 gear can struggle with clearing it.

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The poster above me was talking about a 3k DPS which is likely in context of doing half to less than half the DPS they should be doing (if we're looking at an average between 7k-15k in an encounter). Telling someone they may want to practice at SSS/Lawns isn't really harassment. Yes they may not clear it, as for reasons posted, but the fact it's gonna get them closer than doing HALF THE DPS he/she should without shaming him/her about a parse.

There's other indicators why a person isn't doing high DPS and pointing out their rotation is not optimal to clear a DPS check is also discussion without calling someone a "Grey parse scrub"

Huton not up a lot? Not using using gear or weapon that one can obtain within reason? There are many ways to discuss under performance without actually doing it in a harassing manner AND without a DPS meter. I'm not saying NOT to use a parse, or stop using ACT. I'm just stating there are reasonable ways to get around it without disclosing you have one to let a player know why one couldn't clear the content.

The point is telling them to practice to get closer to the goal is going to actually give them an eye opener how low they may be performing. Someone getting close to 80%-90% and isn't quite clearing is going to research further or ask someone why they couldn't clear it. But my solution was actually for the really low end players to actually see where they sit if they are really that low in performance.

To outright dismiss the SSS/Lawns dummies is a disservice since there's even a tool to let you calculate how much DPS you did after the instance. Though you can even do it so yourself if you know USE MATH.

So yes, we have a "personal parser". For people complaining that the game is too brainless, it's ironic since you have to use said brain to figure this out.

Is it more cumbersome than a parser that conveniently does this for you?
YES absolutely which is why there is a great appreciation for said tool. I would also like a tool IN GAME that helps with clipping and weaving issues, which is more advanced and helps performance up more - but again the argument is if at least people get the basics of their rotation down a lot less problems would occur in a larger scope of content.

tl;dr there's a way to get people who do very little DPS to see how they perform in game (we're not talking about people that can at least do a majority of their rotation correctly that may be on the brink of beating said dummy).

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Originally Posted by NealSnow

Yet I also feel it's not hard enough to figure out of jobs designed rotation as yes, they all have a design to them. Just cause you can spam ice 4 doesn't mean you should.

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I largely agree with you, but I will note that not everyone can play the 'optimal' rotation. It's not for lack of trying or general skill, they simply have difficulty with it. I'm very much like that with samurai. I have tried, god knows how long I spent at my striking dummy messing with this, but I simply cannot find a keyboard configuration that allows me to mash skills the way I'm supposed to. Every configuration I tried was too uncomfortable and awkward for me to use.

The bulk of my problem being my hands are too small to comfortably reach 8-= and also be able to tab or hit shift/ctrl without taking my other hand off the mouse. It's very frustrating. And the end result is that in order to save my fingers and sanity, I don't run the 'optimal' rotation. I run something CLOSE to it, as close as I can get, but not it exactly. And close means there's a dps difference no matter what I do, though I don't yet know how my damage stacks up to what I 'should' be doing. I don't think it's a particularly large difference all things considered, but it's a factor and always will be.

Just to throw out there that people not doing the intended rotation doesn't always mean they're bad at their jobs or haven't learned. There may be other reasons for things besides inability to read tooltips or look up rotations or ask questions on the Balance Discord, and it wouldn't kill people to remember that.

Of course this position has nothing to do with them just giving up on add-ons because they feel there's no need to provide that QoL improvement to their users.

It's allllllllll toxicity. Even though they're very aware people use DPS parsers/overlays if they're interested in DPS... which then means everyone that cares about DPS in a toxic way is more than likely using it already.

So... what have we accomplished? Having an excuse to not develop an improvement for the game that people buy into, apparently.

I'm always amused by the community's lack of desire for improvements in the game, the only time people get upset is if they're not able to glam female/male specific gear or be a male bunny.

I mean, his stance didn't reveal anything new. Everyone who's been playing this game long enough knows Yoshida's stance on Parsing, or on doing any modifications to the game. He's been very politically correct about it and treating it as a gray area because he knows there is a part of the player base who do use it in a positive manner.


As much as you can argue that "the tools aren't toxic, the data isn't toxic, its the people", so long as the people who can be potentially toxic don't have the data or tools easily available for them to be toxic is infinitely better than having parsers for everyone and seeing drama pop up left and right.


The problem has been the community's. Or are we all forgetting the "skip soar or disband" meme? or how most people just blindly followed META comps without knowing the ropes on why? We don't want to deal with "the bads" but we have plenty of time available to complain about "the bads", instead of, well, finding better ways to explain ourselves and telling them they are not playing as well as they could. Anecdotal evidence aside, if you at least tried it once and they gave you the "you don't pay my sub"/"healers adjust" reply. Then its not on you anymore. But If your method of telling someone to improve is "Why are you bad? Stop being bad?" then we have a whole different issue.

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Originally Posted by Kytrin

And the end result is that in order to save my fingers and sanity, I don't run the 'optimal' rotation. I run something CLOSE to it, as close as I can get, but not it exactly. And close means there's a dps difference no matter what I do, though I don't yet know how my damage stacks up to what I 'should' be doing. I don't think it's a particularly large difference all things considered, but it's a factor and always will be.

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Honestly, that isn't the worst thing in the world. You need to give it a chance and practice it, but if you're finding minor parts of your rotation are losing you more than you gain it can sometimes be better to drop them. For example in SB when Hagakure was a thing, I took it off my hotbar entirely and could still hit orange. You take the 1-2% potential loss but can play much more easily so that you're 10% better than you would be otherwise. ST mouseover macros for healers are another one, it's a tiny loss over the fight but if you heal far more efficiently with no hesitations it works out a gain.

Some rotations are more rigid and can't be altered without big losses, so it takes a little figuring out whether you can fine tune your rotation for personal use. Sam's a little more rigid now Shoha has been buffed. As I mentioned earlier though, the main thing is uptime and APM (actions per minute), getting that down with an almost-right rotation will get you most of the way there.

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Originally Posted by Tlachtga

tbh regardless of whether they add an official parser or not, the toxicity will still happen as it always has. you just won't see it, cos its done behind people's backs in private discords and chat channels.

It's the XIV way. Smile to your face while sticking a dagger in your back. Ignorance is bliss.

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They prefer it that way. Toxicity is not harmful unless it affects a victim. You saying toxic things to your friends about someone else is irrelevant and SE won't bother doing anything about it unless it reaches the target of your toxicity and they then report it to SE.

Having an official parser means they approve of comparisons being made, and people can (maybe unintentionally) be more toxic out in the open when comparisons are made out in the open.

I don't agree with the argument that allowing DPS meters would make the community more toxic tbh.
Those who care about DPS and numbers have already been using DPS meters all this time and I bet hardly anyone has ever noticed this.
What shouldn't be allowed is being a dick to someone about it. Simple as that.

Honestly, I wish they would rethink this whole situation a bit because plenty of people are fine with staying mediocre at best at what they do, yet expect to run extreme and savage modes.
Modes that YoshiP and the team put DPS CHECKS on??? Yet we cannot point out anyone's DPS and we cannot tell them what to do better because 90% of the time it will result in a negative reaction because "no one likes unsolicited advice".

It's such a contradicting situation and it's becoming infuriating to deal with.

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Originally Posted by AmiRose

Those who care about DPS and numbers have already been using DPS meters all this time and I bet hardly anyone has ever noticed this.

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There are probably people who care about DPS, but not enough to break ToS or deal with the "hassle" of installing a third party tool. They would likely use a parser if it was officially supported. There are probably also console players who would use a parser if it was available to them.

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Originally Posted by linay

There are probably people who care about DPS, but not enough to break ToS. They would likely use a parser if it was officially supported. There are probably also console players who would use a parser if it was available to them.

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True, you're right. I just don't see how would that make the community more toxic is what I'm trying to say. What should be/stay against the ToS is being a dick about it.
As long as that stays a bannable offense, there should be no issues in having an official parser available.
If they are so worried about what a parser would do to the community, then just implement it to only activate during extreme/savage/ultimate modes.
Your DPS matters there and people who want to tackle that content just need to face the truth of their performance.

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Originally Posted by AmiRose

True, you're right. I just don't see how would that make the community more toxic is what I'm trying to say. What should be/stay against the ToS is being a dick about it. As long as that stays a bannable offense, there should be no issues in having an official parser available. Like if they are so worried about what a parser would do to the community, then just implement it to only activate during extreme/savage/ultimate modes. It matters there and people who want to tackle that content just need to face the truth of their performance.

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I think it's partly about prevention. If less people are using it, and especially using it in the open, then there would be less chance of toxicity of this kind to occur. Of course, either way, harassment would still be forbidden.

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Originally Posted by linay

I think it's partly about prevention. If less people are using it, and especially using it in the open, then there would be less chance of toxicity of this kind to occur. Of course, either way, harassment would still be forbidden.

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In my opinion, you cannot force fights to have a DPS check and then forbid people from seeing their/others DPS.
How do you know what the problem is when you are not allowed to see/speak about it?
Also, the reason we have access to information about our jobs optimal rotation is due to people parsing this stuff, over and over.
People are only seeing this "negative" side to it, yet all this information wouldn't be out there if it weren't for the right tools.
It's the number one reason as to why people can and know how to improve in the first place.

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Originally Posted by linay

There are probably people who care about DPS, but not enough to break ToS or deal with the "hassle" of installing a third party tool. They would likely use a parser if it was officially supported. There are probably also console players who would use a parser if it was available to them.

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That's pretty much me. I don't care as long as we are clearing, but if we aren't I usually say something around the issue like "I think our overall DPS is low" even if I did know who was the issue and leave a farm or whatever I am doing. Any kind of criticism if reported can land you with a 10 day ban or whatever. Not worth it at all.

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Originally Posted by AmiRose

In my opinion, you cannot force fights to have a DPS check and then forbid people from seeing their/others DPS.
How do you know what the problem is when you are not allowed to see/speak about it?
Also, the reason we have access to information about our jobs optimal rotation is due to people parsing this stuff, over and over.
People are only seeing this "negative" side to it, yet all this information wouldn't be out there if it weren't for the right tools.
It's the number one reason as to why people can and know how to improve in the first place.

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Agreed, it's just tool. Players who actually harass others are the real issue. If someone cannot clear content, even without a tool it is usually clear who it is, the end result would be the same. A breakup of the clear group, or removal of said player.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

If someone cannot clear content, even without a tool it is usually clear who it is

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How? If they are dying over and over and failing mechanics then sure, but how can you tell that someone is butchering their entire rotations and doing less DPS than the healers?

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Originally Posted by AmiRose

How? If they are dying over and over and failing mechanics then sure, but how can you tell that someone is butchering their entire rotations and doing less DPS than the healers?

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Who is failing mechanics, what they are casting (or not ) when, etc. A tool makes it easier, but I have done enough farm parties without a parser to know. Most healers do nothing and just stand there, all it takes is a simple glance. A lot of players are actually just simply being very obvious when doing things wrong. You just (yes) don't know to what extent they are truly failing without the tool. Either way, if you can't clear you can't clear.

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Originally Posted by AmiRose

In my opinion, you cannot force fights to have a DPS check and then forbid people from seeing their/others DPS.
How do you know what the problem is when you are not allowed to see/speak about it?
Also, the reason we have access to information about our jobs optimal rotation is due to people parsing this stuff, over and over.
People are only seeing this "negative" side to it, yet all this information wouldn't be out there if it weren't for the right tools.
It's the number one reason as to why people can and know how to improve in the first place.

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Yes you can.
I have been that way until Blizzard open the forbidden door to allow plugins in their game

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

But one thing does not let me go, if they are so against it why are they making savage content so dependent on good DPS then? Smells like elephant big contradiction isnt it? Why design a activity that has a real DPS "timer" in it if they are punishing people for calling out someone for the low dps?

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Can you point me to some of the savage content you're apparently doing? The game I've been playing has super light DPS checks with very low damage requirements

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Originally Posted by AmiRose

In my opinion, you cannot force fights to have a DPS check and then forbid people from seeing their/others DPS.
How do you know what the problem is when you are not allowed to see/speak about it?
Also, the reason we have access to information about our jobs optimal rotation is due to people parsing this stuff, over and over.
People are only seeing this "negative" side to it, yet all this information wouldn't be out there if it weren't for the right tools.
It's the number one reason as to why people can and know how to improve in the first place.

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That's probably why SE is "fine" with the status quo. SE has made their stance known that they won't have a parser built into the game, but they won't do anything about third party parser unless it causes problem.

How can you tell you're getting better at the game, if the game itself doesn't even allow you to understand your own progress?
Just saying "yay guys we did it gj" at the end of an encounter after spending 2/3 of the fight dead or with a weakness debuff doesn't make you improve. And simply memorizing scripted mechanics doesn't help that much either.

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Originally Posted by linay

That's probably why SE is "fine" with the status quo. SE has made their stance known that they won't have a parser built into the game, but they won't do anything about third party parser unless it causes problem.

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It's a thing of players unable to keep their mouths shut, so to speak, and the mass report mentality for any supposed "slight" that ruins a good thing.

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Originally Posted by DevilsDontFly

How can you tell you're getting better at the game

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If you can beat a fight that you couldn't previously, then you're getting better.

If you beat the fight with less deaths, then you're getting better.

If you beat each phase of the fight with the boss at lower HP, then you're getting better.

If you beat the fight at a faster time, then you're getting better.

If you're more comfortable at beating a fight, then you're getting better.

There are probably other ways to tell if you're getting better, especially if you play with the same people regularly.

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Originally Posted by SturmChurro

It's a thing of players unable to keep their mouths shut, so to speak, and the mass report mentality for any supposed "slight" that ruins a good thing.

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That's the downside of a multiplayer game: the other players. :p

It's almost as though the hostility brought to Yoshi-P and staff from these very forums are proof enough that the NA community does not deserve in game meters. Let alone encouragement to use them for group play.