New drk is too much fun!

Funnily enough I like new DRK I said before I wasn't gonna like it but been messing around at lvl 72 and my god it's way more fun than SB DRK by miles! I love how hard hitting and impactful a lot of the skills are I only have minor gripes with the class i.e under lvl 60 it sucks since you don't have access to TBN my proposal:

-Give DRKs TBN at lvl 62 instead of Bloodspiller
-Change Bloodspiller to lvl 68 and Delirium to lvl 70
-Change Living Dead
-Recast time for TBN to 10-12 seconds Or make it last 9 seconds from 7 seconds

Honestly that's about it I really like how put together it is after lvl 72 when you get Stalwart Soul and I like pooling mana to use TBN since it's so darn powerful the boss in the first ShB dungeon his TB was hitting me for 10k and I was Soul Eater healing myself through his autos. Was super fun.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

People are complaining about the new DRK, because they took one of the highest apm classes in the game that was, imo, really fun to optimimise and micro manage, and turned it into braindead dump mana every min whilst using worse inner release thats slower. Warrior already exists, we didn't need warrior with edgy paintjob.

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It wasnt rewarding also SB DRK would look like a little boy in comparison to the new War, PLD or even a gunbreaker.
They had to redo him, if they leave him at as he was in SB then it would be a tremendous PR failure in shadowbringers and i dont have to write down why.
People liking old DRK are minority, it was least played tank class for a reason.
You maybe forgot about the bad sides of SB DRK.
Playing that DRK took lot of effort for less rewards than other tanks, it would be even worse especially today. Also DA spam was limiting the design, you couldnt add anymore cool oGCD into that, since DA animation lock was terrible and really hard to double weave with higher ping, you already had 3 oGCD that would boost your damage with DA, but also 2 others on top of it which were essential to use and another 2 which were a waste of DPS if not used in time.
It also had a terrible balance problems, it was super different fighting single target and multiple targets, you would be flooding with MP when fighting a group of enemies and be lacking MP when fighting single target, same with healing, do i really need to tell why it was bad and why SE decided to make it the way it is now? It would be impossible to give SB DRK new stuff because of it, it would give different outcomes in dungeons and raids.
It wasnt all that fast fighting single target on DRK, blood generation was way lower than now too and you used your signature skills way less than today, it was 1-2-3 combo + DA all night and day, there wasnt anything exciting about it.
I played on and off DRK in stormblood, i liked it before i tried to play other tanks.

DRK is better now, he is not as clunky and counter-intuitive to play, and could do a ton of damage when played right. Thats why so many people are enjoying it today.

You know, DRK archive world first in both ultimates bcs it was fun, ppl how raid with him and didn't have a raid team that force him to switch play it BCS was fun, the low pick rate of DRK was mostly by ppl locking it out from PF and raid recruiting groups when the job was in a bad position not BCS the job wasn't fun.

And DRK didn't have balance problems, the MP generation and usage was well calculated, you only have problems if you are bad at management resources, for no say SB DRK have the best aoe gameplay of all tanks and expansions hands down.

Btw dark arts and new oGCD are not incompatible, if you make it cost less mp that DA and add more potency you have a nice alternative to spend your MP, in fact more oGCD with fair MP cost it's what DRK need it to reduce the DA spam.

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Originally Posted by shao32

You know, DRK archive world first in both ultimates bcs it was fun, ppl how raid with him and didn't have a raid team that force him to switch play it BCS was fun, the low pick rate of DRK was mostly by ppl locking it out from PF and raid recruiting groups when the job was in a bad position not BCS the job wasn't fun.

And DRK didn't have balance problems, the MP generation and usage was well calculated, you only have problems if you are bad at management resources, for no say SB DRK have the best aoe gameplay of all tanks and expansions hands down.

Btw dark arts and new oGCD are not incompatible, if you make it cost less mp that DA and add more potency you have a nice alternative to spend your MP, in fact more oGCD with fair MP cost it's what DRK need it to reduce the DA spam.

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World first i did heard about it, but you know who was the second tank in there? DRK didnt played alone in that savage raid.

Fun is relative.
A ton of people dont enjoy a job or class if its not performing well enough, and this is fact, majority of people do not feel like to play a weak class no matter their design. It could be enjoyable or as SB DRK has been called, as a unnecessary fiddling for worse results comparing to other tanks.

MP generation wasnt well calculated, you would overcap it in a moment when fighting multiple enemies, and it was opposite when fighting singe target if you wanted to generate any kind of burst.
AOE gameplay being the best is your personal opinion, i am not going to argue with it but i remind you of the skills being used against multiple targets.
SB DRK had rarely used dark passenger doing 140 potency, abyssal drain which costed mana and dealt only 120 potency damage, and quietus, all these could have been enchanted with DA.
Current DRK has unleash>stalwart which generate both mana and blood and deals a lot more dmg, quietus which is used more frequently due to aoe combo being able to generate blood, delirium quietus combo, abyssal drain as oGCD and flood of shadow to use MP on.
Current DRK is way more complex in AOE department, this is a fact, it is no longer a abyssal spam + quietus somewhere in the middle when blood weapon and salted earth is up, current DRK also deals way more potency in AOE than SB DRK, this alone does contribute into the feeling of the class, since you hit harder you feel it better.
Numbers does matter, new DRK has them on their side.

PLD both cases.

Fun is relative as the perception of what is a good design or not, inner release is not a good design as my perspective but for you meanby is so we are in the same ground, you perception of what is a good design is not superior to mine.

I agree a underperforming job isn't going to be played much bcs obvious reasons but that's independent of his design, it's a question about numbers.

It was well calculated, first of all DRK have a more sustained performance, isn't was meant to do any kind of heavy burst window at all so you manage you MP all the time to keep the same pace all the time not burn everything and run out of MP aka no TBN.

Current aoe rotation generate so little resources you can't spam flood, the blood generation give you so little Quietus uses and the skill is not impactful at all and you spend the rest of the time doing 1-2. old rotation gives you more sustained resources generation, using TBN to generate blood to use Quietus to generate mana and use all that mana with DA-AD give you a lot of dps and self heals something this new version can't do, SB gives you dps strong self heals and good sustain so you don't fall sleep spamming 1-2, and dark passenger was a direct DPS gain with 2 and more targets since the begining, the DA potency to all targets was insane.

So I don't consider 1-2 + Quietus/oGCD when they care to recast or have resources necessary to being used a hour later is more complex and sinergice better that old rotation since the last one give you always constant resources for free TBN and this one no, and I doubt this one dealt more dps apart of the low resource generation you need to be carry by you healer more that before.

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Originally Posted by Lucky27

How come people are complaining about the new dark knight? This spin2win aggressive style of drk is a blast! Who actually had fun doing dark arts spam? I was a healer main who played drk for fun in dgns but dam im maining this version of drk! Im like an evil warrior lol. Spin2win! See you ast! Let the darkness consume my healing ways. Who agrees with me?

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Haven’t go deep into DRK in 5.0, just give it a brief test and already like it more than SB DRK, but well no surprise for me as I always found SB DRK to be worse than HW and very broken

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Current DRK is way more complex in AOE department, this is a fact, it is no longer a abyssal spam + quietus somewhere in the middle when blood weapon and salted earth is up, current DRK also deals way more potency in AOE than SB DRK, this alone does contribute into the feeling of the class, since you hit harder you feel it better.
Numbers does matter, new DRK has them on their side.

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I would have a lit more to say but im on a train and fun is relative is a very concise way of putting it, but youre wrong in general about it being badly designed, all of its kit had a nice purpose that you could use and optimise.

However im gonna stop you right here on this aoe statement because its blatantly false, the flow of tbn -> quietus -> dark passenger ->Quietus -> drain -> tbn ect was way more complex and rewarding than current drk, and could make you an unstoppable monster with health drain shielding and damage constantly. Now its unleash, stalwart flood/tbn when you have mana and quietus spam jn delrium, its way way less complex, not to mention a longer cd lower damage salted earth means holding mobs in it is less necessary.

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

I would have a lit more to say but im on a train and fun is relative is a very concise way of putting it, but youre wrong in general about it being badly designed, all of its kit had a nice purpose that you could use and optimise.

However im gonna stop you right here on this aoe statement because its blatantly false, the flow of tbn -> quietus -> dark passenger ->Quietus -> drain -> tbn ect was way more complex and rewarding than current drk, and could make you an unstoppable monster with health drain shielding and damage constantly. Now its unleash, stalwart flood/tbn when you have mana and quietus spam jn delrium, its way way less complex, not to mention a longer cd lower damage salted earth means holding mobs in it is less necessary.

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Not sure how its blatantly false...? It possibly had a better, more strict rhythm to it, but it was in no way more complex than what we have now. Also it was THE best aoe rotation between the tanks (by complexity, strength AND sustain), making it the de-facto king of tank aoe. The only thing we've really lost is the sustain with AD now on a horridly long cd.

CDs are longer but currently for aoe you juggle and manage mp and blood, rotating: Unleash - Stalwart Soul, Flood of Shadows, AD, Salted, Quietus, Living Shadow (not sure about if this is a gain over Quietus in a aoe situation). You also pop Delirium, TBN and Blood Weapon on cd.

That is a respectable number of skills for an aoe rotation. I liked both aoe rotations, but wouldn't say one is oh so much better than the other (aside from the fact that 4.0 DRK was a self healing aoe monster that should not have survived into this current aoe tank meta).

I much prefer the way Darkside and mana spending is managed now. Edge/Flood is much better than poking the dark arts button all the time. TBN was always great and its even better now.
I do think I'd prefer to gain and spend mana more quickly, however. Take flood/edges damage down but increase mana gain so you can use them more often. As it is now, you kinda burn everthing quickly and then have a bit of a lull.

The one thing I just don't like is Delirium. It's knock-off Inner Release and should really do something else.
Here's a concept: Delerium is a funky buff/transformation to the Souleater and AOE combos. Like it turns Hard Slash into the original Delirium Weapon Skill, Syphon Strike into Power Slash and Soul Eater into Scourge. Each does buffed damage, adds mana and blood, and Scourge finishes off with a long duration dot?

People just like the instant result rather than using Dark Arts and then hitting another button.

DRK feels weird now and burns through mana faster. I guess that means I’m bad but I managed Dark Arts just fine so why am I burning faster? It may have been calculated out how your rotation/how much spam is expected but it doesn’t feel that way with the nerf tools and lower MP pool.

It’s not a bad class, heck it’s not like it’s Monk or Heavensward Bard. But I’m not feeling this version of Dark Knight and I maimed it as my tank the last 2 expansions.

Time to level WAR I guess cause they can’t balance it just make the other tanks more like it

The blood gauge was the death of DA, but it had to be because DA was not really "different" but it was a brilliant way of making stacks of wrath super enjoyable. HW DRK could safely DA moves approx the same amount of time 1 wrath ability could be executed in proper play, but yoou had the option to spend them or not, r even double weave for burst unlike WAR. When the beast gauge became the stacks of wrath indicator, all of a sudden DA encroached on that. Blood gauge being super limited is a good example of why DRK is broken in this, and in some ways SB iterations. The MP management was already like a beast gauge in 3.0 but now they had 2 resource gauges. Theyre doing PLD this way too, trying to lock in some defensives into its gauge . The whole system just doesnt work with DRK original concept. But instead of looking at PLD, they go to WAR for ideas. Im fully convinced that DS should just get the heavy thrust treatment, and we can finally just use mp for the direct situation at hand, like PLD, over the WAR DMG dominator usage of theirs. AD should be a blood ability for sure, or back to how it was in SB. Theyre having a rather difficult time with this gauge nonsense, and now that mp is a shared resource that mind you, isnt even spent on our aoes anymore like in the past, its sort of moot. Itll suck for sure,, its not original DRK but we have to face the facts that mp is just a sorry gated resoource, thats meant to slow casters and healers down and it does show already in this expansion that mp usage, on those two role types esp is taxing in a way we havent much seen before. Case and point being that even if mp upkeep is gone, they could at least give us similar gameplay through the use of blood. Have MP circulate blood windows, etc. Use MP for more Blood. More blood, more apm. I think this is why it still feels disembodied and broken. The rework didnt do a whole lot to fix that because theyre too scared to just DO IT. We have to accept that, that SB management is gone, look how our unleash combo grants mp. Outside of that, there really isnt much else they can do. We could still have had DA work the same but instead cost blood. They didnt do that, they shouldve, but didnt.

There are few changes I'd make to the current DRK.

- Blackblood GCDs used under Delirium increased to 600 MP from 200 MP, granting a Flood/Edge/TBN if you can hit all 5 GCDs.
- Salted Earth's Duration increased by 15 seconds, potency increased by 30, or cooldown reduced by 30 seconds.
- Unleashed and Stalwart Soul changed to Weaponskills to let them be affected by Skillspeed instead of Spellspeed, removing the 2.50 recast and allowing the user to get 5 of them back-to-back under Bloodweapon easier.

Can't really think of anything else I have any glaring issues with. I'm enjoying ShB DRK. More than HW? We'll see. More than SB? Yes.

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Originally Posted by Otorinth

- Unleashed and Stalwart Soul changed to Weaponskills to let them be affected by Skillspeed instead of Spellspeed, removing the 2.50 recast and allowing the user to get 5 of them back-to-back under Bloodweapon easier.

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I do want to address this. While it's kinda cool we get spells for our AoE basically, given it's based on Spellspeed that can throw off some of the math when it comes to rotation and other effects. PLD also has this same issue with some of it's abilities.

I'd fully support this idea but it wouldn't be enough for me to come back. More a thing for the Devs to keep in mind going forward cause I hope that next expansion does see us gifted with more spells.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

I do want to address this. While it's kinda cool we get spells for our AoE basically, given it's based on Spellspeed that can throw off some of the math when it comes to rotation and other effects. PLD also has this same issue with some of it's abilities.

I'd fully support this idea but it wouldn't be enough for me to come back. More a thing for the Devs to keep in mind going forward cause I hope that next expansion does see us gifted with more spells.

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The Paladin has the advantage that requiescat lasts 11 seconds. The additional second makes it easier to deal with the spell gcd

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Numbers does matter, new DRK has them on their side.

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And yet it doesn't feel fun to play for me. Numbers aren't the only thing that absolutely matter otherwise I'd expect everyone to be playing BLM and BRD from what I understand of DPS talk.

Shadowbringers might have the better numbers but it feels stiff and jarring to play for me. This is a skip for using the class for me. Heck, I under-preformed more than likely on the last 2 versions of DRK but I liked those 2 versions. I don't like how this one feels to play. Stormblood felt odd but it also felt like a step up. Heavensward was to use Dark Arts on 1-2 skills, so Stormblood gave us more things to use it on and let us use it even more/faster. Now, we're expected to... not spam and not use Dark Arts at all? It's just gone? That feels weird.

Yes I know it's not gone but it's locked behind breaking TBN now and really that's a dumb idea to me.

DRK now feels off. Is it good or better than before? I don't know but I know I probably won't play it to find out because it just feels too off and clunky. Which is funny because that's what everyone complaining about Dark Arts said.

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Originally Posted by Lersayil

I'll also put down an optimistic yes.

I'll have to see how it goes in EX dungeons and above, but I like the generic feel of the changes.

Only things I would complain about are:

• long cooldowns on AB and Salted Earth
  
• on better gear it might be hard to break the shield to get the lost dps back
  
• a very slightly higher mana generation. Having a natural Edge/Flood every 20 seconds is a bit too little. Shaving off 2-3 seconds off that migt alleviate some of the downtime when you are on cooldown.

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Same as you. But now I have to choose when putting my TB if I went it breaks or no. If I don't need TB cuz Innocence EX is weak so I put my 3000 mp in the dps ! YEAH !

Only real complaint for me is the levels drk gets abilities
From what i can tell its the only tank to not get its 2nd aoe combo til shadowbringer content
Makes synced content alot less interesting for drk, let alone not getting TBN til 70 still, kinda wish they'd move it to a lower level since it's such a big part of the defensive kit

HW DRK like playing a piano- loved it.
SB DRK slow and boring- hate it
ShB DRK fast and exciting- love it.

If you think Shb DRK is fast and exciting compared to SB DRK then you were not playing the class at a high level no offense btw but SB DRK was considerably faster with more options and resource management synergy between skills and effects in general.

Right now the only actual skill interaction you got is TBN break into Flood

Delirium no longer affects other skills just lets you use bloodspiller 5 times

Blood weapon no longer affects abilities/OGCD's so there's no reason to align your ogcd's with blood weapon anymore it also no longer hastens your GCD cooldown

Dark arts can no longer be managed for use with the right skills for maximum efficiency
(high potency attacks for additional crit/dh scaling)
(abyssal for lifesteal)
(power slash for emnity)

Quietus no longer grants MP its just a 210 potency aoe locked behind blood

Salted earth no longer generates blood

Abyssal drain went for a GCD with no cooldown to a OGCD with 60 seconds cooldown and horrible potency/lifesteal its even worse then pre-buff dark passenger from SB this also butchered our ranged aoe emnity control and ability to pull mobs

Resource generation has gotten atleast 4 times slower than in SB

The new DRK abilities from Shb offer little to nothing in terms of gameplay. And our ultimate skill Living shadow is just a 60 second ogcd 50 blood DOT that does nothing the first 6 seconds after activating it and when it does go active it starts thowing out quietes and aoe's on a single target boss.

This class got butchered harder in terms of gameplay and depth than HW WAR to SB WAR not to mention they already removed the entire tankstance and emnity concept of tanking

This rework combined with tanking changes makes it miserable for any experienced player/raider

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Originally Posted by Dio_Tiferet

This rework combined with tanking changes makes it miserable for any experienced player/raider

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No true Scotsman would ever like the Dark Knight rework :p

It's fine if you don't like the rework, everyone is entitled to their own opinion, but fallacious statements like the quoted one are ridiculous and being thrown around far too much.

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

HW DRK like playing a piano- loved it.
ShB DRK slow and boring
SB DRK fast and exciting.

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fixed for you

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Originally Posted by shao32

fixed for you

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SB is the stepchild of the FF14 expansions. Our new bright (dark) Shadowbringers leads the way.

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

Our new bright (dark) Shadowbringers leads the way.

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Yeah the warrior of darkness

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Originally Posted by LalafellDown

HW DRK like playing a piano- loved it.
SB DRK slow and boring- hate it
ShB DRK fast and exciting- love it.

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Highest i saw SB DRK go was like 48 apm, i usually hovered around 45
New DRK highest ive seen is like 38. Objectively slower, not to mention the fact that most of the apm from new DRK comes in burst windows, rather than the constant flow of old

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Originally Posted by ReiMakoto

Highest i saw SB DRK go was like 48 apm, i usually hovered around 45
New DRK highest ive seen is like 38. Objectively slower, not to mention the fact that most of the apm from new DRK comes in burst windows, rather than the constant flow of old

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The majority of that drop in APM is from the removal of Dark Arts spam, which was pretty much the most repeated gripe with DRK in Stormblood. If you remove the repeated pressing, or spamming, of a button, you tend to end up not pressing buttons as much. It's a pretty logical conclusion to draw and is to be expected.

Now if you want more APM, then ask specifically for that and provide solutions like shorter recasts on oGCD abilities instead of continuing to repeat nebulous complaints like "DRK is so slow now, I hate it".

APM is also fight specific. A fight with a relatively high amount of downtime is going to have lower APM across all jobs. You also see a rise in APM with gear, as you can eat mechanics that you're not really supposed to for extra uptime.

You're much better off looking at relative APM values between two jobs (such as NIN) in the same fight than you are comparing the same job on different fights. If NIN APM is 40, then you're probably not going to be playing at a higher APM.

It's pretty clear that DRK and GNB are the faster tanks in this expansion. The difference is that GNB follows a rigid rotation much like PLD and doesn't have any real resource management, while DRK is much more fluid and punishes you for not being at correct thresholds at correct times. LS appears to be particularly important to get out as soon as you can, as it looks like it accounts for around 10% of our dps.

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Originally Posted by Lyth

APM is also fight specific. A fight with a relatively high amount of downtime is going to have lower APM across all jobs. You also see a rise in APM with gear, as you can eat mechanics that you're not really supposed to for extra uptime.

You're much better off looking at relative APM values between two jobs (such as NIN) in the same fight than you are comparing the same job on different fights. If NIN APM is 40, then you're probably not going to be playing at a higher APM.

It's pretty clear that DRK and GNB are the faster tanks in this expansion. The difference is that GNB follows a rigid rotation much like PLD and doesn't have any real resource management, while DRK is much more fluid and punishes you for not being at correct thresholds at correct times. LS appears to be particularly important to get out as soon as you can, as it looks like it accounts for around 10% of our dps.

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I would assume having to hang on to 3k MP and make sure you don't fall below that so you're always able to use TBN isn't as fluid as it sounds, but maybe it is in practice.

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

I would assume having to hang on to 3k MP and make sure you don't fall below that so you're always able to use TBN isn't as fluid as it sounds, but maybe it is in practice.

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Everything is easy and slow if you do it on a dummy.
In a real riding conditions, DRK is going to be "alive" job. Take a look at warrior, you could do rotation with your own foot on a dummy, but it does play completely different in duties.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

Everything is easy and slow if you do it on a dummy.
In a real riding conditions, DRK is going to be "alive" job. Take a look at warrior, you could do rotation with your own foot on a dummy, but it does play completely different in duties.

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Which is one reason I've always been iffy about hearing how a job "flows". Not only is every fight going to mess up/change your flow but each person has their own feelings about how the flow should feel. Now I've only tried DRK on dummies and Overworld mobs but it doesn't seem to flow right to me. Maybe it works better in dungeons but I just can't bring myself to give it a try.

To quote an old Disney move, Square guys; "You threw off my GROOVE"

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

... I've only tried DRK on dummies and Overworld mobs ...

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Therein lies the problem. Measure the job by content that requires zero thought and it will unsurprisingly feel mindless. This is nothing new to this incarnation of DRK. HW and SB DRK were also boring on open-world mobs and dummies. You are comparing your memory of what DRK used to play like, which is formed of your entire experience of DRK in all the different content you played it in, against DRK participating in the least engaging and interactive content possible. It's like only doing FATEs with a job and then saying it feels boring, well of course it does you're grinding FATEs.

Real talk, it'd be nice for a DRK specific trait that merges skillspeed and spellspeed. I don't think it'd be particularly broken

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Originally Posted by RatCopter

Real talk, it'd be nice for a DRK specific trait that merges skillspeed and spellspeed. I don't think it'd be particularly broken

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In my opinion, the could very well merge the stats themselves.

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Originally Posted by Reynhart

In my opinion, the could very well merge the stats themselves.

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Sure a lot of people say it flows fine, but popping the SS combo feels really off due to the spellspeed. They could just call the stat speed or haste or something and merge the two.

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Originally Posted by TouchandFeel

There in lies the problem. Measure the job by content that requires zero thought and it will unsurprisingly feel mindless. This is nothing new to this incarnation of DRK. HW and SB DRK were also boring on open-world mobs and dummies. You are comparing your memory of what DRK used to play like, which is formed of your entire experience of DRK in all the different content you played it in, against DRK participating in the least engaging and interactive content possible. It's like only doing FATEs with a job and then saying it feels boring, well of course it does you're grinding FATEs.

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No I don't think so. See I've also tried it against older content. Mainly Alexander and Omega stuff along with some Trials. Read not new content.

Not to mention, unlike other classes, DRK doesn't look to change from 70-80. Our AoE game increases, but to me our AoE was fine anyway. Thanks for the bonus but I don't see how Stalwart Soul is going to change how it feels/flows. Maybe against more targets but most end game content is against a single target.

Put simply, It doesn't feel like it flows right against old content and easier Overworld mobs/fates. I don't see why the challenge and speed of Boss fights is going to make it flow better considering the amount of things that can throw off the flow/groove even more. Especially since we don't get anything that radically changes how it plays. Put a different way; DRG and SAM seem to still flow okay to me in dungeons, old content and overworld mobs. New DRK just doesn't click for me though. I think I see what I'm supposed to do and what's expected of me. I think I see how the abilities are supposed to flow.

Simply throwing that into faster/harder combat doesn't sound like it's going to change how it place.

Now, whether or not the class is BAD is up for debate. Heck it could be an actual improvement. But it just doesn't feel fun for me to play anymore.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by MerlinCross

No I don't think so. See I've also tried it against older content. Mainly Alexander and Omega stuff along with some Trials. Read not new content.

Not to mention, unlike other classes, DRK doesn't look to change from 70-80. Our AoE game increases, but to me our AoE was fine anyway. Thanks for the bonus but I don't see how Stalwart Soul is going to change how it feels/flows. Maybe against more targets but most end game content is against a single target.

Put simply, It doesn't feel like it flows right against old content and easier Overworld mobs/fates. I don't see why the challenge and speed of Boss fights is going to make it flow better considering the amount of things that can throw off the flow/groove even more. Put a different way; DRG and SAM seem to still flow okay to me in dungeons, old content and overworld mobs. New DRK just doesn't click for me though.

Now, whether or not the class is BAD is up for debate. Heck it could be an actual improvement. But it just doesn't feel fun for me to play anymore.

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stalwart soul increase our resources and make it less boring since you won't spam all day unleash and make quietus/flood up more often but to me feel that the skill is there to fill part of what they take and still don't be enough and the most important, DRK feels horrible in lower content without it.

i agree part of the enjoyment is fit the job gameplay on the fight but if the job is insufferably boring you will hate it , other jobs feels good no mather what what are you doing so idk why this should be a excuse for DRK.

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Originally Posted by shao32

stalwart soul increase our resources and make it less boring since you won't spam all day unleash and make quietus/flood up more often but to me feel that the skill is there to fill part of what they take and still don't be enough and the most important, DRK feels horrible in lower content without it.

i agree part of the enjoyment is fit the job gameplay on the fight but if the job is insufferably boring you will hate it , other jobs feels good no mather what what are you doing so idk why this should be a excuse for DRK.

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Again, that fixes/upgrades our AoE game but that was something I never thought was a problem in the first place for the class. Or at worst actually makes it more boring. I'm sorry, I just find the AoE Spam turns off part of my brain till things are dead. I mean a lot of classes got AoE extenders or fixes but I don't find those fun to use. Upgrades sure but they don't radically change how the class feels.

Also as for why it's an Excuse for DRK, it's not. Well it's not the only one on the cut/chopping block. I was wary about using AST cards but now I find the idea too boring to try it now. MNK continues to feel weird, and Paladin feels really REALLY bad at low level content to the point I'm considering popping a skip potion. Gunbreaker, while has a nice flow against overworld content and dummies, feels a bit off in dungeons, have yet to try with Trials. And even with the changes, I fear messing up on the Pet classes.

I could go on but there's a reason I have a small amount of classes at or above 70, and it's not just due to the amount of time it takes to grind them up. I haven't brought them up though because it's well a DRK topic.

Got DRK to 80 today got some pros and cons for it then i'll add to it once I finally get into EX primals (2 of my group members have been taking their time which is fine the story this xpac is amaaaaazing.

Pros:
-Great on demand mitigation (TBN)
-Streamlined play style
-Shadow is a strong DoT, cost is decent
-Edge and Flood are great DPS/resource spenders as well as being snappy
-Party wide magic mitigation is great
-Burst Phases are great with Delirium/Blood weapon

Cons:
-A lot of sitting on your thumbs once you've used your MP 600 a Siphon/Stalwart isn't great, 1000 MP should is what it should have been
-No other mitigation tools besides it's magic kit Dark Mind should be an on demand tool like RI or Heart of Stone 10-15% would be fine
-Living Dead still bad
-Abyssal Drain is only used in trash packs but still strong
-Shadow takes a few seconds to attack and is a glorified DoT, thus losing 3-4 seconds to attack
-Awkward waiting for DPS CDs, Shadow should be 90 secs to make it in line with Delirium

Other than that it's super fun the cons are only really minor (other than the MP thing) I feel the MP gains are just a tad bit low across the board but I am having fun with it! I'm still gonna main GNB but DRK will be a tank I play when I just wanna Darkness everything, I like it much better than the SB iteration of it.

You're always going to get some degree of backlash after a rework like this, because people have to relearn everything and not everyone is particularly adaptable.

I know that TBN/Quietus/AD for infinite resources back in SB may have seemed like it was particularly clever, but it wasn't. Mass pulls in expert dungeons are never going to feel scintillating, but this version is marginally more intelligent.

But let's face it, the part that everyone actually cares about is single target, and that's where DRK has improved the most. You have three buff windows that come together in five different combinations. Each plays out slightly differently. You don't need to sit on resources, but you do need to know when to reach a specific threshold and how long it's going to take you to get there.

This is particularly important for LS. Blood tends to be our "slower" resource, especially since you don't gain any under Delirium (unless BW is also active). I feel that this is the one that you have to pay the closest attention to, especially when it's due to come off cooldown shortly.

Either way, I was having hours of fun doing primals yesterday, despite the fact that the fights themselves are extremely simple. I can only imagine what it's going to be like in more interesting content.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lyth

I know that TBN/Quietus/AD for infinite resources back in SB may have seemed like it was particularly clever, but it wasn't. Mass pulls in expert dungeons are never going to feel scintillating, but this version is marginally more intelligent.

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It was. DRK had the best door-to-door pulls in the game, and it was fun to actually have some place to use Dark Passenger. Right now there's less self-sustain and despite potencies being increased, the actual combos hurt the mobs less, because their health was increased to compensate. I don't see how 5.0's DRK is supposed to be more intelligent in AoE situations.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Lyth

But let's face it, the part that everyone actually cares about is single target, and that's where DRK has improved the most.

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Numbers-wise, yes. It's better because the game is more focused around burst windows now. But unless you like that sort of thing, you have to notice that DRKs sit twiddling your thumbs for half the fight, because MP regen is too slow, and there's no more haste, so you're stuck at 2.4 recasts. I don't understand why people think that making DRK a slow, burst-window class instead of fast sustained DPS class was a good thing. You can play PLD or WAR for those things already.

If your point about AoE in Stormblood was that it was fun because you have infinite resources and could endlessly spam TBN, Quietus, and AD for unlimited self-sustain, then yeah, I can agree with that. But that's also intrinsically going to be simpler than a system in which you have a two step combo, finite resources, and a limited amount of sustain which you need to apply judiciously. It's not a big jump, by any means, but AoE pulls have never required much thought to begin with.

You really can't make the claim "Oh, I thought it was fun having infinite resources during AoE in Stormblood" and "I thought that Stormblood had more resource management" in the same breath. These two things are mutually exclusive.

If you're ever twiddling your thumbs on DRK, then you're doing something wrong. We're pulling the same APM values that GNB does, except we're not following a fixed rotation and actually have to make decisions based on resource usage. If DRK is "slow", then every other tank job is going to be molasses. Blood Weapon wasn't what made the job fast. It was, and still is, the number of decisions you make per minute that gives the job its speed.