Astro changes 5.1

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaelommiss

I think it would help a lot if cards were 15-20% and Play were changed to GCD instead of oGCD. Overall rdps would be similar after considering the lost Malefic, but they would feel more significant and worth the effort it takes to change targets. The only problem is that below a certain level of performance it would be a dps loss to apply them to party members.

---

Tbh that could actually be a very very good solution. But which one should be put there?

If you consider regular draw, putting on Draw would be the best as you'd have 2 weaving opportunity for either Redraw, but Sleeve Draw would still be a mess and have insane dps value (3cards + no gcd lock). It would also help controller a lot by giving them more time to go up n down their list (I'm one of them T_T)

Or it could be put on Play/MA, that would make Sleeve Draw much easier to deal with as you'd have weaving opportunities after each Play. However you wouldn't be able to Redraw right after pulling the card and controller wouldn't benefit much from it.

Both have their pro and cons, however I have the feeling that making Sleeve Draw less of a spamfest would be the best solution, (so putting Play on the gcd)

Increasing the dps value of cards would also help cards feel more impactful. Because, while they do have some impact, let's be honest, 6% is really small, especially if it doesn't fall on one's burst window. Taking you scree, 11.1k on that ewer, when you think about it that's really weak... barely a malefic.

However it could be hard to balance. Let say you boost it to 15% to compensate the loss of a Malefic, well now for sure, your number will vary from on AST to another depending on when the card is used. You'd also get some really nice numbers on opener...

But I would raelly be curious to try it out tbh

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

You're still blind to the RNG you can still get with drawing cards, nothing but melee's or nothing but Range and ALSO trying for 3 seals which you'll never get 100% of the time.
Ewer Card would be nice to have for that MP Regen cause Astro needs something other than lucid dreaming. WHM and SCH both have other ways to get it, AST needs something too.
Spire can be replaced with a direct hit buff instead of TP, honestly don't think you even care to think outside the box of much anything.
Having all the cards named differently only to give the same effect is "Lazy". Also CU in Nocturnal STILL makes you stand perfectly still to use it which is even not worth the buff. Rather have it place able so I can use my cards or keep casting. People who would complain about "Fishing for balance" didn't appreciate anything about the class. MY Class should NOT have to Suffer just to Boost your Parse in Raiding with just "Balance Cards" Disgusting in all aspects.

---

The point of the current card system is that the rng of the mechanic is the POTENCY of the effect and not the effect itself. Instead of setting up an AoE buff, you're setting up Divination. Instead of bad rng not allowing you to provide any group support, bad rng now causes your support to be weaker.

Again, as I've seen at least one other person parrot on this forum. Tying utility to RNG is a bad idea because you cannot rely on it when trying to make the most of your toolkit. Bole is bad because it was random. So it was removed and actual mitigation was placed in the toolkit. Ewer was bad because it was random. So the solution should be to place MP sustain on a consistent effect, like drawing the cards themselves, and not on a random effect that can't be relied on.

Also, look I can do this too.

MY class should NOT have to suffer just to Appeal to Gamblers who's Bias towards lucky draws want to make the class's Utility Difficult to Quantify and optimize my play around. Absolutley disgusting.

Collective Unconscious should have an MP Regen effect while the bubble is active. Flashing it briefly loses the brilliance of the animation and it feels terrible knowing that's the best way to use it. The lengthy duration it can be active just feels pointless. I would definitely hold it up though if it gave me a quick surge to MP generation. Would be really fun to do a Rez fest and then burst my MP to full right after while giving a defense buff and steady healing all at the same time. The mp refresh would be ignored by optimizers but a definite fail safe for struggle parties and it's lowered cooldowns would put it on par with Aetherflow and Assize. It would potentially restore more MP than both but at the cost of executing new actions.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LariaKirin

I wonder if this is going to be too much.

The Malefic/Combust changes are an approximate increase of 7% to the AST's dps. The CU buff in Diurnal is massive.

Currently: 50 pot regen every 90 sec.
5.1: 100 pot regen every 60 sec.
Stormblood: 150 pot regen every 90 sec.

It's 3 times stronger than current CU and equal to Stormblood in terms of throughput. This is alot of free healing that will result in a dps increase.

AST + SCH might once again become the strongest combination.

---

I'm surprised more people on here aren't concerned about these changes. AST's healing kit was already very strong and now it's going to be even stronger.
With these changes they will now have 3 powerful oGCD AoE heals on short CDs that will open up a lot more opportunities for SCH to DPS similar to Stormblood.
Now anytime a SCH would Soil an AST can just CU for free which means more Energy Drains not to mention depending on how damage lines up it can allow
for more Broils (which is only 20 less potency than Glare btw) if the AST can heal through the damage with an oGCD. This doesn't even take into account the DPS
buff to Malefic and Combust.

We're possibly looking at a repeat of 3.4/4.4. Not as bad of course, but I'm really thinking with these changes the best comp with once again be AST/SCH with
WHM/SCH being the undisputed best for prog.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylvain

Tbh that could actually be a very very good solution. But which one should be put there?

If you consider regular draw, putting on Draw would be the best as you'd have 2 weaving opportunity for either Redraw, but Sleeve Draw would still be a mess and have insane dps value (3cards + no gcd lock). It would also help controller a lot by giving them more time to go up n down their list (I'm one of them T_T)

Or it could be put on Play/MA, that would make Sleeve Draw much easier to deal with as you'd have weaving opportunities after each Play. However you wouldn't be able to Redraw right after pulling the card and controller wouldn't benefit much from it.

Both have their pro and cons, however I have the feeling that making Sleeve Draw less of a spamfest would be the best solution, (so putting Play on the gcd)

Increasing the dps value of cards would also help cards feel more impactful. Because, while they do have some impact, let's be honest, 6% is really small, especially if it doesn't fall on one's burst window. Taking you scree, 11.1k on that ewer, when you think about it that's really weak... barely a malefic.

However it could be hard to balance. Let say you boost it to 15% to compensate the loss of a Malefic, well now for sure, your number will vary from on AST to another depending on when the card is used. You'd also get some really nice numbers on opener...

But I would raelly be curious to try it out tbh

---

I crunched a lot of numbers for it while writing my previous post, but removed them for brevity.

Looking at my last E4S clear, an average Malefic is worth 16.6k. For a 15 second card to break even, it needs to cause a 1.1k dps boost. This is the magic number. If a GCD card produces less than that amount then it would be better to skip it in favour of Malefic.

10th percentile Innocence Ex dps ranges from 7.2-8.5k dps. At this level of performance a card would need to be at least 13.0-15.3% bonus damage to break even.
50th percentile is 10.1-11.5k. To break even buffing these players would require 9.6-11.0% to match a Malefic.
95th percentile is 12.4-14.4k. These players would need 7.7-8.9%.

I used Innocence Ex numbers because there's pretty high uptime during that fight and it's easy enough that a large range of player skills will be represented.

Who do you balance these buffs around? If you balance them around the 95th percentile players then using all of an AST's kit is suboptimal play if the rest of the party isn't at a high level of performance. If instead cards are balanced around buffing the weakest possible players then AST rdps inflates as the party improves. A 15% card that equals Malefic's 16.6k damage on weak players will deal 27.9k on the 95th percentile player.

If cards are balanced around being worth, say, 2x Malefic when placed on a 50th percentile player (19.2-22.0%) then they will always be worth spending a GCD for, but then you run into problems with AST's damage being vastly superior in strong parties. The larger the percent bonus, the greater the impact that having a strong party has on AST dps. If AST is equal to WHM and SCH in a 50th percentile party, then they will be better 100% of the time with a stronger party, and the performance gap will grow as the buff percentage increases. By the same token, AST will be vastly inferior in weaker parties. This is a certainty whenever a significant portion of performance depends on other players.


Edit: One possible alternative would be to keep cards at their current effectiveness (3/6%, 4/8%), put them on the GCD, and give the AST a dps buff when one is played to balance the lost Malefic. Increase next spell's potency by 100%. If that is too powerful (hello 900 potency Combust III, or 1200 potency in 5.1) then the buff could be reduced to 25% for the next four spells. This way the card would always pay for its Malefic cost while the percentage buff could stay small enough to not cause wild imbalance in peak high and low performing parties.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Sylvain

Tbh that could actually be a very very good solution. But which one should be put there?

---

The problem is that assuming you maintain the same rDPS overall, you will have simply swapped the inability to perform as highly in an unskilled party (who therefore cannot grant you as much rDPS from their use of your cards and Divination) for the inability to use your rDPS skills at all in an unskilled party; the cards simply won't be worth the cost to Malefic casts.

So, which is more important -- (1) the option for greater rDPS consistency across varying party skills levels (by ignoring your cards and balancing cards around the opportunity costs presented at higher levels of play, necessary for the theoretical balance anyone will actually look at), or (2) getting to use your cards even when in an under-performing party?

I'd argue the latter. If cards are important to AST, we should always want to use cards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandedblade

The point of the current card system is that the rng of the mechanic is the POTENCY of the effect and not the effect itself. Instead of setting up an AoE buff, you're setting up Divination. Instead of bad rng not allowing you to provide any group support, bad rng now causes your support to be weaker.

Again, as I've seen at least one other person parrot on this forum. Tying utility to RNG is a bad idea because you cannot rely on it when trying to make the most of your toolkit. Bole is bad because it was random. So it was removed and actual mitigation was placed in the toolkit. Ewer was bad because it was random. So the solution should be to place MP sustain on a consistent effect, like drawing the cards themselves, and not on a random effect that can't be relied on.

Also, look I can do this too.

MY class should NOT have to suffer just to Appeal to Gamblers who's Bias towards lucky draws want to make the class's Utility Difficult to Quantify and optimize my play around. Absolutley disgusting.

---

Regardless it's RNG no matter how you look at it. Obviously you fall into the small "Majority" who obviously complained about fishing for balance without appreciating the different ways of handling a situation with the tools given. Honestly ashamed because it's people like you who the dev's took opinions from that made people quit playing this class. I'm finished talking to you about this, you're obviously too stubborn to even come to reason or even appreciate what astrologian's had. Maybe one day when they take away what you love, I hope they don't care in the slightest.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

1. Then reduce the RNG through Redraw chances. You can't draw the same card twice in any draw period. If absolutely necessary, you can have Sleeve Draw refresh Redraw stacks, or even reduce the chance of drawing a card you've already used in the same Divination period.
2. If MP is a unique concern despite not having what would be a uniquely strong kit (if not for those MP concerns), it should be addressed by simple MP cost changes, not through needing to waste cards, else you underpower the job. That's not to say you can't use either-or, but do pick one.
3. Direct Hit is simply damage. Literally just damage. Except it doesn't work on auto-Directs like Warrior's entire burst period. It would therefore just be a worse-designed version of Balance.
4. I've no problems flashing CU just before the hit to get the defense buff up, same as with Passage of Arms.
5. That's... your job, though? And, you've got it backwards. How well they use your cards does absolutely nothing for their parse now; it only feeds yours. It takes 8 players to give you your parse; what you "give" them doesn't show a single point of impact on their individual parses.

---

1:You CAN however draw back to back cards resulting in only melee cards or Range cards. I've had this happen countless times using all my redraw stacks before a pull on a raid.
2: 30 seconds of not using 1 "balance" card is not going to kill your damage support. The devs already implemented a MP cost reduction -100 which is honestly why bother
3: It's not the point, the point of the different aspect of having a direct hit card is for variety and also timing this with a dancer's Devilment can be really good btw
4: Why make it a channeled skill if we're just suppose to instantly break it after using it? Serves no Purpose
5: It is my job to give party support yes but making it only "Damage" cards is not fun. A lot of people don't seem to understand that.
I'm honestly tired and I'm done ranting about it. SE you need to go back to the drawing board. End Rant

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

1:You CAN however draw back to back cards resulting in only melee cards or Range cards. I've had this happen countless times using all my redraw stacks before a pull on a raid.

---

Well, knew that would bite me before I could get home to a PC to edit. God forbid I rely on contextual understanding.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Shurrikhan

Then reduce the RNG through Redraw chances: make it so you can't draw the same card twice in any draw period.

---

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

2: 30 seconds of not using 1 "balance" card is not going to kill your damage support. The devs already implemented a MP cost reduction -100 which is honestly why bother
3: It's not the point, the point of the different aspect of having a direct hit card is for variety and also timing this with a dancer's Devilment can be really good btw
4: Why make it a channeled skill if we're just suppose to instantly break it after using it? Serves no Purpose
5: It is my job to give party support yes but making it only "Damage" cards is not fun. A lot of people don't seem to understand that.
I'm honestly tired and I'm done ranting about it. SE you need to go back to the drawing board. End Rant

---

• Even once per 5 minutes is already a 10% reduction to your total card output.
• The multiplicity bonus works the other way; a scalar which multiplies that Direct-Crit damage alongside all damage, does more than one that simply increases the chance of a Direct-Crit occurring.

Let's say we have a 15% natural crit chance (enough crit for 50% bonus damage) and a 15% direct hit chance. You have therefore a 12.75% chance Crit, a 12.75% chance to Direct Hit, and a 4.5% chance to Direct-Crit. This grants a total bonus of 11.8125% damage, up from the 11.25% damage they'd do if they could neither stack nor conflict (until each over a sum of 100% chance). Thus, the multiplicity is responsible for exactly 5% of their damage bonus.

Now, let's say we increase the Crit chance by 20% via Devilment. On its own, at our current Crit Bonus, this should amount to an increase of roughly 10% damage if there were no multiplicity, for a total of some 21.8125% damage bonus. Instead, it gives 22.5625%, 0.75% higher.

Now let's say we have the choice of an added 5% damage or an added 20% Direct Hit chance (raising each to 35%, which is the best case scenario for multiplicity).

Damage: 28.690625%
Direct Hit: 29.3125% (~.62% higher or a relative increase of 2.2%).

But let's pretend for a moment that 35% of each chance is just such a pitifully small stat value that we just can't yet see the miracle of multiplicity reach its full potential, to where it could really outshine there mere +/- 5% damage modifier attached to every skill. In fact, let's go to the maximum: 80% of each chance naturally, or 100% each under Devilment/Spire.
Starting from the Devilment alone: 72% damage increase.
Adding Spire: 100% damage increase.
Adding Damage: 80.6% damage increase.

Finally, we can see multiplicity pay off. But, if that's what you're hoping for from XIV, you really ought to consult our stat charts: you would need over 4500 Crit just to reach a 30% Crit chance. You are unlikely to hit any point at which even the optimal addition of Direct Hit chance (raising it to one's already buff-inflated Crit chance) would outperform its nominally equivalent basic damage buff by more than a few scant percent. And, as they tend only to follow multiples of 5 once dealing with relatively large numbers, unless Direct Hit is balanced for nominal equivalence (that is to say, without relying on multiplicity whatsoever, a (Direct Hit) Spire will never outpace a (Damage) Balance within the lifetime of this game. A 15% added chance of 25% more damage and its Crit-multiplicity will never compete with a 10% Damage buff within the gearing lifespan of this expansion, even when stacked atop CS, BL, and BV, simply due to how limited our stats are.

Direct Hit is therefore, for all intents and purposes, just another Damage bonus, effectively indistinct from Balance.

• Why make Passage of Arms a channeled skill when its optimal to flash it? Why were Anatman and Meditate previously flashed despite being channeled resource-generation skills? Why is Flamethrower still so lackluster? I'm all for changing the whole lot of them, but it makes no sense to find this one uniquely problematic, nor is there at present any place for it if used as a channel given how strong AST mitigation and regen tools are already. At best your complaint is likely to force the skill onto the GCD in the fashion of Anatman, Meditation, and Flamethrower, without seeing it meaningfully buffed in any way.
• I never said we should be limited to damage cards; I'd rather have the full slew of card effects back (I merely dislike throwing out so many different flavors of the same card, as Direct Hit and Damage would be, whereas Speed and Crit at least have more versatile and varying usefulness). But, if you're begrudging the use of damage utility just because it isn't strictly labeled "Support", don't. It's probably the best way prog runs have of avoiding wipes, certainly better than what AoE Bole could do within the raid damage dealt in the fight designs we've seen so far from ShB.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Jaelommiss

Who do you balance these buffs around? If you balance them around the 95th percentile players then using all of an AST's kit is suboptimal play if the rest of the party isn't at a high level of performance. If instead cards are balanced around buffing the weakest possible players then AST rdps inflates as the party improves. A 15% card that equals Malefic's 16.6k damage on weak players will deal 27.9k on the 95th percentile player.
.

---

You can't, this is why they've been nerfed, because the value vary way too much from a bad to a good group. And this is why they buffed our personal dps and not the cards.
Well at least it was nice to dream about it for an evening.

Quote:

---

One possible alternative would be to keep cards at their current effectiveness (3/6%, 4/8%), put them on the GCD, and give the AST a dps buff when one is played to balance the lost Malefic. Increase next spell's potency by 100%. If that is too powerful (hello 900 potency Combust III, or 1200 potency in 5.1) then the buff could be reduced to 25% for the next four spells. This way the card would always pay for its Malefic cost while the percentage buff could stay small enough to not cause wild imbalance in peak high and low performing parties.

---

I've thought of that. But as you pointed don't buff "next spell", just make "your next Malefic4 potency is 500" (I like round number, 480 is weird).
And this way I can finally chill a bit more while playing AST on a controller x)


Regarding CU being a channel, they could simply make it deal damage equal to a malefic spam while it's channeled. You could reduce the duration to 9s to compensate. I just don't know how you could balance CU damage since it would rely on server tick to deal damage... so it'd be hard to gauge when we can break the bubble without loosing a malefic. (server tick yahoo)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

Regardless it's RNG no matter how you look at it. Obviously you fall into the small "Majority" who obviously complained about fishing for balance without appreciating the different ways of handling a situation with the tools given. Honestly ashamed because it's people like you who the dev's took opinions from that made people quit playing this class. I'm finished talking to you about this, you're obviously too stubborn to even come to reason or even appreciate what astrologian's had. Maybe one day when they take away what you love, I hope they don't care in the slightest.

---

I'm honestly ashamed of how so emotionally invested in this you are "Maybe one day when they take away what you love, I hope they dont care in the slightest?" Lol!

I supposed I should be finished with you as well since you're to stubborn to see the fact that tying assorted utility to a rng mechanic is inherently a flawed design. The thing that AST had was the reason I never played it? Why gamble and shuffle through random effects when I could have my consistency on SCH? Now that they've made the card system significantly more consistent I find the class more fun. I will take the rng effecting the potency over the effects themselves any day.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandedblade

I'm honestly ashamed of how so emotionally invested in this you are "Maybe one day when they take away what you love, I hope they dont care in the slightest?" Lol!

I supposed I should be finished with you as well since you're to stubborn to see the fact that tying assorted utility to a rng mechanic is inherently a flawed design. The thing that AST had was the reason I never played it? Why gamble and shuffle through random effects when I could have my consistency on SCH? Now that they've made the card system significantly more consistent I find the class more fun. I will take the rng effecting the potency over the effects themselves any day.

---

brandedblade maybe you should be ashamed at how stupid you are being right now and your lack of vision is instead,seriously comments such as these are shows how little you care about playing the game,disrespecting someone for caring about his job is seriously shameful.

AST theme is around reading fate using his cards and utilizing the stars power to alter it to his favor. u see having utility based rng mechanic as a flawed design only because you cant control it as you want but its definitely not flawed cause that is the point of AST power,utilizing what random thing(a.k.a RNG) fate throws at him and using it to make it work for him.

you gamble and shuffle through effects is exactly the concept of reading and trying to change fate, you are handed a bunch of cards now its up to you what to do with them.
you can successfully make the hand you were given work for you ,or fail and accept your fate or keep trying and change what you were given in order to make it work. that is the point of this system and if you fail to see and understand that then seriously with your comment, why do you play AST then if you don't like even its theme?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandedblade

I'm honestly ashamed of how so emotionally invested in this you are "Maybe one day when they take away what you love, I hope they dont care in the slightest?" Lol!

I supposed I should be finished with you as well since you're to stubborn to see the fact that tying assorted utility to a rng mechanic is inherently a flawed design. The thing that AST had was the reason I never played it? Why gamble and shuffle through random effects when I could have my consistency on SCH? Now that they've made the card system significantly more consistent I find the class more fun. I will take the rng effecting the potency over the effects themselves any day.

---

Maybe that was the point, if you didn't like it there was another healer with a different playstyle you could enjoy, you do not have to like everything(directed at our side too btw), so when the devs decided not to build on it and instead change it to something else it created pushback(they ofc knew it would) from those of us that liked the old system, this is the issue now the healers all feel too similar while being both busy and dull and the devs are now stuck between 2 sets of people (by their own making) so who do they listen to?, the only numbers we as players have are savage clears which suggest a huge falloff in AST savage players from SB even compared to SB's whm numbers but they have other metrics but they are not communicating it with us besides silence.

This is how i view old vs new
old-£1m slot machine, low rng chance of getting the big pay out(aoe balance) but felt way more rewarding when do
new-£100 slot machine, way more consistent on getting the big pay out just meh to get though

Lastly if old AST was not for you for whatever reason, that was ok, it didn't need to be, but when they take the job i loved most since it released even when it was horrifically undertuned and took away what i found fun i'm going to be vocal and i'm glad i haven't been the only one. Come 6.0 this entire thing will be put to rest or we will have a new wave of complaining ASTs as they will either keep the system(put to rest) or change it again(new complaints). Yes it is selfish i want my fun over your fun(and you would want the same for your fun) but my fun came first and they got rid of it so i am here yelling(metophorically ofc) for that fun to return.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Why gamble and shuffle through random effects when I could have my consistency on SCH?

---

Then play SCH lol.

Why should you engage with a mechanic that was originally designed and intended to be RNG when you can have a more consistent output with another class? The simple answer is because you have the option to, and even then you're not forced to put up with AST because, like you've said, SCH exists.

You can't seriously be trying to justify calling AST's design 'inherently flawed' because of its utility being locked behind RNG; because it doesn't play like a more consistent class. I'm not about to say BLM is 'inherently flawed' because it has no party healing skills.

People who are incensed by the changes have every right to be angry because as much as you like to claim "it's just a game" to be the moral victory it's not, there is the more tangible investment of both time and money that others have spent enjoying a job they liked to play. You'd be remiss if you expected them to just quietly accept such a drastic overhaul to something they had enjoyed for years, flaws and all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandedblade

I'm honestly ashamed of how so emotionally invested in this you are "Maybe one day when they take away what you love, I hope they dont care in the slightest?" Lol!

I supposed I should be finished with you as well since you're to stubborn to see the fact that tying assorted utility to a rng mechanic is inherently a flawed design. The thing that AST had was the reason I never played it? Why gamble and shuffle through random effects when I could have my consistency on SCH? Now that they've made the card system significantly more consistent I find the class more fun. I will take the rng effecting the potency over the effects themselves any day.

---

"Screw what everyone else liked, it's good now that 'I' like it!"

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandedblade

I'm honestly ashamed of how so emotionally invested in this you are "Maybe one day when they take away what you love, I hope they dont care in the slightest?" Lol!

I supposed I should be finished with you as well since you're to stubborn to see the fact that tying assorted utility to a rng mechanic is inherently a flawed design. The thing that AST had was the reason I never played it? Why gamble and shuffle through random effects when I could have my consistency on SCH? Now that they've made the card system significantly more consistent I find the class more fun. I will take the rng effecting the potency over the effects themselves any day.

---

If you dont like the design, just play other healer.
No body forcing you to play AST.

For other people, card RNG is what make AST fun.
For them, AST is unique because the diversity of card effect and the decission making process.

What you said here is more like "I dont care with what happen to other people as long as it is fun for me".

*checks patch notes*

Hey, Bob from Accounting finally finished the potency changes! Thanks, Bob, for letting me know I can safely continue to ignore what used to be my main.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

brandedblade maybe you should be ashamed at how stupid you are being right now and your lack of vision is instead,seriously comments such as these are shows how little you care about playing the game,disrespecting someone for caring about his job is seriously shameful.

AST theme is around reading fate using his cards and utilizing the stars power to alter it to his favor. u see having utility based rng mechanic as a flawed design only because you cant control it as you want but its definitely not flawed cause that is the point of AST power,utilizing what random thing(a.k.a RNG) fate throws at him and using it to make it work for him.

you gamble and shuffle through effects is exactly the concept of reading and trying to change fate, you are handed a bunch of cards now its up to you what to do with them.
you can successfully make the hand you were given work for you ,or fail and accept your fate or keep trying and change what you were given in order to make it work. that is the point of this system and if you fail to see and understand that then seriously with your comment, why do you play AST then if you don't like even its theme?

---

I can still argue that's what AST is still doing. You still randomly draw cards, then you manipulate them to make the most of them. You still use them set up an end goal. Instead of it being an AoE balance and settling for AoE Spear or Arrow you now try to achieve a 3 seal Divination and settle for a 2 or 1seal Divination with bad luck.The difference now is that instead of bad luck giving you useless or no utility, you just get a weaker version of the good utility. Instead of randomly getting niche utility, said utility is baked elsewhere into the toolkit or on other classes.

And even beyond the cards, a few abilities still play into the theme of predicting the future and creating a favorable outcome. Horoscope's and Earthly Star's requirements of setup and preplanning are what immediately come to mind in this regard. Even essential dignity, despite how much more reactive it is as opposed to proactive, can still be percieved as altering a bad fate at the last minute.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandedblade

I can still argue that's what AST is still doing. You still randomly draw cards, then you manipulate them to make the most of them. You still use them set up an end goal. Instead of it being an AoE balance and settling for AoE Spear or Arrow you now try to achieve a 3 seal Divination and settle for a 2 or 1seal Divination with bad luck.The difference now is that instead of bad luck giving you useless or no utility, you just get a weaker version of the good utility. Instead of randomly getting niche utility, said utility is baked elsewhere into the toolkit or on other classes.

And even beyond the cards, a few abilities still play into the theme of predicting the future and creating a favorable outcome. Horoscope's and Earthly Star's requirements of setup and preplanning are what immediately come to mind in this regard. Even essential dignity, despite how much more reactive it is as opposed to proactive, can still be percieved as altering a bad fate at the last minute.

---

The cards were core to the class. The lore of the cards and the different things they favored is still in the job quests. They all do the same thing now. The seals are bullshit and could have been thought of by somebody's kid. Multiple forum posters have come up with better ways to have "predictability" and still a variety of utility. I have suggested multiple things, including making the seals based on who the cards were thrown on.

"said utility is baked elsewhere into the toolkit or on other classes." <- This is how you present a losing argument, by saying that what was on the class under discussion is on another class now and so we should be happy.

Go back to SCH, and stay there. Those of us that can handle an improvisation minigame will handle AST for you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandedblade

I can still argue that's what AST is still doing. You still randomly draw cards, then you manipulate them to make the most of them. You still use them set up an end goal. Instead of it being an AoE balance and settling for AoE Spear or Arrow you now try to achieve a 3 seal Divination and settle for a 2 or 1seal Divination with bad luck.The difference now is that instead of bad luck giving you useless or no utility, you just get a weaker version of the good utility. Instead of randomly getting niche utility, said utility is baked elsewhere into the toolkit or on other classes.

And even beyond the cards, a few abilities still play into the theme of predicting the future and creating a favorable outcome. Horoscope's and Earthly Star's requirements of setup and preplanning are what immediately come to mind in this regard. Even essential dignity, despite how much more reactive it is as opposed to proactive, can still be percieved as altering a bad fate at the last minute.

---

Even after everyone's input you still don't seem to get it. We're not asking for it to give us TP cards again, if you were thinking that then god help you. We're asking for the card variety buffs back, it's more fun and appealing for everyone. Yes I will get Angry when they take away the fun out of my class, just because you didn't like it doesn't mean everyone else won't. This has nothing to do with Astro's other abilities, we're asking for them to give back what made Astro feel special. Just because you like something so dumbed down and basic to the core doesn't mean it's the "Right" way it should be. I will continue to voice my opinion about how I feel they destroyed the fun out of my Favorite and main class that I've spent so much time into and there's nothing you can do about it. Square Enix will realize it sooner or later.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

Even after everyone's input you still don't seem to get it. We're not asking for it to give us TP cards again, if you were thinking that then god help you. We're asking for the card variety buffs back, it's more fun and appealing for everyone. Yes I will get Angry when they take away the fun out of my class, just because you didn't like it doesn't mean everyone else won't. This has nothing to do with Astro's other abilities, we're asking for them to give back what made Astro feel special. Just because you like something so dumbed down and basic to the core doesn't mean it's the "Right" way it should be. I will continue to voice my opinion about how I feel they destroyed the fun out of my Favorite and main class that I've spent so much time into and there's nothing you can do about it. Square Enix will realize it sooner or later.

---

And I will continue to express my opinion that the varied cards where not as great as you remember them.

I can somewhat sympathize with the notion of wanting things like DH,Crit and/or Haste cards. But things like MP restoration and damage mitigation should NOT be tied to rng, as those elements are things that need to be on demand to get the most out of. Relying on randomness for such make or break mechanics is bad, no matter how good getting that Bole for the tank who was getting destroyed by a large pull felt. Relying on luck for those type of situations is bad.

However, if you put variety into the card effects, it may increase group synergy in certain situations, but all that will happen is people, you know, the ones you said ruined the job, will just math out the Best Card and it will revert back to being expected to fish for the best card and only settle for the worse cards when your rng runs dry. Which is how it was played a the highest skill level then, and how it still plays.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandedblade

I can still argue that's what AST is still doing...

---

if that is your argument,i will try to explain to your argument is wrong on those regards:

1.Cards meanings- AST using his card is the same as fortunetellers doing tarots.every card has a different meaning because it represented a different aspect in life(love,fortune,endings,happiness...)the old cards had different effects because just like tarot cards are based on the constellation in FF14 which each represent different aspect. the new cards are basically the same card meaning all the different aspects are pretty much ignored so image you go fortune reading to know about your career or love life and the fortune teller tells you she cant cause all the cards just mean 1 thing, nothing.

2.divination mechanic- u claim u set them up to an end goal but it isn't really that cause:

1.you don't set up anything,it comes for just playing the card. you can choose to play it or redraw for a new one which is more akin to a gambler who don't like what he drew so he ask the dealer to give him a new card instead. which unlike the old system as people said you actually get to interpret the card use if you use it as it is or RR for the next draw or MA and turn it to lady/lord which had different effects and lastly redraw.

2. reverse slot machine-i believe someone said it before me but divination mechanic works more like a reverse slot machine,instead of getting 3 identical marks to hit "jackpot" you need 3 different one which again gambler themed not someone who is reading fate.you are basically playing a manual slot machine,"setting up" seals from cards that you still would have to play them with "hitting the jackpot" is as rewarding as not hitting it "fits" AST theme perfectly.you can try and claim MA help you set up cause it won't use seals but it just shows it became a gambler cheat when he isn't happy with the card he given so he rigs the results,same as redraw is right now.(basically AST is a gambler who rigs his slot machine)

3.getting a weaker version of the good utility all the time from a kit aspect that should represent fate and how random life is contradicts AST theme.
not to mentions there are other buffs that can also increase damage then just a pure and really low damage increase(DH,CH,Skill/Spell speed...).

4. having the niche utility you had get baked on other classes kits basically means your class being gutted ,it is a simple fact.

5.the focus is on the cards themes,while it good they made healing skills that rely on predicting the future in the healing kit that doesn't mean the cards theme was changed. their theme still remains the same in the lore, AST use them to read the future and help ishgard in defending and predicting the enemy movement.
as i explained before if all the cards were basically identical, fortune telling would have been useless in ishgard and AST would probably wouldn't even be considered a job there.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandedblade

And I will continue to express my opinion that the varied cards where not as great as you remember them.

I can somewhat sympathize with the notion of wanting things like DH,Crit and/or Haste cards. But things like MP restoration and damage mitigation should NOT be tied to rng, as those elements are things that need to be on demand to get the most out of. Relying on randomness for such make or break mechanics is bad, no matter how good getting that Bole for the tank who was getting destroyed by a large pull felt. Relying on luck for those type of situations is bad.

However, if you put variety into the card effects, it may increase group synergy in certain situations, but all that will happen is people, you know, the ones you said ruined the job, will just math out the Best Card and it will revert back to being expected to fish for the best card and only settle for the worse cards when your rng runs dry. Which is how it was played a the highest skill level then, and how it still plays.

---

the point is having varied buffs ,having MP restoration and damage mitigation can be tied to rng as long it also tied in different part of the kit for on-demand situations as you said.

the fact you still playing fishing for cards doesn't mean its a good thing,in fact it what made those changes to ast in the first place.
and even if people will still try to do that,SE could have found a much better implemented solution to reduce fishing.
hack even with the new system it could have been implemented better to make each card have equal value without making them have the same buff.

in the end ,if you hate rng so much then again go be a scholar or white mage,the point that people love ast is the varied buffs and its ties to rng.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandedblade

And I will continue to express my opinion that the varied cards where not as great as you remember them.

I can somewhat sympathize with the notion of wanting things like DH,Crit and/or Haste cards. But things like MP restoration and damage mitigation should NOT be tied to rng, as those elements are things that need to be on demand to get the most out of. Relying on randomness for such make or break mechanics is bad, no matter how good getting that Bole for the tank who was getting destroyed by a large pull felt. Relying on luck for those type of situations is bad.

However, if you put variety into the card effects, it may increase group synergy in certain situations, but all that will happen is people, you know, the ones you said ruined the job, will just math out the Best Card and it will revert back to being expected to fish for the best card and only settle for the worse cards when your rng runs dry. Which is how it was played a the highest skill level then, and how it still plays.

---

Agree on MP refill. Make it an effect of the Divination / Whatever AoE, done. Now back to the real shambles, which we've covered on other threads before.

The Spread and such we had before let us save a card for later if we figured we'd need it. Once set up it was there, and it wasn't luck because it'd come up and be tucked away if we figured we'd need it. Divination? Rename it Shared Fate, make it an AoE effect cooldown, done. We have Minor Arcana as a ST effect booster button already.

"Best Card" <- This is a bad argument against having the other cards too and you should feel bad.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

the point is having varied buffs ,having MP restoration and damage mitigation can be tied to rng as long it also tied in different part of the kit for on-demand situations as you said.

the fact you still playing fishing for cards doesn't mean its a good thing,in fact it what made those changes to ast in the first place.
and even if people will still try to do that,SE could have found a much better implemented solution to reduce fishing.
hack even with the new system it could have been implemented better to make each card have equal value without making them have the same buff.

in the end ,if you hate rng so much then again go be a scholar or white mage,the point that people love ast is the varied buffs and its ties to rng.

---

Nah I'm good, AST is actually fun now. It's nice and busy with the new cards. Timing the cards with burst windows and setting up Divination and Sleeve draw windows is a far more engaging loop then fire and forgetting Chain Stratagem every 2 mins or simply spamming Glare until you need to heal something.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Boomsmash

Agree on MP refill. Make it an effect of the Divination / Whatever AoE, done. Now back to the real shambles, which we've covered on other threads before.

The Spread and such we had before let us save a card for later if we figured we'd need it. Once set up it was there, and it wasn't luck because it'd come up and be tucked away if we figured we'd need it. Divination? Rename it Shared Fate, make it an AoE effect cooldown, done. We have Minor Arcana as a ST effect booster button already.

"Best Card" <- This is a bad argument against having the other cards too and you should feel bad.

---

Like it or not there was always a "Best" card. Damage is the most important metric in optimized play so whatever card gave the most damage is seen by many to be the "Best" card.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandedblade

Like it or not there was always a "Best" card. Damage is the most important metric in optimized play so whatever card gave the most damage is seen by many to be the "Best" card.

---

Everything you said makes it self evident what is wrong with your argument.

There was always a "best" card. There will always be a "best" card. But only if you are a worshipper at the optimal > all altar. That is the sum total of your lack of understanding of our objection.

We don't give a flying fuck about optimized play. We want engaging play, we want enjoyable play, we want variety to not be bored out of our minds. Most play is NOT optimal. It is improvisation, it is using what works best at that particular instant and that is *gasp* NOT ALWAYS MORE DAMAGE.

Optimal. Does. Not. Matter. Non-janky does.

One of the most fun parts about the "less optimal" playstyle of 4.X AST was the fact that it was a gamble. In the world of XIV 95% of all content is scripted, with there being a set path to go, a set group of monsters, a set pattern of attacks from bosses and mechanics. Yes RNG Bole or Ewer were not optimal, but you played the hands you were dealt and when you got the right card for any given situation it felt so god damn rewarding. When you got a bust it felt bad, but so does losing a hand of poker. The highs were high and the lows were low, but it was engaging and fun and never the same thing twice. The randomness gave it charm and the variety gave it flavor.

It feels like I had cable with all the international channels, some were great, some were trash, but it was interesting to see what they all had to show me. Now all I have is local news stations that all tell different versions of the same story all day long. It's predictable and safe and boring.

There seems to be a divide in the AST fan base. Those who value numbers and optimization above all else and don't care about gameplay or enjoyment, and those who enjoy playing the job because it is fun and interesting and offers something different from the other cookie cutter jobs that are straight forward and don't think outside the box.

I got my potency buffs so I am happy for the time being (That is, this is about what I expected out of 5.1). I wish they'd done more to address AST's MP regen but that is about it.
When it is realistic to, however, they really ought to look at the cards.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Brandedblade

And I will continue to express my opinion that the varied cards where not as great as you remember them.

I can somewhat sympathize with the notion of wanting things like DH,Crit and/or Haste cards. But things like MP restoration and damage mitigation should NOT be tied to rng, as those elements are things that need to be on demand to get the most out of. Relying on randomness for such make or break mechanics is bad, no matter how good getting that Bole for the tank who was getting destroyed by a large pull felt. Relying on luck for those type of situations is bad.

However, if you put variety into the card effects, it may increase group synergy in certain situations, but all that will happen is people, you know, the ones you said ruined the job, will just math out the Best Card and it will revert back to being expected to fish for the best card and only settle for the worse cards when your rng runs dry. Which is how it was played a the highest skill level then, and how it still plays.

---

I honestly prefer the old cards to the new cards any day any time and this is coming from a player that has been playing AST since Stormblood came out. Just reading your posts obviously suggests you enjoy less engaging gameplay that is stale, boring and lame which most other people such as myself find not fun. Please Stick to SCH because I do not want your stale opinions having an effect on my class. Honestly get out of here.

I'll play devil's advocate a bit here,and while I don't agree with Brandedblade on anything to do with healers it seems, the people telling him to "get out" and to not play the class, or people essentially telling him his opinion are wrong don't realize the hypocrisy of what they're saying. He has as much right to express his enjoyment of the class as you do to not enjoying it. I think the current system needs to go, if I'm honest, only because constantly swapping targets is asking too much from anyone, and the only remedy to that is macros and I'll be damned if I want to rely on macros with their ridiculous delay, that being said, while they are minor, there are those that prefer the new card system over the old,and their opinions are just as valid.

In short,disagree with him, I know I do, but telling someone to get out or that their opinion is wrong is only making your argument look worse.

"We can accept this fate, or we can defy it, but we cannot deny it."

AST is about fate-bending, predicting and twisting events to one's advantage. Surfing RNG was the core concept. Playing the cards, delaying or changing them. The job quests go through the meaning of the cards, it's the entire spine of the class. Have they rewritten and re-recorded all the voice acting for those quests to reflect the new "Everything is a damage boost" philosophy?

Until they do, I will continue to take issue with those who feel this is the way AST is supposed to be.

Nope! Even the references to Royal Road are still present.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billythepancake

snip

---

true but telling someone to take a different job in the same role cause he doesn't like the job concept is actually logical and valid to tell him especially when he says hates rng based mechanics which the job is known for.

he may be entitled to his opinion but in a debate ,you either prove your statement or refute others and provide examples and reasons behind each claims and that is simple as that, so claiming his opinion is wrong in an argument is understandable especially when you refute his opinion.

while i do appreciate your opinion billy, the fact is that he disrespected someone cause he cared too much for AST and to me that is shameful and wrong and the moment he did it he lost any value in his opinions as far as i concern.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by CrimsonGunner

true but telling someone to take a different job in the same role cause he doesn't like the job concept is actually logical and valid to tell him especially when he says hates rng based mechanics which the job is known for.

---

Equally as valid as telling someone who does not like current AST to play WHM or SCH.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Billythepancake

I'll play devil's advocate a bit here,and while I don't agree with Brandedblade on anything to do with healers it seems, the people telling him to "get out" and to not play the class, or people essentially telling him his opinion are wrong don't realize the hypocrisy of what they're saying. He has as much right to express his enjoyment of the class as you do to not enjoying it. I think the current system needs to go, if I'm honest, only because constantly swapping targets is asking too much from anyone, and the only remedy to that is macros and I'll be damned if I want to rely on macros with their ridiculous delay, that being said, while they are minor, there are those that prefer the new card system over the old,and their opinions are just as valid.

In short,disagree with him, I know I do, but telling someone to get out or that their opinion is wrong is only making your argument look worse.

---

I'm not denying people's opinions about it but the moment you Mock the reason people enjoyed the class with "Optimal" Reasons or mock how I feel about the class that I fell in love with, you don't get any sympathy from me.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LariaKirin

Equally as valid as telling someone who does not like current AST to play WHM or SCH.

---

never said it wasn't as equally valid if that was your point :) but i guess u can understand why advocating that might be bad for your statements.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Haxaan

One of the most fun parts about the "less optimal" playstyle of 4.X AST was the fact that it was a gamble. In the world of XIV 95% of all content is scripted, with there being a set path to go, a set group of monsters, a set pattern of attacks from bosses and mechanics. Yes RNG Bole or Ewer were not optimal, but you played the hands you were dealt and when you got the right card for any given situation it felt so god damn rewarding. When you got a bust it felt bad, but so does losing a hand of poker. The highs were high and the lows were low, but it was engaging and fun and never the same thing twice. The randomness gave it charm and the variety gave it flavor.

It feels like I had cable with all the international channels, some were great, some were trash, but it was interesting to see what they all had to show me. Now all I have is local news stations that all tell different versions of the same story all day long. It's predictable and safe and boring.

There seems to be a divide in the AST fan base. Those who value numbers and optimization above all else and don't care about gameplay or enjoyment, and those who enjoy playing the job because it is fun and interesting and offers something different from the other cookie cutter jobs that are straight forward and don't think outside the box.

---

This was precisely what I loved about AST.

Healing in most other MMOs is reactive. Bosses dish out a lot of damage, target random players, and so incoming damage has to be triaged, healers have to use mana efficiently, and react to players taking damage unexpectedly.

But because FF14's boss fights are so tightly scripted, once they are solved, the only things a healer reacts to are their party's mistakes. If you have a competent party that doesn't go swimming in every AoE circle, then healing is really boring. In stark contrast to tanking and DPSing, which get more engaging as your skill level increases and you learn more about how to optimize your rotations, healing gets less engaging as your skill level increases, because you have no decisions to make while healing, and your DPS rotation is braindead-easy and cannot be optimized.

AST's old card system mitigated some of that with its randomness. Yes, you probably always wanted Balance. When you didn't get Balance, that was where AST had to make real decisions, on the fly, reacting to unpredictable circumstances. Depending on the situation, sometimes you might Spread a Bole or Ewer just in case. Sure, Spire was useless, but that problem could have been more easily solved by fixing Spire, rather than gutting the entire card system.

Now, there are no decisions to make, and nothing to react to. Every card is Balance.

Don't think the shields are substantial enough for how much mp they cost relative to what u can do in diurnal with the same mp. Mp issues with this job compared to when I play WHM are really annoying. I also wish the aspected benefic and helios shield would stack! Maybe I want the tank to have a bigger shield cmon qq They feel so small compared to what a scholar can do. I know that's the scholar's thing but why have nocturnal sect at all if it's not going to be as usable as diurnal. And I still dislike new cards to old but oh well.. I keep getting the wrong seal 6-7 times in a row and it's infuriating. Never got so annoyed with the old system. So far as personal dps goes I don't care, I just want to feel like my support is good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by MitsukiKimura

I honestly prefer the old cards to the new cards any day any time and this is coming from a player that has been playing AST since Stormblood came out. Just reading your posts obviously suggests you enjoy less engaging gameplay that is stale, boring and lame which most other people such as myself find not fun. Please Stick to SCH because I do not want your stale opinions having an effect on my class. Honestly get out of here.

---

Well unfortunately. I'm here to stay now. I love the 5.1 changes and it put the final nail in the coffin for sch and whm for me.