Say's who? The imaginary Reddit Fairy? lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by SargentToughie
Your talking like Direct hit is mandatory like we have to meet DPS checks on "The Twinning".
Tank Mitigation vs Tank DPS.
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08-02-2019, 08:16 AMRareItems
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08-02-2019, 08:17 AMReiMakotoDungeons hit like wet noodles if you're using your cooldowns correctly, also the healing thing is as you said uncomfired so you don't count that. EX roulletes are already possible to mass pull with minimal gcd healing, the 4% extra is frankly unecessary and a drop in the pond.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
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08-02-2019, 08:19 AMSargentToughieFirst off your math is inherently flawed because all percentage mitigation is already INHERENTLY getting diminishing returns because of the fact that tanks are already getting 20% mitigation for free. I'll explain it real quick:Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
Suppose a tank buster is coming in for 1000 damage. Tank Mastery brings that down to 800, right? Now we pop Rampart, but because Rampart is only mitigating 20% of the remaining 800 damage, you're not getting the full value out of it. This is the reason why TBN is the single strongest button any tank has. Effective HP is a massive value since it doesn't hit diminishing returns ever.
Second, it's pretty hard confirmed that it doesn't increase healing from other sources, just your own. So in reality, to hit 4% bonus tankiness, you'd need to meld near... yipes... like 900 Tenacity or something crazy like that. -
08-02-2019, 08:19 AMReiMakotoSays these guys : http://theoryjerks.akhmorning.com/stats/ten/Quote:
Originally Posted by RareItems
These guys have all the maths for the stats on the site you can view, also what makes your 2 year old source more valid than them lol. -
08-02-2019, 08:21 AMSargentToughieSays literally the people doing the math, check the thread. Besides, like Rei said, how is your 2 year old youtube video with 41k views using last expansion's substat values a more valid source than an entire community of theorycrafters and number crunchers?Quote:
Originally Posted by RareItems
I'm really, really not. Meld whatever you want, I won't care because you're never going to tank for me. But stop spreading this absurd false narrative that Tenacity is somehow more valuable for EXR and that Dhit/Crit is only good for Savage.Quote:
Your talking like Direct hit is mandatory like we have to meet DPS checks on "The Twinning".
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08-02-2019, 08:23 AMRareItemsSounds like a bunch of Direct Hit Fanboys made lol. Can't believe so many ppl believe that. No wonder Direct Hit Materia prices are off the roof xD. Too many suckers buying it because of theorycrafts like that.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
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08-02-2019, 08:26 AMSargentToughieThey. Are. Doing. The. Math.Quote:
Originally Posted by RareItems
They're not bought out by "big Dhit" to try and decieve the masses. If Tenacity were the most valuable substat, that's what would be published. -
08-02-2019, 08:27 AMReiMakotoAight, I'm ducking out of this thread now because I'm assuming you're a troll, the maths is all there and has been checked by many people, hell you can check it yourself. This thread contains enough information now to inform people.Quote:
Originally Posted by RareItems
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08-02-2019, 08:30 AMTaika
If you're not planning to run Savage, you really don't need to even meld anything, especially if your playstyle is focused on doing single pulls in four person dungeons. :P if you're doing extremes and can beat the SSS dummy without melds, imo that's good enough. But if you really want to, the Theoryjerks site already linked here has the scaling info for all the starts.
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08-02-2019, 08:31 AMRareItemsAgain in Plain English:Quote:
Originally Posted by SargentToughie
If you don't raid: Tenacity + Skillspeed/Crit/Det
If you raid: Direct Hit + Crit/Det/Skillspeed
Tenacity is great since it offers 1% dmg increase and 1% dmg mitigation every 200 Tenacity so its perfect for casual stuff or normal raids.
Direct Hit is great since it offers a 25% dmg increase if it procs which the proc rate goes higher if your Direct Hit rate is high, really useful for "Endgame Content where DPS checks needs to be met".
Will Tenacity work for Endgame raiding? Probably not unless your team can reach the dps checks with you wearing Tenacity melds.
Will Direct hit work on Casual content? Yes, but it going to be harder to stay alive especially when you don't know what kind of healer your going to get. This mostly applies to Expert Roullete and Normal Raids/Alliance raids since materia effects don't matter below lvl 80.
Tenacity Grade 8 Materia sells for 19-25k each.
Direct hit Grade 8 Materia sells for 60-100k each.
Direct Hit and Tenacity are equal stats. It's worthless to a tank who doesn't raid and a waste of gil. Yes i'm not going to tank for you since you only do Expert Roulletes with your FC/Static who doesn't mind healing you while you fill your Parser ego.
That's how you can tell someone is parsing, when they're a tank and is loaded with Direct Hit lol. -
08-02-2019, 08:34 AMSargentToughieAnd we're right back to square one.Quote:
Originally Posted by RareItems
Rei's got the right idea, I'm bailing out of this thread since it's clear you don't care what anybody has to say. The information is there for anybody who cares to be informed. Your numbers are mathematically false, have a nice day. -
08-02-2019, 08:40 AMTaika
Please don't try to make anyone think that 1. you will need melds, especially Tenacity melds, to do standard (wall to wall) pulls in entry level content at level 80, 2. healers would have any easier time healing you in any content if you melded Tenacity, or that 3. anyone is melding anything for dungeon parses.
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08-02-2019, 08:40 AMRareItemsNope, you just have that Endgame Mindset with "Direct Hit is the best number one Meld for Tanks" even thou SE Designed tanks to have the same Direct Hit compared to a Botanist. Why should ppl believe that "Theorycraft" and dismiss a 2017 video explaining how Tenacity works.Quote:
Originally Posted by SargentToughie
This is why Endgame in FFXIV is so toxic lol. It's because of ppl using 3rd Party Apps like you.
Again this is how Tenacity works and Direct Hit Works according to this video:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pMOVb-x6xr4
200 Tenacity = 1% Dmg increase/1% Dmg Mitigation
Direct Hit = 25% dmg increase if it procs with the Proc rate rising the more Direct Hit you have.
If you don't raid, you do not need Direct Hit. People only use Direct Hit for melds on their tanks to meet DPS Checks on Freshly released endgame content. -
08-02-2019, 08:41 AMArthrun
After doing a bunch of reading from all over. Here is how I personally see things.
Item level trumps all. Melding, food and other buffs, while can be optimized in very efficient ways. It is relatively minor in comparison. I am not saying 60-180 of a stat on a piece of gear is not insignificant at all towards gearing and fights but the gain in ilvl is more significant than individual stats. ESP for tanks.
I am going to use wow stats as currently that is the only thing I can think of currently to explain my thought process.
I am using fake numbers here.
Wow stats differ completely as there is a clear ratio gain that is far more noticeable per spec and class. in weights like 2.09 for int 1.6 for crit, 1.85 for haste. ect ect. The difference in how you build your stats can mean the difference between 4% haste and 15% haste. which in fact mean the difference between 5% and 20% dps increase. (This happened to my monk in Legion when I was pulling on average 1.6million dps then I changed my stats and ended up with 2.2million dps. since I had to make a class stat adjustments.)
Now what I have recently learned. The difference on how FFXIV does its stats is a smaller percentage over all. Not insignificant, but nothing that would break your job. From what I have read is that if you want to be the most efficient in what you do -
08-02-2019, 08:48 AMRareItemsIf your planning on doing Endgame content, you have to use Direct Hit unless your doing it with a bunch of casual friends/static. Especially if you try to PUG Endgame content, they see you wearing Tenacity, expect to get mocked for having it in the first 5 minutes lol. Heck someone might leave instantly saying "Guys I'm out, we got a Tenacity tank here."Quote:
Originally Posted by Arthrun
Kinda like Overwatch competitive, you pick a off meta hero and suddenly everyone complains xD. -
08-02-2019, 09:02 AMWaterShieldYou have an agenda that is clear as day.Quote:
Originally Posted by RareItems
TLDR: You don't have to meld at all, if you are good at your job. If you care about min-maxing at all, avoid Tenacity like the plague.
That is all. -
08-02-2019, 09:06 AMHawklaser
On the individual stats, I'd trust the number crunchers unless you can crunch the numbers yourself. As odds are there are points where diminishing returns kick into play as well as synergistic relations.
The problem is unless you can offhandedly math out the difference from your damage done from having more of Det/DH compared to the damage you let the healer do by preventing some amount of damage while also doing less damage yourself, it gets really hard to say. Even more so when you further start trying to account for the multiplicative nature of Crit and Skill/Spellspeed as well.
This link might help out, I hope its fairly accurate, as it is still pretty recent.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...tat_intervals/ -
08-02-2019, 09:07 AMArthrunKind of how I see things after going to the research that was provided here.Quote:
Originally Posted by WaterShield
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08-02-2019, 09:10 AMIlenyaMay I ask why a two year old video is taken as Gospel on this? Stat weights have changed for every expansion. Are you implying they didn't for Shadowbringers all of the sudden?Quote:
Originally Posted by RareItems
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08-02-2019, 09:26 AMRareItemsEven if they changed the stat weights to adjust for 5.0, the message is still the same.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ilenya
Direct Hit is for tanks who like to participate on Endgame content, while Tenacity is for tanks who like to do casual content.
If you don't plan on doing any EX trial or savage content, You don't need to waste that extra 40k on Direct Hit Materia.
You don't have to read "Theorycrafts" and actually do Savage / EX content to figure that out. The Raiders are just stuck with the Mindset that Direct Hit rate is the best stat for tanks even thou it's not most of the time.
Direct Hit on Tanks is only needed to push the DPS to meet the DPS checks which usually involves 3rd party Apps.
Direct Hit is also most likely the biggest reason why so many ppl are clearing the Savage/Ex Trials easily, because SquareEnix tests this fights with Tanks not stacking Direct Hit for Melds.
If a tank melded only Direct Hit on the ilvl450 Crafted gear, he could reach 2780 Direct Hit meaning he would gain 11.5% Damage increase ON PHYSICAL ATTACKS but would cost you millions to do.
if a tank melded Tenacity as his primary stats on a ilvl450 Crafted gear, he could reach 3214 Tenacity meaning he would gain 9.7% Damage increase, 9.7% Damage Mitigation + 9.7% more self healing, its the cheapest materia out there next to Piety. Plus you have space for other stats to meld into.
This is based after calculating using the 5.0 "Theorycrafted" job stat weights on this link.
https://www.reddit.com/r/ffxiv/comme...tat_intervals/ -
08-02-2019, 10:13 AMKaedanCalling BS on this. There are plenty of people that clear Savage without any melds at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by RareItems
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08-02-2019, 10:17 AMRareItemsYou can win a Team match in Overwatch with someone AFK too lol.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaedan
All those Potions, ilvl450 HQ foods and Tinctures, the gatherers are buying them all to help them gather aethersand better. -
08-02-2019, 10:20 AMKaedanIt directly refutes your false claim that you'll be kicked or ridiculed or people leave for Tenacity melds, seeing as hundreds of people are clearing without any melds at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by RareItems
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08-02-2019, 10:28 AMSturmChurroYou definitely don't need any melds to do wall to wall. I just did Mt. Gulg from second boss all the way to third, and I barely have any melds besides damage melds. Not even hard if your healer is competent and adequately geared. Experts are also easy.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
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08-02-2019, 10:28 AMRareItemsSomeone skipped reading the last pages of this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kaedan
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08-02-2019, 10:39 AMKaedanSoo... you don't have a valid argument, so instead you just reply with KBW nonsense?Quote:
Originally Posted by RareItems
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08-02-2019, 02:06 PMBarraindThis is incorrect.Quote:
Sorry to break it to you, but Direct Hit is only good if your raiding
Hit gives you a % chance to deal 25% extra damage and can work in conjunction with a critical hit (a direct Crit). It is the best stat for non-warrior tanks in the .0 patches, is generally on par with crit in .2, and will likely be overttaken by crit in the .4 patch.
Warriors just always want crit.
This is incorrect.Quote:
200 Tenacity = 1% damage increase, 1% damage mitigation
Stat value intervals are re-figured every expansion, because exponential stat increases per ilvl will horrifically break things eventually. (WoW recently faced this because back in beta they went with 'More stats per ilvl is better, over the strong objection of the playtesters).
The current number is 33 per .1%
This is incorrect.Quote:
If you don't raid: Tenacity + Skillspeed/Crit/Det
Your priority is skillspeed to the right GCD (can you get a 2nd goring blade every fight or flight window? Can you get a 5th Fell cleave inside your IR? Thats where you stop).
Then its hit or crit depending on class or era. Then det.
Note, it CAN be in your interest to MELD for Tenacity, IF (and only if) you're overmelding. If 20 tenacity takes you to or just past a breakpoint, it will be a better investment than 20 of a non-crit-in-its-sweet-spot stat.
This is incorrect.Quote:
4% of defence mitigation bonus will have more impact on the team
4% mitigation from tenacity is worth, currently, in 450/460 gear... 4.8k eHP.
Tenacity is a really bad stat :|
Self and outgoing healing. Not incoming healing.Quote:
4% on mitigation alone, and another 4% on healing bonus
Quote:
Back to Direct Hit VS Tenacity:
If a tank melded blablabla
https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/19Y02 <- Here's your tenacity best in slot.
https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/19Y0K <- Heres your non tenacity best using the same ilvl.
The tenacity build gains: 5.6% mitigation.
The avoid tenacity build gains: 3.6% damage, .8% crit and crit damage.
If you think getting less than 6% eHP is worth ~4.5% damage, I dunno what to tell you, but its not. -
08-02-2019, 03:03 PMKaethra
This discussion went on another few pages because of a video from 2017?
I think some of you bit the bait hard. Don't swallow the hook, don't do it! -
08-02-2019, 06:31 PMKleeya
What wee see in this kind of topic is why i think SE will end up removing the materia system in the future. Or at best keeping only one materia to use after merging them all into the "bigdpsmateria". Also i can see them getting rid of the "different pieces of the same ilvl can have different stats" system, and giving them all the same ones. Like we do not have role actions and main stat materias choices anymore.
Because in the end "choices" is just an illusion if we have to all choose the same most efficient thing dictated by some theorycrafter. Why waste developpment time on something like that ? Also why taking the risk of players becoming toxic with those daring to pick something else ?
It is also why we will never get nice things like skills trees with tons of different choices like in Grim Dawn or Path of Exile.
And people will complain of the game being more and more dumbed down, not even understanding that they are the cause of what they complain for. Like they did go straight from point A to point B in multiples paths instances, to have now dungeons only in straight lines. Or how they did go ham on damages only with their tanks, to have now the actual trivial aggro system. -
08-02-2019, 07:06 PMNedkelHow is it inherently flawed even with 20% mitigation given all the time?Quote:
Originally Posted by SargentToughie
How are you going to know how tenacity will affect you without these 20% if you dont know how much damage you would take?
Sorry but 4% is still 4%.
Even if you take for example 10k damage, that being reduced to 8k, tenacity will decrease it to 7680, thats still making you 4% more tanky relatively to other tank with only 20% mitigation bonus and without this extra tenacity.
Even if you apply another 20% into the caluclation, making it 6400, if you give one tank tenacity 4% bonus he will still be 4% more tankier and will stand 4% longer relatively to tank without it.
About this healing bonus, its "proven" (no pic, no video, nothing) but the prove is really old, and in game description doesnt detail what kind of HP restored it really affects. -
08-02-2019, 07:13 PMReiMakotoSo just dropping into explain, mitigation is multiplicative not additive, so for example in the old system if you had tank stance on as well as using rampart you wouldnt mitigate 40%, youd mitigate 36% (damage ×0.8x0.8) because of how buffs stack. So if in this case tenacity stacks like every other defensive buff, a 4% tenacity would actually equal 3% when taking into account the passive 20% (1x0.8x0.96=0.768) IE youve not been made 4% tankierQuote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
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08-02-2019, 07:46 PMNedkelPut tenacity melds with direct hit mix into the exact same gearQuote:
Originally Posted by Barraind
https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/19YCC - tenacity
1260dh, 1948 crit, 2200 det, 2648 ten
Here are the multipliers 3.65% x 7.1% x 7.3% x 6.8% = 1.272
Yours
https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/19Y0K
https://ffxiv.ariyala.com/19YC7 (you choosed wrong earrings)
2380 direct hit, 1948 crit, 2200 det, 1558 ten
8.3% x 7.1% x 7.3% x 3.5% = 1.288
Literally 1.6% damage difference, and 3.3% mitigation for tenacity one which would be more if we used ilvl 460 and higher with 2 melds slot in accessories.
Yes, but if you compare a tank with and without this 4% bonus mitigation from tenacity, a tank with tenacity is 4% more tanky than a tank without it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ReiMakoto
You will stand there for 4% longer and you will be easier to heal by 4%.
With double 20% mitigation, you will mitigate 1000 dps to 640, reduce it by 4% its 614.4 dps you will receive, which is exact 96% of 640 value.
Now if your tank has 10k hp, and you divide this by dps from above, tank without tenacity will die in 15.625 seconds, where tank with tenacity will stand there for 16.276 seconds, which is 4.16% longer.
A 4% is 4%. -
08-02-2019, 08:43 PMTaika
I posted this in a similar thread on the tank forums, but in case someone is interested in the difference and didn't catch it there:
I played with the tank DPS calculator (http://bit.ly/XIV50TANKDPS) a bit, comparing level 450 Paladin (Midlander Hyur) sets (Titania weapon, full Eden left side, Innocence accessories + one Eden ring on right side) with full Tenacity (or Direct Hit when Tenacity was capped) melds or full Direct Hit melds.
This is with Tenacity melds:
https://i.imgur.com/f1h9tzv.png
And this is with Direct Hit melds:
https://i.imgur.com/jyxKuEs.png
Full Direct Hit melds resulted in around 0.99% higher DPS and 2.5% less mitigation in i450 gear. The differences are small enough not to matter for casual content, but for Savage, I'd take that ~1% DPS increase any time. -
08-02-2019, 08:49 PMNedkel
I will take these 2.5% because it will make me a better MT and i like to MT, and i think tenacity is really good for dungeons and MT tanks in raids.
Less burden on healers, could translate into better group performance. -
08-02-2019, 08:58 PMTaikaIt won't change anything about how the healers are healing in any content.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
These are different cases because the DPS increase is an average and % based, while healing is based on the abilities your healers use and the amount of GCDs/OCDs they are using on healing. You melding tenacity will not change your healer's ability use in any way, so it doesn't affect the group performance. Because of how the content is designed (scripted damage, rare tank buster bursts, minor auto-attack damage, extremely strong damage mitigation and healing abilities and a lot of passive healing, and of course all the significant encounters being designed around an enrage timer), your higher DPS, no matter how small, will always be more significant to the group performance than a tiny bit of extra mitigation.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel
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08-02-2019, 09:01 PMNedkelYou could make the same excuse on D hit, since it is just a chance to get bonus damage, it could proc less often than usually and that 1% difference could be gone.Quote:
Originally Posted by Taika
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08-02-2019, 09:19 PMTyphoria
Bringing up the cost of materia seems like a joke. It is so easy to get clusters to buy them. Joining a hunt train or being a "Role in Need" for roulettes make it so simple.
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08-02-2019, 09:26 PMAxlStream
Tenacity is a dead stat. Never meld tenacity.
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08-02-2019, 09:37 PMLersayilTo be fair if you buy the cheap TEN materia, then convert your clusters to DH / Crit and sell those, its still some profit.Quote:
Originally Posted by Typhoria
Anyways, I see this argument as largely pointless and redundant. If the difference between a DH and TEN meld is indeed like 1-3% dps... it's not a difference margin for people to argue over.
Sure in mathematical terms its clearly superior in pretty much any situation, but the number of times either will make a difference between a wipe and a clear is (in all likelihood) even more insignificant in percentage.
Likewise, 5% mitigation difference looks pretty nice on paper, but makes almost no practical difference due to how healers operate. -
08-02-2019, 10:41 PMForteNightshadeExcept if it doesn't save the healers any GCDs or resources, who even cares? You may as well have melded nothing at all and saved yourself the gil.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nedkel