Suggestion: healer-based incentives/rewards

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Originally Posted by Emstidor

By this same "bare-minimum" logic, tanks STILL have the easier job (stand in one spot, run your aggro combo a few times, depend on the healer to keep you alive through tankbusters")

Not that either role should be aiming to do the bare minimum, of course.

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Sure, whatever works to keep the narrative going.

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Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

Correct, no one literally said that. It was implied above.

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No, people said that healers need to do more than just heal and boss mechanics. Not that only healers have to do more than basic requirements. Not the same thing.

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Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

That is from you, by the way.
If you stated that, other roles also have to make up for shortcomings of other people, this conversation would have never happened.

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How does me reminding a tank that healers must do more than heal and boss tactics means I said only healers must do more than basic requirements? I did not even vaguely imply other roles don't have other jobs outside of their basic requirements. I was correcting his misconception about healers. Not every class in the game.

It appears that when someone says "healers must do X" you automatically read it as "only healers do X".

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Originally Posted by Penthea

No, people said that healers need to do more than just heal and boss mechanics. Not that only healers have to do more than basic requirements. Not the same thing.



How does me reminding a tank that healers must do more than heal and boss tactics means I said only healers must do more than basic requirements? I did not even vaguely imply other roles don't have other jobs outside of their basic requirements. I was correcting his misconception about healers. Not every class in the game.

It appears that when someone says "healers must do X" you automatically read it as "only healers do X".

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You did the same thing you're accusing someone else of doing.

What was said was "Most healers usually just really need to heal and folllow mechanics as necessary just to get most of the basic content done.". You're acting as if they said "All healers just need to only heal and do mechanics to get anything done.".

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Please don't try to over simplify healing to justify tanks having more achievement rewards. As a healer I am very often carrying other players whether they're undergeared, can't dodge anything, or it's a 24 man and yet again the other healer acts like they only have dps spells.

That isn't to say tanking isn't challenging. It is. But saying healers "just have to heal and follow mechanics" is so false. We're constantly expected to and have to make up for the shortcomings of others.

One of the reasons why people shy away from tanking is because tanks lead the pace of the group, therefore everyone has their eyes on them all the time. That on its own can be very daunting. Healers tend to be invisible until something goes wrong.

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And the last paragraph is why SE puts a mount carrot on a stick for tanks. Even when healers have more complex tasks than tanks, most healer players will just ride the storm by healing and following mechanics, and some refusing to dps even when no major damage is going out. At the end of the day, most people wouldn't really care about how high or how significant the healer's dps is a long as they clear the content.

But people have been going around the regular tank mount mountain by doing Garuda EX unsynced a lot.

Before Samurai came out, I remember back in Heavensward when Melee DPS had faster queues than healers for level 60 and Expert roulettes at times. I remember having 5-15 minute healer queues and nigh-instant to 10 minute melee dps queues.

I would like a unique reward too.
However if you want one, you will need to get most healers to quit playing healer jobs.

I'm not opposed to any class-specific mounts, but I don't think it should be obtainable in the same way that tank mounts are. The whole point of tank mounts is to encourage people to play the least played role.

I am tank main, but if these mounts where a thing, I would queue often as healer until I got the healer mounts. I could see this hurting queue times.

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Originally Posted by LaylaTsarra

I don't see why healers should be treated any differently than tanks. The tank mounts aren't all that special other than being willing to invest the time and effort into completing the number of duties required. I suppose the same could be said about dps but oddly enough in this game tanks seems to treated very differently relative to the other roles.

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Tanks are treated differently because the players themselves avoid tanking to the point that the role needs incentives. It doesn't help that the player base also discourages each other from tanking by not giving tanks room to learn her/his responsibilities, like pulling mobs for the tank and undermining the tank's decisions about pace and positioning.

The devs are not going to encourage you to play an already popular role even more by making achievements that require you to play that role to get mounts. If you really want healer mounts (without adding mounts to other roles at the same time) then you need to do your part in making it an unpopular role. Stop healing dungeons, trials and raids. And hey, why not grab those tank mounts while not healing too?

Why not just make healer/tank specific challenges/achievements that can reward glamour and mounts? I know about the tank ones, but the healing ones can be something other than "run X number of high end fights".

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

You did the same thing you're accusing someone else of doing.

What was said was "Most healers usually just really need to heal and folllow mechanics as necessary just to get most of the basic content done.". You're acting as if they said "All healers just need to only heal and do mechanics to get anything done.".

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But they're still wrong. Most players need to do more than basic requirements.

When ANYONE does only the bare minimum they're forcing someone else or even the whole group to carry them. How noticeable this is depends on the content.

However this thread is about acknowledging the healers' contribution to group play, and one tank made the false assumption that healing is a role where the bare minimum is not only enough, but is what most healers do.

But hey shoot me for correcting them on only the specific thing they got wrong instead of lecturing them on how group play as a whole works, right? ;D

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Originally Posted by Penthea

But they're still wrong. Most players need to do more than basic requirements.

When ANYONE does only the bare minimum they're forcing someone else or even the whole group to carry them. How noticeable this is depends on the content.

However this thread is about acknowledging the healers' contribution to group play, and one tank made the false assumption that healing is a role where the bare minimum is not only enough, but is what most healers do.

But hey shoot me for correcting them on only the specific thing they got wrong instead of lecturing them on how group play as a whole works, right? ;D

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Huh no. Most healers SHOULD do more than healing and basic mechanics. But they don't NEED to, because most of the basic content simply doesn't require it. It's too damn easy.

So yes, you're wrong. You're hyperbolizing SHOULD with NEED.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Huh no. Most healers SHOULD do more than healing and basic mechanics. But they don't NEED to, because most of the basic content simply doesn't require it. It's too damn easy.

So yes, you're wrong. You're hyperbolizing SHOULD with NEED.

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If you want to go down that route you could say the same about tanking. Or dps. Or anything really.

I have seen plenty of tank stance tanks who did little other than stand around and get hit, seen plenty of dps who did mediocre damage at best and used no role actions, and seen loads of healers have the group at low hp all the time despite their large mana pool. So then if easy content often allows players of any role to do the bare minimum, why should only tanks get access to role-based rewards?

Also are you somehow unaware that people can make content more difficult by doing things such as chain pulling mobs, being undergeared, or simply playing badly? Don't underestimate how much reckless and/or bad players can change how content feels.

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Originally Posted by Raven_Darkstar

Yup. And guess who gets the blame when something goes wrong? Regardless of whether or not said healer was actually at fault.

In addition to healing, doing mechanics and carrying other players, we also have to dps as much as possible. So healing being a simple matter of performing your primary role plus mechs? Yeah... No.

Yet tanks are the only role that gets achievement mounts. I've honestly never felt that that was particularly fair. In my own experience, both healing and tanking, healers are needed every bit as much. I can't tell you how many times I've had to sit in queue waiting for a healer as tank, but it's far more than the reverse.

In my opinion, role in need should be two tier, as someone said earlier in the thread, and second in need should be getting rewards too. Show healers some love too, SE.

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As a healer, I love when someone gets one shot (tank) because they didn't use their cooldown but it's automatically assumed to be the healers fault. :') And, it's actually not the easiest thing in the world to heal + DPS spam when the tank pulls huge waves and doesn't have the best gear. n__n; Especially when the DPS decides to just sit in every aoe (I find black mages to be the worst offenders). Not sure why people act like healing is an easy thing to do.... even my friend who is a hardcore player and can play pretty much any content on any role admits healing is the most difficult role.

And do you need to do DPS? Maybe not. But you *should*. I mean, tanks can also do the bare minimum and perform pretty poorly too. And I've seen it plenty of times....

I don't really tank so I don't know how queues are for tanks but mine are almost always instant unless I'm doing a 24 man or something super old and obscure OR I'm trying to do something at 5am. If it's true that there are just as many healers missing as tanks then I'm confused as to why we aren't treated the same as tanks. :/

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Originally Posted by Mikki

At level 30 you get a unicorn. "And that's it, you're basically done with healing. The game doesn't reward you past that. I hope you like it."

It would be nice if I could get something as a healer but healers already have a fair amount of people playing it compared to tank so I guess I see why we don't. *shrugs*

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I think all roles should get mounts to be honest. The vast number of DPS players and jobs doesn't sweep under the rug what they go through e.g. long ass queue time for a progress dungeon only to have the tank and healer bicker at each other, and one if not both bail; being told being a melee sucks for X boss; or just the shear DPS loss penalty for failing a mechanic.

Just because a role/job doesn't need to be incentivized, doesn't mean it shouldn't be rewarded for playing it an extended amount of time. It would be nice for those who choose to main something. This applies to crafters and gatherers too. I'm probably as much a CUL/BTN main as I am a healer.

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Originally Posted by Mikki

I don't really tank so I don't know how queues are for tanks but mine are almost always instant unless I'm doing a 24 man or something super old and obscure OR I'm trying to do something at 5am. If it's true that there are just as many healers missing as tanks then I'm confused as to why we aren't treated the same as tanks. :/

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Because it isn't true, healers are more numerous than tanks.

Might not be by a lot, but it's by a large enough margin that it's barely ever the role in the need, and also a large enough margin that SE clearly doesn't see any need to incentivize the role.

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Originally Posted by Gemina

I think all roles should get mounts to be honest.

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/thread

If you want the tank goodies you tank, want the healer goodies you heal, want the dps goodies you dps. The incentive to play all roles for the rewards would be there as long as the rewards differ for each.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Huh no. Most healers SHOULD do more than healing and basic mechanics. But they don't NEED to, because most of the basic content simply doesn't require it. It's too damn easy.

So yes, you're wrong. You're hyperbolizing SHOULD with NEED.

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Nor tanks, much less DPS. On easy content, DPS could even ignore mechanics if the healer is good enough. In those contents, tanks can tank without using any cooldown and an ice mage can do an alrighty damage if he keeps the GCD rolling. They will clear that easy content.

But that doesn't change the fact that an healer that just heals, an tank who don't use cooldowns and an ice mage are the example of players who don't do even the bare minimum. The bare minimum for healers is heals+support+mechanics+DPS. The bare minimum for tanks is manage aggro+cooldowns+positioning+mechanics+DPS. The bare minimum for any DPS is doing their rotation (which means do damage)+mechanics. And if someone does anything less than what I described, people will notice, because that will make that content harder. Specially for the healer. For instance, healing Sastasha (the easiest content) with a tank that is using ilvl 1 equips is... Quite challenging. Specially if he don't know how to use Flash, Shield Lob, Overpower, Tomahawk, Unleash, Unmend or even Rampart. All of those available by level 15. And a dungeon that a SCH could do without casting Physick not even once (just EOS's embraces would do) can be a nightmare.

And I say that as healer main who always heals pugs.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

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The statement of the tank:

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

Most healers usually just really need to heal and folllow mechanics as necessary just to get most of the basic content done. They can supplement DPS if the party, especially the tank, is geared enough.

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He used the words “usually just really.” Which means for “the most part.” Also, he stated a “most of the basic content done” which more-than-likely excludes raids, extremes, and ultimate. The last sentence shows that he understands that if he, a tank, is geared enough, a Healer can do more than just heal… in this case, DPS.

Your response:

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Originally Posted by Penthea

That isn't to say tanking isn't challenging. It is. But saying healers "just have to heal and follow mechanics" is so false. We're constantly expected to and have to make up for the shortcomings of others.

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From my perspective: You read the statement and only saw the word “just”, which is a whole different meaning than what he stated. You took his statement personally. Instead of waiting a few minutes to cool down and re-read it again, you tried to “correct” him on something he already knows about.

Also, you added to that statement an addendum implies that there is a community forced burden on healers, that they must constantly and always do more and make up for everyone else’s shortcoming. Which seems like an expectation you placed on yourself. *

You’re “correcting” someone who didn’t need to be corrected at all.

*Exceptions to events like raids, extremes, and ultimate.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

It appears that when someone says "healers must do X" you automatically read it as "only healers do X".

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Don’t project too much now, you’ll burn out your bulb.

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Originally Posted by RokkuEkkusu

Most healers usually just really need to heal and folllow mechanics as necessary just to get most of the basic content done. They can supplement DPS if the party, especially the tank, is geared enough.

However, tanks have to hold aggro, position the boss, and time defensive cooldowns for some hard hitting attacks. And not to mention the average DF attitude toward tanks at times can be harsh for most players.

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How else am I supposed to take this other than to mean "a healer's job is usually very basic"? This player was clearly trying to make the healer role look very simple compared to a tank's job to justify healers having no role based rewards.

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Originally Posted by Xtrasweettea

From my perspective: You read the statement and only saw the word “just”, which is a whole different meaning than what he stated. You took his statement personally. Instead of waiting a few minutes to cool down and re-read it again, you tried to “correct” him on something he already knows about.

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So let me get this straight, I am at fault for taking the meaning of the word "just" in the way it is usually meant? This is your argument?

lol

You're the one who needs to cool off, you're getting all worked up over one word to the point of trying to change its meaning :rolleyes:

I'm not sure where you can find it, but I'm fairly certain it was once said by the devs that each job was going to get a mount, and that they added the unicorn for WHM first to entice players into leveling it.

Given that this was years ago, I wouldn't be surprised if they dropped the idea outright.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

Nor tanks, much less DPS. On easy content, DPS could even ignore mechanics if the healer is good enough. In those contents, tanks can tank without using any cooldown and an ice mage can do an alrighty damage if he keeps the GCD rolling. They will clear that easy content.

But that doesn't change the fact that an healer that just heals, an tank who don't use cooldowns and an ice mage are the example of players who don't do even the bare minimum. The bare minimum for healers is heals+support+mechanics+DPS.

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No it isn't. If you want to talk about simply just clearing content, a healer doesn't have to use one offensive gcd or ogcd. If you want to talk about min/maxing, skipping raid phases, and overall playing optimally then yes it is required. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it is ok to play this way, and if healers are not using offensive skills they will spend a lot of time just standing around or over-healing. But I do have to be real here. Now granted, I have not participated in any of the SB raids so I could be unaware if the devs have changed designing content that does not factor healer DPS into the clears. But I haven't heard anything from them about it.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

If you want to go down that route you could say the same about tanking. Or dps. Or anything really.

I have seen plenty of tank stance tanks who did little other than stand around and get hit, seen plenty of dps who did mediocre damage at best and used no role actions, and seen loads of healers have the group at low hp all the time despite their large mana pool. So then if easy content often allows players of any role to do the bare minimum, why should only tanks get access to role-based rewards?

Also are you somehow unaware that people can make content more difficult by doing things such as chain pulling mobs, being undergeared, or simply playing badly? Don't underestimate how much reckless and/or bad players can change how content feels.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

Nor tanks, much less DPS. On easy content, DPS could even ignore mechanics if the healer is good enough. In those contents, tanks can tank without using any cooldown and an ice mage can do an alrighty damage if he keeps the GCD rolling. They will clear that easy content.

But that doesn't change the fact that an healer that just heals, an tank who don't use cooldowns and an ice mage are the example of players who don't do even the bare minimum. The bare minimum for healers is heals+support+mechanics+DPS. The bare minimum for tanks is manage aggro+cooldowns+positioning+mechanics+DPS. The bare minimum for any DPS is doing their rotation (which means do damage)+mechanics. And if someone does anything less than what I described, people will notice, because that will make that content harder. Specially for the healer. For instance, healing Sastasha (the easiest content) with a tank that is using ilvl 1 equips is... Quite challenging. Specially if he don't know how to use Flash, Shield Lob, Overpower, Tomahawk, Unleash, Unmend or even Rampart. All of those available by level 15. And a dungeon that a SCH could do without casting Physick not even once (just EOS's embraces would do) can be a nightmare.

And I say that as healer main who always heals pugs.

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Oh believe me, I'm one of the first ones defending people doing their best. But let's not fool ourselves. You're both just arguing this to prop up the healer role. Funny how you both usually are on the side of people who don't do their best on other threads, but once someone even seems to suggest healers usually aren't theheroes you both seem to think they are, here comes the flip-flopping.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Oh believe me, I'm one of the first ones defending people doing their best. But let's not fool ourselves. You're both just arguing this to prop up the healer role. Funny how you both usually are on the side of people who don't do their best on other threads, but once someone even seems to suggest healers usually aren't theheroes you both seem to think they are, here comes the flip-flopping.

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So it's flip flopping to defend people not doing their best, and then to correct someone when they claim healers usually have an easy role? Uh...I regret to inform you that these two things are not always related. One is defending people who may not be in a favourable situation, the other is correcting someone making a false assumption.

But sure make them the same if it makes you happy.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

So it's flip flopping to defend people not doing their best, and then to correct someone when they claim healers usually have an easy role? Uh...I regret to inform you that these two things are not always related. One is defending people who may not be in a favourable situation, the other is correcting someone making a false assumption.

But sure make them the same if it makes you happy.

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But it is, in most basic content, which is what was said.
I know, I heal occasionally, in every roulette. I DPS, I pre-shield any tankbusters, I top up people in preparation for raidwide AoEs. But I don't have to fully use my kit, I've never even touched Rescue. Because most basic content is just that easy.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

But it is, in most basic content, which is what was said.
I know, I heal occasionally, in every roulette. I DPS, I pre-shield any tankbusters, I top up people in preparation for raidwide AoEs. But I don't have to fully use my kit, I've never even touched Rescue. Because most basic content is just that easy.

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As if the use of Rescue is an indication of how difficult content is.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

As if the use of Rescue is an indication of how difficult content is.

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No, but apparently pretending most basic content is as hard as an Ex Trial or Savage is.

At this point of the game, healers have more than completely spent their martyrdom credits. No one's buying that act. You're essential, but not at the cost of the other roles.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

No, but apparently pretending most basic content is as hard as an Ex Trial or Savage is.

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Please direct me to where someone said this. It's the first time I have read it in this thread.

Wasnt the last census showing where healers where only 1-2% higher than tanks. So I see no reason they shouldnt get incentives rewards.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Please direct me to where someone said this. It's the first time I have read it in this thread.

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Why did you present worst case scenarios as an example that healers do a whole lot of stuff then, if not to illustrate that most of the basic content is harder than it actually is? Because otherwise, like the other poster said, usually healers just have to heal and do mechanics in most of the basic content.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Why did you present worst case scenarios as an example that healers do a whole lot of stuff then, if not to illustrate that most of the basic content is harder than it actually is? Because otherwise, like the other poster said, usually healers just have to heal and do mechanics in most of the basic content.

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So in other words you cannot direct me to where someone said basic content is just as difficult as ex or savage if you're a healer because no one said it. Good to know. I thought I missed a post.

Also why are you implying really horrible scenarios can't happen outside of ex and savage? Most of the worst wipefests I have seen have been in 24 man content.

EDIT: and please note I simply said "wipefests" not "wipefests while playing as a specific role".

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Originally Posted by Penthea

So in other words you cannot direct me to where someone said basic content is just as difficult as ex or savage if you're a healer because no one said it. Good to know. I thought I missed a post.

Also why are you implying really horrible scenarios can't happen outside of ex and savage? Most of the worst wipefests I have seen have been in 24 man content.

EDIT: and please note I simply said "wipefests" not "wipefests while playing as a specific role".

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Really horrible scenarios neither show that most basic content is hard, nor that healers doing more than healing and mechanics is essential to deal with them. You're the one trying to push both notions.

That's called backpedalling, because earlier you implied healers were essential in preventing/dealing with wipefests. Just because you're changing your argument now doesn't mean you didn't say so earlier in the topic.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

No, but apparently pretending most basic content is as hard as an Ex Trial or Savage is.

At this point of the game, healers have more than completely spent their martyrdom credits. No one's buying that act. You're essential, but not at the cost of the other roles.

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Actually if talking just the basic content, healers and tanks can get through it just fine without any DPS. It'll be slow, but they'll get it done. I don't think the same can be said for any other duo composition. At least not in as many cases. In short, if you cannot kill the opposition before heals are needed, you're pretty much screwed. I don't think there is any other role in this game that can save a raid when 7 players are down, and the boss still has over 15%. Perhaps SMN or RDM can do so. But even without LB3, I'm not sure their MP can handle that without crippling themselves.

This is not the say that tanks and DPS are hogwash. They are all very important for getting through content, but trust me my friend, healers deserve their martyrdom credits even if you feel they don't.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Really horrible scenarios neither show that most basic content is hard, nor that healers doing more than healing and mechanics is essential to deal with them. You're the one trying to push both notions.

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As I said before the players you're doing the content with can change how the content feels. I have done some low lvl content that felt nightmarish and far higher lvl content that felt effortless. Why? Because of the sort of players I ended up with.

Or do we forget this to suit the argument that basic content must always be easy no matter who you end up with so we can keep pretending only tanks bear the burden of keeping the group intact?

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

That's called backpedalling, because earlier you implied healers were essential in preventing/dealing with wipefests. Just because you're changing your argument now doesn't mean you didn't say so earlier in the topic.

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Are you seriously trying to say it's impossible for both of the following to be true? That healers are often instrumental in dealing with wipefests, and that you can experience bad wipefests as any role? What? xD

In case you're unaware, healers have the best kits to deal with group-wide disaster given that they're literally designed to deal with this. Other classes can help but they're never a replacement for actual healer classes. Just like how healer dps can never compete with the damage from an equally skilled dps player. This isn't glorifying healers. This is the truth. You're not going to get a well-timed clutch aoe heal paired with a Rescue from a tank or dps.

But does this mean wipefests are only stressful for healers? Absolutely not.

While healers are largely responsible for getting groups back to a healthy state, what happens while the majority of the dps are dead and there's a dps check? Well the remaining dps are suddenly pressured to try to pump out even more numbers even though it may be impossible and sometimes they have to weigh whether ressing someone will give the group more dps than saving mana for their own damage output. Tanks also feel the dps pressure along with simultaneously having to think about maintaining their role as the tank. And what about targeted mechanics that get casted on the wrong targets because the usual targets are dead? Well that's a problem any role can experience. Every role bears the weight of disastrous situations to some degree. How strenuous it is depends on the encounter and the people with you.

Which brings me to what this thread is about.

No, tanking is not the only role that requires skill or snap decision making, and it is not the only role that can be stressful. So it's not right that only tanks get role based rewards. Healers should get recognition too. But in addition to that I think dps should as well. All roles should have role based rewards, as I already said before.

Just because something is the least popular doesn't automatically mean it requires the most braincells to play. How appealing something is isn't always equal to how little effort it is to play. I personally find whm very easy to play compared to the other two healers but I don't play it because I find it boring.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

No, but apparently pretending most basic content is as hard as an Ex Trial or Savage is.

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Nothing new under the sun. We have people that treats everything at savage level and get upset if you go Sastasha without the best gear you can there.

But, about healer's dps, I just have to say if we have offensive skills, don't using them is a waste!

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Originally Posted by Gemina

No it isn't. If you want to talk about simply just clearing content, a healer doesn't have to use one offensive gcd or ogcd. If you want to talk about min/maxing, skipping raid phases, and overall playing optimally then yes it is required. Don't get me wrong, I am not saying it is ok to play this way, and if healers are not using offensive skills they will spend a lot of time just standing around or over-healing. But I do have to be real here. Now granted, I have not participated in any of the SB raids so I could be unaware if the devs have changed designing content that does not factor healer DPS into the clears. But I haven't heard anything from them about it.

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The game wasn't programmed to consider the healer DPS as an necessary damage to get the clear. Yoshi-P himself said so a long time ago. But the community thinks otherwise, because ABC, because half of the healer's work is doing DPS, because 2 healer's DPS is almost like there are an extra DPS there or they yet remember when WHM had some spot outDPSing actual DPS classes back on ARR times. The fact is that now - by the community standards - the healer's bare basic includes DPSing.

So, if we want to discuss the minimum standards, we have to define first which standards we are speaking. Remember that the community standards are higher than the dev team standards.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Oh believe me, I'm one of the first ones defending people doing their best. But let's not fool ourselves. You're both just arguing this to prop up the healer role. Funny how you both usually are on the side of people who don't do their best on other threads, but once someone even seems to suggest healers usually aren't theheroes you both seem to think they are, here comes the flip-flopping.

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While you are saying exactly what I said before and you criticized me for. How ironic...

But, well, I changed my mind a long time ago. And it seems that you've changed yours as well. Or you're against giving some prop to healers because you want to keep that props as a some sort of "Tank Privilege©". And wants to defend that privilege, even that means to say that healing is about standing 10 seconds there doing nothing while the poor tank must save the world to just get the clear.

But there are one thing I reinforced in my mind: I wouldn't like to be in the same party as you. Lucky me we're on different DCs.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

While you are saying exactly what I said before and you criticized me for. How ironic...

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What I'm saying is for healers not to suddenly pretend that they need to do everything expected of them, when they were defending healers only need to do the bare minimum in past threads. All just to play the "healer hero/martyr" card - healers do everything, they guarantee victory and they have to suffer through so much (when any reasonable person knows it's all 3 roles doing it, not just one.)

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

But, well, I changed my mind a long time ago. And it seems that you've changed yours as well. Or you're against giving some prop to healers because you want to keep that props as a some sort of "Tank Privilege©". And wants to defend that privilege, even that means to say that healing is about standing 10 seconds there doing nothing while the poor tank must save the world to just get the clear.

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I'm DPS main, but nice try at trying to twist my argument around. I'm defending mounts for everyone, not just tanks, not just healers.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

But there are one thing I reinforced in my mind: I wouldn't like to be in the same party as you. Lucky me we're on different DCs.

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Don't worry, I have healer friends who do their job excelently and don't have any "healers are martyrized heroes" complexes. When they're not available, I just heal duties myself.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Don't worry, I have healer friends who do their job excelently and don't have any "healers are martyrized heroes" complexes. When they're not available, I just heal duties myself.

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I love how saying "healers usually do more than just heal and boss tactics" means you're trying to make martyrs out of them. That acknowledging that the community expects more as a base must be an exaggeration.

Well if that's the case I guess I must be a unicorn for also weaving in dps and using any non-healing utility? But then...that would mean I see unicorns a lot, because I see healers do this very often.

Hmmm.

Are you sure we're playing the same game?

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

All just to play the "healer hero/martyr" card - healers do everything, they guarantee victory and they have to suffer through so much (when any reasonable person knows it's all 3 roles doing it, not just one.)

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Who said healers do "everything"? Is this you highlighting something no one said again? Like when you said "No, but apparently pretending most basic content is as hard as an Ex Trial or Savage is" when no one had said this at all?

I'm starting to think you actually just dislike healers, so you pull stuff out of the air in an attempt to delegitimize them.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I love how saying "healers usually do more than just heal and boss tactics" means you're trying to make martyrs out of them. That acknowledging that the community expects more as a base must be an exaggeration.

Well if that's the case I guess I must be a unicorn for also weaving in dps and using any non-healing utility? But then...that would mean I see unicorns a lot, because I see healers do this very often.

Hmmm.

Are you sure we're playing the same game?.

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Oh excuse me. I didn't notice that you just entered the topic and have no clue of what people are talking about. I'm sure the main argument was that healers deserve rewards based solely on the kindness of the devs, and not the narrative that healers have to do so much all the time to ensure success of the party/alliance and they have to suffer so much. Protip: if everyone's doing their job, healers aren't shining ahead of the other two roles. So let's not use screw ups as an argument, when healers can screw up too and when there's also pretty lousy healers out there.

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Originally Posted by Penthea

Who said healers do "everything"? Is this you highlighting something no one said again? Like when you said "No, but apparently pretending most basic content is as hard as an Ex Trial or Savage is" when no one had said this at all?

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Uuh, you did, remember? When you berated someone for saying healers only need to heal and do mechanics in most basic content ? Which you said was incorrect. Therefore, the logic conclusion is that most basic content equates Savage difficulty, where healers definitely can't afford to drop the ball... But yeah, let's pretend we haven't argued this already several pages ago and you're still hitting the same key after all of this...

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Originally Posted by Penthea

I'm starting to think you actually just dislike healers, so you pull stuff out of the air in an attempt to delegitimize them.

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Right, I hate healers while keeping my SCH geared up right after my RDM (main) and healing myself frequently...
I'm starting to think you don't support rewards for all three roles after all, because you keep shilling and putting your favorite role on a pedestal, and being very disingenuous about things already discussed previously.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

Uuh, you did, remember? When you berated someone for saying healers only need to heal and do mechanics in most basic content ? Which you said was incorrect. Therefore, the logic conclusion is that most basic content equates Savage difficulty, where healers definitely can't afford to drop the ball... But yeah, let's pretend we haven't argued this already several pages ago and you're still hitting the same key after all of this...

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Are you serious? You think content is literally only split into savage/ex and "the rest"? So then you think Bardam's Mettle is the same difficulty as Sastasha normal? You don't think there is anything resembling a difficulty curve in the game? You don't think the game gradually demands more from players as they lvl up?

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

and healing myself frequently...

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Are you sure? Because you have some really funny ideas about how difficulty is balanced in the game.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

I'm starting to think you don't support rewards for all three roles after all, because you keep shilling and putting your favorite role on a pedestal, and being very disingenuous about things already discussed previously.

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I didn't put my role on a pedestal, OP did. And how does me defending the legitimacy of my role mean I don't give a toss about the other two? I'm not allowed to care about multiple things?