2.5s Recast/GCD feels wayyy too long.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daralii

A handful of defensive utility cooldowns are oGCD, but everything else was on a 1.5s GCD. They've been gradually backpeddaling on it after maybe a year and a half of people telling them it was a terrible idea.

---

I personally enjoy the animation canceling it allows, from a purely visual perspective. Like you found an opening and NOW ITS TIME TO GO, BABY!

You thought it was Gekko, but it was me, Shinten!

honestly just looks like you'd rather play WoW tbh

So not sure if someone has already posted this but Bard is a decent APM job. The GCD is 2.5 seconds but you often have Ogcd's (sometimes 2 if your ping is good enough) to weave in between GCD. So with Wanderer's Minuet you have Pitch Perfect (ogcd) that becomes available and usually procs every 8 seconds or so;

Here are some more ogcd abilities: Raging Strikes, Bloodletter, Empereal Arrow, I could go on and on honestly. During Mages Ballad (ogcd) your Bloodletter will reset 80% of the time every 3 seconds. During Army's Peon (ogcd) your gcd will quickly (usually) go down to 2.05s from 2.5, so theres that.

Ninja is also a high APM job so you may want to consider switching from Sam to Ninja.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xyr

As for those of you saying ah there's no such thing as 0 gcd because of physical limitations of how information gets transferred across the internet. 0 GCD is 0 GCD, just because physics won't allow it doesn't mean it's not 0 GCD, no need to argue semantics.

---

No game has a 0 gcd. That's not a thing that exists. There is ALWAYS some sort of delay in when the game allows for the next input to happen - even in the single player, offline, and completely designed for different mechanics so you're comparing apples to oranges games you mentioned.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Samsta

Could OP please address the OGCD argument? Almost all dps jobs have many of those and the ones that don't have cast times where gcd doesn't feel that bad. The combat system is designed around weaving OGCD skills.

---

I didn't want to bother because I didn't want to have to look up all the OGCD skills. Since I've only played SMN and SAM in Shadowbringer, I'll use them as examples.

For SAM, I won't mention every single oGCD skill, the primary ones to weave are Senei, Shinten, and Kaiten. Kaiten takes 20 Kenki, Shinten takes 25, and Senei takes 50 with a CD of 120s. Ikishoten gives 50 Kenki every minute. Hakaze, Shifu, and Jinpu generates 5 Kenki per cast. Kasha and Gekko generates 10, and Yukikaze generates 15.

In one minute, 24 GCD skills can be used, note Midare/Higan/Tsubame all have a 1.5s cast time + 2.5s recast.

Listing the GCD skills:

Hakaze ->Shifu -> Kasha -> Hakaze -> Jinpu -> Higanbana -> Gekko -> Hakaze -> Yukikaze -> Kasha(Meikyo 1) -> Midare -> Tsubame Gaeshi -> Kasha(MeiKyo 2) -> Gekko (Meikyo 3) -> Midare -> Hakaze -> Shifu -> Kasha -> Hakaze -> Jinpu -> Gekko -> Midare -> Hakaze -> Shifu

With 13% haste selfbuff, this takes ~60 seconds.


That's a gain of 140 Kenki from GCD skills in 1 minute + Ikishoten 50 per minute - Senei 25 per minute - 4 Kaiten 80 per minute - 3 Shinten 50 kenki per minute, 10 residual Kenki.

Above is a list of 30 actions, adding in True north x2 + Meikyo, a total of 36 actions per minute. Which brings down the 2.5s to 1.82s.

So, with 13% sks + weaving still leaves it to be a long ass GCD of 1.67s(weaving reductions incluced).

An entire team can be wiped out in League or Dota in a 1.67s stun...

WoW has a base of 1.5s GCD but their gear have extremely high stats compared to XIV. Even without stacking for haste intentionally, most dps will get 30% or so from their equipment, those who stack haste can reach 50-60%, and 30% is enough for them to reduce their GCD to 1s, and their GCD can be reduce to .75s on classes with self-haste buffs.

Not to mention, WoW is the worst case. Tera, Blade and Soul, and Back Desert all have incredibly low GCD, even accounting for animation lock.

The point of this thread is not, "I would do more damage if GCD was lower," or "There's not enough skills to use."

The point is regarding combat, the games listed above(other than WoW), have good combat flow, it's fluid and synchronized, even with animation locks, it's pleasant to play because you don't feel that animation lock, it's like everything is natural.

FFXIV doesn't have that flow and the incredibly long GCDs are a part of the problem.

Ever played a MOBA and get stunned for 1.5s? And in that 1.5s you just watch in slow motion as literally 20+ things happened, your health drop from 100% to 0, but you can't do anything for this 1.5s that feels like a eternity so you just sit back and read a book or something. That's exactly how it feels everytime my GCD comes up and I have nothing to use.

If SAM feels too slow, try playing a job like NIN then. It has far more oGCDs and Huton decreases your GCD naturally. Just don't stack Skill Speed or you'll clip your GCD like a madman. Or you can try playing a job like BRD, where you frequently double weave oGCDs and procs, and have a song that can give you +16% Haste at 4 Repertoire. Or you can try SMN - I hear they even have some triple-weaves going on.

The GCD in this game is fine and doesn't need to be changed because it works with the content this game produces. Especially if you're playing busy jobs. With its current design and issues with server latency, there are certain jobs that avoid skill speed for lower GCDs altogether (e.g., NIN, DNC, MCH, SMN).

If you think combat is slow, why don't you try Savage where you have to learn the mechanical dance while also keeping up your rotation.

If neither of these work for you, then perhaps this isn't a game you will enjoy.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xyr

WoW has a base of 1.5s GCD but their gear have extremely high stats compared to XIV. Even without stacking for haste intentionally, most dps will get 30% or so from their equipment, those who stack haste can reach 50-60%, and 30% is enough for them to reduce their GCD to 1s, and their GCD can be reduce to .75s on classes with self-haste buffs.

Not to mention, WoW is the worst case. Tera, Blade and Soul, and Back Desert all have incredibly low GCD, even accounting for animation lock.

The point of this thread is not, "I would do more damage if GCD was lower," or "There's not enough skills to use."

The point is regarding combat, the games listed above(other than WoW), have good combat flow, it's fluid and synchronized, even with animation locks, it's pleasant to play because you don't feel that animation lock, it's like everything is natural.

FFXIV doesn't have that flow and the incredibly long GCDs are a part of the problem.

Ever played a MOBA and get stunned for 1.5s? And in that 1.5s you just watch in slow motion as literally 20+ things happened, your health drop from 100% to 0, but you can't do anything for this 1.5s that feels like a eternity so you just sit back and read a book or something. That's exactly how it feels everytime my GCD comes up and I have nothing to use.

---

I disagree. I think barring a few latency issues the combat has good flow, is fluid and synchronized (well maybe not Ninja, mostly due to latency issues admittedly) minimal animation locks, etc.

You keep comparing FFXIV to other games. This is not those games, and in fact its kind of nice to have something different for a change and not the spam-fest you get with alot of other games.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Powercow

No, we're not counting moving for mechanics. Yes, we are counting moving to his positionals. This is because moving to hit positionals is literally pressing a button to increase DPS against a stationary target, and therefore counts as an action to any reasonable person.

If you mean more in general, APM means means "Actions Per Minute," or how often you need to hit buttons every minute. The reason this is relevant is because the claim that FFXIV's GCD is so slow hinges upon the belief that combat in general is too slow. Anyone can easily go look up some of the faster jobs in this game and find out that, no, it's really not much slower than a game like WoW. It is slower in general, and some jobs are much slower than WoW equivalents, some of them can keep up with the faster WoW jobs.

---

you can define actions per minute as any button press from the player, but thats nor really relevant when talking about gcds in games. or how much the player has to do.

by your definition, a fighting game where you press two buttons at the same time to throw is two actions, or irl, taking one step is like 100 actions. It may be true by your definition, but then its a pointless statement, its like defining beats per minute of a song, by the number of notes in song and not the pace of the song. his point is the gcd makes the game feel sluggish. if your version of apm doesnt represent speed or pacing, its not really relevant

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by LunarEmerald

A level 80 still complaining about the gcd is more than likely someone who bought a skip potion to 70.

---

gcd feels bad on many classes, it actually feels worse as more games have handled it better. This isn't really an opinion that has much to do with level or time played. i been around since 1.0, and i can say yeah it feels slow and doesn't flow well. some classes more than others. And some levels more than others, but overall, pretty slow by current standards

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roshidon1

I disagree. I think barring a few latency issues the combat has good flow, is fluid and synchronized (well maybe not Ninja, mostly due to latency issues admittedly) minimal animation locks, etc.

You keep comparing FFXIV to other games. This is not those games, and in fact its kind of nice to have something different for a change and not the spam-fest you get with alot of other games.

---

most basic chains flow feels extremely artificial, how is something a combo action , with 2.5 seconds between parts? Now, I do believe some people prefer that to the opposite. but that doesn't mean it flows, I would say most actions being not allowed regardless to length of animation, or length of effect for a specific static amount of time essentially defies the term flow.

you could probably say its like clockwork, but I wouldn't say it has good flow.

I have no idea what you just said tbh. If I didn't know any better I'd say you are arguing semantics.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Roshidon1

I have no idea what you just said tbh. If I didn't know any better I'd say you are arguing semantics.

---

Long story short, counting oGCD weaving, there's an average of 1.8s downtime per action. Which is still a crap ton of downtime in a 15min(titan/inno ex) fight. Basically there's more downtime than uptime, which is a terrible combat model imo.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xyr

Long story short, counting oGCD weaving, there's an average of 1.8s downtime per action. Which is still a crap ton of downtime in a 15min(titan/inno ex) fight. Basically there's more downtime than uptime, which is a terrible combat model imo.

---

*looks at Dark Souls*

*looks at Camera*

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

you can define actions per minute as any button press from the player, but thats nor really relevant when talking about gcds in games. or how much the player has to do.

by your definition, a fighting game where you press two buttons at the same time to throw is two actions, or irl, taking one step is like 100 actions. It may be true by your definition, but then its a pointless statement, its like defining beats per minute of a song, by the number of notes in song and not the pace of the song. his point is the gcd makes the game feel sluggish. if your version of apm doesnt represent speed or pacing, its not really relevant

---

"How much stuff you have to do in a game is not relevant to how much you have to do in a game." 'kay.

So in case you honestly don't get it and aren't just trolling me -- the complaint about the GCD stems from the belief that the game's combat is slow. The combat being slow would be because you have little input between the player and the game. The main method of input is button presses. Can we agree on this?

Unnecessary button presses, like jumping mid-combo or twitching back and forth, are technically input but don't actually result in you doing your role better. We can discard those, since you can do that in any game and they're equally pointless in all of them. What matters is button presses that do result in you doing your job better -- in the case a DPS job in FFXIV, this means doing more damage over time. Can we agree to these terms?

If you press a buff, like, say, "Ten" on Ninja, it counts as an action. Pressing the Ninjutsu button also counts as an action, as you'll throw a shuriken. While not absolutely required, following it "Ten" with "Chi" will result in two actions, with the Ninjutsu button being a third. This results in objectively more damage, and by the standards of the wider video game community, is therefore the correct way to play a DPS role. Can we agree on this, or is my arbitrary definition of "more damage" not something you agree with?

Similarly, if you press "Spinning Edge" then "Gust Slash" then "Aeolian Edge" you will do three actions and damage. However, if you press "Spinning Edge" then "Gust Slash" then "Q" or "E" or "left control stick" to move behind the enemy before then hitting "Aeolian Edge", you will do objectively do more damage, while doing it in the same amount of time. In terms of "damage per second" this results in an increase by pressing a fourth button. This is therefore considered by the wider video game community as the correct way to play a DPS role. The latter series of actions includes 33% more actions -- a significant increase.

And yeah, people do consider multi-button combos as multiple actions and not just one. It's like saying games with autocombos are somehow faster paced to play than games with manual combos. Pressing "X" 15 times in a row is objectively slower gameplay than pressing the 30-40 buttons and stick directions to manually do the exact same combo in the exact same time.

If you want to talk about the general pace of combat, as in how often the boss does actions and how often you need to break for mechanics or change up what you're doing then... sure we can have that conversation, preferably in its own thread because it has absolutely nothing to do with what the OP is talking about.

And stop with the strawman arguments, holy crap. It's embarrassing you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xyr

Long story short, counting oGCD weaving, there's an average of 1.8s downtime per action. Which is still a crap ton of downtime in a 15min(titan/inno ex) fight. Basically there's more downtime than uptime, which is a terrible combat model imo.

---

I know you don't like the "logs" argument but, no yeah we're going there. The reason you think there's such a long time in between actions is because you're doing it wrong. A 1.8s downtime per action would mean an APM of ~33, which is miserably low. Not even counting positionals, it should be about 40 (and that's WITH boss mechanics and forced downtime.) If you're moving to hit your positionals, Samurai would be closer to 50.

Before you hid them (because you don't want to improve?) you weren't even doing 33, you were floating at ~30. You could be hitting 30% more buttons and still be behind other Samurai. This leads me to believe that your belief about the pace of combat being slow has more to do with you not knowing how to play the job at its maximum, and less to do with the game or job.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Powercow

I know you don't like the "logs" argument but, no yeah we're going there. The reason you think there's such a long time in between actions is because you're doing it wrong. A 1.8s downtime per action would mean an APM of ~33, which is miserably low. Not even counting positionals, it should be about 40 (and that's WITH boss mechanics and forced downtime.) If you're moving to hit your positionals, Samurai would be closer to 50.

Before you hid them (because you don't want to improve?) you weren't even doing 33, you were floating at ~30. You could be hitting 30% more buttons and still be behind other Samurai. This leads me to believe that your belief about the pace of combat being slow has more to do with you not knowing how to play the job at its maximum, and less to do with the game or job.

---

That's why I only counted skills, and if you read the skills I posted, I counted all possible skills used within 1 minute + all oGCD skills possibly used given the possible amount of Kenki. 33 is a very good estimate at 95-100% uptime, and it is dully low. Not counting movement(which exists in almost every game, fps, moba, etc). My APM in moba can go upward of 100-200, if I count all the movements, there are only 4 skills to use, so does that mean it's a good combat system? Maybe FFXIV should only have 4 skills then. Movements don't count as they do not make the combat flow better.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xyr

That's why I only counted skills, and if you read the skills I posted, I counted all possible skills used within 1 minute + all oGCD skills possibly used given the possible amount of Kenki. 33 is a very good estimate at 95-100% uptime, and it is dully low. Not counting movement(which exists in almost every game, fps, moba, etc). My APM in moba can go upward of 100-200, if I count all the movements, there are only 4 skills to use, so does that mean it's a good combat system? Maybe FFXIV should only have 4 skills then. Movements don't count as they do not make the combat flow better.

---

I think you do not understand the Samurai rotation if you think 33 is the correct number. Perhaps you can do some more research on the job? There's a reason top Samurai are doing 40-ish.

And saying moving to his positionals doesn't count is like saying Kaiten doesn't count, as you're just pressing a button for more damage. What, functionally, is different between the two? You press a button, and more damage results from it. It's literally the same type of input, in the same timeframe, to get the same type of result. In fact, movement for Samurai results in more Kenki, which turns into more actions which turns into more DPS. For Samurai, positionals make for faster combat than even Kaiten!

I would have given you some tips but, y'know, you hid your logs. This leads me to believe you just want to complain more than you want to understand or improve. Which is fine, I guess. You can yell at a wall though and be just as well-off for it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Powercow

I think you do not understand the Samurai rotation if you think 33 is the correct number. Perhaps you can do some more research on the job? There's a reason top Samurai are doing 40-ish.

And saying moving to his positionals doesn't count is like saying Kaiten doesn't count, as you're just pressing a button for more damage. What, functionally, is different between the two? You press a button, and more damage results from it. It's literally the same type of input, in the same timeframe, to get the same type of result. In fact, movement for Samurai results in more Kenki, which turns into more actions which turns into more DPS. For Samurai, positionals make for faster combat than even Kaiten!

I would have given you some tips but, y'know, you hid your logs. This leads me to believe you just want to complain more than you want to understand or improve. Which is fine, I guess. You can yell at a wall though and be just as well-off for it.

---

Except I already accounted for extra Kenki from positionals in my post. I love how your entire argument is "you ain't doing it right", which is essentially no different than dog poo vs hard solid math. Yelling at a wall sounds absolutely right.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Powercow

Hakaze - 5
Shifu - 5
Kasha - 10
Jinpu - 5
Gekko - 10
Yukikaze - 15

So going through your list:
5 5 10 5 5 - 10 - 5 15 10 - - 10 10 - 5 5 10 5 5 10 - 5 = 135


That's 135 Kenki from GCD skills. So where did you get 105 from? If you can't even add up numbers correctly, what makes you think you're doing your rotation correctly?

I made sure to quote you before you go back and edit it, just for posterity.

Also -- 23 GCD skills takes 60 seconds? With a GCD of 2.13, which is what my undergeared Samurai has at 70 (and I don't even have Enhanced Shifu) 23 GCDs would take (2.13 * 23 =) 48.99 seconds. You know Midare and Higanbana's GCD starts at the start of the cast, not the end right? So they're not taking longer than anything else. I can't personally test Tsubame since I'm not at that level, but even adding in the 1.8s cast time from that you seem to be missing about 9.3 seconds. Remember, this is my crappy gear with essentially no Skillspeed, no Enhanced Shifu. What are you doing the rest of the time?

---

Hit max post limit today so I'm going to edit this one. This is the first post you actually said something other than "You ain't doing it right, logs"

I started out with 2.5s GCD for the rotation, 2.5*23 = 57.5 seconds, because not everybody has 13% speed. Afterwards, I accounted for the 13% skill speed in the post and increased the action counts,, it is below the rotations. Also, I use rotation from balance discord. http://ffxivrotations.com/24az So you can see I didn't just pull it out of nowhere. The only difference between this and mine is potion usage and meditate. As for 105 vs 135 kenki, I might've made a typo putting it into the calculator. However, regardless, it's not enough to make a massive difference in combat style.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Avyiur

I am genuinely curious after reading some of your posts but do you even like FFXIV? Every post you have made you make it sound like all the other MMOs out there are far superior to FFXIV in every way.

Getting back on topic though, I'm surprised you think that SMN feels slow with the new changes in ShB. With the amount of ogcd weaving from regular SMN skills + pet skills, it feels incredibly fast paced at times and I don't see how the job could play with a faster GCD.

In regards to SAM, it could also very well be that this job is not for you, and therefore feels like it plays slow/bad.

Having played faster GCD games, I don't think a faster GCD = better gameplay because the end result is usually the same smashing of 1-4 buttons, similar to your MOBA example. But trying to compare a MOBA to a MMORPG is like comparing apples to oranges. They play entirely differently and have different pace to gameplay.

---

I like the game in every aspect except combat, balance, and job diversity.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xyr

In one minute, 24 GCD skills can be used, note Midare/Higan/Tsubame all have a 1.5s cast time + 2.5s recast.

Listing the GCD skills:

Hakaze ->Shifu -> Kasha -> Hakaze -> Jinpu -> Higanbana -> Gekko -> Hakaze -> Yukikaze -> Kasha(Meikyo 1) -> Midare -> Tsubame Gaeshi -> Kasha(MeiKyo 2) -> Gekko (Meikyo 3) -> Midare -> Hakaze -> Shifu -> Kasha -> Hakaze -> Jinpu -> Gekko -> Midare -> Hakaze

With 13% haste selfbuff, this takes ~60 seconds.


That's a gain of 105 Kenki from GCD skills in 1 minute + Ikishoten 50 per minute - Senei 25 per minute - 4 Kaiten 80 per minute - 2 Shinten 50 kenki per minute.

---

Hakaze - 5
Shifu - 5
Kasha - 10
Jinpu - 5
Gekko - 10
Yukikaze - 15

So going through your list:
5 5 10 5 5 - 10 - 5 15 10 - - 10 10 - 5 5 10 5 5 10 - 5 = 135

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xyr

Except I already accounted for extra kenki from positionals in my post. I love how your entire argument is "you ain't doing it right", which is essentially no different than dog poo vs hard solid math. Yelling at a wall sounds absolutely right.

---

That's 135 Kenki from GCD skills. So where did you get 105 from? If you can't even add up numbers correctly, what makes you think you're doing your rotation correctly?

I made sure to quote you before you go back and edit it, just for posterity.

Also -- 23 GCD skills takes 60 seconds? With a GCD of 2.13, which is what my undergeared Samurai has at 70 (and I don't even have Enhanced Shifu) 23 GCDs would take (2.13 * 23 =) 48.99 seconds. You know Midare and Higanbana's GCD starts at the start of the cast, not the end right? So they're not taking longer than anything else. I can't personally test Tsubame since I'm not at that level, but even adding in the 1.8s cast time from that you seem to be missing about 9.3 seconds. Remember, this is my crappy gear with essentially no Skillspeed, no Enhanced Shifu. What are you doing the rest of the time?

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xyr

Except I already accounted for extra kenki from positionals in my post. I love how your entire argument is "you ain't doing it right", which is essentially no different than dog poo vs hard solid math. Yelling at a wall sounds absolutely right.

---

I am genuinely curious after reading some of your posts but do you even like FFXIV? Every post you have made you make it sound like all the other MMOs out there are far superior to FFXIV in every way.

Getting back on topic though, I'm surprised you think that SMN feels slow with the new changes in ShB. With the amount of ogcd weaving from regular SMN skills + pet skills, it feels incredibly fast paced at times and I don't see how the job could play with a faster GCD.

In regards to SAM, it could also very well be that this job is not for you, and therefore feels like it plays slow/bad.

Having played faster GCD games, I don't think a faster GCD = better gameplay because the end result is usually the same smashing of 1-4 buttons, similar to your MOBA example. But trying to compare a MOBA to a MMORPG is like comparing apples to oranges. They play entirely differently and have different pace to gameplay.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xyr

Basically there's more downtime than uptime, which is a terrible combat model imo.

---

Yikes. Name a game with a good combat system where "action input" uptime supercedes downtime. Even Dynasty Warriors (on harder difficulties) requires some variety instead of constantly spamming combos, and I'm hesitant to call that "good".

Consider what you're suggesting: including FFXIV's frequently available oGCDs, you're looking at sustaining a rate of 3-4 actions per every 3 seconds over the duration of a fight. Animations become shorter and more repetitive, lag/latency-induced clipping becomes more prevalent, and job complexity is inevitably reduced to match the higher APM.

That isn't interesting gameplay. That's slow button mashing. Throw in latency and lag spikes and you get plain-old button mashing.

I'm with you on FFXIV getting a full action-RPG revamp, but since that's never going to happen, making it into a Simon-says clicker game is not an improvement.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xyr

Hit max post limit today so I'm going to edit this one.

I started out with 2.5s GCD for the rotation, 2.5*23 = 57.5 seconds, because not everybody has 13% speed. Afterwards, I accounted for the 13% skill speed in the post and increased the action counts,, it is below the rotations. Also, I use rotation from balance discord. http://ffxivrotations.com/24az So you can see I didn't just pull it out of nowhere. The only difference between this and mine is potion usage and meditate. As for 105 vs 135 kenki, I might've made a typo putting it into the calculator. However, that 30 extra Kenki adds 1 extra attack, bumping it from 33-34. Not enough to make a massive difference in combat style.

---

First, 2.5 * 24 is exactly 60 so not sure why you did 23. Second, you can't just say "oh but I don't count X Y and Z" for no reason at all. You have to take the entire package of a job. The extra actions also turn into extra Kenki, which turns into more actions.

If you have a high Skillspeed amount you should be able to get 30 GCDs in no problem per minute.. So your 23-step minute-long whateverthehell is not only missing the 30 Kenki, but also 7 more GCD's worth of Kenki (so let's assuming you finish your combo and do the others, so 5 10 5 5 10 5 15.) So 65 Kenki + 30 you miscounted, or almost an additional 4 actions. That's 11, *eleven* actions you missed per minute. That's a huge amount! You said it was 33 actions per minute, but it should be 44 -- 33.3% (hey didn't I say 30% from the start? Not bad for a cursory glance right?) more than you thought it was. That is a "massive difference in combat style."

So you talk about MOBAs a bunch. Imagine if you saw someone on a MOBA forum who used their skills in the wrong order, or who couldn't land a skillshot to save their life and that person began complaining how the game's combat sucks. He the proceeded to throw out a bunch of important-sounding numbers and grandiose statements, but upon even a moderate read you look at them and think, "What? No, crits don't work that way. DoTs don't work that way. Skillshots don't work that way! Armor doesn't work that way! Nothing this guy said has been accurate!"

Would you look at that guy and think, "man, this guy's opinion on the game's systems is super valuable! He's entirely in the right!" Or would you look at him and think, "oh man, this guy's got some wildly wrong assumptions about game mechanics. Maybe I should tell him how it is?"

Now to be helpful, even though you didn't ask and don't deserve it (maybe someone else reading this will learn from it, even if you don't):

Are you hesitating on your GCDs to hit positionals? In almost all cases just hitting the button is better than getting into position and delaying your GCD, so if you're holding off to dodge a boss's move it's usually better to go ahead and just hit it.
Are you hesitating due to a lack of confidence in your rotation? If so, the best way to practice I've found is to take a piece of paper or book and cover up your hotbars and just practice on a dummy until you can do it.
Are you using macros? If so, STOP. Macros do not queue actions in this game, so at absolute best if you use a macro you're adding your latency onto every GCD'd macro you have. Over time this results in a massive loss.
Are you hesitating to dodge boss AOEs? With a handful of exceptions where bosses continue to melt the area (the last boss of Holminster does it with the chain + conal) you can dash right in after the ground AOE disappears. Visually it'll look like you got hit, but as long as the center of your hitbox isn't in the danger area of the ground marker before it disappears you won't be hit. The same also applies to stuff like the purple markers on Titania or most Eden fights -- you won't hit an ally assuming the effect disappeared before you moved back in.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Powercow

"How much stuff you have to do in a game is not relevant to how much you have to do in a game." 'kay.

So in case you honestly don't get it and aren't just trolling me -- the complaint about the GCD stems from the belief that the game's combat is slow. The combat being slow would be because you have little input between the player and the game. The main method of input is button presses. Can we agree on this?

Unnecessary button presses, like jumping mid-combo or twitching back and forth, are technically input but don't actually result in you doing your role better. We can discard those, since you can do that in any game and they're equally pointless in all of them. What matters is button presses that do result in you doing your job better -- in the case a DPS job in FFXIV, this means doing more damage over time. Can we agree to these terms?

If you press a buff, like, say, "Ten" on Ninja, it counts as an action. Pressing the Ninjutsu button also counts as an action, as you'll throw a shuriken. While not absolutely required, following it "Ten" with "Chi" will result in two actions, with the Ninjutsu button being a third. This results in objectively more damage, and by the standards of the wider video game community, is therefore the correct way to play a DPS role. Can we agree on this, or is my arbitrary definition of "more damage" not something you agree with?

Similarly, if you press "Spinning Edge" then "Gust Slash" then "Aeolian Edge" you will do three actions and damage. However, if you press "Spinning Edge" then "Gust Slash" then "Q" or "E" or "left control stick" to move behind the enemy before then hitting "Aeolian Edge", you will do objectively do more damage, while doing it in the same amount of time. In terms of "damage per second" this results in an increase by pressing a fourth button. This is therefore considered by the wider video game community as the correct way to play a DPS role. The latter series of actions includes 33% more actions -- a significant increase.

And yeah, people do consider multi-button combos as multiple actions and not just one. It's like saying games with autocombos are somehow faster paced to play than games with manual combos. Pressing "X" 15 times in a row is objectively slower gameplay than pressing the 30-40 buttons and stick directions to manually do the exact same combo in the exact same time.

If you want to talk about the general pace of combat, as in how often the boss does actions and how often you need to break for mechanics or change up what you're doing then... sure we can have that conversation, preferably in its own thread because it has absolutely nothing to do with what the OP is talking about.

And stop with the strawman arguments, holy crap. It's embarrassing you.

---

nothing is embarrassing me, you are trying to say I should be embarrassed.

the pace of combat, and the lockout between significant actions is his complaint.



the fact that some classes, at sometimes act frequently does not mean combat feels fluid or fast.

if you have 3 ogcds, that refresh every 60 seconds, that means essentially most of the time, your pace is once every 2.5 seconds, and then for a short while your pace goes up.

also, most people do not count multiple button presses to do one action as an extra action. is my apm doubled when I set my controls to activate when I press alt +1 key?

is me holding a shoulder button to activate a different action suddenly making gameplay faster?

his point is the game feels slow and stilted, you know that.

if 70% of the time I play I can only press a button once every 2.5 seconds, and 30% of the time I can press it every .5 seconds, that doesn't mean the pace of the game is fast. Basically your analysis understands pacing as the mathematical mean, when most people judge pacing by the mathematical mode. Ie, how long do I usually have to wait between actions, rather than overall, how many actions can I take in a minute.

this is why I used songs, a song isn't fast paced just because it has a drum solo at the end. Telling someone who says I hate slow songs, just wait, at the 2 minute mark, the press tons of keys in the piano solo misses the entire point of their premise.

for some classes they have enough ogcds, on short enough cooldown, that they feel fast, because it doesn't generally feel like you are waiting 2.5 seconds, on others they do feel like most of the time you are waiting.

lowering the gcd would definitely increase the pace of most classes, which is what the OP says he is looking for.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Powercow

I think you do not understand the Samurai rotation if you think 33 is the correct number. Perhaps you can do some more research on the job? There's a reason top Samurai are doing 40-ish.

And saying moving to his positionals doesn't count is like saying Kaiten doesn't count, as you're just pressing a button for more damage. What, functionally, is different between the two? You press a button, and more damage results from it. It's literally the same type of input, in the same timeframe, to get the same type of result. In fact, movement for Samurai results in more Kenki, which turns into more actions which turns into more DPS. For Samurai, positionals make for faster combat than even Kaiten!

I would have given you some tips but, y'know, you hid your logs. This leads me to believe you just want to complain more than you want to understand or improve. Which is fine, I guess. You can yell at a wall though and be just as well-off for it.

---

the reason people don't count movements is because this is a comparitive thing, if you count movements here, then you count it all other games, and it still feels slow by comparison.

the other thing here, is his logs might show him how he can improve at this system, but it generally doesn't change the pace of the game. even if he is pressing them at the wrong times dps wise, or has crappy gear, or misses 2 gcds per minute, that doesn't change the overall pace of the game. His goal isn't simply to press 55 buttons in a minute, his goal would probably be to have there be 1 second between button presses the majority of the time he plays.(just an example). This is why speaks about the gcd instead of asking for more 60 second recast ogcds. Having a 8 second span of time where he presses 16 buttons might feel awesome, but he will still feel the game is slow the other 52 seconds out of the minute.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

the reason people don't count movements is because this is a comparitive thing, if you count movements here, then you count it all other games

---

There hasn't been positionals in WoW in like a decade. You are deliberately misinterpreting things. I'm done talking to you.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Powercow

Snip

---

23 because I thought Midare took longer than 2.5s. I don't use macros. Sure my rotation wasn't on par when I just started lvling, however now it's much better. As I said before my logs on those two fights were bad because I never done it before and was just winging it. My play isn't perfect, nor do I do perfectly in every fight, however, I do good enough once a while to know that the combat is very meh and slow paced without a natural course of flow. I don't need to be top 10 ranked to know that. I will momentarily unhide my logs, however I hide them because privacy, simple as that, why should I display my information to everybody? I'm not a politician.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xyr

23 because I thought Midare took longer than 2.5s. I don't use macros. Sure my rotation wasn't on par when I just started lvling, however now it's much better. As I said before my logs on those two fights were bad because I never done it before and was just winging it. My play isn't perfect, nor do I do perfectly in every fight, however, I do good enough once a while to know that the combat is very meh and slow paced without a natural course of flow. I don't need to be top 10 ranked to know that. I will momentarily unhide my logs, however I hide them because privacy, simple as that, why should I display my information to everybody? I'm not a politician.

---

[Senator Armstrong intensifies] Am I getting through to him?

The reason I pointed to your logs is that, from as far as I can tell your complaint is that the Samurai rotation is slow and has no smooth flow to it. However, few people share this complaint (about Samurai anyway), and the job itself is fairly fast, even compared to its contemporaries in WoW. So the natural response is to see if something is off with the playstyle -- I've had people tell me Black Mage sucks and is boring to play only to see their playstyle is "Fire III -> Blizzard III -> repeat." Your rotation isn't as much of a comedic mess as that, but it does seem to have the same problem I see time and time again with people in melee roles -- they're simply not pushing enough buttons fast enough. Compound that core issue with the fact your complaints were that the rotation is slow and, well, it seemed like a very easy-to-fix problem. Just play faster and it's entirely possible that the gameplay won't feel as slow.

Part of the problem, I think, is your current experience is with entry-level stuff and you're a bit of an MMO vet. The current Extreme primals are a joke and there's a lot of time during them where nothing is happening. Even the normal raids regularly have people just standing there. Frankly, the jobs aren't super well-suited to easy content. It's actually one of the main flaws I have with this game -- low level gameplay is boring for anyone who's played an MMO before.

Nobody is expecting you to be in the top 10, but looking to those in the top 10 is a great way to learn. You can see what they're doing that you're not, and see if mimicking them can lead to improvement.

Also, hiding your personal information is like, the most politician-like thing you can possibly do. Hide those skeletons in that closet!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Powercow

Are you hesitating due to a lack of confidence in your rotation? If so, the best way to practice I've found is to take a piece of paper or book and cover up your hotbars and just practice on a dummy until you can do it.

---

You can just create a macro for hiding and showing your skillbars with "/hotbar display [Number]" :)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xyr

Out of all the MMORPG(s) I've played(WoW, Black Desert, Tera, ESO, Blade and Soul, Guild Wars 2, and FFXIV), FFXIV has the longest GCD and the most clunky combat. I don't know what was the design intent behind such a long recast time? Have you guys ever been stunned for 2.5s during combat? It feels like 2 hours. That's how it feels to sit there waiting for that 2.5s every skill. Even stacking Skill Speed + 13% from my buff only reduce it to 2seconds.

IMO, in terms of content, FFXIV is only behind WoW. In terms of graphics, it is only behind Black Desert, but in terms of combat it's really near last out of all the popular MMOs. FFXIII-3 and FFXV both had great and fluid combat, so why can't FFXIV after numerous expansions?

---

Here is this post again. So here we go! First You don’t explain what “clunky” combat is. (I hate when ppl say that, the combat is very smooth) Your numbers don’t make since ether. A quick google search and you can find a interview with yoshi p talking about the GCD. Basically the devs said they want every skill you cast to mean something and not button mash. A 1.5 GCD doesn’t allow for a few things like spell animations, difficult raid mechanics. And melee would never move. Sorry but your post is dumb

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Powercow

Snip

---

No, faster raid mechanics don't have anything to do with it. Simple example, BDO has amazing combat that flows very well, yet there's no dungeons or raids. You don't need difficult bosses to know whether the combat is good or bad. I know even when I do nearly perfect on my rotation that the playstyle is not very fast, every action doesn't feel like it leads to the next naturally other than that the next skill lights up. As for weaving, the amount of extra skills are very limited by the Kenki, not to mention the idea of "weaving" itself is an unnatural concept. It's basically "here, while you are waiting for your combos to come up, use this completely unrelated skill as filler.

It's essentially watching a TV show and every 3 episodes, one episode is a filler, it has nothing to do with the plot whatsoever and is only there to fill the timeslot.

As for the thing about politicians. I completely disagree. People don't have to show others their taxes, they don't have to show others their income, they don't even need to show others their birthday. SE doesn't show FFXIV subscription numbers. Everything is private, and for a good reason. What does it mean when they don't show such information? Absolutely nothing.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Tryzn

Here is this post again. So here we go! First You don’t explain what “clunky” combat is. (I hate when ppl say that, the combat is very smooth) Your numbers don’t make since ether. A quick google search and you can find a interview with yoshi p talking about the GCD. Basically the devs said they want every skill you cast to mean something and not button mash. A 1.5 GCD doesn’t allow for a few things like spell animations, difficult raid mechanics. And melee would never move. Sorry but your post is dumb

---

Clunky combat, one, it's slow paced, two each action seems like an individual action of its own, it doesn't direct into the next action or make it feel like they are connected to each other. Their animations don't connect with each other. Imagine hitting a punching bag, you punch it with your right-hand, now there are many actions that would flow rather nicely, since your lefthand is pulled back, it is in position to strike, or you could kick with the leg that is positioned well. However, instead of striking with any bodypart that has good momentum, you instead extend your chest and strike them with it. It does not make sense, and there's no natural flow. That's how ffxiv combat feels. The only thing that make those skills connected is a light that lights up saying "hey, this button is the next combo." Every skill is going to matter as long as they're high potency, mashing or not has no relevance.


And saying that low gcd doesn't allow for animation or raid mechanics is just bad design.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Xyr

No, faster raid mechanics don't have anything to do with it. Simple example, BDO has amazing combat that flows very well, yet there's no dungeons or raids. You don't need difficult bosses to know whether the combat is good or bad. I know even when I do nearly perfect on my rotation that the playstyle is not very fast, every action doesn't feel like it leads to the next naturally other than that the next skill lights up. As for weaving, the amount of extra skills are very limited by the Kenki, not to mention the idea of "weaving" itself is an unnatural concept. It's basically "here, while you are waiting for your combos to come up, use this completely unrelated skill as filler.

It's essentially watching a TV show and every 3 episodes, one episode is a filler, it has nothing to do with the plot whatsoever and is only there to fill the timeslot.

---

So you like DMC, BDO, etc. Have you tried one of those rhythm games like Osu! or StepMania or something? Those are much faster but would likely ruin your enjoyment of those other games. I get the feeling that raw speed seems to be the only thing that matters, and only in a vacuum, completely devoid of any context. You keep compartmentalizing the individual aspects of combat, it's a mental thing that some people have trouble overcoming. You say the opponent doesn't matter in terms of making the fight interesting, which is a... unique sentiment. To you, fighting a training dummy needs to be as exciting as fighting a dragon god. A perfect example was earlier with you thinking that "I can take X skills and just multiply it by 13%", completely missing the extra Kenki you would have gotten. It's like you see a tree, and another tree, and all these other trees but can't see there's a forest there.

As for your TV analogy, bizarre as it is... FFXIV's combat is more like an episode. No good TV show is "100% GOGOGO" the whole time. Action movies, Kung Fu movies, even stuff like DBZ knows that in order to keep the audience engaged you need to slow down sometimes. Take any epic battle scene -- a lightsaber duel, a fighter jet battle, an epic cavalry charge, whatever it is and you'll see that there's always moments where things slow down. Do you flip out at the movie for taking a moment to breathe? Without those moments, the more exciting times aren't exciting. It gets exhausting. Same thing happens with MMOs -- if you have a spec that's ALL OUT ALL THE TIME then it gets very boring after a while.

Also I watched a BDO combat video and... yikes you wanna talk about animations not flowing? I couldn't find an example of any two skills used in sequence that didn't look jarring as hell. Know what might help make it flow? Slowing it down a notch so the animation could finish. But nah, let's do a spin, then when the sword is behind my back and I'm facing the wrong way snap to me facing forward and slamming the ground -- only to snap into me charging forward with my sword at a completely different angle. Such flow, such smooth, such not-clunky!

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pepsi_Plunge

You can just create a macro for hiding and showing your skillbars with "/hotbar display [Number]" :)

---

*looks at old textbook*
Well old friend, it seems you've been replaced...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Powercow

There hasn't been positionals in WoW in like a decade. You are deliberately misinterpreting things. I'm done talking to you.

---

he wasn't just talking about wow, the OP mentions blade and soul, gw2, and Tera as well. have you ever played these games?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eErnAyxCmnE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWIBSxrkLso

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-93iXO3V88

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWg475UhF7c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d_cROszlsQ



If you look and see how often they press buttons, and the lack of gcds, you can see why he might find ffxiv slow and clunky with gcds.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Physic

he wasn't just talking about wow, the OP mentions blade and soul, gw2, and Tera as well. have you ever played these games?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eErnAyxCmnE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EWIBSxrkLso

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f-93iXO3V88

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gWg475UhF7c

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-d_cROszlsQ



If you look and see how often they press buttons, and the lack of gcds, you can see why he might find ffxiv slow and clunky with gcds.

---

But they're comparing apples and oranges. Them and BDO are closer to action games, while XIV is probably closer to a rhythm game in its weird attempt to combine something akin to WoW and FF's ATB system.

It is good to see OP enjoy B&S, Tera and BDO those action base MMORPG, they are aiming at the audience like OP
Yet, not every game cater to every type of players. Some people just enjoy the pace of FFXIV and might not found those action base fun.
It is perfectly reasonable to have a say about something you don’t like, but that doesn’t mean we have to follow those game.
This 2.5s have been with us since 2.0 and I doubt it will ever get change

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Misutoraru

It is good to see OP enjoy B&S, Tera and BDO those action base MMORPG, they are aiming at the audience like OP
Yet, not every game cater to every type of players. Some people just enjoy the pace of FFXIV and might not found those action base fun.
It is perfectly reasonable to have a say about something you don’t like, but that doesn’t mean we have to follow those game.
This 2.5s have been with us since 2.0 and I doubt it will ever get change

---

They could always go back to the Tanaka era. Wait for the stamina bar to fill to execute a basic attack to generate TP to wait for the stamina bar to fill to execute a more advanced attack that cost more stamina, wait for the stamina bar to fill...

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daralii

They could always go back to the Tanaka era. Wait for the stamina bar to fill to execute a basic attack to generate TP to wait for the stamina bar to fill to execute a more advanced attack that cost more stamina, wait for the stamina bar to fill...

---

Light Strike -> Feint -> repeat

*vomits in nostalgia*

It was a good effort, Powercow (funny name considering I play a Tauren in WoW) but I don't think XYR is listening.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Daralii

They could always go back to the Tanaka era. Wait for the stamina bar to fill to execute a basic attack to generate TP to wait for the stamina bar to fill to execute a more advanced attack that cost more stamina, wait for the stamina bar to fill...

---

they had an iteration of the combat that was pretty fun, right before they added the first version of this one. Basically they bossted stamina gain drasticly, i remember drg could set up an insane doomspike line aoe combo.

overall ffxiv combat is a weird beast, for me, overall, I would say the gcd type system is probably one of the weakest points of the game overall, it doesn't feel strategic/tactical/deliberative enough to have the mandatory wait times, maybe if you could queue actions...

anyhow the game is what it is, and gcd aint going anywhere, but I definitely understand the OP's point, especially as I come back to ffxiv after a break.

I recognize though many of this games players specifically requested lower apm back before 2.0, and what I dislike might be part of why they picked this game.