PLDs: You have Clemency for a reason.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

Semantics. My point still stands DRK has to choose between mitigation and DPS and no other tank has that problem at. all.

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Nor does anyone else have such a ridiculously strong on-demand mitigation tool. It more than makes up for the incredibly few times it might be difficult to predict whether TBN will break but you'd also need what little mitigation it gives.

If the PLD has to use clemency to survive a pull, 1 or more of 4 things could be happening.

The Tanks gear is not good enough
The tank is not rotating cooldowns.
The Healers gear is not good enough
The Healer is not healing as much as they are able.

Not a SINGLE dungeon, pull, or boss requires PLDs to use clemency. If PLDs dont need it in ultimate, they certainly dont need it in a pre-80 dungeon, or any dungeon for that matter.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

A DRK and a GNB would have had passive HP Regeneration and probably wouldn't have gotten that low in the first place, and DRK also has Astral Drain, GNB has Aura.
A WAR has Equilibrium which I hope they were smart enough to properly time. And in a pinch, Thrill of Battle works too, even if for a second or two.

A huge part of PLD's survivability is Clemency and it is in their toolkit for a reason. WAR gets Rampart, and two other skills I can never remember the name of (the one that has counter attacks, and the other that doesn't). GNB and DRK both get HP regens (Souleater and Brutal Shell), along with Rampart and their other defensive skills.

PLD seems like it stands alone in that its main mitigation is a casted self-heal that nobody wants to use because it shares MP and a slot with a DPS spell and of course, we gotta go max DPS all the way, even in a leveling dungeon. How dare a PLD help the healer by using some of their survivability toolkit, right?

The tanks across the board were designed to be reasonably close to each other in survivability, but DRK, WAR, and GNB don't have the problem of having to share resources between mitigation and DPS. The mitigation buttons are oGCD and don't get in the way of your DPS, so those tanks tend to use them on a regular basis.

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I'm sorry, but this is not true.

DRK would not use Soul eater in aoe situations, its a net loss, and even at full ilvl 470, at level 80, it heals for 8000~ HP at most, and that takes 3 GCDs. So that's 2.6k per GCD effective healing - Basically nothing. Brutal Shell isnt nearly as strong.
Aurora is 1200 potency over its full duration, in other words, a single clemency use. Same with Equilibrium. The difference? They can only be used a single time over 90~ seconds, or only about once per pull. It should not be a basis for why they're the same at all, and should not be something for you as a healer to lean on.

All tanks have a similar ammount of cooldowns and i'd actually argue that PLD has more, not including clemency.

PLD - Hallowed, Rampart, Sentinel, Sheltron, Passage of arms, Reprisal. (6 not including Clemency)
DRK - LD, TBN, Rampart, Shadow Wall, Reprisal, Dark mind. (6)
WAR - HG,RI, Rampart, Vengeance, Reprisal, Thrill of battle. (6, not including Equilibrium)
GNB - Super, HOS, Rampart, Nebula, Camo, Reprisal (6, again not including aurora)

So with that in mind...Celemency is an extra tool that is only really designed for extreme emergencies - Not as a necessity. Not once have i been objectively saved from a situation that would result in a KO by Equilibrium or Aurora, and those are instant, if they arent needed to save me, Clemency shouldnt be either. DRK doesnt even have anything similar to it.

Clemency - 1200 potency
Equilibrium - 1200 potency
Aurora - 1200 total potency
DRK - 0 because they have no equivalent skill.

So does that mean if that tank was a DRK, they'd die every time because they didnt use a skill they dont have?

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Originally Posted by LeoLupinos

HUR DUR PLD don't use clemency because healers... BOOMM PALADIN IS DEAD, NICE DPS WHILE DEAD.

JUST USE CLEMENCY, IT'S JUST CASUAL CONTENT!

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Thank you for the input.

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Originally Posted by WhyAmIHere

Semantics. My point still stands DRK has to choose between mitigation and DPS and no other tank has that problem at. all.

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If you're not popping TBN, then you don't deserve the dps that comes with it! Also, WAR indeed has to choose whether to use vengeance for DPS with IR or mitigation for mechanics.

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Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Nor does anyone else have such a ridiculously strong on-demand mitigation tool. It more than makes up for the incredibly few times it might be difficult to predict whether TBN will break but you'd also need what little mitigation it gives.

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Which i even addressed by saying that even IF it doesn't break, congrats you spared your healer 7s of worrying about your health.

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Originally Posted by Hierro

If you're not popping TBN, then you don't deserve the dps that comes with it! Also, WAR indeed has to choose whether to use vengeance for DPS with IR or mitigation for mechanics.

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Inaccurate for the sake of argument. Yes, Vengeance's "spike armor" effect is boosted whilst under the effect of IR. But that is nowhere NEAR the magnitude of "DPS -v- mitigation" as TBN.

Y'all seem to be going hard in the paint on op for no reason. As a tank I utilize every ability I have, but then again; I also tend to not do ridiculous asspulls and stress the healer out (as I play scholar as my second class and understand the stress of a bad tank.) So, idunno. Maybe the example in the first post should learn to tank.

To reply to some people without quoting:

Yeah, I'm sure Recitation is awesome. Too bad I don't have it in Holminster Switch, aye? It's Lv74, the Level Cap for Holminster Switch happens to be Lv72. So yay? Yeah, I'm sure if I did have a guaranteed Critlo every 90 seconds, pulls would be a heck of a lot easier. Seems to me that skill should have been Lv70.

As to the stuff about DRK and TBN? I will admit that since TBN is Lv70 and that I got my DRK up from 69 to 71 on mostly Roulettes, I have not had much experience with TBN quite yet, and I was speaking about my experiences when I last tanked with it in the mid to high 60s.

To the guy claiming I don't play PLD, um, I did say my PLD is 73 and in fact, it was once my main. Yes, I know all tanks get Rampart and Reprisal, obviously, I was talking about buttons that some tanks have, that others don't. I obviously wouldn't be talking about buttons that all tanks have.

As for Clemency or Sheltron being the "Main" mitigation button, I am looking at the sheer mitigation strength of each button. Obviously Sheltron is good, 4 seconds of guaranteed blocking, which is -20% damage on each incoming hit, and that's awesome. It's basically another Rampart, but you can't keep it up full-time obviously as it takes 50 oath each. But either way, Clemency, especially crits, mitigates way more than 4 seconds of -20% damage.

As to my gear, I was *NOT* Level Sync'd in Holminster Switch with Not Upgraded Scaevan gear, with a crafted weapon. But that's irrelevant anyways, as there had been a wipe before that pull, and the tank decided not to cast Clemency when she was <25% for 5+ seconds after receiving two Adlo and a Tactics+Adlo in-between because I had literally nothing else to throw at her other than Fey Union, which I had forgotten in the flustered state of mind I was in.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

As to my gear, I was *NOT* Level Sync'd in Holminster Switch with Not Upgraded Scaevan gear, with a crafted weapon. But that's irrelevant anyways, as there had been a wipe before that pull, and the tank decided not to cast Clemency when she was <25% for 5+ seconds after receiving two Adlo and a Tactics+Adlo in-between because I had literally nothing else to throw at her other than Fey Union, which I had forgotten in the flustered state of mind I was in.

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Personally I think you should take a moment for some self reflection. It sounds an awful lot like you were pretty severely undergeared and wanted a pld to stop their threat and damage rotation to play main healer. Yes, the pld should have been more aware of the situation and probably wasn't the best tank. That said does it really make sense to run to the tank forums and start attacking tanks and specifically plds because you ran into one player who wasn't aware of the situation? When you pass the blame to everyone else and take no responsibility you're not going to make many friends. We love to convince ourselves that we're never the problem but rarely if ever in a bad situation is someone completely blameless. Showing a little humility, rather than constant finger pointing goes a long way.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Yeah, I'm sure Recitation is awesome. Too bad I don't have it in Holminster Switch, aye? It's Lv74, the Level Cap for Holminster Switch happens to be Lv72. So yay? Yeah, I'm sure if I did have a guaranteed Critlo every 90 seconds, pulls would be a heck of a lot easier. Seems to me that skill should have been Lv70.

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As to my gear, I was *NOT* Level Sync'd in Holminster Switch with Not Upgraded Scaevan gear, with a crafted weapon. But that's irrelevant anyways, as there had been a wipe before that pull, and the tank decided not to cast Clemency when she was <25% for 5+ seconds after receiving two Adlo and a Tactics+Adlo in-between because I had literally nothing else to throw at her other than Fey Union, which I had forgotten in the flustered state of mind I was in.

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Holminster is capped at 73, actually, but that's moot. Still doesn't change that there's critical gameplay issues on your end if you are having an issue healing there and others are not.

K, you had regular scaeven head through feet, and i'm assuming accessories and a belt. Also going to assume you had the rakshasa or upgraded rakshasa book.
that should have been more than enough to handle healing Holminster, but yes it would have been easier had you had the upgraded scaeven gear. Holminster is set to 370, and the augmented scaeven would've put you at i400 roughly.
Know that for healers and tanks, gear matters more than if you were on a DPS. Healing output is increased, damage taken is reduced, obvious stuff. If you went into it with less-than-par equipment your skill needs to compensate for any areas your gear cannot cover you in gameplay.
I'd say take some time, farm poetics enough to get upgraded scaeven gear, and maintain decent gear all throughout your leveling process. Also try to remain as calm as you can. I know how it feels to get flustered after a wipe in dungeons as a healer, and yes it sucks. You just gotta be able to evaluate where your play was lacking and adjust accordingly.

Suffice to say: don't give up healing because of one tank that wasn't able to adjust to their party. Don't expect others to cater to you randomly. Accept and learn where you're knowledge is lacking, and strive to improve always. (And just as a tip that I used while leveling: Soil is good but until you get that regen from the trait at 78 keep it in your pocket for if you see the tank isn't mitigating enough/at all. Lustrate is good. Also spamming Adlo will make you OOM so fast, and Physick does cast faster than it. Until you're comfortable with all of your kit don't forget it exists. Just my 2 cents on how I got through learning SCH.)

I use Clemency religiously. Some healer like it, and some healers complain. I don't care either way. I've solo finished the remainder life percentage on many bosses thanks to Clemency alone. This is a major reason why you will never see me tanking outside of Paladin.

I'm not sure if everyone commenting here has even played tank or tried Pugging not with their friend on VC. I've leveled all my tanks and healers to 80 and everytime Holm appears on leveling roulette you need to gauge the healer before you pull. This is the first dg of ShB so there is no telling the quality of players you'll get, dps or healer, so I always check with the first pull. If I had to use all my CDs for the first pull, then it is not going to be wall to wall for the next pull.

It is definitely not easy to heal wall to wall in this dg especially if you are not WHM. AST had been buffed abit so its gotten better but prior to the buff it is going to wipe with pugs 5 times out of 10 on wall to wall pulls and the double packs with slow gremlins. SCH is the worst because they can't keep you up at all with how little the fairy heals and even spamming adlo you'll oom so you def can't chain pull the next pack.

This is strictly for Holminster Switch because you'll have bad gear synced down and you get unsynced players due to it being a leveling dg. If you are talking about expert roulettes then wall to wall is easy as pie. First check if your healer is a WHM, then check if they are synced, then check if they are full Augmented Scaeven.

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Originally Posted by Karious

Y'all seem to be going hard in the paint on op for no reason. As a tank I utilize every ability I have, but then again; I also tend to not do ridiculous asspulls and stress the healer out (as I play scholar as my second class and understand the stress of a bad tank.) So, idunno. Maybe the example in the first post should learn to tank.

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Because its a really bad habbit that will only hurt PLD and never under any circumstances PLD should not be asked to use clemency it is a complete waste.

Paladins magic rotation makes up for majority of his total damage in dungeons, holy circle making first place in the grand scheme of things for dps, with confiteur it does over 30% of total dps on PLD.
Clemency without Requiecast is healing only 20% of PLD total HP this amount is less than 1 auto attack rotation of a pull, where healer single spells could heal for much more than that. Using clemency on PLD you are hurting your rotation, because PLD is making just enough MP to let requietcast to proc everytime its up and pld should always start from 100% MP since its additional boosted spell in the window.
Healing only job is not hard especially with a tank that knows what to do and according to the OP saying the tank used Hallowed Ground somewhere before 1 boss clearly shows this tank was experienced player who knew how to run this specific dungeon, proccing hallowed ground to give some time for healer to prepare for big damage is what experienced PLD should do in this dungeon with this one large pull. But you never know unless you see the log which does not exist so its just pointless play of guessing what really happened. What i know for sure is PLD doesnt need to use clemency to keep himself up, thats it.

OP should just let it go, it was one dungeon, we all had that one dungeon being bad, people learn on the mistakes you know, maybe that PLD didnt turn his CD, who knows.

There seem to be a number of somewhat extreme sides here, but there are also a lot of valid points as well. For context, I main RDM, but fully enjoy and as a close second play my DRK. I've also leveled WHM to 80, but healing is currently where I feel least comfortable, probably because I was also playing the "barely adequate gear" game while leveling it up from 70-80. So, I know how it is on both tank and healer side of this dungeon, and know how it is with full Scaevan healing for it as well.

That said, some main takeaways for the tank side of things in regards to this particular situation:
- If your healer isn't synced/capped with good gear, you simply don't do that triple pull at the start. The bears are not fun, and if I'm remembering right, you have that big pack of little scorpions at the end, which is enough to deal with on their own most of the time. If all pieces aren't perfectly in place, a wall to wall off the bat is fairly unreasonable in most Duty Finder parties.
- If Clemency will save you a wipe, especially when there has clearly been difficulty prior in big pulls, just use it. Whether or not you should have to generally doesn't matter, because a mistake or mis-estimate was made. Roll with it. You have the skill, might as well use it when it's needed.

Some takeaways for the healer side:
- As someone who had to struggle through some seriously bad tanks during leveling in ShB for my WHM, it is absolutely not the responsibility of the tank or anyone else to babysit the healer and know when everything is or isn't on cooldown. An experienced tank who knows healing classes well may be able to keep track of that, but most of us aren't going to know the ins and outs of every healer. My SMN/SCH are only at 41, so I'm fully unacquainted with the intricacies of SCH, and don't see the II icon as meaning that one JUST used Aetherflow. At the low levels of play I have on them, that simply means I have two stacks, and I was often able to always have stacks ready to use when I needed. Keeping in mind that not everyone is as familiar with your class as you are is important. Tanks have plenty to keep track of as well, and "did Aetherflow get cast long enough ago to have it up again?" isn't really something you should expect a Duty Finder Tank to mentally tally. Savage and Ultimate? Sure, elevated play. But Leveling Roulette? Not so much.
- Sprint is not only apparently standard for tanks now, but pretty well expected. It's a bit new to me too, since it wasn't as big a deal in SB when I was tanking, but now it is generally expected that if you're pulling more than one pack, you sprint. It reduces damage taken because tank is out of enemy melee range, and allows the pack to settle while the DPS catches up. Likewise, now, it is pretty much expected that if the tank sprints, so doth the healer. Is it more stressful? It can be, especially if you're undergeared. But there are good reasons for it, so this part you will likely have to get used to.

Overall, it's good to remember that gear is huge for Tanks and Healers, so this will get easier as you have more level appropriate gear, as well as better skills. However, you really can't expect others to keep track of your cooldowns. Did you keep track of when all of their mitigation was on or off cooldown? If so, great for you, but their stuff is also persisting icons that you see for awhile, whereas instant casts are harder to keep track of if you don't see them. I don't when I tank; I just make sure I spread out my cooldowns and slow it down if the healer seems to be having issues (which is different than letting me get low before popping a big heal). This situation was a combination of a lot of crappy things on both ends, maybe even on all if the DPS were taking too long, which is another potential factor in stressful healing dungeons. The only real thing that could have potentially averted this was communication, which seems to not have happened from your post. No "can you do smaller pulls please?", no "my CD are all gone, gotta go light next pull", nothing. I've even, as a tank, notified my party that the next set would be singles because I was out of CDs. It can solve a TON of problems to simply ask/request/inform your party of things.

Also to add to what others have said already, if you are going to die then its better to use Clemency than to get extra dps from a skill you don't have (confiteur and instant cast from Requiecast) and if you wipe all you dps is gone due to the mobs resetting so its all pointless.

Basically this thread is about tanks dying when they could've been saved if they chose to sacrifice their personal damage for saving the run and also the "All tanks and healers can handle all wall to wall pulls at all levels in all dungeons at all times or you are not playing healer properly" mentality.

Unrelated note: Also not sure if some PLD don't know that before they get their instant cast trait they can't block/parry during their magic rotation because they are casting so they are taking more damage and nullifying their own shelltron.

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

Also to add to what others have said already, if you are going to die then its better to use Clemency than to get extra dps from a skill you don't have (confiteur and instant cast from Requiecast) and if you wipe all you dps is gone due to the mobs resetting so its all pointless.

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This is actually somewhat inaccurate, in some cases, mobs may be in fact close to dead, if you're in req spamming Holy circle, you may knock off a few mobs before a wipe, making the next go around a little less stressful.

Also on a couple of side notes to other comments, why do people seemingly make everything sound so doom and gloom if you wipe, like seriously it's kinda sad. Wipes happen, it's part of the game.

I will also point out, people talking about syncing down and some such, but it was very common in all the new levelling dungeons for tanks to pull wall to wall, it's not something that has recently become a thing, and especially in Holm which is no exception. So using syncing as an excuse is pretty weak for being unable to handle a pull. Gear and skill are probably the two most important factors as a few people have mentioned.

I'll be perfectly honest, unless a healer specifically requests lesser packs I will go wall to wall, because using a single pack is probably the worst way to guage, because some dps will be like that it and end up single targetting because it ain't worth AoEing, and thus taking longer than mass pulling, and use up resources inefficiently.

And hardcore raiders can't fathom why everyone else calls them toxic, or worse for that matter. The talk of dps lose in a fucking lvling dungeon is just ridiculous. Reminds me of people who freak out if a tanks near death and you just use 1 vercure to make sure the healer gets their heal off.

If in a dungeon you wanna still play like it's savage fine, do your best but remember this is an online game where gear is importent. I was sch doing do a castle, I was not bis cause I was just on a lvling spree so using just dungeon gear. I told the tank this yet he kept claiming "I play sch I know what it's capable of" yes as do I, however I probably was meeting just minimum requirements so...

And as a bonus I main tanks and I'm actually kind enough to ask the healer if they can do big or small, because it's polite to ask. Don't have to but it costs nothing to be a decent human being to another, does it?

So OP, don't worry too much about these peeps giving you a hard time. They say wanting a tank to slow down imposes on that playstyle, but it can so both ways. Expecting big pulls is also imposing on another, just because big pulls are a thing, doesn't mean that's how the dungeon is designed to be ran as the correct way. Both are acceptable.

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

This is actually somewhat inaccurate, in some cases, mobs may be in fact close to dead, if you're in req spamming Holy circle, you may knock off a few mobs before a wipe, making the next go around a little less stressful.

Also on a couple of side notes to other comments, why do people seemingly make everything sound so doom and gloom if you wipe, like seriously it's kinda sad. Wipes happen, it's part of the game.

I will also point out, people talking about syncing down and some such, but it was very common in all the new levelling dungeons for tanks to pull wall to wall, it's not something that has recently become a thing, and especially in Holm which is no exception. So using syncing as an excuse is pretty weak for being unable to handle a pull. Gear and skill are probably the two most important factors as a few people have mentioned.

I'll be perfectly honest, unless a healer specifically requests lesser packs I will go wall to wall, because using a single pack is probably the worst way to guage, because some dps will be like that it and end up single targetting because it ain't worth AoEing, and thus taking longer than mass pulling, and use up resources inefficiently.

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I think it is pretty accurate because I said if you are going to die. If you are going to die then you definitely aint going the kill the mobs fast enough. I am certain that one clemency will have a higher chance of keeping you alive than 1 holy circle in most I am about to die situations.

Also all of my points are strictly about Holm Switch as per this thread.

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Originally Posted by SleepyNeko

I think it is pretty accurate because I said if you are going to die. If you are going to die then you definitely aint going the kill the mobs fast enough. I am certain that one clemency will have a higher chance of keeping you alive than 1 holy circle in most I am about to die situations.

Also all of my points are strictly about Holm Switch as per this thread.

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Not really accurate tbh, I've been in quite a few instances in my years of playing where it was a "yup we're gonna wipe" scenario, and some adds not all, were low enough to finish off before we wiped.

1 Clemency cast is probably not gonna help that much in the long run, if you end up in the situation to begin with where you need it, it's probably gonna happen again in that instance. Usually means the tank isn't using their CDs correctly, or secondly, under-geared, thirdly, the healer is lacking in skill, or fourthly, DPS is lacking and causing pulls to take longer than they should. It's heavily likely that resources have worn thin that it's just not that recoverable, and arguably better to take out low hp mobs so you have less on the next go around. While also having the benefit of CDs being reset as a positive if you do wipe.

And every point I made in my previous post can be applied directly to holm switch, but can also be applied to other dungeons in general, so your last point is moot.

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Originally Posted by NealSnow

And hardcore raiders can't fathom why everyone else calls them toxic, or worse for that matter. The talk of dps lose in a fucking lvling dungeon is just ridiculous. Reminds me of people who freak out if a tanks near death and you just use 1 vercure to make sure the healer gets their heal off.

If in a dungeon you wanna still play like it's savage fine, do your best but remember this is an online game where gear is importent. I was sch doing do a castle, I was not bis cause I was just on a lvling spree so using just dungeon gear. I told the tank this yet he kept claiming "I play sch I know what it's capable of" yes as do I, however I probably was meeting just minimum requirements so...

And as a bonus I main tanks and I'm actually kind enough to ask the healer if they can do big or small, because it's polite to ask. Don't have to but it costs nothing to be a decent human being to another, does it?

So OP, don't worry too much about these peeps giving you a hard time. They say wanting a tank to slow down imposes on that playstyle, but it can so both ways. Expecting big pulls is also imposing on another, just because big pulls are a thing, doesn't mean that's how the dungeon is designed to be ran as the correct way. Both are acceptable.

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I mean nothing toxic has been said, there has been some critical discussion of OP's account of the matter, and a general consensus, that you shouldn't expect a paladin to use clemency to prevent a wipe.

And to take from the casual player base and their in general more toxic natured responses, "you don't pay my sub".

Eh, Clemency heals a pretty large chunk of HP. If it crits, it's a rather large portion of their health, nearly half their health, and it just might keep them alive until the next Aetherflow/Essential Dignity/Solace.

Aetherflow is 60 seconds.

If a PLD gets down to like 10-20% of their HP left and dumps a Clemency while the healer is chain-casting Physick or Adlo or whatever, there's a chance that Aetherflow is within 10 seconds of coming up. If Aetherflow comes off cooldown before the PLD drops dead, that's an Excog and 2 Lustrates which should last the rest of the pull until the DPS finishes the rest of the mobs off, easy.

If it's an AST, ED is even shorter, and/or it allows for more Benefic II spam to help bridge the gap if something is going wrong, and/or buy more time for the DPS to finish a mob or two off which drastically reduces the amount of damage the PLD is taking.

Or in case of a WHM, every 30 (or is it 45? I haven't played WHM in awhile) seconds is a new flower and a new flower is a free Cure II. Or maybe Tetra would come off of cooldown, which is another free Cure II.

The point is, one Clemency can buy you several seconds, and several seconds is a LOT of time when it comes to healer abilities coming off of cooldown which could save a wipe.

There's really no reason to go "oh well I'm gonna die I'm not even gonna try to save myself". It just seems so stupid. At least try?

Clemency will generally buy another GCD.

Crit Req clemencies will buy about 3.

The Tank has to be dealing as much damage as the two DPS combined to justify using Holy Circle instead of Clemency if Clemency will keep them alive, no matter who's fault it is that they're in the danger zone to start with.

That's if you can get a cast of clemency off in time, if you let the paladin get down to 10-20%, it's pretty much too little too late and something has gone wrong if you're out of oGCDs.

One thing you should NEVER rely on is a crit, but sure if it crits you'll probably live, but if it's a standard clemency, it can still be pretty tight, it heals in around maybe 20% on a high roll outside of req as a non crit. That's not always gonna save you from dying, I am speaking from experience.

I am well aware Aetherflow is 60 seconds, I'm also acutely aware that you made no mention of making use of Dissipation for extra stacks + healing boost in blaming the PLD for not using Clemency. Also did you make use of Fey Union or faerie actions like Fey Illumination or Whispering Dawn, chances are you missed out on using those as do most commonly do while leveling in my experience.

AST I found slightly more challenging before it got any sort of buff to it's healing, but still manageable if the tank used cooldowns, it was pretty rough if they didn't. And if you need a PLD to Clemency with a WHM in the party, then god damn that's a bad WHM,

I'm of the approach that making use of Clemency in these scenarios, coddles healers and doesn't help push them to learn and get better, much in the same way baby pulls don't push them to learn. SCH is more than capable of handling big pulls in holm, especially if the tank makes full use of his defensive cooldowns. This whole matter is the equivalent of asking a healer to take a tankbuster for the tank instead, because they ran out of cooldowns to use.

I'll be completely honest, I never really pay much attention to my HP bar when I tank, I don't really need to, the only person that concerns themselves with my hp is the healer(s), because that is their primary role in a party and I trust that they will keep me alive. I cycle my cooldowns, and rarely have a problem, there is outlier events when you have people that shock you they made it this far into the game and not found some common sense along the way.

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Originally Posted by Maeka

Eh, Clemency heals a pretty large chunk of HP. If it crits, it's a rather large portion of their health, nearly half their health, and it just might keep them alive until the next Aetherflow/Essential Dignity/Solace.

Aetherflow is 60 seconds.

If a PLD gets down to like 10-20% of their HP left and dumps a Clemency while the healer is chain-casting Physick or Adlo or whatever, there's a chance that Aetherflow is within 10 seconds of coming up. If Aetherflow comes off cooldown before the PLD drops dead, that's an Excog and 2 Lustrates which should last the rest of the pull until the DPS finishes the rest of the mobs off, easy.

If it's an AST, ED is even shorter, and/or it allows for more Benefic II spam to help bridge the gap if something is going wrong, and/or buy more time for the DPS to finish a mob or two off which drastically reduces the amount of damage the PLD is taking.

Or in case of a WHM, every 30 (or is it 45? I haven't played WHM in awhile) seconds is a new flower and a new flower is a free Cure II. Or maybe Tetra would come off of cooldown, which is another free Cure II.

The point is, one Clemency can buy you several seconds, and several seconds is a LOT of time when it comes to healer abilities coming off of cooldown which could save a wipe.

There's really no reason to go "oh well I'm gonna die I'm not even gonna try to save myself". It just seems so stupid. At least try?

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You were talking about Holmester switch, the lvl 71 dungeon? I've leveled 2 healers through that - SCH and WHM, and i was always sitting on abilities and spent most of my time in trash pulls aoeing - These were wall to wall pulls. Sounds like a combination of a tank not using their cooldowns, and you being a bit lower on the gear side. You should never have to use ALL your cooldowns in a single trash pull outside of that one pull near the start of Mt Gulg, maybe.

Having a bad tank in a run shouldnt be basis for tanks to have to use clemency however, that's just silly. Clemency isnt needed if the PLD uses their cooldowns correctly - You may only need to heal them 4-6 times per wall to wall pull if they do and both your gear is up to date.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by AmeliaVerves

Sacred Soil is rly underwhelming for dungeon pulls, you get more value from that AF stack when keepig it for Lustrate, just saying. :v


I don't rly have a lot to say but: both parties did mistakes imo. You could have asked the tank to slow down and the tank was probably wrong to keep pushing after your initial wipe, so a lack of communication on both ends, probably?
PLDs shouldnt need to Clemency per se in regular dungeons tho and you shouldnt really expect ppl to adjust on the fly or at all, bc, well, it's DF and you meet all kinds of ppl.

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Sorry for replying so late, after seeing your post I had to add to this.

If you are specifically talking about dungeons under level 78 sync, then yeah sacred soil is really lack luster. I agree with you 100% with saving it for lustrate.

However, if you are talking about all dungeons then I disagree with you when you unlock the +Enhanced Sacred Soil at level 78. The heal provided by Sacred Soil heals more then a Lustrate assuming the person is standing in the circle for the entire duration and then you factor in the damage reduction. It's an absolutely amazing spell once you get the enhanced version of it. So much so I've seen WHM's and AST's call for nerfs to it in the healer forums.

Edit: Just looked it up and +Enhanced Sacred Soil is actually a 500 potency heal ticked 5 times. While Lustrate is a 600 potency heal. I was wrong on SS being a stronger heal then Lustrate. But, my point still stands that SS > Lustrate once you hit 78 just because of the dmg reduction and the fact that it's AOE. You probably already know this though, because your comment was most likely directed to the fact that the OP was in a level 72 or 73? synced dungeon.

We do but any reason to actually use it seems to be "You are currently trying to fix a mistake, willingly losing DPS for no reason, or panicking".

As a SCH healer that liberally uses Dissipation on gung-ho PLD players, I have never once needed them to cast Clemency, good use of cooldowns makes it near useless in leveling dungeons.

It's great in emergencies, but IMO, JUST in emergencies if the healer is keeping up and the tank is spacing their CDs.

did you try party chat that allow you kindly try asking the tank to slow down?

Your gear while its under the requirement to enter the dungeon is not what most people expect you to use, asking a tank to use clemency because of healer dont bother to upgrade their gear is quite unfair... and 25% hp is quite suffice in most tank eye for a healer to heal using a few gdc, which should out heal most packs (except the tank is outgear or eat some Aoe)

This entire thread falls under "but my parse tho".

Really though, remember when we actually did our jobs because they had functionality beyond just adding dps? Nowadays it's "just burn it and don't worry about mitigation/healing". RDM's healing? Nah just let the RDM dps constantly and let the healer do their job. Same with ressing for that matter. May as well wipe and do it right the 2nd time everyone's together than take 2 years regaining mana and trying to dps while weakness is in effect.

#Remove Parsing

So, I'm reading: no fey union, no faerie abilities, wasting aetherflow on SS pre-78, and no dissipation. Complaining about sprint leads me to believe you were also lagging behind. Stop depending on clemency as a crutch and learn your tools instead.

Should PLDs HAVE to use Clemency? Probably not.

Should you feel out the party comp through the pulls and use it to avoid a wipe? YEP

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valic

This entire thread falls under "but my parse tho".

Really though, remember when we actually did our jobs because they had functionality beyond just adding dps? Nowadays it's "just burn it and don't worry about mitigation/healing". RDM's healing? Nah just let the RDM dps constantly and let the healer do their job. Same with ressing for that matter. May as well wipe and do it right the 2nd time everyone's together than take 2 years regaining mana and trying to dps while weakness is in effect.

#Remove Parsing

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I like how you dislike RDM who don't try to do the healers job for them. It makes me chuckle pretty hard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valic

This entire thread falls under "but my parse tho".

Really though, remember when we actually did our jobs because they had functionality beyond just adding dps? Nowadays it's "just burn it and don't worry about mitigation/healing". RDM's healing? Nah just let the RDM dps constantly and let the healer do their job. Same with ressing for that matter. May as well wipe and do it right the 2nd time everyone's together than take 2 years regaining mana and trying to dps while weakness is in effect.
#Remove Parsing

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Welcome to the Massively multiplayer online role-playing games, where you are trying to be as efficient your own role as possible so you are no weight for your party.
People were competitive loooong before FFXIV ever existed with parser or not.
You dont need a parser to tell if PLD should use clemency, he shouldnt since healer job has more than enough tools to heal through everything as long as tank uses his deffensive kit properly.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valic

This entire thread falls under "but my parse tho".

Really though, remember when we actually did our jobs because they had functionality beyond just adding dps? Nowadays it's "just burn it and don't worry about mitigation/healing". RDM's healing? Nah just let the RDM dps constantly and let the healer do their job. Same with ressing for that matter. May as well wipe and do it right the 2nd time everyone's together than take 2 years regaining mana and trying to dps while weakness is in effect.

#Remove Parsing

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It's not really about the parse and more about not doing someone else's job. Actually using clemency in a meaningful way is extremely difficult. Considering the healer kit is more than sufficient to never require the use of clemency and the fact that a lot of healers don't heal the moment any damage is taken often times it's far to late once you realize the healer is struggling. Yes it's nice that pld and rdm have a heal but I think it's fair to say they shouldn't be expected to babysit health bars for the healer. A lot of healers don't overheal so somehow on top of doing their job a rdm or pld are also expect to read the mind of the healer and know whether or not they're struggling or just avoiding overhealing or have a huge heal off cooldown.

There's just so many variables at play that it just makes much more sense to say these classes aren't healers, it's nice they can do it in a pinch but they shouldn't be expected to read minds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

I mean nothing toxic has been said, there has been some critical discussion of OP's account of the matter, and a general consensus, that you shouldn't expect a paladin to use clemency to prevent a wipe.

And to take from the casual player base and their in general more toxic natured responses, "you don't pay my sub".

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Most of the people here are whining about "duh dps tho!" In what's casual content, which let's me know what kind of person they are, toxic raiders. I've seen it thousands of times from these type. You have to do what they say or else your in the wrong. A plds heal has uses, a rdms has uses. Do you try to replace healers with them? Ofc not, but imagine your in savage boss is at 3% but if the tank dies it causes a wipe, would you seriously take a wipe because your too ignorant to use clemency because "WelL iT's GcD vS dAmAGe"

To discredit clemencys use or vercure is the sign of an ignorant fool more concerned about numbers and their parse vs the stability of the run. So selfish people. Call it competition if you wish, but there's decent ways of being competitive. Being obsessed with numbers is exactly why I'm against parsers being added.

I'll try my best like others, but I'll never ask for any numbers seeing how addicted people get to em.

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Originally Posted by NealSnow

Most of the people here are whining about "duh dps tho!" In what's casual content, which let's me know what kind of person they are, toxic raiders. I've seen it thousands of times from these type. You have to do what they say or else your in the wrong. A plds heal has uses, a rdms has uses. Do you try to replace healers with them? Ofc not, but imagine your in savage boss is at 3% but if the tank dies it causes a wipe, would you seriously take a wipe because your too ignorant to use clemency because "WelL iT's GcD vS dAmAGe"

To discredit clemencys use or vercure is the sign of an ignorant fool more concerned about numbers and their parse vs the stability of the run. So selfish people. Call it competition if you wish, but there's decent ways of being competitive. Being obsessed with numbers is exactly why I'm against parsers being added.

I'll try my best like others, but I'll never ask for any numbers seeing how addicted people get to em.

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In your zeal to attack people you're sort of doing the exact thing you're accusing other people of. Given that a lot of healers let tanks fall to very low hp while remaining in total control of the situation it makes it extremely difficult to know if a heal is necessary. Expecting a pld or rdm to read minds and execute skills far outside their job description or else they deserve insult is insane. It's even worse for rdm because they wouldn't be self targeting and being a dps they're probably net set up or used to quick targeting of party members. Your attitude is the problem, insulting people is not good behavior. You yourself are the toxic player, insults are toxic, not play styles. If find it interesting that the players supposedly most concerned about "toxic behavior" are themselves the most toxic players. You hurl insults all over the place, attacking people because of who you think they are out of prejudice. That's not good nor positive behavior.

On another note it is funny to me that hardcore raiders dismiss that they are ever toxic most of the time but call casuals toxic, when the toxic casuals are one side of an extreme, just as there's an extreme side for elitists.

As for me I hate both sides equally:D if you are a blm only using ice 4 because "it's pretty" (actually had this encounter) yes you are playing the job wrong factually as all jobs minus blu have a rotation in mind when created. But as this thread shows if you discount certain skills because they won't affect dps, that's pretty much on the extreme side of parser users obsessed unhealthy with numbers and competing. Plus if you're worried about dps, can't dps if your dead or you'll dps less if weakened, making clemency look rather good in that light eh?

But yea, that's my peace on the matter. If your playing a pld, don't allow yourself to die because you feel the healer coulda kept you alive. A dead tank is a non dpsing tank anyway :p

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Yorumi

In your zeal to attack people you're sort of doing the exact thing you're accusing other people of. Given that a lot of healers let tanks fall to very low hp while remaining in total control of the situation it makes it extremely difficult to know if a heal is necessary. Expecting a pld or rdm to read minds and execute skills far outside their job description or else they deserve insult is insane. It's even worse for rdm because they wouldn't be self targeting and being a dps they're probably net set up or used to quick targeting of party members. Your attitude is the problem, insulting people is not good behavior. You yourself are the toxic player, insults are toxic, not play styles. If find it interesting that the players supposedly most concerned about "toxic behavior" are themselves the most toxic players. You hurl insults all over the place, attacking people because of who you think they are out of prejudice. That's not good nor positive behavior.

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I'm not saying insult them for not healing, I'm insulting them for not healing themselves then complaining about dying. Because that's being an idiot, being so stubbern about dps numbers you refuse to heal in case you'll die. Not if they don't heal, only if they complain about it because clemency is a good chunk of hp.

And idc if I'm toxic, or deemed toxic tbh. I see stupidity I call it out for what it is. I have zero tolerance for ignorant behavior such as this thread and yes, denying that plds should use clemency ever is blatantly ignorance. I don't believe it's ignorance born of not knowing better, but ignorance of "I know for a fact clemency should never be used"

Plus you ignored the question of whether or not you should use clemency in a raid if it meant saving it.

But yea I'm a hardass at times, strongly opinionated. So I don't expect everyone to like me. Prime example of the kind of stupidity I hate is remember the McDonald's coffee incidence? That was a moronic event. Coffee is ya know hot. So trying to sue because you mishandled hot coffee is indeed stupid. As is saying you shouldn't use clemency.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NealSnow

And idc if I'm toxic, or deemed toxic tbh. I see stupidity I call it out for what it is. I have zero tolerance for ignorant behavior such as this thread and yes, denying that plds should use clemency ever is blatantly ignorance. I don't believe it's ignorance born of not knowing better, but ignorance of "I know for a fact clemency should never be used"

Plus you ignored the question of whether or not you should use clemency in a raid if it meant saving it.

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I don't intend to keep going back and forth on this. You're arrogantly misrepresenting the discussion. Never does anyone have the clairvoyance of a carefully laid out perfect situation that can be devised on paper. Using clemency is very complicated especially in the chaos of a mass pull. There's not a lot of really good tells if a healer is struggling in the midst of chaos. A lot of healers let a tank's HP fall knowing they can top them off fast so the healer can focus on dps. It's almost imposible to know if a healer has blown all their cooldowns and to see how much they're spamming heals without taking focus off the task at hand which is tanking and avoiding aoes. Sometimes even hallowed ground isn't fast enough to come out in an emergency and it's instant. On top of that the pld's magic rotation is highly favored for aoe so they might not even have the mp available.

For players who aren't high end raiders expecting them to do their job right and babysit a healer on top of that is extreme. Basically it's a skill that has few real uses and requires near psychic clairvoyance to use properly. To insult people for saying focus on tanking is nuts.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by NealSnow

Most of the people here are whining about "duh dps tho!" In what's casual content, which let's me know what kind of person they are, toxic raiders. I've seen it thousands of times from these type. You have to do what they say or else your in the wrong. A plds heal has uses, a rdms has uses. Do you try to replace healers with them? Ofc not, but imagine your in savage boss is at 3% but if the tank dies it causes a wipe, would you seriously take a wipe because your too ignorant to use clemency because "WelL iT's GcD vS dAmAGe"

To discredit clemencys use or vercure is the sign of an ignorant fool more concerned about numbers and their parse vs the stability of the run. So selfish people. Call it competition if you wish, but there's decent ways of being competitive. Being obsessed with numbers is exactly why I'm against parsers being added.

I'll try my best like others, but I'll never ask for any numbers seeing how addicted people get to em.

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Okay so, "toxic raider" is a person that calls someone a r****d, s**ts on someone for screwing up mechanics constantly, or if someone is barely doing a tap of damage. You're pretty much colouring everyone that raids, who likes to optimise damage as toxic in your phrasing of what a toxic raider is, but in actual fact, most raiders are just competitive players that like to strive to play better at the game. It's not a matter of "but muh dps", it's a Yorumi said, it shouldn't be expected of PLDs or RDMs to cover the healer because it's usually too late by the time to react to that scenario. I'm used to different playsytles, some healers like to play "how low can you go", we ain't mind readers.

If it means we wipe even on sub 1%, the fault lies with the healer(s) not the PLD or the RDM due to healing issues. You suck it up and you go again. Sure you probably lost 8-10mins in a savage fight, but wipes happen, it's the nature of the game, it's not life or death.

There is no discrediting of Clemency or Verraise, it's more there isn't a need for it because if a healer makes full use of their toolkit, there should never have a situation arise that you need to use it, in the normal course of play. Clemency / Verraise are most beneficial in prog and solo play.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by aodhan_ofinnegain

Okay so, "toxic raider" is a person that calls someone a r****d, s**ts on someone for screwing up mechanics constantly, or if someone is barely doing a tap of damage. You're pretty much colouring everyone that raids, who likes to optimise damage as toxic in your phrasing of what a toxic raider is, but in actual fact, most raiders are just competitive players that like to strive to play better at the game. It's not a matter of "but muh dps", it's a Yorumi said, it shouldn't be expected of PLDs or RDMs to cover the healer because it's usually too late by the time to react to that scenario. I'm used to different playsytles, some healers like to play "how low can you go", we ain't mind readers.

If it means we wipe even on sub 1%, the fault lies with the healer(s) not the PLD or the RDM due to healing issues. You suck it up and you go again. Sure you probably lost 8-10mins in a savage fight, but wipes happen, it's the nature of the game, it's not life or death.

There is no discrediting of Clemency or Verraise, it's more there isn't a need for it because if a healer makes full use of their toolkit, there should never have a situation arise that you need to use it, in the normal course of play. Clemency / Verraise are most beneficial in prog and solo play.

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Okay so riddle me this, why do paladins have a highly potent skill at all then? According to you people it's seemingly a mistake apparently. Again. You are ignorant to the purpose of the skill. Whether or not you ever grow to get past that is on you to realize that maybe the hivemind is never 100% correct.