I actually meant I scrapped an exposition on Red Mage and Mystic Knight, about how they are, play off one another and their context in 14. But now that you mention it, maybe I will make an idea for it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mimilu
Concept for a Magic Melee DPS
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09-21-2019, 05:17 AMEloah
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09-21-2019, 06:30 AMKatie_KittyWho's saying that? I haven't seen anyone say that. I've seen people say they play RDM because it's the closest thing to a mystic knight that we have, but literally nobody says the job should me melee-centric. What we're saying, or at least what I'm saying, is that RDM should have more than just a tacked-on melee combo and more than just a worthless tacked-on cure.Quote:
Originally Posted by dinnertime
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09-21-2019, 07:06 AMBrightshadow
Mystic Knight would be cool, I loved in FF9 my duo of Vivi and Steiner because they were a powerful combo. I Would love for a Mystic Knight to work something like that in this game. Elemental attacks and a Frontline caster spellblader. They can even share gear with Dragoon's
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09-21-2019, 09:52 AMDuelle
Since people don't want to see off-topic arguments (can't say I blame them), I'll leave the relevant part visible and put everything else in spoiler tags.
I'd have no problem with Mystic Knight having a party-wide damage mitigation buff, though the overlap with Tactician makes that somewhat risky. AoE weapon enchants as the job's answer to Battle Litany/Brotherhood is something worthy of consideration, though that would really make me wish stuff like Foe's Requiem would make a return.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
Two things here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
1) The current design's melee combo can be replaced with one or two spells that consume the balance gauge to give you access to Verflare/Verholy for a net gain or 2-3 skill slots that could accommodate anything. The system I've suggested is non-equivalent seeing that Verspells in the writeup have a 20y range, meaning a RDM can finish their combo if a telegraph pops that forces them to moves out of melee range. It also means target swaps (I know these don't often happen in this game) don't interrupt you much if you're in the right part of the combo (assuming Clarity proc, Verspell => Balestra => weaponskill if Dualcast didn't proc).
2) If the sword is to see any significant use (read: more than once every 45 seconds), the job would have to stand in the front lines.
Something to keep in mind is that you still have instants that can be used from range. Both Verdia and Jolt also also have the chance to proc Dualcast (since my version of Dualcast can proc from spells that don't have cast times), in addition to Swiftcast + spell of your choice. As a last resort, you could spam Scatter to fish for procs (admittedly awkward), though that's not going to generate the best results by design (see my comments on Jolt below for a possible solution to this). Also note that my write up's AoE rotation is entirely usable from range. That's also by design.
Between? The instant-cast buff is attained after the second weaponskill in the combo. You essentially have the choice of ending the combo in an instant spell (that generates gauge, deals higher damage, and can be used on a target outside of melee range) or Death Blossom (which increases target's damage taken from your spells for 30s).Quote:
You've created Dragoon where Piercing Talon also gains a melee combo bonus (or High Jump and Mirage Dive are on the GCD), that doesn't make it any less token as a ranged attack if it's jammed between two melee attacks for it.
So you'd do nothing while out of melee range? How about casting Scatter and hoping for a Dualcast proc (I even gave it the same cast time it has in-game)? How about spending gauge on Jolt (which can also proc Dualcast)? How about spending Swiftcast if you have it available (which can also proc Dualcast)? Hell, toss an ally a Vercure, since that also can proc Dualcast. Unless the mob has one of those lengthy telegraphs, you shouldn't be that strapped for things to do out of melee range.Quote:
Except in this case you've given the ranged attack(s) a cast time, so even with Dualcast (whose proc chance you've reduced, meaning even more time hard-casting at a distance), no melee would actually use it in any realistic scenario where they're forced to be at-range.
That said, this is actually something I've been mulling over, as I once had a stand-in for Jolt with a 100% change to proc Dualcast but was told it made the design unfocused. I could bring it back by changing the write-up's version of Jolt to 100% proc Dualcast, reduce the gauge cost to 15/20 and nerf its damage to 100 potency. So thanks for the feedback.
That was sort of the point. The writeup is a redesign of the job. I don't expect SE to actually use the writeup, but it does illustrate that there's more to RDM than spell spam, token sword use and needlessly jumping around the battlefield.Quote:
but you've so fundamentally changed it from the current RDM (you have about 7? of the same skills, most of those are in-name only and then rest are utilities non-essential to the rotation) that it's a completely different job to start with.
Try saying that to a Mystic Knight whose damage options vanish the moment the enemy gets out of melee range. The design I'm calling for would be magical sword strikes that interact with the system the OP suggested (elemental resource bars that feed an "ultimate" mode). There's no spell use involved as we know it; this thing isn't casting fire to enemies 20-25y away, but may have a firebrand mode that alters some of its weaponskills.Quote:
a) Which is, by and large, what you've designed anyway.
And as I've said, NIN's magic is gated behind the ninjutsu recast timer and Ninki. My writeup discourages hard-casting stuff in melee range after lv15, so there's little to relate to with SAM's Iaijutsu cast time.Quote:
Flinging a spell at point-blank range is little different from the act of any other point-blank melee attack -- again, NIN says hi, and SAM is happy to share its cast times.
The difference between having a cure (even a weak one) and having no cures at all is still notable. No, it's not going to save you on fights with strict enrage timers or where misspent GCDs will lead to a wipe, but it's still more than what most other jobs have.Quote:
b) We don't even use Vercure for utility, it's just a means to proc Dualcast during downtime or self-heal when soloing.
You'd need to increase the threshold for difference between white and black mana if you want to go that route, because otherwise you'll hit imbalance the moment you do melee combo => Verflare/Verholy => Scorch => Verstone/Verfire. As it stands, the system is set to bring you within a hair of hitting imbalance, so messing with the amount of mana generated would call for a change in that.Quote:
If it was purely about increasing melee uptime in the current system, you'd be focusing on improving the spells available to Red Mage in order to shift the Mana Economy and increase melee combos per minute.
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09-21-2019, 12:03 PMdinnertimeThen I don't see why Red Mage even needed to be mentioned in this thread so extensively in the first place. Red Mage having more melees? Sure. Saying no to Mystic Knight because Red Mage should be the only one to have magic melee/spellblade on its toolkit? Absolutely not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty
All your post did was derail the thread from an actual discussion about Mystic Knight. -
09-21-2019, 12:08 PMArchwizardI would say it's very on-topic, as I am arguing that your design could be adapted in part for exactly the kind of Magic Melee DPS this thread is discussing, if you would simply stop insisting it's RDM or nothing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
There are enough overlapping skills already in this game that I won't even bat an eye at it -- hell, there's enough that Tactician literally names two of them as skills that should be used sequentially rather than stacked, and that's still not accounting for the alternatives brought by healers and tanks that can be stacked, like Asylum, Temperance, Dark Missionary, etc.Quote:
I'd have no problem with Mystic Knight having a party-wide damage mitigation buff, though the overlap with Tactician makes that somewhat risky. AoE weapon enchants as the job's answer to Battle Litany/Brotherhood is something worthy of consideration, though that would really make me wish stuff like Foe's Requiem would make a return.
Alternately, something that might be even more fitting, a mass EnDrain. Give everyone a health leech as an alternative to mitigation or HoTs.
Let's not get wires crossed here. "More than once every 45 seconds" could be "Once every 45 seconds unless you hit Manafication to bring that down to 20 sec every 2 minutes" or flat out "Once every 40 seconds" and still fit that criteria, which is closer to what we have with Scorch anyway -- but we both know that's not what you're asking for, is it.Quote:
If the sword is to see any significant use (read: more than once every 45 seconds), the job would have to stand in the front lines.
Which brings us back to "you've designed what is, at its core, a melee job."
... Yes, it's at the end of the combo, which means it's right before the next combo. Unless the spell you're casting is Death, there is a follow-up, so its still jammed between two melee skills.Quote:
Between? The instant-cast buff is attained after the second weaponskill in the combo. You essentially have the choice of ending the combo in an instant spell (that generates gauge, deals higher damage, and can be used on a target outside of melee range) or Death Blossom (which increases target's damage taken from your spells for 30s).
Slight aside: Have you considered "Imperil" as an alternative to Death Blossom? It's a skill from FF13 that increased the target's vulnerability to magic.
You have levels in 6 out of 8 tanking and melee jobs. You have experience, so use it.Quote:
So you'd do nothing while out of melee range?
Realistically, at any point you're out of range of the boss as a melee, one of three things is happening:
1) The boss is moving, probably because they have some kind of dash attack. Your best bet is to close the gap as quickly as possible so you can return to comboing, not to stand still hardcasting a spell.
2) Bullet Hell phase. Your best bet is to keep moving and throw what ranged attacks you have that won't stop your run, because if you stop moving for any considerable period, it's very likely you'll die. It's exactly the scenario that would have doomed an unprepared BLM's DPS before ShB, exactly what RDMs gained Reprise for in spite of Dualcast (and bear in mind, without the guaranteed Dualcast, you can't reliably slidecast either), and exactly why every single melee's ranged attacks are instant effects.
3) The boss has some kind of physical impediment preventing you from reaching them with melee for an extended period, like the Ice phase in Thunder God. Assuming the boss isn't completely immune to damage at this point anyway, there is probably something else for you, as a melee, to be doing other than standing around spamming spells on the boss, like wailing on an Icewolf instead.
By design, the number of scenarios where a sheer amount of specifically ranged power is required, particularly of a primarily melee job, is minimal.
So, use an instant to pop Dualcast.Quote:
That said, this is actually something I've been mulling over, as I once had a stand-in for Jolt with a 100% change to proc Dualcast but was told it made the design unfocused. I could bring it back by changing the write-up's version of Jolt to 100% proc Dualcast, reduce the gauge cost to 15/20 and nerf its damage to 100 potency. So thanks for the feedback.
Good luck making us any less of a rezbot in that case.
If you think the availability window of NIN's attacks is relevant to the point I'm making, you're missing the forest for the trees. It doesn't matter if NIN only gets a spell out every 20 seconds compared to your design getting out one every 7.5 seconds -- at the end of the day you're still launching fireballs at point-blank.Quote:
And as I've said, NIN's magic is gated behind the ninjutsu recast timer and Ninki.
Tell that to SMNs when they complain about Physick, tell me how that goes.Quote:
The difference between having a cure (even a weak one) and having no cures at all is still notable
If you went the route of scaling up the Mana gained from the existing Verspells, sure. There are plenty of other ways to increase Mana generation without just buffing the spells that can contribute to imbalance.Quote:
You'd need to increase the threshold for difference between white and black mana if you want to go that route, because otherwise you'll hit imbalance the moment you do melee combo => Verflare/Verholy => Scorch => Verstone/Verfire. As it stands, the system is set to bring you within a hair of hitting imbalance, so messing with the amount of mana generated would call for a change in that.
For instance, introducing new spells that generate Mana more efficiently, as seen with Scorch (and I expect is the most likely way we'll see our combos speed up in the future). Introducing traits like Improved Manafication for other Mana-relevant CDs and effects, like Acceleration. Adding Mana to oGCD skills like Fleche, or increasing the amounts generated by our Mana-balanced spells like Jolt. Introducing abilities to hasten our spellcasting in general.
And if you loathe the idea of buffing casting somehow, you could just straight-up reduce the cost of melee. Tons of ways.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty
Sounds like there's demand for Spellblade then. Why not just let them have it, rather than holding that fantasy ransom to RDM?Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty
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09-21-2019, 05:05 PMKatie_KittyMaybe you would benefit from going back and actually reading my post. I never said what you seem to think I said.Quote:
Originally Posted by dinnertime
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09-21-2019, 05:46 PMWayfinder3FFXIV is heavily wrapped in it's lore so there is a point to be made by having similar disciplines. RDM in lore Enhances their blade with magic to preform combat, without that magic, the RDM is hitting like a BLM with a cane. Thus the core concept of RDM is spellblade and magic and, creating another job with the same distinction would require double dipping as well as contradictions in lore. the only reasonable way of justifying it's existence is that RUM/MYK hale from different shards and as a result developed differently than rdm despite being the same fundamentally. (CNJ and GEO are similar to this as, geomancer is just the eastern version of CNJ in this games lore) RDM also has a unique existence (if i recall correctly, The player, Aya, alisae, and the job quest master are the last 4 know RDMs to exist) as it was created through circumstances that should be impossible to replicate on other shards (The 6th Umbral Era and the Great Flood that would be braved by it's ancestors the Mhach and Amdapori) This is why Alisae is the only RDM you see on Norvrandt as it wouldn't make sense for that discipline to exist there in the same way. sadly, if they did chose to introduce otherworldly versions of RDM from the other shards and dubbed it MYS/RUM, it'd likely just be through name only like Geomancer is for Conjure.Quote:
Originally Posted by dinnertime
Thus it'd likely be easier to just, implement aspects of spellblade and magical mastery into the job thats already capable of it, than justifying a reason for a similar discipline to exist. i bring up Lore because the dev team is very adamant about it, it's the reason classes like SMN and SCH have had a hard time distinguishing themselves from each other and XIV is likely the most world/story driven mmo on the market. It'd also be much easier to just add to RDM these traits than to make a new job thats supposedly the same but more Melee than magic. -
09-21-2019, 06:46 PMArchwizardWhile this is true in that regard, the First does have recognized variations on Thaumaturgy, Conjury, etc by the same names. Of note, flashbacks to the battles of the previous Warriors of Light show Nyelbert and Lamitt using "Ronkan" variations of spells we recognize on the Source. It follows then that not only did the Ronkan Empire manage to create what we believed to be mutually exclusive magical disciplines that were able to coexist (unlike Mhach, Nym and Amdapor), but could have perfected disciplines that we haven't seen on Hydaelyn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
Hell, at one point Renda-Rae jokes about hiring a Necromancer, while the main Necromancer we know on Eorzea, Nybeth Obdilord, is literally from another world.
It is, of course, too early in the expansion to be definitive about anything with regards to the lore, and I expect we'll end up exploring more of the history of Norvrandt through its remainder, possibly including glimpses at these civilizations in their prime.
None of us arguing in the defense of Spellblade have said anything about the jobs being "supposedly the same" -- it's largely an assertion by those like Katie, who baselessly and very presumptuously believe any future melee DPS will "rob RDM of expansion to its melee repertoire." (Which is a hilariously ironic concern considering RDM is literally based on cloning skills from two other jobs already.)Quote:
Thus it'd likely be easier to just, implement aspects of spellblade and magical mastery into the job thats already capable of it, than justifying a reason for a similar discipline to exist.
It'd also be much easier to just add to RDM these traits than to make a new job thats supposedly the same but more Melee than magic.
If anything, "the same but more melee" better describes Katie and Duelle's requests for RDM than other posters' requests for Spellblade.
Spellblade/Mystic Knight/Rune Fencer are different enough from Red Mage that in nearly every entry the Spellblade archetype appears, Red Mage is already there co-existing (including in FF11), in addition to the potential of drawing inspiration from non-classed FF protagonists to fill out its kit (ie the way Gunbreaker did with Squall).
They're about as alike as RDM is to SCH, and less so than Dancer and Bard have historically been.
On the other hand, the lore is constantly being built upon and retcons happen all the time. Hrothgar were never even hinted at before this expansion, and their existence is key to the lore of the Gunbreaker job we just got as a means to explain we're not using Garlean tech. To attempt to justify balance using lore is a horrible system, particularly when the devs' process is more likely to be the other way around.Quote:
i bring up Lore because the dev team is very adamant about it, it's the reason classes like SMN and SCH have had a hard time distinguishing themselves from each other and XIV is likely the most world/story driven mmo on the market.
Besides, SMN and SCH "having a hard time distinguishing themselves from each other" has nothing to do with the lore, it's a carryover from 1.0's coding that the devs can't figure out how to undo.
Bit off-topic, but not actually true; Geomancer isn't simply an Eastern Conjurer. Conjurers live in communion with spirits, while Geomancers use their powers to repel or even subjugate them. Their spells evoke the same elements but in different manners that you can see throughout Stormblood (particularly the Swallow's Compass dungeon), in addition to the job's history as a supportive DPS throughout previous FF games. Many of the requests for a Geomancer are for a magical DPS that uses the earth, wind and water magic that White Mage will never get to with its shift towards Holy magic, such as the spells Quake, Tornado and Flood.Quote:
(CNJ and GEO are similar to this as, geomancer is just the eastern version of CNJ in this games lore)
it'd likely just be through name only like Geomancer is for Conjure.
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09-21-2019, 11:49 PMdinnertimeQuote:
Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty
???Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty
If you mean "I don't want RDM getting overshadowed from getting melee magic" instead of "Only RDM should have melee magic" that's basically the same thing in context worded differently.
Alright, lore again. First of all...they're not as adamant with the lore as you think. They've retconned lore in favor of new things/jobs/races getting added. It's not always set in stone, instead it's a stepping stone, otherwise things would be too restrictive and Red Mage wouldn't even be a thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
Let's talk about what Red Mage even is in the lore. Red Mage is a product of Mhaci Black Mages and Amdapori White Mages who've banded together after being persecuted for causing the 6th Umbral Calamity, however instead of 'borrowing' aether from the land to cast magic like Black and White Mage do, they use their own aether which produces less potent magic but it's to prevent their past mistakes. It's what makes them 'weak' compared to Black and White Mages but this is quite dangerous and can kill them. This is where RDM's spellblade comes into play. The sword and fencing is more of an afterthought as they were experimenting on how to be efficient with using less aether, with the help of some Ishgardian friends with the fencing and their own improvisation, they enchant their sword fighting with the black and white mana they've accumulated. Yes, spellblade (but the RDM mentor actually call it red magic) is part of Red Mage but...it's not something they primarily do honestly and Mystic Knight is much more than that. That and they don't even point out that RDM's sword magic something super unique to them, especially when the job is designed to be so accessible.
Mystic Knight doesn't need to be from a different shard to even be reasonable. You're too concerned that they might be too similar or contradict with lore when the job you're comparing it to something that literally borrows black and white magic. Not only that, Norvrandt has their own version of Black and White magic that it's not out of the realm of possibility that their own version of Red Mage can exist in there, but whatever. Also Red Mage isn't very restrictive as it's not forbidden like Black/White Mage is labeled as and was designed to be accessible so there can be more Red Mages if they want. The art became ancient because people lost interest and faded away but I'm not too sure.
Yes, there's going to be different iterations of the similar art but that's actually realistic because things can either influence each other, borrow from one another or just shared the same idea but found independently. There's Conjury and Sharlayan Astrology being similar to Geomancy, and Thaumaturgy and Conjury being basically Black and White magic except with a different way to take aether and a more safer practice in casting magic, then Allagan summoners actually using the same concept as Arcanima which is basically using math to shape aether into creatures, and Scholar and Summoner being the same in concept is literally not an issue since their main thing is shaping aether. That and Red Mage by itself is the same thing. Some of the arts of magic i've pointed out are actually playable even though they have similar concepts. Yes, all of them are actually tied to each other in gameplay but I'm pointing out the lore here. Mystic Knight and Red Mage's little sword magic being in the same realm is fine and won't hurt the lore.
There's actually so many room open for Mystic Knight in FFXIV, I don't understand why some of you think it doesn't. -
09-22-2019, 01:21 AMKabooa
Summoner.
Hear me out.
Ifrit, Titan, and Garuda are now miniature trances (No Demi Summon) that impact the Summoner directly with a new baseline kit.
Ifrit and Titan are your melee trances.
Melee magic dps. *finger guns* -
09-23-2019, 07:59 AMArchwizard
Back on topic!
I've been pondering mechanics for a Spellblade/Mystic Knight/Rune Fencer/whatever for some time now, and while I have a couple basic ideas as a start, it's still very simple. I'm largely tackling this from the perspective of someone whose experience is mostly with caster jobs, but who has recently been leveling DRK and DRG, so my apologies if it sounds too familiar to start with but there's plenty of room for expansion.
So first and foremost, I do feel somewhat inspired by Duelle's concept for a Red Mage rework, which largely takes the melee combo we already have and increases its uptime. 1-2-3 melee hits, third hit gives a proc that will make reduce the cast time of your next spell a la Dualcast, and your next spell can be a choice between a damage buff (such as Imperil) or a hard-hitting magic attack (TBD). Before we get to branching this is a pretty standard structure for most melee, and not too dissimilar from DRG's Wheeling Thrust/Fang & Claw mechanic.
Secondly, and as I've said several times, there's a plethora of sources we can use for inspiration for a Spellblade in terms of filling out kit abilities:- Commando, Ravager, Synergist and Saboteur abilities from FF13, including Flame/Frost/Spark/Aqua/Galestrike, Blitz/Area Sweep, etc
- Warp Strike and Armiger skills from FF15, as well as the Link Strike ability we copied in the crossover event
- Rune Fencer's Harbor Runes from FF11
- Celes Chere's Rune Knight abilities from FF5
- Rune Knight/Sword Saint (and similar jobs) abilities from FFT
- En-spells from across the series
- Virtually every job with a "Spellblade" command throughout the series
- Probably any with a "Swordplay" ability, since aside from Samurai there is a surprising lack of sword-wielding jobs who actually use those skills
- Some skills from Kingdom Hearts, perhaps?
So for a small sampler platter I prepared:Resource gauge tracks the current Enchantment timer and stocked Runic Charges.
For the time being, consider all attacks in each "Chain" section to be interchangeable within each step of a combo.
Chain 1 attacks:
- Smite: Deal unaspected damage to the target
- Sparkstrike/Thunder Stroke: Deal minor lightning damage to the target and gain Enthunder, causing auto-attacks and weaponskills to chain additional lightning damage to nearby enemies; mutually exclusive with Enfire and Enblizzard
- Nightblade: Deal minor damage to the target and siphon off a percentage of the damage dealt as HP
Chain 2 attacks:
- Flamestrike/Flametongue: Deal fire damage; if used as a combo action, gain Enfire, causing auto-attacks and weaponskills to deal a modicum of additional fire damage and inflict a stacking DoT effect; mutually exclusive with Enblizzard and Enthunder
- Froststrike/Icebrand: Deal ice damage; if used as a combo action, gain Enblizzard, causing auto-attacks and weaponskills to deal a larger amount of additional ice damage and return MP; mutually exclusive with Enfire and Enthunder
- Aquastrike/Liquid Steel: Deal increased water damage to the target; does not interfere with current enchantments
- Blitz: Deal damage to surrounding enemies, inheriting the element of your active enchantment
Chain 3 attacks:
- Galestrike: Deal wind damage to the target; if used as a combo action, gain Quickening, causing your next spell to become instant and reducing its GCD
- Whirlwind: Deal damage to surrounding enemies, inheriting the element of your active enchantment; if used as a combo action, gain Quickening, causing your next spell to become instant and reducing its GCD
Spells (5 sec cast time apiece):
- Imperil: Deal minor unaspected damage and increase target vulnerability to your magic damage for a modest MP cost
- Banish: Deal heavy unaspected damage to a single target for a high MP cost
- Alterna: Deal moderate damage to the target and diminishing damage to nearby enemies for a heavy MP cost
For each use of a finishing spell, the user gains a Runic Charge. Upon accumulating 3 Runic Charges, the user has access to one of two Finishing moves:
- Ars Arcanum: After a cast time, unleash a devastating multi-hit melee attack on the target
- Aetherial Slice: After a cast time, unleash a wave-motion attack against enemies in a cone before you
Gap closer:
- Warp Strike: Throw an aetherial blade toward the enemy and teleport to it, dealing damage to the target; 30 sec CD
--> Improved Warp Strike: Allows the accumulation of charges on Warp Strike, allowing it to be used twice in succession
--> Link Strikes: Allows Warp Strike to be used on allied targets as well, restoring the target's HP and causing your next Warp Strike within 15 sec to critically hit
Ranged attack:
- Strike Raid: Instantly toss your weapon at the target in a spinning slash before summoning it back to your hand. 20% chance to gain Quickening in the process.
Other oGCDs:
- Breaker Blade: Deal Earth elemental damage damage and extend your current enchantment's duration
- Tempered Saber: Increase personal attack power and accuracy for a short duration
- Endrain: Enchant your allies' weapons, causing all weaponskills and spells to siphon off a percentage of damage dealt as HP
- Runic Shell: Create a barrier, absorbing magic damage received by all allies for a brief duration to charge your own MP
Rough idea is:
- Chain Smite -> Flametongue -> Galestrike -> Imperil to open or keep debuffs up
- Chain Smite -> Liquid Steel -> Galestrike -> Banish as your core combo to build up to Ars Arcanum
- Weave Icebrand in place of Flametongue/Liquid Steel when Flametongue's DoT stacks to its maximum
- Chain Thunder Stroke -> Blitz -> Whirlwind -> Alterna for AoE damage to build Aetherial Slice
--> Alternately, Thunder Stroke -> Liquid Steel -> Galestrike -> Alterna in two-targets
- Spam Strike Raid at range unless a proc comes up to cast a spell
- Nightblade to recover, since Bloodbath won't really be an option with all this magic damage now will it
Again, plenty of room for expansion and I would love to hear others' ideas or critiques. All names are placeholder (though I do like the idea of a Water attack inheriting the benefits of other skills).
I can see a Spellblade wearing the same Maiming/Slaying gear as a Dragoon, for a more Knightly feel to its armor than MNK/SAM/NIN. My question at this point is what kind of weapon it would wield -- likely some kind of sword, but there's still some wiggle room there. You could go with Hand-and-half swords to represent its fluidity between styles sort of like Alisaie before she switched to RDM, or call back to its more Middle Eastern outfit in FF5 and say curved swords -- sabers, scimitars, falchions, dao, khopesh, shamshir, etc -- like BLU did in FF11. -
09-23-2019, 08:53 AMAtamisLate to the party here, but I just don't see why this has to be an issue. They are always mangling classes, or streamlining them depending on how much you like the current class, so why can't certain classes play similar to others? I can see certain classes being a sort of offspec to other classes, or retain playstyles some people love on a class while being able to fix that same playstyle that other people despise something of.Quote:
Originally Posted by Arete-Nomos
I'll just take NIN as a example. Some people detest the mudra system, other people really like the complexity it adds to the class, and they both tend to agree they need more damage but some people want to remove the mudras to offset it and bring the damage up.
What if instead of such drastic changes, an in between class was added that was essentially just NIN without the mudras? Its seems to be a common excuse that "X can't be added because its too close to Y" but it seems like it would be a better excuse to have them add X because its kinda like Y but without xyz.
In this case I would add the "Assassin" class common to the Tactics series along side the Ninjas.
They would retain the sneaky rogue-like playstyle while also combining some of the monks aesthetics, wielding Katars (some of the models mink already has) and could be the inbetween class for people who like the monk playstyle but not the monk aspects and people who like the rogue aspect but not the naruto nonsense.
https://i.imgur.com/ORNT1Va.jpg
The same thing can be said for Bards who want to be Rangers, and the Dark knights that want to be Cloud esque "Soldier" jobs. -
09-23-2019, 10:43 AMPatronasCharm
I'm down for a Magical Melee DPS, I made a concept a while back and recently updated it calling it a "Mystic Fencer." You can find it here
LeoLupinos made an awesome concept too, you can find his here:http://forum.square-enix.com/ffxiv/threads/366700-Source-Blader-A-FFXIV-Original-Job?p=4678414&highlight=Source+Blader#post4678414
I also made one with a Gunbalde (Spell Fencer) when that was a hot topic. And to be honest, the reason I love GNB so much is because it's pretty close to a "Spellblade" since their attacks do some fun BOOM BOOMs, not as flashy as I'd love for it to be, because I want to see "Elemental" attacks on a sword and or weapon.
Let's hope we get to see one some day. -
09-23-2019, 02:25 PMWayfinder3
While Katie may have convey this feeling a bit brashly, i completely understand why she, and others feel RDM is worth discussing here. I truly understand the enthusiasm for those that want these jobs but, you also need consider why RDM is brought up here, because RDM would also be brought up if we were to talk about a job like Sage. FF has many jobs and ffxiv has typically taken attributes of jobs and combined them, examples being:
Berserker(FFV) and Viking(FFlll) to our Warrior.
Time Mage(FFV) to our Astrologian this one is interesting as AST originally had access to Haste/ga(old arrow/spread arrow but players often complained about this buff as it would misalign rotations do to not speeding up ogcd cooldowns), slow isn't feasible unless it's on mobs, it does have gravity, Lightspeed(a form of haste) and astral stasis(LB3) is lore wise rewinding time. i believe the devs have also hinted at AST being their attempt at time mage but i can't recall where.
Ranger(FF lll/V) to our Bard if anything, our bard is more a ranger than a bard as edward used a harp as a wep in FFIV and that didn't seem feasible enough to make 2 seperate jobs out of.
Mystic Knight(FFV) to our Red Mage. The only difference here is that while both jobs have the ability to use magic, the mystic knight imbues any of the spells learned as sword attacks adding magical elements to them (flare sword), this however is something RDM in concept, should be able to do. the enchanted melee combo is imbued with unaspected magic which is the same wording used for Ruin, Broil, Malefic, Holy, Darkness, Flare, and Red Magic in the world of XIV. this means in a later expansion, instead of giving us a new job thats thematically similar to red mage but their variety of spells are just sword strikes; we can just improve on the RDMs kit to implement these things. XIV version RDM as far as i know is the first to use unique sword magic in the form of Fleche and Contre Sixte which have the benefits of being physical hits that are obviously magic and that easily be explored more. i understand why you feel mystic knight could justifiably be it's own job because of the potential to be different, but RDM is already doing similar things you're listing, and all i'd see is a job thats basically rdm but instead it's fire strike, thunder strike, and aero strike instead of Verthunder, veraero, and verfire. some of you guys also mention buffs like Enfire, and Enwater as reasons for a Mystic Knight, but these were spells RDM also had access to in FFXI and are just adding magic to sword strikes which RDM already does.
I personally think it'd be easier to work Flare sword/ Holy sword etc... into RDM(Alisae has shown that Red Mage is capable of using very powerful sword magic and imbuing alot of aether into her blade), than it would be to make an entirely new job for the sole purpose of expanding on that one aspect of which the RDM already has. it's the same reason we don't need a job like Sage because the best thing about it is that it can use WHM, BLM and summons. RDM doesn't have the ability to use summons so that is the only real distinction between the 2. does this mean we should get a sage job? I say a hard no.
there a much better choices that i'd personally would like to see that are different enough from the jobs we have. Necromancer, Mime, and chemist are 3 very interesting to implement jobs that aren't thematically similar to other jobs we currently have.
This isn't me saying, you can't have it or it would be a bad idea and the devs would never do it. this is me saying what you're asking for can be used to improve on an existing jobs appeal instead of asking for a whole new one. It's not uncommon to hear players complain that 14s RDM is very shallow and missing a lot of depth. i often call it an expansion of 2.0s BLM as i feel this version of RDM is just style and lacking a lot of substance. These things you want to give away to a new job can be used to give RDM the substance the community actively feels it's missing.
This is why i think RDM is indeed relevant to the dicussion of a Melee spellblade job.
This is a public forum, and as long as the topic isn't completely off topic. everyone's input is welcome regardless of if you choose to humor it. RDM IS RELEVANT TO THE DISCUSSION OF A NEW MAGICAL SPELL BLADE MELEE DPS saying it isn't is like saying NIN/ROG aren't relevant to the discussion of a new Thief job(even if the thief job was a ranged that used throwing knives or however else people like to spin these difference) and we don't need a new job for every little distinction that someone decides to expand on. it's ok to have some of the current jobs pull aspects of other possible jobs to prevent job bloat and more balancing nightmares. we already have enough melee dps as it isQuote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
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09-23-2019, 03:49 PMSaberMaxwellMy problem with this whole thing comes up with the fact that chaining any and all spellblade fantasies to Red Mage's specific fantasies ends up with arguments like between me and Katie in the Invisible RDM thread regarding Red Mage's healing / support kit. I didn't pick Red Mage to be a backup healer, I picked it because it's the only spellblade DPS in the game, so when she wants Red Mage's healing / support kit to be expanded (which inevitably means it's going to be worse at actually doing DPS), I'll fight tooth and nail against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
To boil the issue down to its bones, I suppose the problem is I didn't pick Red Mage because of Red Mage. Yet here I am, stuck in all of Red Mage's trappings because it's the closest I'll get to an actual Spellblade.
You are right, however: asking for a Spellblade when RDM is around is a bit like asking for Time Mage while we've got Astrologian. -
09-23-2019, 04:24 PMWayfinder3although it'll be hard pressed, you'd need to voice to SE for your disapproval of these healing abilties (granted thats apart of the rdm identity and personally, i would keep vercure and expand on the white magic support. verraise is a different story) however, RDM is first and foremost a dps, it'll be balanced as one and as such will be entitled to be closer to BLM and SMN. the fact that it isn't will result in uproar and even the jp community is desperately trying to get RDM some buffs because they don't understand why it's so weak. I don't see the need for a 5th melee, i think 4 is the absolute limit as Samurai's would likely fade away if they got even more competiton.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
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09-23-2019, 05:08 PMSaberMaxwellYou make good points, but it's not the healing itself that's the problem per say. It's the idea that my class fantasy for a Spellblade is crammed in with someone else's for an expanded healer kit. I can say I want nothing to do with healing at all, and you and Katie are right in saying "but that's Red Mage's identity." So it feels like I'm stuck with an undesirable identity just because it's the closest I can get to a Spellblade.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
I honestly wonder sometimes if Red Mage should have been a healer from the outset. The way healers in this game work, it would be much easier to accommodate a "hybrid role" class fantasy. -
09-23-2019, 05:43 PMWayfinder3RDM is about where it needs to be, it can receive tools such as party mitigation to fill that WHM identity, if the job were a Healer if it were a healer, it'd just be 4 buttons with different elemental names that are all basically just Glare while in addtion, players would complain about the woefully underwhelming DPS it would have for job thats a 1/3rd swordsman and Black mage. So making it a dps was the smart choice but the rotation is just very empty. while adding more melee will be more of an issue for mechanics.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
as for a redesign i'd prefer consistent and planned melee phases down to the GCD(not like how it is now with it being tied to BW mana which is slightly RNG dependent) if the RDM melee combo was a 60sec Weaponskill combo that scaled it's cooldown like GNB's gnashing fang combo, i'd love it more. manafication can be changed to immediately reset the cooldown, refresh position skills, and the 10% damage up instead of what it does now. Then they can focus on making the the casting phase more interesting besides B W B W Melee Restart. They can have the mana build to a powerful GCD like (Flare Strike) that can be stored for a big spicy melee single target hits or (Salvation) a Melee AoE Light nuke. (these wouldn't break combo and share the same 1.5 gcd as E riposte and E Zwerchau) we'd also get a Melee combo AoE version that shares a cooldown with the single target combo but could be a bit different, regardless though, each time you reach mana cap, instead of sitting at 100, you can get to 50 to get 1 use and 100 to get another. So just don't stay at 100, hover around 50, until you've planned your uses of these skills and save 100/100 for pot windows or add phases where you can dump. it's very similar in design to Xenoglossy, but unlike xenoglossy, this skill isn't timed and is what our mana is leading too. Acceleration now goes to 60secs and gives us 50 gauge and a bit of mana so think of it like infuriate.
After using EMoulinet, you gain a stack similarly to sleeve draw or sword oath. Using Emoulinet would put the single target combo on CD, do AoE damage, and you get 2 stacks which would change to a secondary stack. then allow you to use E moulinet 2 more times before getting 3 total stacks then you can expend the stacks for Meltdown(of FF6 fame) so your 60sec melee combo(ST) is the Erip> Ezwe> Eredo>H/F>Scor and the AoE would be Emou X3 and Meltdown(stronger at 3 targets). niether cost B/W mana so you can use them when they're up and Impact can become Meltdown. you also have Flare Strike and Salvation niether of which break combo to really put out the damage.
Since RDM would have some really good utility, along with making Embolden Neutral damage(even if it needs to be put to a static 5%) we can introduce a Tether/Dance partner mechanic. Since Enfire and Water would be worthless in a game without elements. I'd make them Bravery and Faith. Bravery increases the damage of your target party member while applying Faith to you which increases the magic damage you deal. while active, it could increase the amount of BW mana by a predetermined amount to help push the flow. I prefer it to be a Stance that RDM can set at the start similar to dance partner(you don't refresh it with dances but instead it refreshed every 30secs while your mana is balanced and punishes RDMs for feeding too much on one side or, i wouldn't mind if it functioned similarly to Dragon sight but this feels like the most boring way of implementing it.regardless, it needs to be potent though. RDM should be contributing RDPS similarly to DNC and NIN and this buff feels like an aesthetically accurate way of doing just that. though not perfect as this is just rough conjecture. i've just given you methods that can add more Spellblade melee, More buffing through Sword magic, and a more compelling method of the rotation simply by adding a few more moving parts.
i feel like there is so much that can be done to implement this spellblade identity that we all want at the end of the day. the dev team just needs to understand that Stormblood Red mage was playing it safe. now the job can expand into more interesting gameplay. alot talk here about more RDM melee combos is completely missing the idea that RDM could just get more isolated Melee Hits. This way, you don't need to be in melee range more than you need to be with the current version. But you still get the feel of being a spellblader and caster. RDM has access to Black Magic, White Magic, and Melee proficiency. There is alot of potential to make an interesting job and we shouldn't be looking to find replacements that suit our taste just yet. if RDM is still doing this BW melee combo eventually nonsense by 7.0. then i agree, it's time for a new adaptation of the magic melee concept -
09-23-2019, 06:15 PMArchwizardThe objection I had was that Katie's point was completely off topic, and verged on opening a dialogue about reworking Red Mage in a thread about concepting a new job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
If she had gone into any other thread discussing a concept for a new Melee DPS and said "We shouldn't have any more melee jobs until they expand on RDM's melee potential," it would be a complete non sequitor and tossed out for taking quite a logical leap with regards to RDM's design future.
The only reason it was humored so long in this thread was because the title nebulously mentioned a Magic Melee DPS -- even without specifically discussing skills or playstyle that would infringe on Red Mage in any way, repeatedly stating that its very existence was a threat to Red Mage.
That's not feedback, that's just claiming the sky is falling and that the subject is forbidden.
I choose to no longer debate Red Mage's design (or the pointlessness of headcanon) in this thread. OP asked for ideas in concepting a new melee DPS, not reworking Red Mage.
Not really. FF11 had Rune Fencer and Red Mage simultaneously as wildly different jobs in completely different roles, the former being one of the alternate names of a Spellblade job.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
By contrast, Astrologian is in itself an expansion of and effective rename to Time Mage. Concepts like "Berserker", "Viking" and "Ranger" are largely hollow jobs known only for one gimmick, or having certain stats or equipment proficiencies, and would each be difficult to expand into a full job on their own. I wouldn't ask for a "Magus" or "Devout" either because they're literally made just to be suped-up versions of other jobs.
To say that Spellblade/Mystic Knight/Rune Fencer falls into the same category is to completely fail to understand the job. Which I doubt, given you yourself said you largely play Red Mage to fulfill the separate Spellblade fantasy, not for Red Mage itself.
The problem with Wayfinder's argument about combining the Red Mage with Spellblade is that they're independent concepts as-is, with enough design clout behind them to make two separate jobs, as has been done in the past -- Red Mage still has plenty of room for expansion purely in the magic department that it hardly even needs to touch on adding new melee skills (which as I explained would actually be detrimental to the job at this stage). If we attempt to push two job concepts together that would actually have depth on their own, you end up with a disjointed abomination that plays exactly like a mishmash of two jobs and doesn't know what it wants to be. Push more melee skills into a caster job and you'll end up not with an elegant hybrid, but a job trying to have the best of both worlds and failing to achieve either.
Case in point, two camps that want separate things from Red Mage -- one for it to be the first caster with every element and support skills, one for it to be a melee hybrid, both simultaneously complaining their side feels shallow. If anything deflating RDM in this regard can only help add depth to whatever remains.
We already have enough complaints as-is about Summoner and Scholar for similar reasons: they each retain elements of the other which can feel out of place -- for lack of a better word, "clunky" -- as a player.
Doubtful, largely because of what we ended up with for Scholar. Throughout previous entries Scholar and Red Mage have had something of an overlap wherein both would offer a mix of White and Black Magic; with Scholar covering that same fantasy in a healing role, Red Mage would have to have been greatly set apart, which was easier to accomplish by putting the two in different roles -- which goes back to being relevant to my above point, as a Melee DPS role is largely a separate role from a Caster DPS.Quote:
Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell
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09-23-2019, 06:54 PMWayfinder3Couple things, 11 is a very different game than 14. 14's combat design requires that jobs be able to do the same things amongst their roles. this means, Rune Fencer, Mystic Knight, etc... wouldn't be this vastly different job from the actual melee dps in the game. instead, it'd just be a new flavor of MNK, DRG, SAM, and NIN, that happens to be thematically similar to RDM. 11 didn't have this issue so the comparison can't be made. proof of this claim is that every jobs utilities and kits are all fundamentally similar in this game, all tanks have invuls, all melee have gap closers and weak defensive cds or none at all, Healers kits mirror each other skill for skill except their unique gimmicks, all ranged have a troubadour equivalent. casters are the exception to this and thats only because BLM stubbornly won't get a raise. raise is currently the biggest issue plaguing casters so thats not even a good thing that the role is different in this way. in 11, RDM COULD actually substitute a healerQuote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
this means your new spellblader wouldn't be allowed to do alot of what you're hoping it can do and would instead just be another melee dps(we have 4 already) with weak or no defensives and a gap closer as well as a gimmick. the problem now comes in, regardless of how this job feels to play or if this gimmick is fun. If it doesn't do anything, people will perpetually dislike it. Look at SAM as proof and, you're asking for another job that'll invalidate SAM or get invalidated by NIN, DRG, and MNK. it's not worth it imo and, improving RDM seems like the better way of doing this instead of giving the melee dps role 5 jobs when it at best can only have 2 slots. you're also claiming the only way for them to expand on RDM is through magical ranged combat only but thats not entirely true either. they can expand on the melee dps nature of RDM without overstepping it's place as a caster dps by simpling making the melee combo refined and precise, my previous comment mentions a efficient way of adding new melee to RDM without comprising it's position as a ranged.
THe Summoner and Scholar example doesn't apply here very well because these were 2 seperate concept/jobs with nothing alike being tied to one base where as, fundamentally. RDM can easily stand in as the avatar for all other spellblading jobs because spellblader as itself is just a concept, it doesn't imply anything more than magic with a sword. Nobody here has asked for anything unique from this spellblader that RDM can't do, they just want another spellblader. Summoner and Scholar aren't remotely similar in concepts and the devs have openly stated regret in treating them as they did. Im not trying to say red mage monopolizes the spell blade position, im saying, the amount of jobs in this game is getting to become alot and we don't need to add another job to expand on a small concept that RDM can fill.
eventually, this game will have to stop adding new jobs. this holy trinity limitation means that the more jobs we get, the more jobs need to be able to clear content, which intern means more homogenization in what jobs offer. Look at the jobs as they are now, compared to Heavensward especially tanks. nearly pruned dry -
09-23-2019, 07:36 PMDuelleI'd say it's more that there's a concern SE will just simply leave RDM where it currently is and give everything being suggested or asked for to Mystic Knight, which is something I don't put outside the realm of possibility.Quote:
Originally Posted by dinnertime
In terms of lore, I'll agree that stuff can be retconned or added to. My go-to origin for Mystic Knight would be the Allagans, since Phlegethon sticks out like a sore thumb compared to the other bosses in Crystal Tower. Since aetheric limitations are already a thing (see: SMN), you could use that to explain why player character Mystic Knights can't do things like room-wide Abyssal Slashes or Megiddo Flames. If we were to go the dual-wield route suggested by the OP, you could also say that our puny bodies can't successfully channel the amount energy needed to bring about Mystic Knight combat into one blade, which is why PCs have to use two swords instead. I had different ideas for a Mystic Knight design, but it is entirely possible to use Phlegethon as a sort of base for the job.
Here's some barebones concepts to show why I disagree with you:Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
Using the OP's suggestion as a starting point, Mystic Knight wields twinswords and shifts between 3 stances. Each stance is aligned with two elements (fire & earth, ice & water, thunder & wind), with the primary element affecting auto attacks and weaponskills. oGCDs include things that I call "off-hand strikes", which are attacks using the off-hand blade that take on the effects of the secondary element and have different properties depending on which stance you have active. For example, one of these strikes primes the target(s) to take more damage from a follow up weaponskill (off-hand strike that applies an earth debuff, which becomes a molten rock debuff that deals DoT damage if followed up by a certain fire weaponskill). The token ranged skill (which I call "sonic boom but with swords") also changes properties depending on which stance is active.
As of right now, the gameplay loop would be to activate a stance, then use weaponskills + oGCDs to generate a resource. When the resource caps, the Mystic Knight gets a signet related to the stance. This is their cue to swap to another stance (I'm thinking of adding a penalty for staying in a stance for too long). The goal would be to cycle between the three stances, get their signets and use that to activate a mode that reduces the GCD for all weaponskills (and possibly reduces or eliminates the cooldown of oGCDs?) for a duration determined by the number of signets active. Kinks have to be worked out and there's likely going to be changes (like coming up with a way to use up signets on stuff outside of the super mode).
An alternative would be to have it swap through elements the way MNK shifts through Raptor/Coeurl/Opo-opo forms, but via its weaponskill combo finishers. This I admit sounds a lot more attractive if we want to focus on abilities that change depending on which element you have active. In this version you'd also have a skill that shifts you between two different elemental rotations composed of the primary elements (fire, ice, thunder) and secondary elements (earth, water, wind). The only issue is that I'm very tempted to give this version skills that offer utility depending on which element is active, though it's the sort of utility SE doesn't use for anything (a skill afflicting the mob with Slow if you're attuned to earth, but stuns the mob if attuned to thunder). For the sake of simplicity, we could just trim down the number of elements the job has access to.
The other stuff:
The gameplay would still consist of spell spam until you reach an arbitrary number on the resource bar, so yes, I would still have a problem with it.Quote:
Let's not get wires crossed here. "More than once every 45 seconds" could be "Once every 45 seconds unless you hit Manafication to bring that down to 20 sec every 2 minutes" or flat out "Once every 40 seconds" and still fit that criteria, which is closer to what we have with Scorch anyway -- but we both know that's not what you're asking for, is it?
That said, if the devs increased the frequency of the melee combo, I'd take it. I wouldn't be entirely kind to it, but I would also recognize it as a step forward.
That's a very questionable stretch of logic. Even ignoring that, you're still casting a spell after it if Dualcast procs.Quote:
Yes, it's at the end of the combo, which means it's right before the next combo.
Death Blossom in FFXI reduces magic evasion, which was close enough on a concept level. It also has name recognition (hence why NIN's AoE knife attack being called Death Blossom was so baffling to me, specially if you take the Japanese name of that ability into account). I could use Imperil for another ability though, so I appreciate the suggestion.Quote:
Slight aside: Have you considered "Imperil" as an alternative to Death Blossom? It's a skill from FF13 that increased the target's vulnerability to magic.
If a boss is moving and you know about it, you'll keep up with them to continue attacking. Same thing if they spin around like Construct 7. In such a scenario you're gonna be moving and comboing Quick Thrust => Iron Thorn => Instant Spell unabated. If you proc Dualcast you'll follow that with a spell. That, however, is not the context in which my reply was written.Quote:
1) The boss is moving, probably because they have some kind of dash attack. Your best bet is to close the gap as quickly as possible so you can return to comboing, not to stand still hardcasting a spell.
My original version of Jolt (200 potency, 30 gauge, instant cast, ranged, can proc Dualcast) was in part there to serve this purpose. So it's good that I already had that scenario covered.Quote:
2) Bullet Hell phase. Your best bet is to keep moving and throw what ranged attacks you have that won't stop your run, because if you stop moving for any considerable period, it's very likely you'll die. It's exactly the scenario that would have doomed an unprepared BLM's DPS before ShB, exactly what RDMs gained Reprise for in spite of Dualcast (and bear in mind, without the guaranteed Dualcast, you can't reliably slidecast either), and exactly why every single melee's ranged attacks are instant effects.
Well, yes, add phases are to be handled as expected.Quote:
3) The boss has some kind of physical impediment preventing you from reaching them with melee for an extended period, like the Ice phase in Thunder God. Assuming the boss isn't completely immune to damage at this point anyway, there is probably something else for you, as a melee, to be doing other than standing around spamming spells on the boss, like wailing on an Icewolf instead.
You talked about being out of melee range and how no RDM would attempt to do anything until they were able to close the gap. I argued to the contrary, and you decided to bring up unrelated situations (movement phases taken on an entirely different meaning when you're able to attack and continue your combos) and absolute no brainers (Who would ignore adds during an adds phase?) in an attempt to counter.
Hey, you're the one that wanted guaranteed Dualcast; I'm perfectly happy with it being purely a proc to react to. That said, considering you're spending a chunk of the Aetherblade bar to cast Jolt, that means Dualcast Verraise has a considerably greater trade off than it currently does (delaying the enchanted sword combo by up to 9 GCDs depending on how much Jolt were to cost and whether Swiftcast is off cooldown). I could bump the cost back to 30 if you're that worried about it. Or Verraise could be removed, which wouldn't be a bad idea since I could replace it with a Moulinet-like skill instead.Quote:
So, use an instant to pop Dualcast. Good luck making us any less of a rezbot in that case.
Reducing mana consumption sounds attractive but the tough part is deciding how low. I guess if we were to go this route, making making the melee combo cost 60/60 might work. That cuts out roughly 4 GCDs, which I guess is better than nothing.Quote:
And if you loathe the idea of buffing casting somehow, you could just straight-up reduce the cost of melee.
You seem to have forgotten some people came on to FFXIV's RDM expecting a sword & spell hybrid. Especially after how FFXI's RDM turned out. And that sentiment, while not unanimous, has existed since 1.0 was announced (one of the first topics in the FFXIV section of the fan forum I was a member of at the time was a melee RDM topic).Quote:
Sounds like there's demand for Spellblade then. Why not just let them have it, rather than holding that fantasy ransom to RDM?
Just additional melee abilities wouldn't cut it. You need mechanics to support it as well. I think that is a given, however.Quote:
Just adding more melee abilities would not increase the ratio of melee comboing! At least, not in melee's favor.
Adjusting mana gain and consumption might increase the melee combo's frequency, but it does nothing to address the problem I have with the job's gameplay: that the job spams spells for most of its gameplay and that sword use is gated behind a set of numbers on the mana bar. I'll still take it, but I wanted to make my stance on this clear. Needless to say, my write-up addresses that very problem.Quote:
if you were truly interested in 'expanding Red Mage's melee potential,' you'd start by focusing on the Mana economy
I'm not adverse to making adjustments to the current design, but as I said in another thread, to give melee a bigger role in regular gameplay you'd need to give incentives to use melee skills or being in melee outside of 80/80. Leaving everything else alone, you could add a melee skill to use as a opener for spell chains or a second melee combo that does same (I'd probably go with the former). Yes, you'd have to stand in melee range. No, that's not a bad thing. -
09-23-2019, 08:07 PMVendalwind
This isnt a dang rdm rework thread. My god go make your own thread. Especially when the posts start getting as lengthy as they have.
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09-24-2019, 04:55 AMWayfinder3Op said RDM doesn’t count in his opinion as he would prefer something that’s more of the opposite. The very first comment on this thread explains what I’m trying to say. What would make this job mechanically different from the 4 melee dps that we have. I’m not going to even mention RDM. Why do we need 5 melee dps when this game only as 8 slots per raid and at best, 2 of them will be dedicated to melee. Melee dps is one of the hardest roles to balance and currently it’s the most overpowered one. This thread is only concerned with the thematics of a spellblade job but, doesn’t have a meaningful explanation for why we should even get another melee DPS and what that dps would do to set it apart from Ninja Dragoon, Monk, and Samurai.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
Thematically we have 6 jobs that use swords
Dual Swords NIN
Katana SAM
Gunblade GNB
Rapier RDM
Broad sword PLD
Great Sword DRK
Do we really need a 7th sword user that will be the 5th melee dps thats currently tied with tanks as the most bloated role that’s also historically the most tedious to balance, just because you guys want something that can easily been implemented on another job.
Explain what would make this job different from our current melee, what it would contribute, and how it would fit into the balance of the whole role. Will it be Utility, will it be pure or middle road. Explain the benefits of making a melee dps that does magical damage when the last magic only damage buff( contagion) was removed and this game currently and historically favors physical damage. Brotherhood and Embolden still do. This job would be dead on arrival if it game out as a melee dps doing magical damage for no reason, and if it had utility comparable to contagion. It’d make caster comps completely busted and limit the way the job will be used. Nobody would want one unless you’re in a hyper magic comp. RDM would still not play with it but BLM and SMN would love it
There are things that matter beyond how cool a spellblader that does magic damage instead of physical. -
09-24-2019, 06:53 AMArchwizardAnd it's also just one example I can provide of distinction between Red Mage and the (Spell/Mystic/Rune)(Blade/Knight/Fencer) archetype. They're considered separate jobs in 5, 11, Tactics, Record Keeper, Bravely Default, and so on -- and that's only including games with that type of explicit job naming. I would also venture to use FF6 as an example, with Terra as a Red Mage (using curative/offensive magic and light swords) versus Celes as a Spellblade (explicitly called a Rune Knight, who has stronger equipment, largely learns offensive and status spells, and can absorb magic).Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
I can find only one FF game featuring Spell Fencer that doesn't separately have a Red Mage (4 Heroes of Light). That's not something you can say about any of the other jobs you named in your example.
But as you say, the two are separate games. Where in 11 Ninja was infamously turned into an accidental Evasion tank, here it's a pure DPS whose Ninjutsu effects largely resemble the Black Magic the job dabbled in during early titles. As you said yourself, where Red Mage could sub in for a healing role, in 14 it's more restricted by the Holy Trinity.
The gameplay of a Spellblade is expected to be different as well -- that doesn't make it exclusive with Red Mage. In fact, in 11 it was an anti-magic tank, a role that is now occupied by the Dark Knight in 14 -- which was instead a magical melee DPS in 11, so a swap would just bring it full-circle.
All I'm hoping it can do is imbue attacks with elements, for both itself and the party. That's largely doable in 14, and a thread like this is where more would be intended to be hashed out -- if we hadn't gotten side-tracked with defending its very existence.Quote:
this means your new spellblader wouldn't be allowed to do alot of what you're hoping it can do
Quote:
and would instead just be another melee dps(we have 4 already)
it's not worth it imo and, improving RDM seems like the better way of doing this instead of giving the melee dps role 5 jobs when it at best can only have 2 slots.
Nobody here has asked for anything unique from this spellblader that RDM can't do
eventually, this game will have to stop adding new jobs.
And if this were a concept for a caster or a healer, you might've had a point there. Please do take those arguments any time someone brings up Chemist as the "inevitable" next job and only mentions Mix and throwing potions to separate it from the chaff.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
Here's the thing you're ignoring: Nobody is saying the devs have to add a Spellblade today, or even next expansion. Yoshi-P has already said a big part of why DNC got added in ShB was because he wanted to start balancing out the roles we already had (where we only had two ranged DPS), so the general expectation is that next expansion will bring two of either a Caster DPS, Physical Ranged DPS, or a Healer.
You're right: melee DPS is one of the most bloated roles at present. Were there to be a new melee DPS added, it would be at least two expansions down the road after every role is "balanced" again, and who knows what design choices will be made before then, so it's a moot point to go into "well what can it bring to the utility table that any other job can't" when we don't know what the meta will even look like at the time such a job is even being considered.
It wouldn't surprise me if at that point the devs made one just because they got tired of making only ranged roles for 4 years.
Besides, it's not like SAM exactly revolutionized melee either when it was introduced. I still see complaints that RDM was brought in during a time when the casters were already imbalanced.
This thread is literally just about having a space for people to design a melee job with some magic -- OP literally asks if anyone has thought one up. The thread is getting side-tracked with arguing over whether we need one or not; we already know we don't, so quit thought-policing and just let people have their fun, savvy?
You aren't really showing "why you disagree", you're just discussing an alternative concept that would allow your ideas for RDM to go unabated.Quote:
Originally Posted by Duelle
That there are multiple avenues such a job could take only goes to my point that the RDM and a Spellblade could co-exist, and in fact goes to defeat previous points about "robbing potential" from RDM.
Which I expect is the direction that the job will most likely take for advancements in future expansions, especially considering Scorch and Improved Manafication in ShB -- hastening the melee combo little by little.Quote:
That said, if the devs increased the frequency of the melee combo, I'd take it. I wouldn't be entirely kind to it, but I would also recognize it as a step forward.
Semantics, unless you fully expect a possibility of hitting two melee attacks as a starter and being able to string together enough Dualcast procs in a row to spend the next 20 sec purely casting so you have time to step away to deal with mechanics and step back without significant damage loss.Quote:
That's a very questionable stretch of logic. Even ignoring that, you're still casting a spell after it if Dualcast procs.
No, I said that there is no reason a melee job out of melee range for any given period would be in a position to sit still and hardcast a spell for the duration they're at range, and that there are reasons why all of the ranged attacks available to other jobs are instant. Simply giving the job a greater variety of effects it could use at range compared to a dedicated melee is a moot point, since at the end of the day you won't have the time to cast more than a couple times before it becomes a damage loss and will still get more value out of being close-up.Quote:
You talked about being out of melee range and how no RDM would attempt to do anything until they were able to close the gap. I argued to the contrary, and you decided to bring up unrelated situations (movement phases taken on an entirely different meaning when you're able to attack and continue your combos) and absolute no brainers (Who would ignore adds during an adds phase?) in an attempt to counter.
Only because the alternative you provided was hardcasting, though I admit I had missed that Jolt was instant at the time.Quote:
Hey, you're the one that wanted guaranteed Dualcast; I'm perfectly happy with it being purely a proc to react to.
I have not forgotten that, actually -- why do you think we're in this thread.Quote:
You seem to have forgotten some people came on to FFXIV's RDM expecting a sword & spell hybrid. Especially after how FFXI's RDM turned out. And that sentiment, while not unanimous, has existed since 1.0 was announced (one of the first topics in the FFXIV section of the fan forum I was a member of at the time was a melee RDM topic).
In a vacuum, no, being in melee range for a brief period isn't a bad thing, that's how RDM can get away with spending about 7 seconds in melee every minute, especially when they have enough leeway to hold off on jumping in immediately.Quote:
Yes, you'd have to stand in melee range. No, that's not a bad thing.
The problem comes when the job is expected to spend larger swathes of time in melee range, since we have a fraction of the survivability of your average melee. We would be more vulnerable to risky maneuvers than other melee yet just as required to take the same risks to maintain DPS, unless we get lucky with procs. -
09-24-2019, 07:37 AMWayfinder3my contribution to this thread is that, we don't need a new melee job that is worse off for doing magic damage just so that it can give out damage buffs, we can just improve the RDM experience so that we reach a the desired out come. (Elemental status doesn't matter in this game) You could literally argue that Embolden imbues the weps of physical jobs with magic to increase their power because adding fire element doesn't do anything in this game. also FF6 has no job system(Terra and Celes could be considered paladins, Red mages, and rune fencers if you really wanted to and none of them would be wrong) and all of those other games aren't MMOs besides 11 which means the jobs have no limitations in what they can do and thus aren't relevant talking about here. if RDM wasn't apart of the trinity in this game, the job could literally do whatever it wanted and would be able to be this hyper melee spellblader. this thread isn't off topic, there are more angles to job implementation beyond what it would look like. what it does, how it balances, and other ingame similarities are also valid things to consider when designing a job.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
Chemist is a valid option for a new job because there isn't anything inherently similar to Mixing potion from WHM, SCH, and AST. but every person that plays healer knows the job will have a AoE Regen, some sort of shield, a cure 1/2 and healer dome, and a Raise because these are things that all of them share. the gimmick is the full emphasis in this comparison because there is nothing quite like chemist unless we're talking about the Crafter class Alchemist. Right now the whole premis of this thread is that, lets get a melee that does magic dps and is a spell blader. Then we get a random assortment of things like, it can imbue magic to others weps and do elemental strikes.
Im challenging this from a fundamental level,
Imbueing magic doesn't matter in a game where elements don't matter, so it's either a Damage Buff or a Defensive Buff of which, nothing is inherently unique
Doing Magic Damage isn't even a good thing is this game, why get a melee DPS that does magic dps when historically, NIN's Bhav getting changed to magic was a nerf for the job.
Elemental strikes: elements don't matter
I'm not trying to suck your fun away, im handling this like the Devs likely would when discussing a new job. What would this job do IN the context of final fantasy 14 thats different enough to make it a job on it's own. saying mystic fencer, rune fencer, mystic knight etc... was different from RDM in another game thats not FFXIV isn't saying anything when the games you listed aren't HEAVILY limited by the Holy trinity of Tank, Healer, and DPS. -
09-24-2019, 07:53 AMWayfinder3
So lets discuss this Mystic Knight under the lense of FFXIV
Q: What would Mystic Knight be?
A: melee dps that does magic damage and doesn't cast like Red Mage (according to OP)
Q: but why does it do magic damage as a melee dps, what benefit would this give the job, how would positionals come into play, will it have alot like MNK or a little like SAM?
A: IDK
Q: What gimmicks might it have?
A: It can do the following:
Imbue Weps of Party Members with Elements(What effects would these be if Elements inherently don't matter in this game?)
Q: Where would this job place relative to the other jobs in it's Role, Monk, Dragoon, Ninja, and Samurai
A: Since we've decided this job will empower party members, this job will be a utility DPS which will place it around Dragoon, and Ninja
Q: will this job have more utility than Dragoon but less damage similar to Ninja, or will it have less utility than Ninja but more damage akin to Dragoon. what is the target balance in relation to them?
A: IDK
Q: This job has elements very similar to Red Mage, what is the distinction between this job and Red mage beyond the range they fight in?
A: there really isn't as RDM can and has done many of the things these jobs are being sold as in this thread but you're free to tell me some.
Q: How would the Melee Role balance now having 5 dps in 1 role when raids only can take at most 2.
A: Melee dps would for sure need to have 2 slots and this will give additional benefits to dissuade groups from taking 3 ranged roles. Melee dps would need to be significantly stronger which will translate to the role being stronger on average to prevent the 2 worst melees from being outcast. (it's currently the strongest role in the game)
these are just some of the questions that the dev team likely considers when approaching a new job, if we're going to talk about a new melee dps that does magic damage, lets start with these.
Lets assume this is how the job played. This is fine and i can get behind it however, What would the job do in the bigger picture. All of this is just conjecture of how it would play, but none of this talks about it's synergies, it's strengths, it's weakness, it's contribution. It's just an identity and concept given a skeleton but none of the actual meat that jobs require to be realized.Quote:
Originally Posted by Archwizard
edit: alot of the skill names are Keyblade abilities, it feels like you want that as a playable job and are using mystic knight as a vehicle for it. -
09-24-2019, 10:22 AMArchwizardAnd I completely agree. Hence why this thread means to crowd-source those considerations beyond simple aesthetic.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
AST cards were designed as such due to previous attempts to create a Chemist back in Heavensward. Presently the Divination system is more like you would expect to see from a job "mixing" ingredients.Quote:
Chemist is a valid option for a new job because there isn't anything inherently similar to Mixing potion from WHM, SCH, and AST.
Furthermore, SCH is as much a physician as can be expected of the three healer jobs, given its storyline as a plague doctor, simply with magical assistance for dealing with unnatural ailments.
But the point I was trying to make when naming CHM was that the ice-cold perspective of "what does this add, really" would better fit more imminent positions if you're looking to shake up the current paradigm.
Well if that's our limiter, guess we can pack up and say "sorry kids, no other jobs will ever be added, since they only give damage or defensive buffs which all just blend together."Quote:
Imbueing magic doesn't matter in a game where elements don't matter, so it's either a Damage Buff or a Defensive Buff of which, nothing is inherently unique
AST tried the "unique buff" route, it just turned into fishing for flat damage buffs anyway (especially since nobody but BLM actually wants Haste in the first place). Meanwhile RDM's melee-specific buff continues to be a subject of heavy debate.
You're not wrong. Historically the meta has favored melee jobs because of access to physical damage buffs like Brotherhood or Embolden. Assuming at some point one of our other casters doesn't gain a magic-specific buff, this could provide an opportunity for Spellblade to do the same OR, alternately, have a trait that converts physical power into magic power and vice versa.Quote:
Doing Magic Damage isn't even a good thing is this game, why get a melee DPS that does magic dps when historically, NIN's Bhav getting changed to magic was a nerf for the job.
Maybe even a buff that does the same. Just to spitball.
But that's the problem, isn't it? If we get too attached to an imaginary concept as a band-aid on an existing problem, then we flip the situation on its head, where suddenly those in support stop saying "wouldn't it be nice" and start saying "THIS IS NECESSARY, VERBATIM" (not unlike Duelle's RDM concept), and those in opposition then attempt to pick it apart not for its own merits but merely to push those "good ideas" and "fixes" sooner. Plus I'd rather not side-track this thread suddenly discussing an ongoing issue of melee vs. casters.
Fascinated as I am with job design, I'm not too concerned about what niche it fills for the time being, largely because it may not fill that niche at all, and certainly not for some time if it does.
I agree, so much like every other spellcaster in the game, there would need to be more to each element as an identifier. Status effects, resource generation, the works, with each elemental strike as merely a vehicle.Quote:
Elemental strikes: elements don't matter
Which, granting, is actually something that has historically been part of the Spellblade identity -- fusing spells into their weapons to inflict status effects on hit, or harboring runes to increase resistance to particular statuses and damage types. "Leviathan's prepping his ultimate, I better increase Water resistance," etc. I simply didn't want to delve too deep into that aspect since CCing statuses are unreliable at best, and selective elemental resistance is delving a bit far into the tanking pool.
But this is why in my concept I had some elemental strikes grant En-element effects of varying effect and potency -- one for AoE, one for DoT, one for burst and recovery, one to hasten spellcasting.
Yes, and in order to get to the nitty-gritty of complications and support that meat, we need a skeleton first. Polyglot couldn't be added to BLM until it had Enochian, Enochian couldn't be until it had its AF/UI timers; BLM was not complex from the outset.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
This is a skeleton in question -- one I'm not even particularly attached to. If you have ideas to flesh it out, ideas to change the bone structure, or even another skeleton of your own, I am open to suggestions, as is OP.
I'm not saying anything you've said is invalid. They're things to keep in mind going forward, but no concept comes out of the primordial ooze fully-formed, and if it was critiqued this acutely this early in its growth, it would crawl back in. Don't put the cart before the horse.
Literally two.Quote:
edit: alot of the skill names are Keyblade abilities, it feels like you want that as a playable job and are using mystic knight as a vehicle for it.
Literally Strike Raid and Ars Arcanum.
Strike Raid because I felt it was a better name than "sword toss", because I'd already written a particular rule about spells generating a resource and didn't want to make a cheap way around it, and because the idea of teleporting the weapon back fit well as an alternative to Warp Strike.
Ars Arcanum because a name with "Arcanum" felt appropriate to a Spellblade.
Everything else I wrote was from other FF entries. Warp Strike from 15, Imperil and Galestrike from 13, Nightblade from Tactics, and so on. -
09-24-2019, 04:01 PMVendalwind
Given current role to content distribution with 2 melee slots considered as is the intended nature of fight design anyways, melee and healers need more jobs.
Raid content
Tank to slot ratio 4:2 sometimes 4:1 (24 mans)
Healer to slot 3:2
Ranged phys to slot 3:1
Caster to slot 3:1
Melee to slot 4:2
Healers need the next job hands down, after that its a toss up between melee and tanks, but i think tanks is more likely.
My point: another melee is more justified than any other form of dps.
And im fine with rdm comparison in this thread, but the highjack for redmage problems and for redmage reworks is absolutely a highjack. -
09-24-2019, 05:53 PMKatie_KittyYeah no. Melee have enough. And I refuse to accept your suggestion of a baked-in 2 melee standard compQuote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
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09-24-2019, 06:54 PMVendalwindFine refuse. But fair is fair. Two ranged two melee, as the game was originally designed. What if i refuse to accept your refusal? Kek. Melee have filled two slots in 8 mans since the beginning of the game. 4 melee (2 tankz 2 dps) 4 ranged (2 healers 2 ranged).Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty
Original cast was 8 classes perfectly fitting that system. Raid design pretty much always operates best with no more than two melee. Ive zaid before i want hybrid beast master melee based on ranjeets playstyle to be the next job. But i like this mystic knight dual weilder too.
Also to the guy who said swords has already been overdone.... and listed off some classes. Calling a nins knives the same style of implement as drk's greatsword is like calling a lance the same as a bow and arrow.
Pld is sword and shield type.
Ninja is two knives
DRK is a greatsword or claymore.
Redmage is a rapier.
All of those weapons and the styles involved are distinctly different. That said if mild realism is the goal the mage knight should use a long sword and a shorstsword/parrying dagger as dual weilding two swords of the same length is exceedingly difficult and unweildy
Anyways like i said healer needs the next new job. After healer what role then would you give the next job to and why? Whats your rationale? Another tank? Cause another phys ranged or caster would just make their role slots even more congested. Or perhaps you just dont want anymore classes added? I really dont get why people dont like having more choices added to the game. As if that somehow diminishes their favorite picks value.
From a selfish standpoint i dont want another melee. Cause it means more competion for my raid spot as a NIN. But to me both evident in the games original design and current ratios melee is the next best role choice for a new class beyond healer.
Chemist/apothecary really should be the next release tho i hope. -
09-25-2019, 01:35 AMKatie_Kitty"The game started a certain way because it only had certain classes" and "encounters are designed to have no more than two melee" do not mean anything and it certainly doesn't mean melee automatically have a right to be privileged over all other jobs for all time. Going by your own logic, since encounters are designed such that ranged can easily take a melees spot for any and all mechanics, that means melee are not needed at all and a 4-ranged comp should be standard. Additionally, the only reason why people use two melee now is because the shitty job balance in this game made melee the most powerful classes. Take that away and suddenly your nonsense about how "the game was originally designed" just looks stupid.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
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09-25-2019, 02:22 AMRai_TakaraUh, melee is inherently designed to do more dps than ranged on purpose because of uptime. If you can take 4 ranged as optimal the game balance is bad. Double melee, 1 ranged, 1 caster is ideal comp and should be encouraged for the sake of raid balance/design.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty
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09-25-2019, 02:40 AMVendalwindYour answer is devoid of logic and you didnt answer my questions at all about what role beyond healers you would like to see added.Quote:
Originally Posted by Katie_Kitty
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09-25-2019, 04:19 AMWayfinder3Quote:
Originally Posted by Rai_Takara
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
This isn’t actually true, it may be true of ranged physical dps. But caster have historically hit on higher than melee dps do to the fact that cast times are a genuine mechanic like being in melee range.
Black Mage and Summoner were top 3 for all tiers of Heavensward except creator where Machinist was number 1, followed by SMN, MNK, than BLM. NIN and DRG had very potent utility and actually were the bottom 2 in that expac.
Stormblood was the same, SMN and BLM top tier dps over melee with red mage being lower than MNK and SAM but on par with dragoon. Even in ARR, BLM was a top tier dps. So historically, Casters have been the strongest role and in cases where that wasn’t true with MCH in 3.4/5(but was technically still a caster) it was reinstated immediately in 4.0 so this idea of melee being assured 2 slots because they are some how more challenging to play do to being in melee range isn’t true at all. The only reason melees were assured two slots prior to 5.0 was that disembowel was required for any serious group since ranged physical dps needed it and Nothing quite competed with ninja’s trick attack until patch 4.4 when Black mage got buffed so hard. Groups were cutting ninja for DRG BLM SMN BRD comps.
Likewise in 5.0, the only reason why you think melee are assured 2 slots is because SE over buffed the role but this game has always been designed with bring what’s good for you. The duty finder match makes 2 melee and 2 ranged because in ARR there were 3 melee dps and 3 dps that were ranged. That’s the ONLY reason why. Proof of this is evident when you look at the fact that ranged had cast times in heavensward because SE truly classified all ranged as range but now the distinction has been made where physical ranged and magical ranged are subsets of the dps role. Notice the raid finder matches you 2 melee(4 jobs) 1phys R(3 jobs) and 1 magical(3 jobs) this is because of it didn’t have this distinction, you would have 4 melee and 6 ranged possibly matching you with jobs that are missing certain role actions. you should also consider the duty finder would let you take 3 ranged all of which can be bard, raid finder is the one with a distinction and that came about in 3.3.
So this idea that melee was designed to have 2 slots isn’t true, there were just more melee than ranged physical and caster jobs during ARR and even then, it was usually just a product of buffs such as piercing, slashing, and trick attack
Tl;dr history has taught us this about the jobs
2.0 and 3.0 there are 3 melee and 3 ranged and both have equal representation (ranged magical and ranged physical aren't distinctions and don't matter)
4.0 is where the distinction happened, abilities like addle and refresh distinguished magical and physical ranged from each other as separate subsets. this is where the idea that ranged should do less than melee really took form but that only applied to ranged physical. the reason for this is because of 2 things
1. Ranged physical had more utility than any other role
2. ranged physical no longer had cast times that were designed to keep them inline with casters
(this is THE reason why ranged now do less as a design choice, it's because they have NO cast times, not simply because they can hit from a ranged spot. if what you are saying was true, then casters historically would also be weaker but casters has on average ALWAYS been the strongest and hardest hitting role. this changed when Red mage introduced hyper utility to the role and SMN's utility now had to hold wait in comparison to it and BLM but even then, all 3 on average hit harder than the other roles but magic damage isn't very strong in this game when compared to physical damage so this is likely the reason why they were on average very high up)
3.0, 4.0 and 5.0: Melee dps have historically had 2 slots because of the utility they brought, Disembowel gave dragoon a guaranteed slot for years until now and, Trick Attack is the most important raid buff in this games history. to this day jobs rotations are designed to accomodate it and lets not forget, NIN held a huge dominace do to it's enmity tools that no other job had in 3.0, and for a portion of 4.0.
5.0: all 3 subsets of dps have largely unique contributions thanks tot he role action system. furthermore, the party buff system means that SE wants at least 1 of each subset of dps represented in any given raid. thats it, the 4th slot is whatever your group wants to double down on, if SE wanted melee to fill that last slot. melee would have 2 party buffs for a total of 6 party buffs(Vit Dex Min Int and 2 Str) but thats not what it does, it's 1 per role. as long as you take at least 1 melee, the raid is performing as intended
feel free to check fflog statistics on older tiers as thats where i got the information on dps metrics. -
09-25-2019, 05:49 AMVendalwindEffectively these are just differing perspectives on the history of the game. What your saying makes a lot of sense. I dont deny that, but your reasons are all assumptions based on events, not facts (like the one concerning the changes to the duty finder)Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
So I get what your saying, and see that it is understandable, but i read into those same events in the history of the game with different reasoning and come to a different conclusion. At the end of the day its what the developers want and choose to design. But for me personally both raid design and health of the game has me desire an equal 4 ranged 4 melee party comp. Regardless of damage or utility or utility that just adds damage of each role type. -
09-25-2019, 06:03 AMWayfinder3I mean, these aren't perspectives, Dragoon and Ninja are the 2 melee you're referring to that have always taken up the 2 melee slots and thats clearly attributed to the utility they had. the first time this was challenged in patch 4.4, it was proven that there was no disadvantage or punishment for doing 1 melee 1 ranged and 2 casters. these aren't perspectives, this is literally how the game has always been. FFXIV has a meta and it's very easy to look back and see trends as to why things they way they were. you're claiming that this game was designed with a specific comp in mind, despite that not being endorsed officially until 3.3 when the raid finder was implemented. duty finder has never required a specific comp to this day beyond having 1/2 tanks, 2 healers, and 4/5 dps. you can go look at older patch notes for mid heavensward to see what im referring to regarding the raid finder and to this day, the duty finder doesn't require 2 melee.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
on the subject of fight design, this also isn't true. the fights are designed to accommodate 4 jobs in melee range but i'd argue only 3 of those are required to be to melee jobs (2 tanks and 1 melee) that 4th puddle can go to a caster to help them keep up cast and reduce movement and this is what would happen if you brought 2 ranged 1 caster and 1 melee or even 2 casters, 1 ranged, and 1 melee. my point here is that accommodating something and determining what something is design specifically for aren't the same thing, you can't say that having 8 puddles, 4 of which are in melee range are designed that way because the devs WANT you to have 2 melee, you can say that they are designed that way INCASE you brought 2 melee. You can do puddles in E2s without a melee, just put a ranged in a melee spot. the reason 4 spots are in melee range is so groups that wanted to take a 2nd melee wouldn't be completely boned by cucking their tanks.
Even if i were to meet you half way and say that this is my own reasoning. you also can't dismiss katies position by using your own perspective as fact, but then tell me my different perspective is just my interpretation. either my interpretation is the right one and most expert players will reach the same conclusion as i have, or both of our perspectives are logical reasoning by which you can't use either to refute katie. you're going to need something more concrete than your personal feelings on what the health of the game should be when we're talking about the growth of something that has already happened and calming it as fact. -
09-25-2019, 09:23 AMVendalwind
Man here I was ready to let this one go. but oh well time to argue.
Yes. Yes they are, and by stating thats how i viewed Katie's perspectives I thought it was pretty clear I meant for mine to viewed the same way. IN FACT i said it:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
False on two counts. MONK didn't begin with utility, and actually I'm referring to the ORIGINAL CAST. which btw didn't have NIN. NIN wasn't implemented till 2.4Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
Again wrong on a few counts. First It absolutely was challenged pre 4.4 because meta comps aren't what im talking about. Meta is one thing, Im talking about fight design, and general party comp. Not cherry picking the single perfect setup. The game has had, and still has very glaring balance flaws. That doesn't mean it was "designed" with the meta comp in mind. In fact mentioning previous meta comps is literally entirely in consequential to the subject at hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
And of COURSE the duty finders weren't locked to two melees. cause that way more options and freedom is enabled and people can play around with other comps, makes the game more fun and more customizable and free, but again the state of the party finders and their imposed limitations has no correlation to the games intended raid design and party comp design. (note it was also made that way to aid wait times)
You literally just proved my point but just offered a differing perspective. Here let me go through the exact same order of analysis you did but conclude different things at each step with a different couple pieces of anecdotal evidence:Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
The fights are designed to accommodate 4 jobs in melee range so I'd argue the fights are designed with 4 melee specifically in mind. However of those 2 melee spots other classes could be used because they can stand wherever. If it was designed SPECIFICALLY so that two melee could be brought then it was literally designed FOR TWO MELEE, regardless of whether you think the Dev's wanted 2 melee as the standard comp. In titan the boss attack zone and area are specifically built so that even if half the stage is gone melee can still fight. That is melee design in mind during the party splits N/S. During Leviathan the party is split in two, and each side accommodates one melee and needs one ranged for black smokers. But using your logic since 4 melee can technically do black smokers I guess that part of the fight wasn't designed with two ranged specifically in mind? I would argue that it was designed ABSOLUTELY for 2 ranged and two melee. And on your puddles from E2 again using your logic I guess the fights design is such that no melee are needed at all? cause your right. Technically every single mechanic can be done even with 4 melee, and even easier with 4 ranged, but the fights are absolutely made with 2 melee slots in mind. This is very true of old raid tiers as well.
It's not "INCASE" you brought 2 melee. its designed that way FOR 2 melee. See how thats a perspective? I very seldom argue with objective fact, because very few things outside of rough quantitative analysis are fact. I NEVER declared my arguments as fact, and the only things that you should read that way are the numbers moments such as the ratios. Historical analysis is ALWAYS a perspective. ALWAYS.
I literally did not do what you say i did above.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
SIGH I literally said, and i'll quote the exact same moment againQuote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
THESE. I SAID THESE. I MEANT MINE TOO. you are the one trying to spit out things as "fact" and shut down other opinions. this bigheaded close minded belligerence prevents growth and any chance of compromise being met. If you can't relax and compromise there is no point in even discussing things with you. The general pattern of forum arguing where people ignore opponents true points and ONLY attack small discrepancies or weakness is unhealthy discourse. Instead people like to continue to bring up piles of information and just ignore the othersides information. Its bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vendalwind
You had good points. I SAID that, but your points are not the only conclusions that can be reached from the evidence you provided. I didn't combat them at the time, because to me it didn't matter, I was sufficiently satisfied with my understanding that your perspective is backed up too. But since you continue to try to falsely trash my arguments I now continue with yours:
Or my original interpretation is right? HMMM? Because mine most certainly was logical reasoning too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
Logic as used in english is not so clean as it is in computer science, because the logic often tries to force connectives of contextuals.
This is nto a black and white issue, but you are trying to assign it binary conclusive results.
It's also possible both of our interpretations are right at different moments and some designers leaned one way, and other leaned the other.
Again.... I didn't claim it as fact.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
Also everything you have said has been BASED PRIMARILY ON YOUR PERSONAL FEELINGS. for moments when we didn't base arguments on feelings please refer to the ratios i provided and the link to logs you provided. the rest was anecdotal events or moments analyzed with feelings on the subject and event in question. -
09-25-2019, 09:56 AMVendalwind
Since you've persisted Here is my ripping as promised, The pointless forum keyboard warrior has arrived. (Don't kink shame me!)
*Edit (WOOF this post was long. Moments like these let me know I need to re-evaluate my priorities. Thus I'm banning myself from the forums for 3 days. feel free to rip me up too. I find it fun, which is probably a bad thing...anyways just don't expect me to keep up till say friday at least)
False. your statement is based on cherry picked moments where casters dealt the highest damage. the true statement would be: Frequently the balance of the game has actually given the highest damage spots to casters, but this is nto always the caseQuote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
Potentially false. Objectively based on a time when rDPS was harder to calculate, and DMG utility is still effectively DMG IE you don't actually know with 100% certainty that DRG was contributing less damage than BLM MNK or SMN. You don't actually know. Maybe someone at SE knows but no players actually know for sure. How interesting tho that you note MCH being higher tho which dismantles your first statement " casters historically etc."Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
Oh so you admit that melee needed incentive to be brought along? Such as utility? Hmmm so since that utility is gone dont we need incentive? interesting perhaps that incentive is currently damage? Everything i said btw was PERSPECTIVE in case you want to try to tell people falsely those statements were somehow facts. And again you persist with Cherry picking. It is true that BLM generally has held the top spot. I personally don't agree with that being the case for the future, but thats an irrelevant feeling i have on the matter. But again you can't make a conclusive statement about intent with that only in mind. Where I can make a fairly conclusive statement when I say all raid fights have been designed with two melee in mind. Whether or not that was the intended party comp the fights absolutely were designed FOR 2 melee.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
Wrong and wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
It is not the only reason. I thought i made it pretty clear that i think melee are assured two spots because of relevant raid design and class distribution.
Lets look over the count historically for each role by the end of ARR which was the first fully planned cycle of the game.
Healer had 2
Tank had 2
Melee had 3
Ranged had 3
Today
Tank +2
Healer +1
Melee +1
RANGED +3
you tell me which role deserves new classes the most? Cause to me its pretty plain its melee and healer. And jsut because SE decided later to differentiate between cast bars and physical mobile ranged that for some reason they deserve the next new class. Because even within their roles their ratio to slot in raids is the most overcrowded currently. (yes when i say currently i am referring to this current patch set where MNK, DRG, BLM is favored that may change shortly)
Objectively false. You present that as the sole reason. That is so incorrect its ridiculous. of course there are other reasons whether they are accurate or not.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
I presented many
Developers original design
Balance of Roles
Satisfying the most varied amount of players fantasy (IE gameplay fantasy)
Accommodating for more battle styles
Creating rigid guidelines by which content can be created and to help players know what to expect.
Or how bout: what you literally just said above? because melee bring good damage its designed that way? honestly for all we know they could have made the choice to give melee high damage AND THEN decided that groups should be limited to no more than 2 melee.
Again objectively false. Correlation does not imply causation. Thus for all you know that change to the party finder may have been for entirely different reasons that you are incapable of seeing. I can personally think of at least 3.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
Again. accommodating for wait times and more fun anyone? there is a reason party finder is separated from duty finder so where content actually matter people can pick and choose.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
*late edit in brackets {additionally you are wrong here cause at any given point in the games history there was more or equal Ranged than melee. at release 2 melee 3 ranged. Later 3 ranged 3 melee. Later 3 melee 4 ranged. Later 4 melee 5 ranged Ranged distinction created 2 roles. Later 4 melee 6 Ranged the disparity is now at its worst. So your staement about ARR is literally false. during a realm reborn there was less or equal melee to the ranged role. and ONLY in 4.0 when the roles split could you even then say there was more melee than ranged, but still from the perspective of the ORIGINAL game casters and ranged are all RANGED and there are more RANGED than there are melee.}Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
But you don't actually know that. Neither do I which is why i tried to compromise. You provided a few good reasonings, even if some of them had some statements that were too strong to be completely true. YOU do NOT know that melee wasn't designed to have two slots.
Incorrect 3.0 had MCH upsetting what you just said. and since then ranged have always stayed a step ahead (in terms of class selection), and took an extra step over melee when dancer was released.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
ALSO TLDR you're incorrect frequently. (TL;DR's kinda belong at the end of the post or they don't really sum up or do a good job. additionally in the context of a debate they don't actually help anyone, they just sound snarky)
The above segment is probably the most accurate thing you've said thus far. But we still don't know it as the only reason for sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
I understand NIN in this, but DRG utility was effectively just DMG so uh..... didnt DRG during that whole time bring really good dmg? thus is an anecdotal example of melee slots being guaranteed by the......... damage?Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
Who is to say they may not one day divide melee into two types? semi ranged/hybrid and full melee? SAM MNK and DRG could be true melee. NIN, this new Mage Knight, and even my proposed Beastmaster Could all be considered Hybrid melee with just a little bit of tweaking. TCJ is effectively a 5-7 second cast time move. All of our ninjutsu are ranged and have an element of complexity similar to cast time. Perhaps in the future this hybrid melee role will lose positionals entirely but gain some other feature of complexity. NIN could have its throwing knives enhanced and altered. Shadowfang as a dot could be placed on a ranged combo instead of melee combo. The fact that it's been done once before actually only validates my points. It could be done again in the future as more melee is added. And then we WOULD have a set squad. 1 Melee, 1 Hybrid, 1 Ranged, 1 Caster.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
Also since you said historically again.
Historically in 2.0 2 melee 2 ranged was the way to go for sure.
In 3.0 that was still true even tho the balance shifted slightly cause of the MCH add
In 4.0 that was STILL GENERALLY TRUE but different reasons and incentives were provided to make it occur. So.... maybe do you think the devs put those incentives in there to keep things stable.... like they designed? Oh look that's a different PERSPECTIVE on the events of 4.0 and the reasoning behind them.
In 5.0 were now at a full dis balance with 2 more class options available to the ranged group that has now been broken into two categories (became 2 catergories in 4.0.) Can you not see how how melee feel like they deserve the next class option? AND in point of fact (uh oh numbers coming) DRG at a whopping 58000+ parses and MNK at 39000+ are the most played classes. Thus melee need to be subdivided more than any other group of players right now. (both population and parse logs suggest this) I as a NINJA a HYBRID MAGIC MELEE that DUAL WIELDS should be the most worried about having aspects of my class eclipsed by a new DUAL WIELDING MAGE knight MELEE. I as NINJA the current LEAST played class coming in at only 16000 parses, and even less before 5.08. But I'm happy about this new idea. Why??? because it's creative and would only make the game more fulfilling and customizable.
I mean sure? except you.... didn't actually really use these metrics in your discussion much. you just kinda toss it in here as if validating your argument via appeal to reputable source.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
My final point. If melee had grown at the same rate as ranged it would be clear that 2 spots belonged to melee. Currently that isn't the case. But why shouldn't it become the case? Why are some people here, you and katie included, So butthurt about the idea of a new melee class releasing? What exactly makes you guys so frustrated that you feel like attacking the work the OP did and his creativity? Cause the way you all are justifying cutting into his content is disgusting to me. Let the man, or woman, discuss the class and how he wants it to operate. and let other people express opinions about what they think could be done with it. WHO REALLY CARES if some of its style clips into another already existing job. People will still play that job.
Right now the game enables 1 of each with a free 4th spot. And Im happy with that for the moment given the current spread of classes. But I honestly believe 2 melee is the optimal design and I also believe that devs also have that in mind both because and despite the perspectives we both shared. I Do see the merits of having a continual free 4th slot. But melee as a role has seen the least growth of any role now. Thus I think the future of the game should move towards 4 roles, or just 2 melee and 2 ranged within the dps. -
09-25-2019, 10:26 AMRai_TakaraHave you accounted for raid DPS via buffs? AST, for example, has at least 1000 DPS added to the party via buffs not shown on the metrics because it was not tracked back then. On top of that, utility like you mentioned with shadewalker on NIN for example doesn't show on metrics, but it was too good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Wayfinder3
Aside from that, there are only 2 fights that taking 1 melee over two was beneficial. O9S and to a lesser extent Ultima Weapon Ultimate (though none of the top 10 kills by time in SB had 1 melee). The rest have run double melee and sometimes even triple melee for the most optimal damage composition. I think that's the right direction. Make ranged player mechanics to justify their lower damage input but always put melees ahead because uptime is hardest for them, especially with positionals. Black mage shouldn't be as high as it is anyway. It's pretty mobile now compared to before.