Square Enix Team Hates NIN Players.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

Your explanation tells me that you really havent even tried to learn your own class goad was next to useless 90% of the time before stormblood was even in its quarterway patch dripping blades was baked into the kit ages ago, you lost the slashing debuff yeah I'll agree that is a hit. but you still kept trick attack which in 8 man is probably one of the best abilities. Now if you had said Ninja sucks in 4 man I would have agreed with that 100% but in the content where it counts 8 man and upcoming 24 Man ninja is absolutely a job that anyone would be glad to have with them.
The fact that you expected they would raise the damage output to much higher levels is your own wishful thinking and not very good wishful thinking because they absolutely wont do that unless until they plan on removing trick attack, because then ninja will have nothing to bring to the table and will become a selfish DPS. I should fair hope that rather than major buffs that you guys ask for a trick attack cool down reduction and time up increase to 20 seconds. Maybe a slow baked into on of your damage options yeah it might seem like forever but for the love of the twelve ninja has one of the most fun series of rotations in the game.

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I must wonder how it feels to actually be this ignorant. First of all, while Trick Attack is indeed the best solo buff in the game, it varies wildly depending on your group skill levels and composition. In other words, in most groups, Trick Attack is but a mediocre buff when you combine it with most statics. But this was still okay in Stormblood because Ninjas could bring pretty decent DPS on their own. To demonstrate this with an example.

In almost every pug in Stormblood, it would be better for me to go Monk or Samurai on an equal skill level. This was simply because EVERY party I was in, did not utilize timely trick attacks at all and we were talking about 500 DPS raid contribution here. Samurai and Monk, on the same level of play, bring more overall Raid DPS than Ninja in these scenarios. This is why Ninja is a vastly overrated job, puppeted by silly willy people who have no idea what they are talking about.
Now, we are in Shadowbringers and we still have Trick Attack. The only difference is that our DPS now is so absurdly low, that even in the BEST groups making use of Trick Attack, on an equal skill level, Ninja will fall 500-1k DPS behind Monk and Samurai. That's problematic. Because not only is Ninja the most difficult melee job in the game, and not only is Trick Attack the most difficult thing to optimize properly in the game (other raid buffs synergising with it), it will never be enough.

I wish you would stop making stupid remarks and let the debate be handled by people who actually have an idea what they are talking about. Ninja does need another buff.

Look at the bright side. Nin has been overpowered since it was released. It's only shit now. SMN has been shit every expansion XD.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Look at the bright side. Nin has been overpowered since it was released. It's only shit now. SMN has been shit every expansion XD.

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i dont know if i agree with this but i missed all of Stormblood and can't speak for it. but as for 2.4 to 3.4, It was really strong on release had some bugs got fixed still felt good then in 3.0 it was like "Congrats you are now melee support slave" and became like the the Cinderella of the party. Everyone going GOAD ME GOAD ME NINJA LB NINJA LB NINJA STEP OFF BOSS FOR MECHANIC NINJA SHADEWALKER ME SO I CAN TANK DPS. Came back for Sole for ninja because most of that was gone(story too SHB is dam good) but this ninja is like a neglected child left in a hot car waiting on some by stander to save it. love the class but it needs some help and people need to stop thinking trick attack is some miracle buff cause it for sure aint.

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Originally Posted by Gallus

Look at the bright side. Nin has been overpowered since it was released. It's only shit now. SMN has been shit every expansion XD.

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NIN "overpowered"? FAR from that. I played it now since i started and i was always aware its not THE best DPS of the game but had its uses and was fun to play but it was never overpowered. I RARELY got best dps in a party, only when i played stellar and the Sams and blms did absolutely aweful. Besides that ive ALWAYS been 3-4th place.
It didnt bother me as i could still pull ahead and work around it beeing useful with other buffs ect.

Now in Shadowbringers? Im useless, i do no damage, be it single or multitarget. I really feel like im just beeing brought along to Pad other peoples ego but in the end we take longer as if they just kick me and get another BLM or ANYTHING for that matter.

Trick attack is so highly overrated just because 1-3% of the entire playerbase know how to use it well and the entire rest of Nin players can go die in a trashfire. Thats how i feel ninja is this expansion. No utility besides that goddamn "OP" Trick attack and besides that a MYRIAD of Issues surrounding everything from mechanics to clipping which just dont feel rewarding at all to play.
If it just feels like youre there to get carried it feels like shit playing this class.

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Originally Posted by Starflake

I must wonder how it feels to actually be this ignorant. First of all, while Trick Attack is indeed the best solo buff in the game, it varies wildly depending on your group skill levels and composition. In other words, in most groups, Trick Attack is but a mediocre buff when you combine it with most statics. But this was still okay in Stormblood because Ninjas could bring pretty decent DPS on their own. To demonstrate this with an example.

In almost every pug in Stormblood, it would be better for me to go Monk or Samurai on an equal skill level. This was simply because EVERY party I was in, did not utilize timely trick attacks at all and we were talking about 500 DPS raid contribution here. Samurai and Monk, on the same level of play, bring more overall Raid DPS than Ninja in these scenarios. This is why Ninja is a vastly overrated job, puppeted by silly willy people who have no idea what they are talking about.
Now, we are in Shadowbringers and we still have Trick Attack. The only difference is that our DPS now is so absurdly low, that even in the BEST groups making use of Trick Attack, on an equal skill level, Ninja will fall 500-1k DPS behind Monk and Samurai. That's problematic. Because not only is Ninja the most difficult melee job in the game, and not only is Trick Attack the most difficult thing to optimize properly in the game (other raid buffs synergising with it), it will never be enough.

I wish you would stop making stupid remarks and let the debate be handled by people who actually have an idea what they are talking about. Ninja does need another buff.

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I've leveled EVERY JOB there is Played Ninja Back from HW release off and on till now But nope dont have a clue what I'm talking about. I don't know what your experience is but I'd say it's roughly the exact same as mine.That said I will conceed the point with PuGs I completely forgot to even consider them into the equation.I also wouldn't use monk as your guide point when you make the claim you need a buff Monk is meant to do high yield damage. Ninja will never be allowed to get close to monk Samurai I'll give you that one Sam and NIN should be neck and neck.

I would however make a few more suggestions and actually listen to them because otherwise not one whit of any of the feedbacks going to be looked over. Have OP make a new better titled thread.

1. It makes it seem as if its a bunch of trivial grade school whinging and alot of it is
2. Get rid of the whingy it feels like posts feelings have nothing to do with it.
3. get rid of the snarky posts mine included.
4. Consolidate everything into a data format and explain the proposed Buffs required
5.Explain why Trick Attack should NOT Factor into the battle teams decisions on Ninjas needing Buffed.
6. Put up a question on Ninja into the Q&A (Remember they said Ask job related questions and convey the issues after 5.05 dropped)
7.Stop putting solid feedback into Sensationalist Titled threads they will always be ignored by Devs

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

I've leveled EVERY JOB there is Played Ninja Back from HW release off and on till now But nope dont have a clue what I'm talking about. I don't know what your experience is but I'd say it's roughly the exact same as mine.That said I will conceed the point with PuGs I completely forgot to even consider them into the equation.I also wouldn't use monk as your guide point when you make the claim you need a buff Monk is meant to do high yield damage. Ninja will never be allowed to get close to monk Samurai I'll give you that one Sam and NIN should be neck and neck.

I would however make a few more suggestions and actually listen to them because otherwise not one whit of any of the feedbacks going to be looked over. Have OP make a new better titled thread.

1. It makes it seem as if its a bunch of trivial grade school whinging and alot of it is
2. Get rid of the whingy it feels like posts feelings have nothing to do with it.
3. get rid of the snarky posts mine included.
4. Consolidate everything into a data format and explain the proposed Buffs required
5.Explain why Trick Attack should NOT Factor into the battle teams decisions on Ninjas needing Buffed.
6. Put up a question on Ninja into the Q&A (Remember they said Ask job related questions and convey the issues after 5.05 dropped)
7.Stop putting solid feedback into Sensationalist Titled threads they will always be ignored by Devs

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You indeed do not having a clue what you are talking about, regardless of you leveling all your classes, that does not mean you know the numbers. You also apparently have some trouble reading what I am actually saying. Maybe you do not know the difference between pDPS and rDPS. Nobody is claiming that Ninja's personal DPS should be on par with Monk's DPS. The rDPS should be roughly equal between the two. Meaning the personal damage you bring plus the raid Ulility you bring cominbed should even out in the end. It doesn't.
Ninja shouldn't be close to samurai either, Samurai should be doing more personal DPS than monk as it has no party utility, Monk still has Brotherhood.

Ninja requires a lot more effort than other jobs, has highest APM than other jobs. And gives the lowest pDPS? Not sure what those are saying that ninja is fine because of trick attack.
The average nin player won't be able to fully capitalize the jobs abilities. The opener alone can be scary.

Suiton > spinning > meisui +dream > shadowfang > TCJ > spinning > trick + bunshin > gust >kassatsu + assasinate > aeolian > hyosho + kassatsu > spining >mug + bhavackra > shadowfang. (may have some errors, going off memory and not muscle memory)

During 7 GCDS we have to press a total of 28-32 buttons. Not including all the clipping if you have terrible ping.

This is the current rota if you wanna be good but still the worst of the party =P

https://i.imgur.com/24o5XI5.jpg

God... I leveled all classes, but doesn't make me a master of them. I love Ninja because it was a Dual-Wielding class and that's my preferred fighting style and honestly I noticed how poor NIN's damage output was in ShB. I felt like I was taking so long to deal any damage at all. Even my lv75 DRK at the time had DPS that was close to my i430 lv80 NIN and a Tank should NOT be able to get that close in damage to a DPS like that.

Honestly the Dripping Blades lost hit NIN really hard. Perhaps give it back at 10% instead of 20% if they're worried of it outperforming the other DPS class and see what it goes from there.

At this point I'm OK with of removing Mudra and having the Ninjutsu be their own weaponskill. Maybe tie it to the Ninka so you have to build up the resources to do it and have Kassatsu be a freebie that powers up the moves as it does. To save time because of the oGCD. No more clipping... gods the lag will miss up at times and I have to double back if I hit the right button and now the second button so I don't get bunny.

I love NIN, it's fun, it uses Dual Swords, but it has so many issues with it that don't make it that smooth which is why I don't mind the other classes that much and are instant.

There's just too much to follow. Heck I would say get rid of Trick Attack if it's meant to be focused around NIN. Make the kit work with it instead of an offhand thing. I don't care if NIN isn't the strongest DPS in the game, I want it to be fun and rewarding with decent personal DPS.

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Originally Posted by Starflake

You indeed do not having a clue what you are talking about, regardless of you leveling all your classes, that does not mean you know the numbers. You also apparently have some trouble reading what I am actually saying. Maybe you do not know the difference between pDPS and rDPS. Nobody is claiming that Ninja's personal DPS should be on par with Monk's DPS. The rDPS should be roughly equal between the two. Meaning the personal damage you bring plus the raid Ulility you bring cominbed should even out in the end. It doesn't.
Ninja shouldn't be close to samurai either, Samurai should be doing more personal DPS than monk as it has no party utility, Monk still has Brotherhood.

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English is a third language admittedly. I'm getting what you're saying now.

We've got a Letter from the Producer Live on August 7. I'm seeing lots of posts on the DPS forum, Reddit, and elsewhere, so I imagine they realize that players are upset by the change. My hope is that they will atleast try to address our concerns during the Live Letter. If they do not, that's going to show a serious disconnect that will need to be remedied.

It actually makes me glad to see so many people fighting for Ninja's sake. The longer people continue to do this and the louder they are, the more likely we are to get a response. The playerbase may not have liked their replies to the genderlocking issues or the handling of healers in Shadowbringers, but they have done what they can to atleast alleviate concerns where they saw them. My hope is for them to do the same with Ninja, atleast for some peace of mind.

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Originally Posted by Aiscence

If you look at actual rdps parses, ninja is actually higher than ranged in some fight, and they were taken in a lot of speekdill comp (half of them?) So they arent that weak, despite their pdps looking weak.

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Why are we comparing ninjas to ranged dps they are a melee dps not a ranged compare them to their role

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Originally Posted by Starflake

I must wonder how it feels to actually be this ignorant. First of all, while Trick Attack is indeed the best solo buff in the game, it varies wildly depending on your group skill levels and composition. In other words, in most groups, Trick Attack is but a mediocre buff when you combine it with most statics. But this was still okay in Stormblood because Ninjas could bring pretty decent DPS on their own. To demonstrate this with an example.

In almost every pug in Stormblood, it would be better for me to go Monk or Samurai on an equal skill level. This was simply because EVERY party I was in, did not utilize timely trick attacks at all and we were talking about 500 DPS raid contribution here. Samurai and Monk, on the same level of play, bring more overall Raid DPS than Ninja in these scenarios. This is why Ninja is a vastly overrated job, puppeted by silly willy people who have no idea what they are talking about.
Now, we are in Shadowbringers and we still have Trick Attack. The only difference is that our DPS now is so absurdly low, that even in the BEST groups making use of Trick Attack, on an equal skill level, Ninja will fall 500-1k DPS behind Monk and Samurai. That's problematic. Because not only is Ninja the most difficult melee job in the game, and not only is Trick Attack the most difficult thing to optimize properly in the game (other raid buffs synergising with it), it will never be enough.

I wish you would stop making stupid remarks and let the debate be handled by people who actually have an idea what they are talking about. Ninja does need another buff.

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Best comment I’ve seen here so far thank you I’ve been trying to prove this point to people since stormsblood when drg was literally the only job with the op utility that locked them into every party and nin Sam and monk were interchangeable yet everybody was just on the “trick attack is op” hype train smh. I’m so glad fflogs added rdps into there system now so ignorant people can finally see for themselves this point your just made!

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Originally Posted by TheGrimace

We've got a Letter from the Producer Live on August 7. I'm seeing lots of posts on the DPS forum, Reddit, and elsewhere, so I imagine they realize that players are upset by the change. My hope is that they will atleast try to address our concerns during the Live Letter. If they do not, that's going to show a serious disconnect that will need to be remedied.

It actually makes me glad to see so many people fighting for Ninja's sake. The longer people continue to do this and the louder they are, the more likely we are to get a response. The playerbase may not have liked their replies to the genderlocking issues or the handling of healers in Shadowbringers, but they have done what they can to atleast alleviate concerns where they saw them. My hope is for them to do the same with Ninja, atleast for some peace of mind.

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Not hopeful for the live letter. They are gonna filter through all the questions and choose the easy ones. Or answer ones that they already have an answer for.
If they even choose one of our DPS issues, it will probably be a generic "will look into it"

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

For Innocence EX, BRD's rDPS was only 50~70 behind MCH... And it was actually quite represented in speedkills for both.

FFLogs ranks via rDPS now. Not pDPS.


SAM getting Hagakure back as Sen management (which may or may not directly affect their damage due to it only returning 5 Kenki per Sen versus the 20 it gave in SB) is a little bit different than reincorporating Foe's as a new off-global. They would have to likely have to actively redesign the skill, where as Hagakure is just less Kenki return and on a shorter recast - it functions virtually the same as it did in SB. And while I think they could have addressed the gauge sound change, it's not like BRD is actively hurting right now in terms of what it does and what it can bring.

We'll see how BRD sits when Eden clears and speedkills start happening, but podcasts were already listing it as the better prog choice of the physical ranged. The physical ranged are one of the few roles that are relatively close to one another in rDPS balance, with DNC being only ~300 or so behind MCH, and BRD being basically neck-n-neck with it. So all you're doing is doomsaying and complaining with very little numerical basis right now (and even high-jacking a thread about NIN to do so).

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https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/29#
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/29#dpstype=pdps


uhuh. DNC took our job, all those raid buffs go to DNC from Bard clearly. There is not disputing this. You just change to DNC main so have fun there ofc you are going to suck up to it.


DNC would have no place? Like SE cares when they add it and think homogenization is a good idea in an RPG game. Even Ragnarok didn't need to do that.

All that aDPS, put onto one ability Battle Voice...wow so Bard there. Oh look, rDPS is just the same as BRD.

Wait to see pDPS and will see how much do we really "buff" the party.
Just wow.

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Originally Posted by TcomJ

https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/29#
https://www.fflogs.com/zone/statistics/29#dpstype=pdps


uhuh. DNC took our job, all those raid buffs go to DNC from Bard clearly. There is not disputing this. You just change to DNC main so have fun there ofc you are going to suck up to it.


DNC would have no place? Like SE cares when they add it and think homogenization is a good idea in an RPG game. Even Ragnarok didn't need to do that.

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This topic is about NIN, not about another of your self-pity attempts.

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Originally Posted by RikuGx

NIN "overpowered"? FAR from that. I played it now since i started and i was always aware its not THE best DPS of the game but had its uses and was fun to play but it was never overpowered. I RARELY got best dps in a party, only when i played stellar and the Sams and blms did absolutely aweful. Besides that ive ALWAYS been 3-4th place.
It didnt bother me as i could still pull ahead and work around it beeing useful with other buffs ect.

Now in Shadowbringers? Im useless, i do no damage, be it single or multitarget. I really feel like im just beeing brought along to Pad other peoples ego but in the end we take longer as if they just kick me and get another BLM or ANYTHING for that matter.

Trick attack is so highly overrated just because 1-3% of the entire playerbase know how to use it well and the entire rest of Nin players can go die in a trashfire. Thats how i feel ninja is this expansion. No utility besides that goddamn "OP" Trick attack and besides that a MYRIAD of Issues surrounding everything from mechanics to clipping which just dont feel rewarding at all to play.
If it just feels like youre there to get carried it feels like shit playing this class.

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If anyone takes the time to look at the raid dps each job gives now on fflog they would notice that ninja trick attack gives around 1000 raid dps at its highest end that’s with a full party of 90 percentile players and above lining up cooldowns to take the most advantage out of the buff. In your average party not optimized its use you’ll see around 600-800 rdps from it btw.

Ok now looks at drgs who are bringing around 500 rdps consistently. you mean to tell me that that 500 rdps difference is that op? when dragoon’s are out dpsing ninjas personally by 1000-3000 like be real.

Ok let’s say that is the case and you think 500 raid dps difference equates to 1000-3000 personal dps difference, if that’s the case then tell me why ninja are only ahead of dancers by around 500-800 dps when dancers raid dps is anywhere from 1200 on the low end up to 1700 with an optimized party?

Nothing is adding up with Ninja people are just 2 ignorant to admit it.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

I've leveled EVERY JOB there is Played Ninja Back from HW release off and on till now But nope dont have a clue what I'm talking about. I don't know what your experience is but I'd say it's roughly the exact same as mine.That said I will conceed the point with PuGs I completely forgot to even consider them into the equation.I also wouldn't use monk as your guide point when you make the claim you need a buff Monk is meant to do high yield damage. Ninja will never be allowed to get close to monk Samurai I'll give you that one Sam and NIN should be neck and neck.

I would however make a few more suggestions and actually listen to them because otherwise not one whit of any of the feedbacks going to be looked over. Have OP make a new better titled thread.

1. It makes it seem as if its a bunch of trivial grade school whinging and alot of it is
2. Get rid of the whingy it feels like posts feelings have nothing to do with it.
3. get rid of the snarky posts mine included.
4. Consolidate everything into a data format and explain the proposed Buffs required
5.Explain why Trick Attack should NOT Factor into the battle teams decisions on Ninjas needing Buffed.
6. Put up a question on Ninja into the Q&A (Remember they said Ask job related questions and convey the issues after 5.05 dropped)
7.Stop putting solid feedback into Sensationalist Titled threads they will always be ignored by Devs

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This is the most ignorant post I’ve ever seen lol

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Originally Posted by 24daking

This is the most ignorant post I’ve ever seen lol

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and yet the 7 things listed are nonetheless the only way that your feedback will be paid attention to.

I have a hard time putting my thoughts into words that most people can understand when I'm trying to get what I'm trying to say across.

However the irony that what I said being the most ignorant post you've ever seen when you've singularly wrote the most ignorant response to it is just hilarious to me.

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Originally Posted by kidalutz

and yet the 7 things listed are nonetheless the only way that your feedback will be paid attention to.

I have a hard time putting my thoughts into words that most people can understand when I'm trying to get what I'm trying to say across.

However the irony that what I said being the most ignorant post you've ever seen when you've singularly wrote the most ignorant response to it is just hilarious to me.

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You know what would help our concerns be heard and addressed by the devs? Not having players come into a thread that people that actually investing time into the class in question are passionate for telling them not to put emotion behind a job they put years into caring about and optimizing. So much time it’s to a point that even if their thoughts have emotion behind them they still have way more understanding as to what the class needs then someone who plays the job on and off and says it’s fine as is.

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Originally Posted by Chimiko

Atleast you guys have a spot in the raids. SAM dosen't. There is no point in taking a SAM or a NIN to a raid group at this moment. :)

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Clearly you were not pay attention to recent News Ninja is black listed in prog Kills for Raids. Most regular Party finders Trying to Kill fights Block out ninja and have prefer MNK/SAM/DRG for both melee spots. last expansion ppl didn't like sam but
Atleast you could kill fights back then with sams Now Ninjas are being blamed for enrage wipes. and Reddits Running Rampart with RIP ninjas memes.

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Originally Posted by TheGrimace

We've got a Letter from the Producer Live on August 7. I'm seeing lots of posts on the DPS forum, Reddit, and elsewhere, so I imagine they realize that players are upset by the change. My hope is that they will atleast try to address our concerns during the Live Letter. If they do not, that's going to show a serious disconnect that will need to be remedied.

It actually makes me glad to see so many people fighting for Ninja's sake. The longer people continue to do this and the louder they are, the more likely we are to get a response. The playerbase may not have liked their replies to the genderlocking issues or the handling of healers in Shadowbringers, but they have done what they can to atleast alleviate concerns where they saw them. My hope is for them to do the same with Ninja, atleast for some peace of mind.

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get LOUD!!!
Seriously and the more its said, whether with emotion, or mathematical logic, will have an effect

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Originally Posted by Sigiria

snip

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Can I just say that your signature is amazing.

SAM may not be in a bad spot, but it's not in a good spot either. Both far eastern jobs (and to some extent BRD) need some serious love. The only thing SAM and BRD can say is to their benefit: at least they're not NIN.

Wait... i got it...
Now follow me on this... maybe, all the ninjas died, and we just came back as DRKs shadowclone, and he just summons a second one every so often... he just lets us keep using daggers...

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Originally Posted by TaiyouSeishin

Wait... i got it...
Now follow me on this... maybe, all the ninjas died, and we just came back as DRKs shadowclone, and he just summons a second one every so often... he just lets us keep using daggers...

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thb that wouldnt even suprise me. DRKs shadow more powerful then our shadowclone ability by MILES

just went in and tested out bunshin a few times. Each ability deals around 3800-5000 for around 6-7 abilities. So a total of ROUGHLY 30k damage.
Dark Knights Shadow out of his 24 second existance (summoning, appearing alone takes already 5 seconds of not doing shit and after doing his last skill he just stands around doing nothing for the remaining 2 seconds so out of 24 seconds you can cut already 7 seconds of him doing nothing which is...sad enough) he uses 7 attacks at a fixed order in the interval of his, well, 17 seconds.
The clone of DRK deals constant 7200 damage without a crit (at itemlevel 421 which is lower then my 443 nin) at 7 times this already exceeds what NINs bunshin does easily to 5000k.
By raw damage of both without counting any crit the dark knight clone deals a LOT more then bunshin even if you cound the extra ninki for another bhavaakra which is another 17k.

Bunshin no crit of my 443 NIN > roughly 30k + 1 free Bhavaakra 15k > 45k
Dark Knight no crit 421 > minimum 50k for its duration
at a 22 itemlevel difference, this is sad

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Originally Posted by Rangar

SAM may not be in a bad spot, but it's not in a good spot either. Both far eastern jobs (and to some extent BRD) need some serious love. The only thing SAM and BRD can say is to their benefit: at least they're not NIN.

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*cries in nin

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Originally Posted by RikuGx

thb that wouldnt even suprise me. DRKs shadow more powerful then our shadowclone ability by MILES

just went in and tested out bunshin a few times. Each ability deals around 3800-5000 for around 6-7 abilities. So a total of ROUGHLY 30k damage.
Dark Knights Shadow out of his 24 second existance (summoning, appearing alone takes already 5 seconds of not doing shit and after doing his last skill he just stands around doing nothing for the remaining 2 seconds so out of 24 seconds you can cut already 7 seconds of him doing nothing which is...sad enough) he uses 7 attacks at a fixed order in the interval of his, well, 17 seconds.
The clone of DRK deals constant 7200 damage without a crit (at itemlevel 421 which is lower then my 443 nin) at 7 times this already exceeds what NINs bunshin does easily to 5000k.
By raw damage of both without counting any crit the dark knight clone deals a LOT more then bunshin even if you cound the extra ninki for another bhavaakra which is another 17k.

Bunshin no crit of my 443 NIN > roughly 30k + 1 free Bhavaakra 15k > 45k
Dark Knight no crit 421 > minimum 50k for its duration
at a 22 itemlevel difference, this is sad

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So... what this tells me... is DRK saw how this expansion was gonna turn out, so gave us a portion of their Shadow to use.... i see i see..

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Originally Posted by RikuGx

Snip

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Interesting maths. They really did ruin our ultimate tho. I mean i onow you cant truly compare 1 ability to 1 ability, but our lvl 80 ability is pretty shabby. Especially when compared to something like BLM lvl 80.

Our bunshin is locked behing a guage and a 110 second cooldown. ~7 hits of ~133 potency. Bonus of 931 potency per ~120 seconds then. + we give up a bhava cast to use it so its effectively only a 431 gain.

Xenoglossy is 750 potency but is on tje gcd. So its 450 over the next best standard gcd fire 4. I dont know if its effected by astral fire BUT regardless its a 1800 potency gain over 120 seconds.

SAM shoha is also kinda lame. I dont know how meditation works, but if they can get 1 cast in per 120 seconds its stronger than bunshin.

Mnk six sided is 400 kinda but with added benefits so hard to compare.

DrG 550 way beats out bunshin or sam. Especialy if you assume it can be cast every 30second recast

BrD apex arrow is also a guaranteed bigger increase but is a bit more complex to calculate as well.

Mch Automaton queen is a godly potency gain.

Smn is harder to calculate so i dont know how its capstone compares

Scorch for rdm is a solid gain.

Dnc improv is exceptionally lame, but flourish and sabre dnc kinda make up for it.

Point being i havent mathed it all out but: I would easily argue that nins 70 to 80 journey yield the least potency gains of ajy class, especially since every gain comes at the cost of some other skill or resource that was already being used.

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Originally Posted by Vendalwind

Interesting maths. They really did ruin our ultimate tho. I mean i onow you cant truly compare 1 ability to 1 ability, but our lvl 80 ability is pretty shabby. Especially when compared to something like BLM lvl 80.

Our bunshin is locked behing a guage and a 110 second cooldown. ~7 hits of ~133 potency. Bonus of 931 potency per ~120 seconds then. + we give up a bhava cast to use it so its effectively only a 431 gain.

Xenoglossy is 750 potency but is on tje gcd. So its 450 over the next best standard gcd fire 4. I dont know if its effected by astral fire BUT regardless its a 1800 potency gain over 120 seconds.

SAM shoha is also kinda lame. I dont know how meditation works, but if they can get 1 cast in per 120 seconds its stronger than bunshin.

Mnk six sided is 400 kinda but with added benefits so hard to compare.

DrG 550 way beats out bunshin or sam. Especialy if you assume it can be cast every 30second recast

BrD apex arrow is also a guaranteed bigger increase but is a bit more complex to calculate as well.

Mch Automaton queen is a godly potency gain.

Smn is harder to calculate so i dont know how its capstone compares

Scorch for rdm is a solid gain.

Dnc improv is exceptionally lame, but flourish and sabre dnc kinda make up for it.

Point being i havent mathed it all out but: I would easily argue that nins 70 to 80 journey yield the least potency gains of ajy class, especially since every gain comes at the cost of some other skill or resource that was already being used.

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Just to clarify on SAM's Shoha skill, you can only use it after meditation, which is a channel skill similar to flamethrower and Anatman. it doesn't do much for damage but considering how well designed SAM is in comparison to NIN. its kinda passable they get a mediocre level 80 capstone ability. Six Sided Star has very few applications from what i know. and Star Diver is just free damage in Life window on DRG.

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Originally Posted by Zytoryu

Just to clarify on SAM's Shoha skill, you can only use it after meditation, which is a channel skill similar to flamethrower and Anatman. it doesn't do much for damage but considering how well designed SAM is in comparison to NIN. its kinda passable they get a mediocre level 80 capstone ability. Six Sided Star has very few applications from what i know. and Star Diver is just free damage in Life window on DRG.

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*cries in NIN as my hand hovers over the Dragoon button*

Really wouldn't even take that much to make Ninja a strong job.

-Give us back Dripping Blades
-Nerf Trick Attack from 10% vulnerability to 2,3,4 or 5%
-Remove the Ninki cost from Bunshin.

done, in just a mere 3 lines of text i solved the bulk of Ninja's primary issues,

-Low Base Damage
-Reliance on others to provide even mediocre raid contribution.
-Bunshin's underwhelming presence

The fact these simple changes are so goddamn unlikely is infuriating to me. These are the same people who reworked Warrior in a goddamn patch back in 4.0
This isnt getting into the remaining issues of the Job either. Mudra's being the same shitty system since ARR, its even more of kick in the face now that Dancer is here and has basically the same system just miles better, especially for those with higher ping.
Requiring so much double weaving inside of a 10 second window for optimal damage while also having a faster GCD than all but 1 of the other jobs.

As of writing this there is a Live letter to be expected in no more then 12 hours. I really doubt they'll talk about Ninja at all given the job's track record. but i sure hope they do, because this kind of treatment to any job at all is just pathetic. and Square should be put on the spot for letting something so flawed get past play testing and THEN let it get by again with the balance patch of Savage launch.

- Sincerely, a filthy melee main who wants to use the job in content besides going AFK in towns