Scholar notes from E3 build - Titania Fight

OMG, that hotbar looks naked. T.T

See I never had the space issue, now Its gonna feel awkward just having empty spaces. And on a crossbar those cant be hidden, double T.T

1: Terrible information gathering to use a toned down, MSQ trial to gauge the difficulty of content and the changes to the battle system. Believe it or not, anything required to progress the MSQ is DUMB easy. The one time they make something -remotely- difficult in the MSQ, the forums are flamed and it's changed (see: Royal Menagerie, The Burn). Don't forget that Cape Westwind is a thing, so there are huge discrepancies in the difficulty of content.

2: Let's not pretend that SCH isn't broken in Stormblood. They completely deserve nerfs.

3: Let's also not pretend that the SCH damage rotation is "complex" to begin with. Once you figure out when and where you need to heal (which you're still going to need to do as that comprises the true complexity of any healer class), you maintain your 2 DoTs and spam Broil II, and press the Energy Drain button to dump flow. Majority of your GCDs are Broil spam, so it's business as usual.

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Originally Posted by Eloah

OMG, that hotbar looks naked. T.T

See I never had the space issue, now Its gonna feel awkward just having empty spaces. And on a crossbar those cant be hidden, double T.T

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Looks like WHM's hotbars in 4.0 to me. But back then, I was told I'm "fine", and that there was no issue at all.

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Originally Posted by Amon-ster

1: Terrible information gathering to use a toned down, MSQ trial to gauge the difficulty of content and the changes to the battle system. Believe it or not, anything required to progress the MSQ is DUMB easy. The one time they make something -remotely- difficult in the MSQ, the forums are flamed and it's changed (see: Royal Menagerie, The Burn). Don't forget that Cape Westwind is a thing, so there are huge discrepancies in the difficulty of content.

2: Let's not pretend that SCH isn't broken in Stormblood. They completely deserve nerfs.

3: Let's also not pretend that the SCH damage rotation is "complex" to begin with. Once you figure out when and where you need to heal (which you're still going to need to do as that comprises the true complexity of any healer class), you maintain your 2 DoTs and spam Broil II, and press the Energy Drain button to dump flow. Majority of your GCDs are Broil spam, so it's business as usual.

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If you won't let that count, how about this quote from Yoshi-P on reddit:

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Originally Posted by Yoshi-P

The difficulty of the Eden raid will be close to that of the creator (Alexander floors 9~12). They expect players to not be used to the lv 80 jobs, so the required DPS will be lower than usual.

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"The required DPS will be lower than usual." Of the first raid tier.

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"The required DPS will be lower than usual." Of the first raid tier.

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I don't expect the game to get any drastically harder, I should mention that. The community wouldn't allow that, as the vast majority of FFXIV playerbase belongs to that category of folks who thought Royal Menag on release was too hard. That being said, I feel they are going the right way with healers. I think it's a process of baby steps that will eventually pan out to a broader and better experience.

A lot of people give FFXIV devs flack for not fixing any of their problems, but this is the same company that dropped the moon on their game and re-released it in possibly the biggest video game comeback of the century.

Also worth nothing that Creator was arguably the overall easiest raid tier this game has seen.

Kind of a shame as A10S and A11S were both stellar fights even with their timing and phase pushing quirks.

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Originally Posted by Amon-ster

1: Terrible information gathering to use a toned down, MSQ trial to gauge the difficulty of content and the changes to the battle system. Believe it or not, anything required to progress the MSQ is DUMB easy. The one time they make something -remotely- difficult in the MSQ, the forums are flamed and it's changed (see: Royal Menagerie, The Burn). Don't forget that Cape Westwind is a thing, so there are huge discrepancies in the difficulty of content.

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Were those two changed, though? Also, Cape Westwind, while not terribly hard, did used to have some challenge to it (Namely, the adds overpowering the party and the MASSIVE AoE he used to use), but these days we are so easily outgearing it that it's a laugh.

Also, wasn't one of the worries having a boring LEVELING CURVE? How does commenting on a level 73 Trial not talk about that?

No, No, No, No and more just NO!

The fight is a level 73 fight with level 73 skills and the SHB Scholar isnt even 80 yet so the opinions are null and void in regards to how scholar plays until we have the whole kit. It is just conjecture until we get our hands on it and then see how it feels. I get we know it will be cut down and boring based dps wise on what we know so far but lets see first. I dunno why people get so worked up yet on pre-empting things they have had no experience of. pffft

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Originally Posted by PaulH

No, No, No, No and more just NO!

The fight is a level 73 fight with level 73 skills and the SHB Scholar isnt even 80 yet so the opinions are null and void in regards to how scholar plays until we have the whole kit. It is just conjecture until we get our hands on it and then see how it feels. I get we know it will be cut down and boring based dps wise on what we know so far but lets see first. I dunno why people get so worked up yet on pre-empting things they have had no experience of. pffft

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"Wait til 80" Just to confirm that all of our worries were right when we reach that level like in Sb? If the job is boring and bad developed for 73 levels out of 80 that means that during 91% of your leveling experience AT LEAST you've been playing with a wrong designed job, something that shouldnt be considered not even remotely acceptable, lets not say that if we see the skills that would be aded in the next 7 levels any of them would solve the problems we've been saying since the tooltips were reavealed.

Saying "Wait til X" its just fooling yourself to not acknolwedge the problems that the jobs CLEARLY have.

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Were those two changed, though? Also, Cape Westwind, while not terribly hard, did used to have some challenge to it (Namely, the adds overpowering the party and the MASSIVE AoE he used to use), but these days we are so easily outgearing it that it's a laugh.

Also, wasn't one of the worries having a boring LEVELING CURVE? How does commenting on a level 73 Trial not talk about that?

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Royal Menag got The Echo. Burn hasn't changed (thank God). Unfortunately MMOs aren't designed with back tracking in mind, otherwise Paladin wouldn't be stuck with Rage of Halone combo from 1-60.

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Originally Posted by Amon-ster

Royal Menag got The Echo. Burn hasn't changed (thank God). Unfortunately MMOs aren't designed with back tracking in mind, otherwise Paladin wouldn't be stuck with Rage of Halone combo from 1-60.

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I think the problem with the Burn was just that it was having such bad delay issues that you couldn't see the AoE marker of the last boss when he does his charges, that's all. It was broken, so they only had to fix it, not change it. So, yeah, those examples don't even really count...

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

"Wait til 80" Just to confirm that all of our worries were right when we reach that level like in Sb? If the job is boring and bad developed for 73 levels out of 80 that means that during 91% of your leveling experience AT LEAST you've been playing with a wrong designed job, something that shouldnt be considered not even remotely acceptable, lets not say that if we see the skills that would be aded in the next 7 levels any of them would solve the problems we've been saying since the tooltips were reavealed.

Saying "Wait til X" its just fooling yourself to not acknolwedge the problems that the jobs CLEARLY have.

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I am not fooling myself or sticking my head in the sand. You maybe 100% right but nobody knows right now based on speculation and that is fact!

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

It's not even the "Heal through failed DPS check" that worries me. It's the "Why didn't you do more DPS?" calls that I am expecting.

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And the answer to that is simply: "Because SE has decided to gut our damage options". Not our game to design.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

"Wait til 80" Just to confirm that all of our worries were right when we reach that level like in Sb? If the job is boring and bad developed for 73 levels out of 80 that means that during 91% of your leveling experience AT LEAST you've been playing with a wrong designed job, something that shouldnt be considered not even remotely acceptable, lets not say that if we see the skills that would be aded in the next 7 levels any of them would solve the problems we've been saying since the tooltips were reavealed.

Saying "Wait til X" its just fooling yourself to not acknolwedge the problems that the jobs CLEARLY have.

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Paladin is awful leveling, only getting its actual physical rotation at 60, then it gets the magic rotation at late 60, almost 70. Still a very good and fun job to play. So yeah, you can't judge play factor until the end. Not the best design, but it's how it is.

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Originally Posted by Amon-ster

Paladin is awful leveling, only getting its actual physical rotation at 60, then it gets the magic rotation at late 60, almost 70. Still a very good and fun job to play. So yeah, you can't judge play factor until the end. Not the best design, but it's how it is.

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That might work with people who already have investment in the game (if only in the sense that it preys on sunk cost), but I've had a lot of friends try the game and give up in ARR because the slow drip of abilities into a blatantly unfinished class/job isn't worth the canned promise of "it gets better eventually!"

Now extend that awfulness up to the latest expansion, and try to convince a new player to stick with it without buying a skip potion.

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Originally Posted by Gaethan_Tessula

That might work with people who already have investment in the game (if only in the sense that it preys on sunk cost), but I've had a lot of friends try the game and give up in ARR because the slow drip of abilities into a blatantly unfinished class/job isn't worth the canned promise of "it gets better eventually!"

Now extend that awfulness up to the latest expansion, and try to convince a new player to stick with it without buying a skip potion.

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Sadly that's just how MMOs are designed. "The endgame is when the game actually starts" is the motto of just about every game of the genre. Classes are made with the end in mind, not the journey.

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Originally Posted by Amon-ster

Unfortunately MMOs aren't designed with back tracking in mind, otherwise Paladin wouldn't be stuck with Rage of Halone combo from 1-60.

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70-80 isn't backtracking...

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Originally Posted by Deceptus

And the answer to that is simply: "Because SE has decided to gut our damage options". Not our game to design.

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Ha ha, if only they would think of that.

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Originally Posted by Amon-ster

Paladin is awful leveling, only getting its actual physical rotation at 60, then it gets the magic rotation at late 60, almost 70. Still a very good and fun job to play. So yeah, you can't judge play factor until the end.

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Eh really you couldn't tell that before you levelled PLD to 70?
Wait am I the only one who reads the tooltips, figures out rotations and keybinds all 1-70 skills right after unlocking a new job? I mean, i already have keybind setup for lvl80 PLD...

Also, in this example job starts with few rotation options as "awful", and gets progressively better once more rotations are added, which is exactly the opposite for WHM 70-80 transition ><

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Originally Posted by PaulH

I am not fooling myself or sticking my head in the sand. You maybe 100% right but nobody knows right now based on speculation and that is fact!

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Please, read the tooltips and tell me if there is a single skill from 73 onwards that adress any of this problems:

a) Too powerful heals creating a lot of downtime, coupled with for example too powerful ogcd heals in case of sch
b) Simplistic dps rotation which basically consist of 1 filler, 1 dot, 1 aoe
c) (Sch only) lack of aetherflow dumpster that doesnt require healing.
d) (Ast only) lack of diversity with cards all of them are "The balance" now.
e) (Whm only) lillies are still underwheilming mechanic, new lilly is a dps loss (spam 4 glares deal more damage than 3 healing+the 900 potency attack)

Its not speculation, its reading the information and use logic based on previous experiences to elaborate an hypothesis which so far is being proven right

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Originally Posted by AikenDrum

Eh really you couldn't tell that before you levelled PLD to 70?

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Let me ask you if this "sounds fun"

1 2 0 3 89 1 2 4 1 2 4 1 2 3 1 2 4 1 2 4 1 2 3 7 5 5 5 5 5 5 1 2 3 1 2 4 1 2 4 1 2 0 3....

OMG, this is really a relief, because tanks melt so bad. Also, looks like we might get MP regen abilities back if MP management becomes a problem, and totorak is still totally boring. Or, they could increase hlr DPS or other dps potencies and raid dps potency increases

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Originally Posted by Ilenya

Ha ha, if only they would think of that.

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Your options being gutted doesn't mean your damage is gutted. Biolysis does 50 more potency than Miasma 2 and Bio 2 combined. Broil 3 obviously does more damage than Broil 2. Having to maintain 2 dots over one isn't any harder or more complex -- healer DPS kit isnt, and likely never will be, complex. The complexity of playing a healer at high level is mapping out your heals to allow you to Broil/Stone/Malefic spam more. That aspect of the game hasn't changed.

EDIT: The saddest part of the media tour info is that there isn't as much unavoidable/hard to heal damage as I would have hoped, but I dont think the playerbase is ready for unpredictable/near constant levels of healing. At least not immediately. It's something that will have to be slowly introduced.

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Originally Posted by Amon-ster

Your options being gutted doesn't mean your damage is gutted. Biolysis does 50 more potency than Miasma 2 and Bio 2 combined. Broil 3 obviously does more damage than Broil 2. Having to maintain 2 dots over one isn't any harder or more complex -- healer DPS kit isnt, and likely never will be, complex. The complexity of playing a healer at high level is mapping out your heals to allow you to Broil/Stone/Malefic spam more. That aspect of the game hasn't changed.

EDIT: The saddest part of the media tour info is that there isn't as much unavoidable/hard to heal damage as I would have hoped, but I dont think the playerbase is ready for unpredictable/near constant levels of healing. At least not immediately. It's something that will have to be slowly introduced.

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I miss the early days of ARR when we had Bio, Miasma, and Aero for a grand total of three dots, Shadowflare as a casted spell (and the only thing other than resurrection worth using swiftcast on), Ruin and Ruin II for direct damage options, and Energy Drain to round out the fun. Also a Selene with 30 second spell speed increase that alternated with 30 second skill speed increase. Granted Ruin was poop potency back then given how many DoTs we had, but that was part of the balance.

How is it that every expansion managed to take options away and yet they still felt they had to resort to this degree? It's almost like they're saying the SCH class was a mistake.

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Originally Posted by LegoTechnic

I miss the early days of ARR when we had Bio, Miasma, and Aero for a grand total of three dots, Shadowflare as a casted spell (and the only thing other than resurrection worth using swiftcast on), Ruin and Ruin II for direct damage options, and Energy Drain to round out the fun. Also a Selene with 30 second spell speed increase that alternated with 30 second skill speed increase. Granted Ruin was poop potency back then given how many DoTs we had, but that was part of the balance.

How is it that every expansion managed to take options away and yet they still felt they had to resort to this degree? It's almost like they're saying the SCH class was a mistake.

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Well Some of it was to tone down scholar dps early on especially after the initial buffs. The original thought was whm Main healer scholar off heals. But that didn’t really work well when two scholars were paired together. So it started changing. Scholar has been my favorite since those early days of ARR I miss that time too.

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Originally Posted by Kabooa

Let me ask you if this "sounds fun"

1 2 0 3 89 1 2 4 1 2 4 1 2 3 1 2 4 1 2 4 1 2 3 7 5 5 5 5 5 5 1 2 3 1 2 4 1 2 4 1 2 0 3....

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Sounds more fun than [1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2...], absolutely

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Originally Posted by AikenDrum

Sounds more fun than [1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 1 2...], absolutely

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I'll have to be honest. My response to her would have been "Where can I find the 89 key on my keyboard?"

*cough*. I'll see myself out.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

Please, read the tooltips and tell me if there is a single skill from 73 onwards that adress any of this problems:

a) Too powerful heals creating a lot of downtime, coupled with for example too powerful ogcd heals in case of sch
b) Simplistic aoe rotation which basically consist of 1 filler, 1 dot, 1 aoe
c) (Sch only) lack of aetherflow dumpster that doesnt require healing.
d) (Ast only) lack of diversity with cards all of them are "The balance" now.
e) (Whm only) lillies are still underwheilming mechanic, new lilly is a dps loss (spam 4 glares deal more damage than 3 healing+the 900 potency attack)

Its not speculation, its reading the information and use logic based on previous experiences to elaborate an hypothesis which so far is being proven right

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Yes thanks for quoting the obvious...You haven't played it and just reading tool read tips to speculate how it might play against the rest of the game is still speculation. Anyway good luck :-X

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Originally Posted by PaulH

Yes thanks for quoting the obvious...You haven't played it and just reading tool read tips to speculate how it might play against the rest of the game is still speculation. Anyway good luck :-X

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So what will you do if and when said speculation is accurate? Will you shift the goalposts like so many others, will we hear you say "Well you haven't gotten Savage with it yet!" or will you cede that maybe, maybe, people are capable of using given data to make predictions of things they haven't experienced yet?

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

So what will you do if and when said speculation is accurate? Will you shift the goalposts like so many others, will we hear you say "Well you haven't gotten Savage with it yet!" or will you cede that maybe, maybe, people are capable of using given data to make predictions of things they haven't experienced yet?

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Nope i think by 80, if dungeons are crap then it is crap and speculation is realised and people can say hate to say i told you so. I think purely not having played the game with full healers kit at 80 is uncharted and just a bunch of tool tips without all the data and experience of how people played in the environment is currently absent.

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Originally Posted by PaulH

Yes thanks for quoting the obvious...You haven't played it and just reading tool read tips to speculate how it might play against the rest of the game is still speculation. Anyway good luck :-X

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Do I really need to play to

a) see that the dps rotation are 2 buttons for single target and 1 for aoe?
b) see the lack of diversity in ast cards?
c) see how the new lilly is a dps loss? (I mean 300 potency glare x4=1200 potency, 3 cures+new lilly attack=900 potency, 1200>900, basic maths)
d) see how there isnt a single aetherflow dumpster in all Sch's kit that doesnt require healing? (Just read the tooltips and tell me if there is an aetherflow skill that does not heal)

The answer is no, you dont need to wait to see those problems because if youre half decent at your job they're OBVIOUS and if you cant see them without playing you simply are not good at your job.

Again the attitude of "Wait til X" is just a try to fool oneself, an attitude that does not fit a forum where we are supposed to give feedback

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Originally Posted by PaulH

Yes thanks for quoting the obvious...You haven't played it and just reading tool read tips to speculate how it might play against the rest of the game is still speculation. Anyway good luck :-X

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I don't see you going to all the tank forum posts or the DPS forums and posting there about their feedback on the tooltips, videos, etc that have been released. So, you'd better get busy. I'm sure they'd love to hear your advice, too.

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

Do I really need to play to

a) see that the dps rotation are 2 buttons for single target and 1 for aoe?
b) see the lack of diversity in ast cards?
c) see how the new lilly is a dps loss? (I mean 300 potency glare x4=1200 potency, 3 cures+new lilly attack=900 potency, 1200>900, basic maths)
d) see how there isnt a single aetherflow dumpster in all Sch's kit that doesnt require healing? (Just read the tooltips and tell me if there is an aetherflow skill that does not heal)

The answer is no, you dont need to wait to see those problems because if youre half decent at your job they're OBVIOUS and if you cant see them without playing you simply are not good at your job.

Again the attitude of "Wait til X" is just a try to fool oneself, an attitude that does not fit a forum where we are supposed to give feedback

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Still speculation and you dont possess the full facts. Anyway like I said i suspect you're probably right but I dont agree currently until i see tangibility. Please dont tell me how I need to post and this thread isn't purely feedback

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Originally Posted by PaulH

Still speculation and you dont possess the full facts. Anyway like I said i suspect you're probably right but I dont agree currently until i see tangibility. Please dont tell me how I need to post and this thread isn't purely feedback

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Speculation:"the activity of guessing possible answers to a question without having enough information to be certain" Sorry but the tooltips are all the information that one does need to answer all of those questions, so no, its not speculation, they're problems that need to be called out.

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

I don't see you going to all the tank forum posts or the DPS forums and posting there about their feedback on the tooltips, videos, etc that have been released. So, you'd better get busy. I'm sure they'd love to hear your advice, too.

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Well just rudeness again because I dont agree with your opinion, wow, that says a lot. I have merely stated I want to see a basic dungeon, raid, primal at 80 with a group and all out kits and see how our healer kits work with tangible data as enix will have to do something as we all switch as I am not using a boring job to play. But i want to try.

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Originally Posted by PaulH

Well just rudeness again because I dont agree with your opinion, wow, that says a lot. I have merely stated I want to see a basic dungeon, raid, primal at 80 with a group and all out kits and see how our healer kits work with tangible data as enix will have to do as we all switch as I am not using a boring job. But i want to try.

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Rudeness? To point out that you are saying WE can't use the tooltips to draw conclusions about our jobs, but that the tanks and DPS can? Why do you feel the need to criticize us and not them?

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Originally Posted by WaxSw

Speculation:"the activity of guessing possible answers to a question without having enough information to be certain" Sorry but the tooltips are all the information that one does need to answer all of those questions, so no, its not speculation, they're problems that need to be called out.

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indeed and accurate but aren't we just hoping the NPC's just thwack alot more and that is what i want to see with all out kit?

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Originally Posted by Reiryuu

Rudeness? To point out that you are saying WE can't use the tooltips to draw conclusions about our jobs, but that the tanks and DPS can? Why do you feel the need to criticize us and not them?

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You are just rude because you wont allow people a voice and are mean with it.

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Originally Posted by PaulH

You are just rude because you wont allow people a voice and are mean with it.

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She's not denying you a voice, she's challenging your claims.

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Originally Posted by SaberMaxwell

She's not denying you a voice, she's challenging your claims.

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agreed there but the point about DPS, Tank forums not necessary.

We are entitled to opinions and challenges andcan be kinder to each other and be respectful. Anyway my opinion remains we dont have full data at 80 and that is all.

We'll agree to disagree about that being denying you a voice; I see that more as questioning a double standard that seems to be prevalent here, in that dps and tanks are (much like healers) speculating what their rotations will be based on given tooltips. Entire rotations for several jobs have already been mathed out, and yes there is already some suggested changes; Nemekh, for example, already pointed out some serious problems if SMN were to be released in its pre-Alpha state; Red Mages know what they will and will not be getting in the final build of the game as well, and this has caused some to mourn the loss of abilities they wished they could have kept. These examples are both of people looking at tooltips we have available to us, and giving feedback based on knowledge of what the changes themselves mean even if we haven't been able to play the jobs at 80 yet.

We have practically full data at 80. Potencies are subject to change, but they're not going to overhaul abilities between an alpha build and final release. They won't suddenly add back in SCH's dots (as an example), and if they do I'll be colored very surprised and myself cede on that point. People have a very good guess at what the game will look like at 80 based on the tooltips we've been given; this is through combination of tooltips and experience at the game as it currently exists.

Tooltips aren't suggestions of what the ability could be. They're point-blank descriptions of what abilities are.

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Originally Posted by PaulH

You are just rude because you wont allow people a voice and are mean with it.

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Mr. Pot, I would sadly have to inform you that you are black, too. I'm not telling you to stop talking until level 80. I'm telling you to spread your message to the tanks and DPS forums because otherwise you are subjecting us to a double standard. A substandard. That our opinions from the same sources of information do not matter. A feeling that many of us feel that the dev team is supressing us with as it is. So please, go. Tell the Tank forums to stop speculating until 80. Tell the DPS to stop discussing their changes until they are 80. By all means spread your message to everyone who will listen. But if you're not going to tell them to wait in silence, do not do so to us.