Anyone else concerned by the extremely low skill ceiling?

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

There is Never a Middle Ground Friend
Either you are Left, or you are Right.

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I know you're joking but if age has taught me anything that there's so much truth in your joke it hurts.

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Originally Posted by Dirwen

The few elitists will always think their opinion matters more than the majority of casuals. So few actually have savage and ultimate clears only proves the point. The thing that baffles me is PvP not many enjoy it but SE keeps forcing people into it by adding rewards to it constantly.

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Adding incentives to pvp =/= forcing people into it. I mean, are they supposed to just not offer rewards for the people who enjoy pvp just because not everyone does? What kind of logic is that?

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Originally Posted by Videra

3.0 Bard was the best iteration of Bard, you know it to be true.

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Ooo I do not agree with that at all. The whole bowmage thing was just... jarring, after 50+ levels without it. I was not at all sad to see that go.

Feel like skill trimming is also becoming a factor in this as well, devs seem keen on keeping the amount to a certain number prolly for controller users, but... that in turn simplifies the jobs a tad. I'm sure they're going to continue doing it every expac as well so there may be a day where things end up being like single button combos and such. Also got to keep in mind that devs try to please as much as possible but when push comes to shove, they'll almost always go for the larger group of folks in need, and the number crunching hardcore players are fairly small compared to the rest, not to mention western mindsets can be pretty different to the JP community, so it's a very difficult job for the devs.

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Originally Posted by Hanayumi

Feel like skill trimming is also becoming a factor in this as well, devs seem keen on keeping the amount to a certain number prolly for controller users, but... that in turn simplifies the jobs a tad. I'm sure they're going to continue doing it every expac as well so there may be a day where things end up being like single button combos and such. Also got to keep in mind that devs try to please as much as possible but when push comes to shove, they'll almost always go for the larger group of folks in need, and the number crunching hardcore players are fairly small compared to the rest, not to mention western mindsets can be pretty different to the JP community, so it's a very difficult job for the devs.

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It's not any easier to have more than 30 skills on a keyboard either. Especially if you want them to be accessible to use.

Uhm Do you guys remember 2.x jobs? They were the simplest iterations of the jobs ever. Some nostalgia speaking here surely. DPS jobs have pretty much retained their complexity from heavensward for the most part, just some pruning here and there of weird and unnecessary skills. Say what you will about the current healers though.

I'd agree on a whole if people didn't wipe on simple dungeons, if the first trial in shadows wasn't a wall for a good chunk of players. If people didn't cheese the item level so they DON'T get the best raids in the game. - numbers/viera raids- Yes it's true the savage raids were tuned down abit after the over tuning that killed the raid scene, but looking back in the history of this game I'd say we're at a good spot. Again I dunno if it's getting THAT easier since people still die, wipe, and get walled now.

I do kinda wonder if this is a self inflicted wound by the community after going on the forums/Reddit and hearing how the vast majority of the player base sucked(hyperbole of course but still what was said), didn’t use their whole kit, how much they “enjoy kicking bads” the devs saw what was being said and took it to heart and decided to make “the bads” less bad.

Maybe we should all take this as a listen to cut down on the hyperbole?

Low skill ceiling? This is the first patch of the expansion. The devs outright admitted that they cut savage boss HP by 15% for this first tier instead of the usual 10% in prior expansions to see how the playerbase handles the job changes/new boss mechanics (and it might be a good thing that they did because E2S is considered the major wall this expansion). I'd wait a bit until 5.1/5.2 before passing judgment.

Either way, raising the ceiling up won't kill the game either. The community survived Ozma and Nidhogg. The community survived Shinryu, Hashmal, Tsukiyomi, and Thunder God Cid. All of those were considered hard by normal community standards back in the day, and yet the community was able to adapt to them. To think otherwise is a bit telling about how little we trust other people on this side of the ocean.

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Low skill ceiling? This is the first patch of the expansion. The devs outright admitted that they cut savage boss HP by 15% for this first tier instead of the usual 10% in prior expansions to see how the playerbase handles the job changes/new boss mechanics (and it might be a good thing that they did because E2S is considered the major wall this expansion). I'd wait a bit until 5.1/5.2 before passing judgment.

Either way, raising the ceiling up won't kill the game either. The community survived Ozma and Nidhogg. The community survived Shinryu, Hashmal, Tsukiyomi, and Thunder God Cid. All of those were considered hard by normal community standards back in the day, and yet the community was able to adapt to them. To think otherwise is a bit telling about how little we trust other people on this side of the ocean.

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I might be wrong, but my guess they had to cut it, because tanks contribution to the overall DPS has fallen by 10-14%.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

I might be wrong, but my guess they had to cut it, because tanks contribution to the overall DPS has fallen by 10-14%.

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I don’t run a parser(PS4 player) but are you sure about this? I remeber logging in the moment 5.0 hit and going to a striking dummy and going more Holy Spirits/Royal Authories over 10k than I ever did before antedoctial for sure but meh

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Originally Posted by Zanarkand-Ronso

There is Never a Middle Ground Friend
Either you are Left, or you are Right.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

From what it seems like people are saying either “screw the raiders they are just elitists!” Or “screw the casuals they are just bad” are there any kinds of changes that can be made to the game to satisfy both parties?

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It’s absolutely possible. Look at what they are doing to crafting in 5.1. :) Ishgard restoration looks like a great way for newer crafters to have fun, while also understanding crafting better in the process...with the addition of the new UI and cross class removal. As for hardcore players, they stated they’ll be making balanced changes to actions to make it less easy to HQ endgame recipes. In turn, both players getting what they want.

I don’t know why people have this “you’re either team casual or team hardcore!” mindset. It’s really silly. We are all in this together, we all pay for the game, so we shouldn’t dismiss one another like that. This forum is to help make FFXIV the best mmo out there, not the worst.

Geez, reminds me of the Twilight movie days. Fan girls constantly going “TEAM JACOB” nonstop. :confused:

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Originally Posted by SaitoHikari

Low skill ceiling? This is the first patch of the expansion. The devs outright admitted that they cut savage boss HP by 15% for this first tier instead of the usual 10% in prior expansions to see how the playerbase handles the job changes/new boss mechanics (and it might be a good thing that they did because E2S is considered the major wall this expansion). I'd wait a bit until 5.1/5.2 before passing judgment.

Either way, raising the ceiling up won't kill the game either. The community survived Ozma and Nidhogg. The community survived Shinryu, Hashmal, Tsukiyomi, and Thunder God Cid. All of those were considered hard by normal community standards back in the day, and yet the community was able to adapt to them. To think otherwise is a bit telling about how little we trust other people on this side of the ocean.

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I want to debate some of those sense a good chunk of the playerbase cheeses the que for some of those to not fight them. My debate? That people didn't get used to them and just does everything within their power to not deal with those bosses.

All I want, honestly, is to be able to perform in a way that when other players see me they can easily come to the opinion that "Hey, that player is really good." As it stands, I think it is difficult to do that because the performance of an average and skilled player is very similar(from a strict gameplay perspective not encounter mechanics etc.). I think that the gap between the average player and a skilled player is very narrow and I wish the job gameplay design allowed more reward for those who pursue mastery.

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Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge

All I want, honestly, is to be able to perform in a way that when other players see me they can easily come to the opinion that "Hey, that player is really good." As it stands, I think it is difficult to do that because the performance of an average and skilled player is very similar(from a strict gameplay perspective not encounter mechanics etc.). I think that the gap between the average player and a skilled player is very narrow and I wish the job gameplay design allowed more reward for those who pursue mastery.

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The problem in the past when the skill gap was larger people would insist that everyone play towards the higher end of the skill gap calling everyone who doesn’t bad, the devs saw that and thus we are in the situation we are in now.
Ideally I agree, people who play great should have much better performance the, it shouldn’t however become an excuse for looking down on others and even excluding them from casual content.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

The problem in the past when the skill gap was larger people would insist that everyone play towards the higher end of the skill gap calling everyone who doesn’t bad, the devs saw that and thus we are in the situation we are in now.
Ideally I agree, people who play great should have much better performance the, it shouldn’t however become an excuse for looking down on others and even excluding them from casual content.

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Perhaps the solution should be gatekeeping then. Have a quest that requires multiple trials to be able to unlock a savage dungeon. I think it's ridiculous that the only thing you need to attempt the hardest content is ilvl which is obtained from faceroll content(outside of ultimate which is every 9 months if we're lucky). But I digress, I am not a game designer, I am only a player. But it seems to me that the skill ceiling needs to go up, and there needs to be more pre-savage content that is actually challenging in order to allow players to reach a certain skill threshold before attempting savage.

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Originally Posted by DinahDemiurge

All I want, honestly, is to be able to perform in a way that when other players see me they can easily come to the opinion that "Hey, that player is really good." As it stands, I think it is difficult to do that because the performance of an average and skilled player is very similar(from a strict gameplay perspective not encounter mechanics etc.). I think that the gap between the average player and a skilled player is very narrow and I wish the job gameplay design allowed more reward for those who pursue mastery.

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The only ones who will notice, since parsers aren't technically within the rules, are those who are already good themselves. Its pretty easy to notice when people aren't doing things correctly, if you know what to look for. Its also pretty easy to tell when stuff is dying slower than normal, or when a healer is just standing there, or just spamming cure.

On the flip side, those who don't really know what they are doing will often mistake average play for "wow, that went really smooth, dps was amazing" on runs that some of us will find awful. I've seen it happen in raids fairly often.


The thing to me is... If you need other people noticing how good you are to make you feel like you are accomplishing something, then I think you aren't setting goals right. You should set goals for yourself, and pat yourself on the back if you accomplish said goals.

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Originally Posted by Samsta

Uhm Do you guys remember 2.x jobs? They were the simplest iterations of the jobs ever. Some nostalgia speaking here surely. DPS jobs have pretty much retained their complexity from heavensward for the most part, just some pruning here and there of weird and unnecessary skills. Say what you will about the current healers though.

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This is false. BRD has zero complexity in ShB compared to how it was played in SB. Alongside its complete lack of being a BRD, the lack of complexity and rewarding nature of the job has been a complaint from those who enjoyed optimizing it in SB.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Wait then for liquid man from alexander, this guy will deliver you a proper pain. xD
Just one thing, do him without watching youtube guide.

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I think you need to realize there are several degrees of difficulty and we are dangerously close to only having extremes. either extremely easy which is slowly seething into savage or extremely difficult which is what Ultimate is.

And I don't really do the whole watching Youtube guides. I like to do things blind. It's part of the fun, not to mention the first "editions" are usually crap.

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

I don’t run a parser(PS4 player) but are you sure about this? I remeber logging in the moment 5.0 hit and going to a striking dummy and going more Holy Spirits/Royal Authories over 10k than I ever did before antedoctial for sure but meh

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Yes, tank dps (proportionally) has fallen by about 10-15%. The tank mastery trait changes how STR/Attack power scales for tanks, making each point of STR worth less per point than other jobs. The only reason you didn't notice it at the beginning of the expansion is due to the fact they slapped roughly an extra 500 STR onto your accessories. (each accessory was around 51 STR pre-expansion (without str meld), each of the i400 accessories now has 171).

If tank mastery wasn't affecting damage output, all the tanks would be doing an extra 1-2k dps than they are now given their current STR value at 470. Its a super oversimplification of it, but think of tank mastery as giving you both the defense buff and damage penalty of old tank stance, only its constantly on, which doesn't surprise me much that they reduced the max HP of the first raid tier's bosses by 15%, since they were probably seeing how tank & healer dps would play out given the overhauls they did to both.

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Originally Posted by MariaArvana

Yes, tank dps (proportionally) has fallen by about 10-15%. The tank mastery trait changes how STR/Attack power scales for tanks, making each point of STR worth less per point than other jobs. The only reason you didn't notice it at the beginning of the expansion is due to the fact they slapped roughly an extra 500 STR onto your accessories. (each accessory was around 51 STR pre-expansion (without str meld), each of the i400 accessories now has 171).

If tank mastery wasn't affecting damage output, all the tanks would be doing an extra 1-2k dps than they are now given their current STR value at 470. Its a super oversimplification of it, but think of tank mastery as giving you both the defense buff and damage penalty of old tank stance, only its constantly on, which doesn't surprise me much that they reduced the max HP of the first raid tier's bosses by 15%, since they were probably seeing how tank & healer dps would play out given the overhauls they did to both.

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The deception in game for the tank mastery trait actually says it gives “a bonus to damage dealt based on your strength attribute” are you saying this is a mistranslation or a typo?

It seems to me as a newer player... A large part of the problem of no "difficulty" comes not from the fights themselves... Savage raiders, parsers, and elites die and wipe on savage raids all the time.. The thing that makes them easy is death has no penalty whatsoever...

I often watch high end raiders on twitch wipe a fight they already completely know 4+ times and then clear. The problem is that dying 4 times in a row does nothing to you except make the fight take 15 minutes longer because you'll just jump off the platform as soon as a clear looks unlikely.

4 man dungeons are entirely too easy though and there is no fear of death (which is incredibly rare anyways) through any point in the game at all...

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Originally Posted by SerLuke

The deception in game for the tank mastery trait actually says it gives “a bonus to damage dealt based on your strength attribute” are you saying this is a mistranslation or a typo?

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I think its a super badly worded description than anything to be honest, especially when you consider how bad some of the other descriptions in the stat menus are (and how badly worded some tooltips in general are). I dunno Japanese so can't comment if its a bad translation though.

"A bonus to damage dealt" I believe is just a badly worded description for "Your Strength affects your attack power at a certain rate."
Considering it also states "Conveys a bonus to your maximum health based on your Vitality attribute" when there was no change to Maximum HP when SHB dropped despite an alleged 'bonus'. I believe the wording on the trait is simply a bad choice to say "Tanks's stats scale differently than other jobs."

But hard math that groups like the Theoryjerkers have done doesn't lie. Tanks are scaling weaker on STR now than before SHB. Which given statements Yoshi-P has said in the past where he's mentioned he feels tanks are doing way too much damage in SB, doesn't surprise me much they nerfed tank damage.

Another super quick example to highlight the nerfed damage from tank mastery is compare Afflatus Misery and Inner Chaos. When AM crits + DH, it does nearly 10- 20k+ more damage than IC, despite IC having even more potency than Afflatus. (920 vs 900, even without factoring in SE's 10% damage bonus pushing IC into the 1000 potency range before the auto crit + dh factors in.)

Even tho I have given up hope on jobs feeling unique again and balancing them accordingly to their skill floor/ceiling.

I just wish they removed rewards/achievements from uncynced content.

Mounts/top tier equipment/tittles are not required to complete MSQ anyway.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

This is false. BRD has zero complexity in ShB compared to how it was played in SB. Alongside its complete lack of being a BRD, the lack of complexity and rewarding nature of the job has been a complaint from those who enjoyed optimizing it in SB.

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Notice the words "pretty much" and "for the most part". Bard is just 1 job.

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Originally Posted by Saintly

I just wish they removed rewards/achievements from uncynced content.

Mounts/top tier equipment/tittles are not required to complete MSQ anyway.

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I disagree. After running multiple EX Trials and seeing multiple dogs go to people who have spent most of the fight judging whether the floor is soft or firm, it's nice to be able to go back into those fights overpowered and spend less time in them (unless they're Byakko and Suzaku). Plus it makes me less likely to put my blacklist into proper use (like I did when I actually did those EX Trials when they came out. It's frustrating when people make the same mistakes and don't listen to very helpful advice. More so when those same people get the dog mount. I don't like carrying people and like it even less when they're rewarded for it).

At least Ultimate will never be unsyncable. So those weapons and titles will always be exclusive to those who earned them.

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Originally Posted by Dadbod

It seems to me as a newer player... A large part of the problem of no "difficulty" comes not from the fights themselves... Savage raiders, parsers, and elites die and wipe on savage raids all the time.. The thing that makes them easy is death has no penalty whatsoever...

I often watch high end raiders on twitch wipe a fight they already completely know 4+ times and then clear. The problem is that dying 4 times in a row does nothing to you except make the fight take 15 minutes longer because you'll just jump off the platform as soon as a clear looks unlikely.

4 man dungeons are entirely too easy though and there is no fear of death (which is incredibly rare anyways) through any point in the game at all...

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Dying = less DPS from weakness debuff, which means a higher chance of wiping to the enrage timer. This naturally becomes less of an issue as time goes on and gear gets better. Early in the tier even a single death is enough to deny a clear.

XIV is actually stricter then a lot of MMOs with how handles death as the nature of several of its mechanics require that the entire team be alive for them be executed properly, otherwise it'll snowball into even more deaths or a wipe.

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Originally Posted by Dadbod

It seems to me as a newer player... A large part of the problem of no "difficulty" comes not from the fights themselves... Savage raiders, parsers, and elites die and wipe on savage raids all the time.. The thing that makes them easy is death has no penalty whatsoever...

I often watch high end raiders on twitch wipe a fight they already completely know 4+ times and then clear. The problem is that dying 4 times in a row does nothing to you except make the fight take 15 minutes longer because you'll just jump off the platform as soon as a clear looks unlikely.

4 man dungeons are entirely too easy though and there is no fear of death (which is incredibly rare anyways) through any point in the game at all...

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1 death can absolutely ruin a first week savage run. Weakness is a huge debuff that cripples your dps severely. As time goes on and people get better gear yeah it becomes less of an issue. I dunno what penalty you want on top of healer having to spend mana and gcd and swiftcast to ress, player having his dps ruined and some mechanics wiping the party if everyone is not alive.

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Originally Posted by Dadbod

It seems to me as a newer player... A large part of the problem of no "difficulty" comes not from the fights themselves... Savage raiders, parsers, and elites die and wipe on savage raids all the time.. The thing that makes them easy is death has no penalty whatsoever...

I often watch high end raiders on twitch wipe a fight they already completely know 4+ times and then clear. The problem is that dying 4 times in a row does nothing to you except make the fight take 15 minutes longer because you'll just jump off the platform as soon as a clear looks unlikely.

4 man dungeons are entirely too easy though and there is no fear of death (which is incredibly rare anyways) through any point in the game at all...

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Dying loses you time which is a HUGE penalty, are you suggesting we should have permanent penalties beyond this?

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Originally Posted by Shinklet

The people who play this game in general want it to be easy, grind-free, one shottable.

There's a post in this very section asking for hunt immunity for christ's sake. People keep forgetting that MMORPGS used to be one of the most demanding, time consuming, most-research required genres in gaming and not dress up doll simulators.

uwu look at my qute scween shot

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But at least we got GCBTW, right. Sinking time on MMOs to obtain items, hah, what is this, 2008?

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Originally Posted by Samsta

Uhm Do you guys remember 2.x jobs? They were the simplest iterations of the jobs ever. Some nostalgia speaking here surely. DPS jobs have pretty much retained their complexity from heavensward for the most part, just some pruning here and there of weird and unnecessary skills. Say what you will about the current healers though.

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Saying that Heavensward complexity for DPS jobs is the same as current is so hilariously false that I question whether you even played a DPS job during Heavensward. The game was significantly different then, both in how higher end content operated and in how the classes worked for maximum output.

I've been concerned with it for some time, with 4.x honestly feeling like a perfect balance for skill floor and ceiling. It's especially painful if one's tanked in Heavensward raid content when it was current, since that was a lot of work for tanking, but felt rewarding. Now all the tanks feel the same with the exception of GNB, and even that isn't as complex as 4.x DRK. I miss having a higher ceiling for tanks especially.

Who knows, a lot of people I hear don't like the overall feel of the changes, so it's a waiting game to see what 6.0 brings to everyone.

To me it seems 5.0 felt like a soft restructuring for the majority of the game.

We're talking no TP, Tank stance reworking, the healers being changed, aggro changes, pruning.

The way I see it is from this point onwards can only get more advanced since we're pretty much near the point where you have to be braindead to not understand this game at a casual level.

I'd be worried if the ceiling became even lower since I'm not sure how else you could do that past the game shoving your actual rotation in your face like a PVP combo.

People still die in LoTA so idk?
I see people crying a lot about the lack of difficulty in 5.0, but add a very difficult dungeon in EX roulette and you'll see the same players dropping instantly because "they don't want to waste their time in said content". I look at you Orbonne Monastery (which isn't even remotely hard).

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Originally Posted by Novae

I see people crying a lot about the lack of difficulty in 5.0, but add a very difficult dungeon in EX roulette and you'll see the same players dropping instantly because...

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Not likely, there are many people playing the game. When you see opinions flip flop it's because different people are sharing their opinions. You can't treat an entire community as a single entity.

Skill ceilings used to be higher because the number of people playing were much lower, but now due to console players and more people getting into PC gaming... there is no longer the 'elitist majority' in MMOs anymore. If MMOs want to make money today, and they are a BUSINESS after all, they have to cater to the majority of players- which today, are casual players who just want to jump on after work and run a few dungeons and log off. They don't want to turn the MMO into their 'other job' where they have to spend hours studying and trying to build the perfect rotation to meet the newest meta or grind for days to acquire the current BIS gear. Interesting how we still have people bemoaning their bygone days of early WOW... they still cannot accept that MMOs have changed, and what 'used to be' for MMOs is no longer the case.

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Originally Posted by Enjuden

Saying that Heavensward complexity for DPS jobs is the same as current is so hilariously false that I question whether you even played a DPS job during Heavensward. The game was significantly different then, both in how higher end content operated and in how the classes worked for maximum output.

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You wanna back this up by something? The amount of skills is roughly the same, some skills like 1 button dots were removed but it's not like the dps rotations differ that much from heavensward, if anything they feel better now because of aforementioned reason.

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Originally Posted by PyurBlue

You can't treat an entire community as a single entity.

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Never said that. I'm pointing at people crying about how easy 5.0 is, which is mostly a forum/notevenareddit thing. Same people claiming they rather take the 30 min penalty then wasting their time in Orbonne with randos, but asking for more difficult content.
I just don't understand what they really want? More difficult content for everyone and having to do deal with DF/PF or just difficult content for their private little group of friends, founded by the whole community?

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Originally Posted by Novae

Never said that. I'm pointing at people crying about how easy 5.0 is, which is mostly a forum/notevenareddit thing. Same people claiming they rather take the 30 min penalty then wasting their time in Orbonne with randos, but asking for more difficult content.
I just don't understand what they really want? More difficult content for everyone and having to do deal with DF/PF or just difficult content for their private little group of friends, founded by the whole community?

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Most people I see, me included, are not asking for more difficult content, I have savages and ultimates for that, what I want is something for my class to do in normal content. I want to be able to do more then spam broil/art of war when I go do dailies. From what I understood, that's what the thread was supposed to be about. Not about the content, but the classes you do the content on not having enough depth to them.

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Originally Posted by KageTokage

Dying = less DPS from weakness debuff, which means a higher chance of wiping to the enrage timer. This naturally becomes less of an issue as time goes on and gear gets better. Early in the tier even a single death is enough to deny a clear.

XIV is actually stricter then a lot of MMOs with how handles death as the nature of several of its mechanics require that the entire team be alive for them be executed properly, otherwise it'll snowball into even more deaths or a wipe.

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Maybe I worded my post poorly.. I don’t mean there isn’t a penalty for being raised during the fight... I mean there is no penalty for wiping the fight... you just try again.. and again.. and again and there is no penalty for failure at all except for the penalty of not succeeding...

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Originally Posted by Dadbod

Maybe I worded my post poorly.. I don’t mean there isn’t a penalty for being raised during the fight... I mean there is no penalty for wiping the fight... you just try again.. and again.. and again and there is no penalty for failure at all except for the penalty of not succeeding...

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Yeah? So it's a problem we can start the fight again after failing? What do you propose, a lock out if you die? That's pretty absurd.

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Originally Posted by Dadbod

Maybe I worded my post poorly.. I don’t mean there isn’t a penalty for being raised during the fight... I mean there is no penalty for wiping the fight... you just try again.. and again.. and again and there is no penalty for failure at all except for the penalty of not succeeding...

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The penalty for wiping a fight is wasted resources and time. Lots of lots of time that adds up as a whole especially if your team really starts failing at about 7 min in or so.

It sounds like you want to do content like Baldesion Arsenal where the penalties for dying are far more strict due to the unconventional ways to raise and the threat of being kicked out by certain mobs.