Rngs unfair advantage granted 2 dps

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

Even if a dps doesnt get the item they need for the exact job the chances they will get it is still 5 out of 7. That is math maybe you should retake math class?

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Loot they can't use if they don't have the job leveled and which they have an equal chance of getting along with the healer and tank. By your own logic healer and tank count. Or did you forget healer and tanks can greed on loot?

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Originally Posted by Nihility

Your not using an accurate representation
and at this point I will no longer respond because you literally said the chances for 5 out of 7 is 9 out of 10 in the same post so it's clearly troll

You are constantly using this concept of DPS set as though they are all the same thing
There is no "DPS set" and you keep lumping them together like they are all the same

A bard can't use any set except the Aiming set, they only have 1:7 odds to get it. Not a 5:7 red marble or candy like you claim
A Monk can't use anything except striking, they only have 1:7 odds to get it
A WAR can't use anything but fending, they have 1:7 odds to get it

It's not a bag with 5 red marbles, 1 green, and 1 blue
It's seven different colors

It's not a situation of getting "candy you might not like" It's a 1:7 chance of getting something that you can even eat at all no matter what job you are

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It is a 5 out of 7 because there is 5 dps sets total vs 1 healer and 1 tank
Lol

It only makes a difference in bigger parties with more than one tank/healer. For example, if the dps jobs are DRG/BRD/NIN/SMN they all have a 1/7 chance to get their armor but the healers and tanks have 1/14 because they also have to win the roll.

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Originally Posted by Enla

Loot they can't use if they don't have the job leveled and which they have an equal chance of getting along with the healer and tank. By your own logic healer and tank count. Or did you forget healer and tanks can greed on loot?

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This isnt about rolls its about chance of item appearing from chest

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

It is a 5 out of 7 because there is 5 dps sets total vs 1 healer and 1 tank
Lol

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K, last post.

You're ignorant to /literally everyone telling you you're wrong/ because you fail to understand math. All DPS are not the same.

ALL DPS ARE NOT THE SAME.

Every role has a 1 out of 7 chance of getting anything they /NEED/. Greed *rolls shouldn't factor in because, surprise, EVERYONE gets a shot at greed rolls.

Just give up. you're not gonna convince anyone here that 5/7 == 9/10, nor that a SAM can roll /NEED/ on a caster armor piece, nor that you understand math.

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

Because that isnt a issue the issue is thete are 5 red marbels vs 1 blue vs 1 green 9 times out of 10 you will draw a red one aka dps

The reds out number blue and green isn't equal odds so its not a rng issue its the pure facts of math

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Just because a dungeon has a higher chance of dropping a DPS item in general doesn't mean that item is at all useful to the DPS in the party. If you have a 24-man raid group that consists of a monk, dragoon, summoner, and two red mages as your DPS, that means any scouting, striking, or aiming gear is useless to everyone in the party at that particular moment (not to say that people in the party might not want it still for other jobs, but it does mean the more likely than not, that gear is going to fall on the floor)

Your analysis would be accurate if and only if all DPS gear was interchangeable, but it's not. I can say that I have spent dozens of runs attempting to get just one item to even drop that my main can wear in the 24-main raids, and half the time when it does, I'm not the only DPS in the team that can roll "need" on the item, and about half the time, I lose my roll. Sure other DPS gear might drop, but that gear is just as useless to me as it is to the tank/healer attempting to get gear for their job.

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

This isnt about rolls its about chance of item appearing from chest

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Which is still pretty nonsensical because that gear can't always be equipped due to roles within the DPS line up. Every role gets an equal chance to get gear they can /equip/. From the sounds of things you're just upset healer gear isn't the priority when both tank and healer combined only make up 6 classes to DPS' 9. Which is in and of itself an unfair proposition. Everyone here has had to deal with not getting the loot they want. Deal with it like the rest of us.

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Originally Posted by wereotter

Just because a dungeon has a higher chance of dropping a DPS item in general doesn't mean that item is at all useful to the DPS in the party. If you have a 24-man raid group that consists of a monk, dragoon, summoner, and two red mages as your DPS, that means any scouting, striking, or aiming gear is useless to everyone in the party at that particular moment (not to say that people in the party might not want it still for other jobs, but it does mean the more likely than not, that gear is going to fall on the floor)

Your analysis would be accurate if and only if all DPS gear was interchangeable, but it's not. I can say that I have spent dozens of runs attempting to get just one item to even drop that my main can wear in the 24-main raids, and half the time when it does, I'm not the only DPS in the team that can roll "need" on the item, and about half the time, I lose my roll. Sure other DPS gear might drop, but that gear is just as useless to me as it is to the tank/healer attempting to get gear for their job.

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Again roll isn't the issue.


The issue is in 1 chest there are 5 chances for dps vs 1 healer and tank item

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Originally Posted by Reinha

It only makes a difference in bigger parties with more than one tank/healer. For example, if the dps jobs are DRG/BRD/NIN/SMN they all have a 1/7 chance to get their armor but the healers and tanks have 1/14 because they also have to win the roll.

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Thats a very situational argument though and can only really be applied with 8man content.
With 24 man raids you only have 1 tank,5 dps and 2 healers.In this situation atleast 2 dps are guarnteed to have to roll against each other.You'll still have 2 healers rolling vs each other.In this situation drops actually favor the tank.

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

Even if a dps doesnt get the item they need for the exact job the chances they will get it is still 5 out of 7. That is math maybe you should retake math class?

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You are assuming a DRG can NEED for a SMN for example because they both are DPS. This is not true. You can only greed even though both are DPS.

I sware ppl need 2 learn basic math

Okay, I know this is bait but I have to say this.
If 20 people say you're wrong and you are the only person saying you're right in regards to basic mathematics that have been proven and not something that can be equated to the 'the earth is flat' vs 'the earth is round' argument.
Statistically; who is more likely to be right? The 20 or the lone 1.

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Originally Posted by Gwenorai

Okay, I know this is bait but I have to say this.
If 20 people say you're wrong and you are the only person saying you're right in regards to basic mathematics that have been proven and not something that can be equated to the 'the earth is flat' vs 'the earth is round' argument.
Statistically; who is more likely to be right? The 20 or the lone 1.

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They say its wrong to kiss up to the devs that made the unfair system.

The math isnt wrong lol

https://media1.tenor.com/images/c6c2...itemid=4972487

The only way current system would be fair is if tanks got 1 set for 2hand users and 1 for 1hand user.

And then healer get 1 for regen user and 1 for barrier user.

That would even the odds fairly

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Originally Posted by Metalwrath

Thats a very situational argument though and can only really be applied with 8man content.
With 24 man raids you only have 1 tank,5 dps and 2 healers.In this situation atleast 2 dps are guarnteed to have to roll against each other.You'll still have 2 healers rolling vs each other.In this situation drops actually favor the tank.

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True. On the other hand tanks tend to have the longest queue for 24 mans so that kind of evens things out.

I do think the fairest loot system would be to have token drops for every gear slot instead of gear drops. Everyone could equally roll for Generic Belt Token. This system already exists as "Antique Mail/Helm/etc" tokens which drop in Snowcloak and a couple of other dungeons. I'm not sure why it wasn't continued.

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Originally Posted by Reinha

True. On the other hand tanks tend to have the longest queue for 24 mans so that kind of evens things out.

I do think the fairest loot system would be to have token drops for every gear slot instead of gear drops. Everyone could equally roll for Generic Belt Token. This system already exists as "Antique Mail/Helm/etc" tokens which drop in Snowcloak and a couple of other dungeons. I'm not sure why it wasn't continued.

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Token drops are a horrible system.They should have never been brought in on any content.They'd be better having thegear drop as normal but throw in a bunch of random aetheric gear as drops from bosses and chests on top of the loot.

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

They say its wrong to kiss up to the devs that made the unfair system.

The math isnt wrong lol

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You're looking at it the wrong way entirely. Just because a DPS piece dropped doesn't mean that it is what someone can Need on. You will always have a 1/7 chance of rolling the one category you can Need on, regardless of role - though there may be more likely to be a DPS item in the pool, that's because there are five DPS categories. A drop for one means squat to the others - a caster can't Need a NIN piece, a MNK/SAM can't Need a DRG piece. Rolling the wrong type of DPS is the same effect for a DPS as rolling a non-tank item is for a tank or rolling a non-healer item is for a healer. If anything, DPS have worse odds on an individual basis - they only get that 1/7 chance if they are a unique category. Place one other person in their category, and your chance goes from 1.7 (14.2%) to 1/14 (7.1%). End up in a 24-man where you have three BRDs and two MCHs? Hope you enjoy your lovely 1/35 (2.8%!) chance of getting your drop to not only be in the pool, but winning it as well. There's no imbalance here - everyone has the same base 14.2% chance of their drop popping in the pool. It's a 71.4% chance that it will be a DPS item, but that doesn't guarantee it's one that one of the party members can use. Your caster still has a 1/7 chance. Your ranged still has a 1/7 chance. Etc.

There is no such thing as tank, healer, and dps gear. There is: Fending, Healing, Aiming, Striking, Maiming, Scouting, Casting. Tanks, healers, and casters actually have the advantage because more jobs fall under their gearsets and chances are your main class is one of them.

But now you've completely lost me again on separating the tanks and healers out like the DPS are. The amount of total gear that drops from everything ever is going to be need-able by more with a red colored role icon, yes, but this is meaningless to tanks and healers because they don't share sets with eachother and still have 1/7th like everyone else.

It's actually pretty relieving that tanks and healers can share gear with eachother unlike DPS jobs. It allows them to have somewhat more freedom in choosing their main class if they're set on that role as a whole. Most raid healers I know have a favorite but like to play all 3, for example. What you're suggesting is taking that advantage away and creating 9 gear sets, so if you were say a White Mage (regen healer) you'd have 1/9 of needing on something you can actually use. That's even less than 1/7th.

I'm not saying the system is fair, but it most definitely doesn't advantage DPS if anything.

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Originally Posted by Zeich

You're looking at it the wrong way entirely. Just because a DPS piece dropped doesn't mean that it is what someone can Need on. You will always have a 1/7 chance of rolling the one category you can Need on, regardless of role - though there may be more likely to be a DPS item in the pool, that's because there are five DPS categories. A drop for one means squat to the others - a caster can't Need a NIN piece, a MNK/SAM can't Need a DRG piece. Rolling the wrong type of DPS is the same effect for a DPS as rolling a non-tank item is for a tank or rolling a non-healer item is for a healer. If anything, DPS have worse odds on an individual basis - they only get that 1/7 chance if they are a unique category. Place one other person in their category, and your chance goes from 1.7 (14.2%) to 1/14 (7.1%). End up in a 24-man where you have three BRDs and two MCHs? Hope you enjoy your lovely 1/35 (2.8%!) chance of getting your drop to not only be in the pool, but winning it as well. There's no imbalance here - everyone has the same base 14.2% chance of their drop popping in the pool. It's a 71.4% chance that it will be a DPS item, but that doesn't guarantee it's one that one of the party members can use. Your caster still has a 1/7 chance. Your ranged still has a 1/7 chance. Etc.

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Since i need to make it fully clear cuz ppl cant get it
5 differntcdps sets can drop oy so many chest ... so in the ovetall math the total dungeon has more chance granting dps stuff than healer or tank.

Since 5 sets easily out numbers 1 healer and tank set.


In all honestly on end boss it should grant you a piece for your role no matter what so your not completely screwed non stop

The main changes I'd want to see loot wise in 5.x are the removal of the random token system for normal raids (Just let us get a generic token guaranteed so we don't have to spam normal raids until we get something) and a reduction in the number of books needed to purchase savage gear.

Plus i rlly didnt want to say this however

Healers and tanks should get gear more often than dps anyways due the fact we pretty much do all the hard work while dps is like meha.
Atleast tanks can get a mount out of it but healers get jack

https://i.kym-cdn.com/photos/images/...48/129/538.jpg

But tanks and healers already get more gears than dps. When something drop it can be :

- a tank one;
- a healer one;
- a dps one.

We can conclude that tanks and healers have a 2/3 (66%) chance of getting something for them, while dps have only 1/3 (33%). If you dont agree with me, that's because you dont know how to do basic maths.

Or that i twisted things by lumping tanks and heals drops together, like you do for all the different dps ones XD

So at its most basic level, you're right.

If we take:

1 blue marble for tank gear
1 green marble for healer gear
5 red marbles for dps gear

There is indeed a bigger chance for a red marble to drop than a blue or green one.

However, a crucial detail here is that not all red marbles are the same color red. There isn't one universal "dps gear". There are 5 different kinds that are each only suitable for 1 or 2 jobs and as useless to the other dps jobs as they are to tanks and healers.

So adding that to our calculation we have:

1 blue marble for fending gear
1 green marble for healing gear
1 blood red marble for maiming gear
1 rolanberry red marble for casting gear
1 wine red marble for aiming gear
1 rust red marble for scouting gear
1 dalamud red marble for striking gear

Now, because we have 7 different colors, there is a 1/7 chance for every color to drop. Sure, 5 of those 7 might be a variety of red, but they're still not the same color. The chance for, say, wine red to drop is still 1/7, and for someone who needs wine red, rolanberry red is still a completely useless drop even though it's also red.

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Originally Posted by SpiritMuse

So at its most basic level, you're right.

If we take:

1 blue marble for tank gear
1 green marble for healer gear
5 red marbles for dps gear

There is indeed a bigger chance for a red marble to drop than a blue or green one.

However, a crucial detail here is that not all red marbles are the same color red. There isn't one universal "dps gear". There are 5 different kinds that are each only suitable for 1 or 2 jobs and as useless to the other dps jobs as they are to tanks and healers.

So adding that to our calculation we have:

1 blue marble for fending gear
1 green marble for healing gear
1 blood red marble for maiming gear
1 rolanberry red marble for casting gear
1 wine red marble for aiming gear
1 rust red marble for scouting gear
1 dalamud red marble for striking gear

Now, because we have 7 different colors, there is a 1/7 chance for every color to drop. Sure, 5 of those 7 might be a variety of red, but they're still not the same color. The chance for, say, wine red to drop is still 1/7, and for someone who needs wine red, rolanberry red is still a completely useless drop even though it's also red.

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I'm pretty sure OP has reached their daily posting limit, so let me refute this argument in their place;

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Originally Posted by What MorbolvampireQueen6 would have said

But maths tho!

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Uhm, wat. Everyone does the same in Dungeons.. killing trash and killing "more HP Trash" lmfao.
Spamming decimate/gravitas/holy/AD isnt really harder than spamming aoe moves on a DPS, correct me if im wrong though.

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

Plus i rlly didnt want to say this however

Healers and tanks should get gear more often than dps anyways due the fact we pretty much do all the hard work while dps is like meha.
Atleast tanks can get a mount out of it but healers get jack

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Wow, someone who can barely speak english attempting to lecture people on 'maths'.

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Originally Posted by SpiritMuse

So at its most basic level, you're right.

If we take:

1 blue marble for tank gear
1 green marble for healer gear
5 red marbles for dps gear

There is indeed a bigger chance for a red marble to drop than a blue or green one.

However, a crucial detail here is that not all red marbles are the same color red. There isn't one universal "dps gear". There are 5 different kinds that are each only suitable for 1 or 2 jobs and as useless to the other dps jobs as they are to tanks and healers.

So adding that to our calculation we have:

1 blue marble for fending gear
1 green marble for healing gear
1 blood red marble for maiming gear
1 rolanberry red marble for casting gear
1 wine red marble for aiming gear
1 rust red marble for scouting gear
1 dalamud red marble for striking gear

Now, because we have 7 different colors, there is a 1/7 chance for every color to drop. Sure, 5 of those 7 might be a variety of red, but they're still not the same color. The chance for, say, wine red to drop is still 1/7, and for someone who needs wine red, rolanberry red is still a completely useless drop even though it's also red.

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This is basically it. No matter what role you're playing, you're still only playing one job and can still only make use of one gearset.
And while there might be five varieties of DPS gear, every single gearset has the same 1/7 chance of dropping.

If anything, Tanks and Healers get the slightly better deal, because every party is guaranteed to have a tank and a healer to make use of those items. If Fending or Healing gear drops then at least someone can make use of it, meanwhile if a Maiming gear drops, your Bard and Black Mage are as out of luck as the tank and healer, so no one benefits from it.

There will always be more "dps" drops because there's more dps classes in the game than tanks or healers. Unless you want to delete dps jobs, there is no way to get what you want fairly.

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Originally Posted by Nedkel

But you are way wealthier as a tank and healer due to the bonuses you get from roulettes.
I am greeding everything, exchanging it for seals and selling the company materials for extra gil to spend on eq i want.

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Um... Those bonus is almost always only for tanks. As a healer main, I almost never see that juicy "Adventurer in need (Healer)". Its always tanks and more often DPS.

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

Even in game its true
Lets say you have box with 5 different candys and 1 pop tart and 1 jerky
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You have a 5/7 chance to get candy you might not like the 1 you get much but regardless you got candy.

Now lets say a man wants a pop tart more that man has a
1 and 7 chance

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You fail to realise that the candy you got as a dps could not fit on your job you are currently playing.
If you play samurai and you drop a piece for dps, what guarantee you have that you will be able to use it on your samurai? 1/5
You have 1/5 chances out of 5/7 that you will get what you are looking for, therefore 1/7 if you do the math.

You have same chances to get a piece gear for your samurai just like you do on your PLD or DRK.
EQ drop from dungeons cannot be distributed 50% for DPS, 25% for healer and 25% for tank because :
If you for example drop 100 pieces of gear from X number of dungeons that will mean that:
You will get 10 pieces of gear you could use on your Samurai, and the other 40 pieces will be useless for you
While a tank and a healer will get 25 pieces they could use, they are 15 pieces ahead of your samurai in drop.
In that case, a player playing certain type of job will be in great disadvantage over tanks and healers in dungeon for the eq drop.
Now imagine you are playing with another samurai or monk in your group, you have to share those 10 pieces between each other so you get 5 pieces you could use out of 100.

Right now all jobs has 1/7 chance to get their piece of gear if it drops, dps still has lesser chances because there could be a DPS in your group that uses the same set of EQ.
And realistically speaking, if you look at queue times, tanks and healer could farm their pieces of EQ faster than dps anyway.

There are 7 sets:

• Fending - DRK/WAR/PLD (AKA Tank)
• Maiming - DRG
• Striking - MNK/SAM
• Scouting - NIN
• Aiming - BRD/MCH (AKA Ranged DPS)
• Casting - BLM/SMN/RDM and BLU if up to iLvl 130 (AKA Caster DPS)
• Healing - WHM/SCH/AST (AKA Healer)

And there are a 1/7 chance of droping something that fits into your job, besides the drop rate of that encounter or chest. And I count them as different things because an BLM (that IS a DPS) can't even equip a Maiming gear, that is used also by a DPS job, but not by Caster DPS. The same happens when a NIN can't equip Aiming gear, that's exclusive to BRD and MCH.

So, the chances of dropping an useful gear appears to me more or less balanced.

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

Okay ill make it simple.

Loot per chest the odds of that loot being a healer or tank item is near 0 while the loot chance for dps is about 65.9 percent per treasure chest.


Ive ran swallows 257 times now

72 monk gear
23 archer,mch gear
52 Lancer
3 tank items
38 rogue items
32 blm gear
And the rest from non boss chest are healer necklances no diff items or mage rings 4 dps.


Now do this get a box and paper rip the paper 4 pieces per item a char can wear for dps. Then do the same for heal and tank but only 1 paper per piece. Do that four times since four bosses shake it and draw.

This is not how random works because 3/4 times you will draw the dps. Thats unfair advantage.

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What you're doing is called Monte Carlo Simulation. Which is one of the crudest yet simplest form of determining probabilities. One of it's biggest disadvantages that it requires an extensive amount of runs. You only did 257, which by far a very small number of runs to determine if the probabilities have converged. It usually takes more than tens of thousands of runs to reach a conclusion about its convergence.

Here's an example article if you're interested
https://phaethonprime.wordpress.com/...lo-simulation/
https://phaethonprime.files.wordpres...eof10rolls.png

Sorry to tell you this OP but Rng is forreal!
Been running O9s ~ O12s for 14weeks straight now my personal expirience with loot drops are and 60% of the drop gears are mostly tanks/healing
20% are mostly mnks,nin,drg,sam
20% are mostly mch,brd,smn,blm,rdm

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Originally Posted by MorbolvampireQueen6

Again roll isn't the issue.


The issue is in 1 chest there are 5 chances for dps vs 1 healer and tank item

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. <---- here's the point




-----> here's you

It doesn't matter if the item in the chest is equippable by a DPS job in general if the DPS in your party can't use it. At that point it's just as much a dead roll item to them as it is to you. Every job needs the same odds of getting gear. If we went by your proposed solution then we'd see this type of distrubition in gear drops:

Fending: 33%
Healing: 33%
Casting: 7%
Aiming: 7%
Striking: 7%
Maiming: 6%
Scouting: 6%

Tell me how it would be fair at that point for a ninja to have to do 6x the number of runs to even see a drop as a tank or a healer? It's not about the three roles a person can fill in party content, it's about how easily every JOB can get gear appropriate to it. You can't lump all DPS together and just say "this is DPS gear, therefore it's for all DPS"

It's random though - only way to get "stats" is to run exactly the same randomly selected dungeon with exactly the same randomly selected players in exactly the same jobs.

You can create "stats" until the cows come home - they still will mean nothing as it is random.