what is it with these damn elitists in this game?

It’s important to see the perspective from their point of view OP. They probably took the time and effort to learn the fight so that they won’t burden anyone. They’re probably tired of having the fight down only to be held back by others.

Coming here to complain about a story we don’t know is even true isn’t the right thing to do. Also, there is a thread for that.

Your post only shows that you can’t handle criticism and are giving into their criticism. Be glad they basically told you that you suck in the nicest way possible instead of cussing you out.

Perhaps the person is struggles with anger and is attempting to convey their emotions in a less harmful way.

Learn to take their criticism and put it to good use to better yourself. Coming here to cry only feeds them and makes you look weak to the world.

I tell this to someone else who almost gave up playing the game they love just because they were told they suck.

Don’t give up just because someone tells you you suck. If anything next time, fight evil with love. That way you’ll make them more angry, win them over or make them look like a jackass to the whole group.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

a learning party.

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One, your definition of elitist is wrong. Two the fact that it was a learning party and OP got kicked, usually (from whats seen on these forums and in game) means the person kicked has low dps and isn't improving. It's usually always paired with those two things dying constantly + low dps in general.

I've been in learning parties and have been the cause of the wipe several times. When I know I'm the flub up, I apologize and usually people help me. A person in a pug group even went out of their way to make a macro for me cause I just couldn't grasps this one part. I refuse to believe that I'm the only one that comes across these type of people.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

On your opinion, anyone should know how to do every mechanic without a hassle and have BiS gear (that drops from savage or needs savage drops + tomes but that doesn't matter) and be able to pull up a 95 percentile performance to be acceptable to even join a learning pug?

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To join a learning party for the current primal -- and to be worth your slot -- you need to be in the Mendacity tomestone set at minimum, be able to make it through Rabinastre and Lighthouse without looking like a fool, and be able to clear Sigma/Alphascape (story) without looking like a fool. On the class you're joining that learning party with.

If you can't handle these things, or can only meet these requirements on another class, you flatly aren't worth 7 other peoples' time.

These are generous requirements, and fit the ilvl progression exactly as expressed in the game.

You deserve a kick for anything less, because you're a detriment to your team. If you insist on doing extremes without being able to handle the above, you are not, as the OP stated "a good person." You are terrible and selfish, both as a player and a person.

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Originally Posted by MrKupo

Ah so the Extreme toxicity is still around in this game... I will say it is for the betterment of the community to teach someone that you believe is worse than you, rather than kick them or berate them. In the long run, they will teach others and more people will get better at the run and you will more likely run into players that know what to do in Duty Finder.

Offer feedback, be a helpful part of the hospitable community that this game has become known for. We are all on the same side.

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There is absolutely a place for teaching players how to improve. That is not in the middle of extreme-tier content, especially when they can't handle the lower tiers at an acceptable level for that.

If the specific issue is with rotations and damage, then the best way to teach them they aren't ready for that tier is to kick them.

Additionally, a "learning party" is not a "let's just wipe a lot and not learn anything" party. You're in there to learn, and that means bringing your nerdiest shirt, a notebook, and taking notes.

Be serious about learning or hit the pavement.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

On your opinion, anyone should know how to do every mechanic without a hassle and have BiS gear (that drops from savage or needs savage drops + tomes but that doesn't matter) and be able to pull up a 95 percentile performance to be acceptable to even join a learning pug?

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Why do people constantly confuse "asking for purple parsers" with "asking to understand your rotation and basic mechanics"?
Seriously - asking someone to pull decent numbers isnt the same as asking for a purple parser and I can assure you that everyone is only doing the first. But if you go into current endgame content, specially stuff like an Ex-primal and you're at 2k DPS (as a DPS), then you're either getting carried or are a liabelity to 7 other people - in other words: You have no place joining a learning party for a fight if you actually need to learn your job first.

And even if it says learning party and everyone learns at a different pace: At a certain point someone who keeps messing up simple mechanics and repeats the same mistake over and over again and shows no sign of improving isnt so much learning the fight and rather holding 7 other people back.

There is obviously no need to be rude, mean or insulting about this - but there is also absolutly nothing wrong with dismissing such a person from a party, maybe even with the suggestion to improve before they try again.

So, no - you dont need to be 95 percentile to join a learning pug. All you need is:
- the will and the ability to actually learn and improve
- only using both of that to learn the fight, not your job
- since you have your job down already and are able to perform at a level thats acceptable at level 70. That does not mean purple logs - stop confusing the two.

Quite frankly I believe that a person who cant do those things should excuse themself from the party instead of wasting the time of 7 other people.
Call me rude, call me an elitist - but I believe that asking 7 people (possibly strangers) to put a hold on their own progression because you cant get your stuff together is quite rude already.

...and I just cant stress enough: No one in learning parties is asking for what you described - and I know you've been exaggerating, but the actual requests of learning parties seem quite reasonable to me: Show that you are capable of learning this fight. If you arent and keep repeating the same mistakes - whats your buisness there?

I always assumed FF14 catered to the casual crowd at least that is what I think SE is going for. Telling people to learn their job or gtfo is what I'm sensing from most people here. Which I think is a bad sign if they are representing the community.

I'm just one of those subpar casual gamers that dislike elitists. Then again I'm a poor person that hates on rich people too. Guess I just like hating on the higher class people.

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Originally Posted by Dirwen

I always assumed FF14 catered to the casual crowd at least that is what I think SE is going for. Telling people to learn their job or gtfo is what I'm sensing from most people here. Which I think is a bad sign if they are representing the community.

I'm just one of those subpar casual gamers that dislike elitists. Then again I'm a poor person that hates on rich people too. Guess I just like hating on the higher class people.

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SE has bent over backwards to make this game appealing to casual players, and that's great! But the instant you cross the threshold beyond normal-tier content, expect to "learn your job or gtfo." Your words.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

SE has bent over backwards to make this game appealing to casual players, and that's great! But the instant you cross the threshold beyond normal-tier content, expect to "learn your job or gtfo." Your words.

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I probably won't try high tier raids for that reason but for those that do I feel for them is all. It's probably why SE only release so few of those raids so the high skilled people have something to do at least. Also yes my words but it's what you guys are thinking. Only calling it out as I see it.

The community keep complaining how about how bad players are, yet players try to learn, they are ridiculed. People expect perfection from day 1. Players are human, they will make mistakes. Do you see pro athletes perform perfectly 100% of the time? No. Why is there an expectation in this game that people never make mistakes?

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Originally Posted by Brill_

The community keep complaining how about how bad players are, yet players try to learn, they are ridiculed.

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I'mma stop you right there chief. 90% of the players aren't interested in learning. They want to be carried. Nobody expects perfection. We expect general knowledge of the workings of your job. Like not doing trick attack on the first GCD.

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Originally Posted by AxlStream

I'mma stop you right there chief. 90% of the players aren't interested in learning. They want to be carried. Nobody expects perfection. We expect general knowledge of the workings of your job. Like not doing trick attack on the first GCD.

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At this point, I'd be content if I could just trust people to push buttons.

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Originally Posted by van_arn

At this point, if be content if I could just trust people to push buttons.

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You are very blunt...and to the point, with no filter at all...

...

I need to play with you in-game some time :) (serious offer)

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Originally Posted by Brill_

The community keep complaining how about how bad players are, yet players try to learn, they are ridiculed. People expect perfection from day 1. Players are human, they will make mistakes. Do you see pro athletes perform perfectly 100% of the time? No. Why is there an expectation in this game that people never make mistakes?

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This. I agree with this.

Rare are the people that actually take time out of their progression to help someone else. A few people have already insinuated it already. If you aren't joining a practice party and are not on their level already, you will get kicked...from a practice party. The disgusting thing about all this is that everything that is being said is all subjective. You can say 'You have got to know how to play your job, if you want to join this party.' But what entails knowing your job? To some people here, it's being able to do rotations efficiency and keep it up while doing mechanics. To other's is a flat number. 4,000dps, 5,000, maybe more.

I agree with what most people are insinuating here: If you take a person in to Shinryu Ex, and they are consistantly failing at a mechanic - be it falling from tsunami, or placing tail at wrong tile, or not handling earth shaker, then yea...it's probably time for them to move on. the problem is, what is 'consistantly?' for me? Any more than 5 in a row, and even I - as far from 'elitest' as you can get - am taking objection. But I've seen, been in, and have even been subject to, parties that will kick you the moment you mess up on anything. It could have been a successful clear, and that person will get kicked anyway, because of one failure. Now...to each their own, everyone has their own play style...

...but damn...that's harsh....

That being said, it isn't like there isn't two sides to this story. There are the hardcore, expect the best elitists, as they are in any game; but don't make it sound like there aren't the 'please carry me' casuals out there as well, those that not only do bad at their job, but do so deliberately and use it as an excuse to try to get past content. The problem is that we are so quick to label people this. I, for example, know just enough on other jobs other than White mage to pass. I can tank and dps dungeons, but would never try to enter them in to current extremes and savages, cause I can't hold a candle. Yet when I do play these jobs on a 'casual' level in dungeons, because I'm not doing what they consider A list work on that job..people assume that I am bad, no matter what. Likewise, if a person sees a player in full current savage gear, they immediately think elitist and treat them as such.

It's not right either way. The point to take away from all this is: No matter what you do, you're wrong. People will hate you regardless. Either you are a casual scrub that doesn't deserve to do extreme or savage content, because you are just a cancerous burden that weighs the raiding population down, or you are an elitist that takes the job to seriously, and circle shirks it when he pulls up his parser to see he is top dps. There is no in between.

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Originally Posted by Dirwen

I always assumed FF14 catered to the casual crowd at least that is what I think SE is going for. Telling people to learn their job or gtfo is what I'm sensing from most people here. Which I think is a bad sign if they are representing the community. I'm just one of those subpar casual gamers that dislike elitists. Then again I'm a poor person that hates on rich people too. Guess I just like hating on the higher class people.

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You need to understand that while most content does cater to the more casual gamer and can be completed, even if everyone involved plays at subpar levels, there is content that cant.
Content that is supposed to be a challenge - not everyone enjoy that and thats fine. Thats why we get two versions of this content: a normal version, that includes the story, and an extreme or savage version, that includes the challenge.
Now, a challenge is naturally something you need to be prepared for - for example by being able to play the job you picked at an appropriate level for your level (in this case 70).
If you dont, you have no buisness being in that content - ask yourself: If everyone would be playing at your skill-level, would you be able to clear the content?
If the answer is "no", then you need to improve before you try again - just how it is in any solo-game or probabyl sports irl.

I found the community in general to be pretty nice and helpful, but think about what you're asking here: You are asking 7 other people, who did their homework, learned their jobs, got their gear... to spend more of their freetime on that encounter, just so you can clear it to without having to bother with your own homework.
Or well, you're not asking for this, because you made the sensible choice for yourself not to take on that challenge - which is perfectly fine and okay! If you dont enjoy playing your class to its full potential and dont want to challenge yourself, that is totally okay - in all the content where it doesnt terribly matter in. In all the content that is designed for the more "casual" player - dungeons, NM versions of raids and trials, 24 man raids... but the minute you step into the little content we have in which your performance does matter - Ex-primals, Savage and Ultimate-raids - you better bring that performance or gtfo. Not because the community is made up of evil elitist, but because the people who want to take on those challenges would like to do so with the chance of clearing the content - and if you cant contribute to that, what are you doing there?

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Originally Posted by Brill_

The community keep complaining how about how bad players are, yet players try to learn, they are ridiculed. People expect perfection from day 1. Players are human, they will make mistakes. Do you see pro athletes perform perfectly 100% of the time? No. Why is there an expectation in this game that people never make mistakes?

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There is a place to learn certain things - as in: an Ex-primal is not the place to learn your rotation, for example. You can do that on a dummy.
And in general people arent kicked over one mistake, specially if they show remorse and express that they know what they did wrong and have every intend of fixing it.

Again: The waste majority isnt expecting perfection - they might very well expect certain things stated in a PF-description. If that says "practise colour-phase" for Suzaku that expectation is clearly that you know how to handle the mechanics leading up to that - if you make an honest mistake there (like confusing clockwise and anti-clockwise), but apologise for it, I doubt anyone will mind - specially if you show afterwards that you know how that mechanic works. But if you are completly clueless and keep messing up, you just dont belong in a party that wants to practise a later phase when you clearly dont have the first one down.

You are expecting 7 strangers to just drop their own goal to help you with yours?

Personally, I dont expect people not to make mistakes - I expect them to not always repeat the same mistake. If someone missplaces their meteor in Tsukuyomi once - no big deal, it happens, we go over that quick ("Please make sure you put the meteor in the right spot"). If that same person missplaces their meteor again, they get asked to pay more attention. And if they repeat that mistake, there needs to be talk about a replacement.
Its not asking for perfection - its asking for actual learning from your mistakes to not repeat them all the time.
And its not asking for anything unreasonable if you expect people to know how to play their class at level 70 - and not to practise that in an Ex-primal run.

An athelete might not be perfect 100% of the time, but if he continues to fail, do you think his sponsor or trainer or team will keep him on?
To use your analogy: I havent played football in... probably 15 years and when I played, I played very, very poorly with no will to improve (dont worry, I eventually stopped alltogether and let the other kids on the playground have the ball). If I were to go to my national football-team and demand to play the next season - do you think they should take me on?
No, of course not - they're looking for people playing at their level. And those people can make the occassional mistake, of course! But if someone would constantly pass the ball to the other team - "uups, didnt notice, hehe, just a little mistake!" - or score more own goals than goals for their actual team - do you think they would and should keep that person on?

...why do people hold this believe that asking for a certain level of skill in content thats meant as a challenge is somehow horrible?

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Originally Posted by Vidu

bloop

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They were asking if pro athletes perform 100%, every time all the time, when playing with pros. Not your example of if a guy that played football in high school walked up and demanded to play with Man United. You are comparing apples (guy who played football in highschool) to oranges (pro players). Where as they are comparing oranges that are having a 'bad day' in performance, to other pros.

In your case, of course you shouldn't expect someone who doesn't know what they are doing to be let in with people who run that content day after day, blindfold. But kicking someone cause they failed something more than once or twice is a bit much as well.

The thing about elitists is they always blame the player.

Let's be blunt. Savage as a concept simply does not work. We've had three years of it, and the NA playerbase simply does not participate or clear it in large numbers. The idea of hard 8 man content simply is not viable in MMOs I feel, not in the way we have now where it's all or nothing, and 8 people need to do a single dance "solution" to proceed. The problem is people keep blaming the player rather than discussing whether or not the actual design is the issue or not. You can't rely on random people to execute dance steps of that precision together while doing their rotation to beat enrage and having such a small margin of error. It's reflected in the interest for this content and the number of player clears over time.

At this point, there needs to be at least some discussion about whether or not this is viable. I mean, savage has only gotten more accessible over time, and really can't get much harder without alienating even more people who are not expecting carries. This is on top of the rotational difficulty being nerfed heavily on most jobs. If they game gets more complex rotationally again, we could be back to midas and the same problems.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

The thing about elitists is they always blame the player.

Let's be blunt. Savage as a concept simply does not work.

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Okay. Keep being blunt. Why doesn't it work?

Full admission I got baited there. I wasn't expecting the stealth edit, but I do thank you for going in depth as to why you feel Savage doesn't work.

It's been going for closer to five years, actually. Just because it wasn't called Savage, coils were on that level of difficulty, with Savage Coil being closer to Ultimate. You would think that if the content conceptually didn't work though, then the entire endgame wouldn't be modelled around it for five years straight. Although I guess this is FFXIV where nothing ever changes ever.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

It's been going for closer to five years, actually. Just because it wasn't called Savage, coils were on that level of difficulty, with Savage Coil being closer to Ultimate.

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I sort of wonder if we were there, how many people actually did them too. At least there has to be some discussion about it now. I can see a class being so hard that most students fail it or don't enroll. But if it's like this after years, with efforts to make it easier, idk if we can keep blaming the students, if you get my drift. I don't know if MMOs can be that hard and work; most i have done made the hard aspect time, not skill required, with not so much all or nothing in terms of rewards.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

The thing about elitists is they always blame the player.

Let's be blunt. Savage as a concept simply does not work. We've had three years of it, and the NA playerbase simply does not participate or clear it in large numbers. The idea of hard 8 man content simply is not viable in MMOs I feel, not in the way we have now where it's all or nothing, and 8 people need to do a single dance "solution" to proceed. The problem is people keep blaming the player rather than discussing whether or not the actual design is the issue or not. You can't rely on random people to execute dance steps of that precision together while doing their rotation to beat enrage and having such a small margin of error. It's reflected in the interest for this content and the number of player clears over time.

At this point, there needs to be at least some discussion about whether or not this is viable. I mean, savage has only gotten more accessible over time, and really can't get much harder without alienating even more people who are not expecting carries. This is on top of the rotational difficulty being nerfed heavily on most jobs. If they game gets more complex rotationally again, we could be back to midas and the same problems.

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You're assuming the majority of the playerbase has the minimum skill level to delve into Savage. Given the level of skill you get on DF/Ex primals regularly, it's not that people aren't interested in Savage itself. They just aren't interested in having a level of skill that allows them to go into Savage.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

The thing about elitists is they always blame the player.

Let's be blunt. Savage as a concept simply does not work. We've had three years of it, and the NA playerbase simply does not participate or clear it in large numbers. The idea of hard 8 man content simply is not viable in MMOs I feel, not in the way we have now where it's all or nothing, and 8 people need to do a single dance "solution" to proceed. The problem is people keep blaming the player rather than discussing whether or not the actual design is the issue or not. You can't rely on random people to execute dance steps of that precision together while doing their rotation to beat enrage and having such a small margin of error. It's reflected in the interest for this content and the number of player clears over time.

At this point, there needs to be at least some discussion about whether or not this is viable. I mean, savage has only gotten more accessible over time, and really can't get much harder without alienating even more people who are not expecting carries. This is on top of the rotational difficulty being nerfed heavily on most jobs. If they game gets more complex rotationally again, we could be back to midas and the same problems.

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So you say the NA community is to bad to learn a dance? No offense intended.
Just because the needed skill level is high doesn't mean it should be cloesed.
Do you think the Super Bowl isn't viable because just a handful of players can take part in it?

It's more like an honors course. It's optional, it speeds you ahead in the curriculum (gearing) and it often comes with a small amount of prestige; but its more difficult. Not everyone is cut out for honors courses just like not everyone is cut out for Savage.

They already implemented normal modes of the fights, which are themselves designed originally as savage and then watered down. There's nothing people are missing out on by not doing savage, except perhaps glamour possibilities.

If low clearing rates (mind clearing can't indicate participation since the census relies on having the mount which not even everyone who's cleared will have) were so much of an issue, they'd have stopped long ago. But this is a themepark mmo, lots of things for lots of people with expected low turnout since not everyone will want to participate in everything.

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Originally Posted by JohnSpawnVFX

You're assuming the majority of the playerbase has the minimum skill level to delve into Savage. Given the level of skill you get on DF/Ex primals regularly, it's not that people aren't interested in Savage itself. They just aren't interested in having a level of skill that allows them to go into Savage.

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That's the same thing. In either case, the content model simply doesn't work for the majority of people. But then why are you blaming the people? If people either can't or don't want to buy your product in large amounts, its something to do with the product, no?

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Originally Posted by Legion88

Do you think the Super Bowl isn't viable because just a handful of players can take part in it?

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Pro sports literally drove everyone out of doing it for recreation since the places where most people experienced them-school-has had sports programs turned into farm prep for aspiring pros. It literally sorted everyone who wasn't intending to play ama-pro out, and now most people's experience with it is going on a website and playing fantasy sports. Like back in the day kids would actually play baseball or football in pickup games in schoolyards, and little league wasn't a bunch of travel teams prepping the precoious players for high level play. If you want to extend it to here, the end result of savage is going to be ultimate, where only a small cadre of pros and aspiring pros actually do it, and everyone else watches it on stream.

The sports thing is a pet peeve of mine though, professionalization of things has over time driven a lot of people out of so many activities and made them spectators or consumers.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

That's the same thing. In either case, the content model simply doesn't work for the majority of people. But then why are you blaming the people? If people either can't or don't want to buy your product in large amounts, its something to do with the product, no?

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But there are people buying the product and are very happy with it.
Just because the product isn't for everyone it doesn't mean the product is bad.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

That's the same thing. In either case, the content model simply doesn't work for the majority of people. But then why are you blaming the people? If people either can't or don't want to buy your product in large amounts, its something to do with the product, no?

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Savage is only part of the content model. The normal modes of every fight and the story associated with it are entirely accessible to everybody who wants them. The Savage content is only for people who want challenging fights, and you of all people should be taking into account not everybody wants to do the more challenging form of these fights.

Again if this model was unsustainable I don't think it wouldn't have sustained for the past five years.

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Originally Posted by Dualgunner

Savage is only part of the content model. The normal modes of every fight and the story associated with it are entirely accessible to everybody who wants them.

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But then you can't on the other hand blame players for trying it, failing, and or being bad. There's two conflicting ideas here, one is that what you just said, but the other is that anyone can also raid savage if they put the effort in, and if they fail its because in some way THEY are bad. it's a tension that doesn't really get examined much. Oh, as for five years...well, FATES. We all railed against FATES, and what did they do? add a couple of exp bonuses and its still the same problems if not worse since HW launch.

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Originally Posted by Legion88

But there are people buying the product and are very happy with it.
Just because the product isn't for everyone it doesn't mean the product is bad.

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You'd have to discuss that among raiders. I mean...if its so fun why can't people keep statics together, or have to constantly pug replacements? Or why does it die down in two weeks?

I'm not intending to trash people, but I think at some point raiders are going to have to look at the content as much as the players and discuss it. Like I expect 5.0 to be harder than 4.0 just because there's nothing left to prune for abilities; that's going to be reflected in savage too, and there may not be the players to blame if so.

I'm going to assume that's the general "you" and agree: yes, you can't fault someone for trying. I actually cheer it on. I think a lot of people who like savage content do; even Xenosys Vex, the elitist raider supreme, joins learning parties regularly and sticks with them until they clear or disband, and if I myself didn't have such harsh social anxiety I'd do the same.

The only place I don't encourage people to "hop in and try it out" is with a farm party. A farm isn't a place to learn the fight or one's job. It's a place to farm the boss for its loot. It also feels dishonest, it reminds me of something Randall from Recess would try to do--sneak into a group that he's hoping 7/8 know already, and get fast tracked to a clear.

In any learning party though, not only full power to them but more power to them. I don't carry Nemekh's quote in my sig for nothing, it's because I believe firmly that everybody can improve, and want them to have full support for when they genuinely try to improve.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

Sorry to inform you, but the people in this forum is elitist to the core and always will give the person that harassed you the reason or the benefit of the doubt. Specially when you say that made a mistake.

Well, situations like you've passed is what keep the majority of the player base away from the raids. Myself included.

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Originally Posted by miraidensetsu

Well, the only word we have is from the victim. And we made judgements from it. I chose to take the victim's side. Some people on this topic took the agressor's side.

And what no one considered is that the party was a learning party. If the OP can't make a mistake a mistake on a party which the objective is to learn the fight, then yes, the agressor was elitist.

If the agressor was facing frustration because of that, sorry. His problem. He knew that the party was a learning one and he knew that everyone could miss a mechanic. He should be able to control his emotions. Or close the game for a while to cool down. Once he made that remark, the agressor lost his reason.

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You call others elitists which is just another word for toxic, which you obviously don't like, but doing so makes yourself toxic. Not to mention that you are judging a person by listening only to one side of the story. Seems a bit weird to me.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You'd have to discuss that among raiders. I mean...if its so fun why can't people keep statics together, or have to constantly pug replacements? Or why does it die down in two weeks?

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Because people think they can handle the product and choose it and later on they realize they can't really handle it or just to some degree.
Some may never realize that they can't handle it.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I sort of wonder if we were there, how many people actually did them too. At least there has to be some discussion about it now. I can see a class being so hard that most students fail it or don't enroll. But if it's like this after years, with efforts to make it easier, idk if we can keep blaming the students, if you get my drift. I don't know if MMOs can be that hard and work; most i have done made the hard aspect time, not skill required, with not so much all or nothing in terms of rewards.

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The problem is you're approaching Savage with the belief it was ever intended to have high clear rates. It wasn't. Hence why Savage and Normal are essentially the same thing, albeit the latter has slightly different mechanics and scaled much higher in difficulty. But it remains entirely optional. A Themepark MMO, by its very nature, is meant to have varied activities that appeal to different types of people. If Savage doesn't appeal to you, don't participate in it. No one is forcing you to.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

They were asking if pro athletes perform 100%, every time all the time, when playing with pros. Not your example of if a guy that played football in high school walked up and demanded to play with Man United. You are comparing apples (guy who played football in highschool) to oranges (pro players). Where as they are comparing oranges that are having a 'bad day' in performance, to other pros.

In your case, of course you shouldn't expect someone who doesn't know what they are doing to be let in with people who run that content day after day, blindfold. But kicking someone cause they failed something more than once or twice is a bit much as well.

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In my experience it actually is more like the example/metaphor I used: People dont get mad at someone who is at their general skill-level and shows that, because that person made one mistake - specially if the person in question owns up to it, apologise and signals "It wont happen again, it was an honest mistake, I know what I'm doing" - like that DRK I had in a recent Tsuyu-farm-group: He placed his meteor to late, resulting in a wipe, but he acknowledge that, identified that he made the mistake (and why - he wanted to get one last hit in) and assured us it wouldnt happen again. And it didnt.
One the other hand I had people in such parties who wouldnt understand meteor-placement even after it was explained the third time - and yet they insisted on being in that content. Which is sort of their right, but its also the right of the 7 other people in the party to say "...yeah, not with us".

Most dismisses I'm seeing arent "pros" dismissing "pros" over one mistake - its "pros" dismissing high school players, who believe they're pros because they scored the winning goal against another highschool two seasons ago. Or in other words: Most people I see being dismissed are the ones who cleared the NM and believe because they managed that, they can clear the EX-mode just as easly and then fall flat on their face when they have to realise that EX actually requires an amount of skill and effort that they dont have (yet).

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

I don't know, man. I just don't know. I'm with on the notion that if a person is failing a specific mechanic multiple times, something needs to happen. I just...can't bring myself to say that just because a person isn't performing up to your standards, or might be having an off day, doesn't mean he can and probably does do savage content with FCs, or friends, or what have you. I am not so quick to say that because my experience with the other healer in my Shinryu Extreme doesn't know what to do with the first dragon tail marker, or seems to forget where to go for Earth Shaker, it suddenly means that they are shit, and need to go back to casual content.

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I'd like to reply to that specifically, because there are two points in there that I'd like to reply to:

First the "not performing to my standards"-thing. I feel that as long as I make those standards clear beforehand, for example in a PF asking people to know the fight up to a certain phase and someone clearly shows that they dont, yet joined anyways, I see nothing wrong with dismissing them with a message of "Sorry, we wanted to practise phase 2, while you clearly need more practise in phase 1 first!"
I found that most "standards" or expectations of people in this game are quite reasonable - as I tried to express in my previous post: Its not 95 percentile, its playing your job at level 70, that shows that you know you're at level 70 and what to do there.

On the off-day-thing: Sure, anyone can have a bad day! But at that point, whats stopping that person from saying "Sorry, today isnt my day, I cant focus - I'll leave this party for now!"

We're obviously only seeing a glimpse of that person performance at any given time - I have FC-mates who will only run stuff with people they know, because we have some rather special ways of dealing with mechanics.
I'm not saying that someone who cant clear content my way cant clear content at all - but if someone joins my party, they will be held to my standards (which are actually pretty low, but obviously there are still certain expectations - basic rotation and strategy down etc.).
If they dont like that, they're very welcome to make their own party.

I dont have an issue with people making mistakes or having a bad day - I have an issue with people joining a party and then trying to bend it to their rules and needs.
PF looking to practise meteors in Suzaku? You better make sure you can reach that point of the fight reliable - instead of throwing the whole party back to square one, with you practising phase one.

A lot people seem to argue for the "poor casual player" who just cant get a kill because "mean elitsts" kick them all the time, while not realising, that those meanies have probably set up parties in a way that benefitted their goals and their playstyle - and the casual player joined them, instead of looking for a party that benefitted their goals and their playstyle.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

"mean elitsts"

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I usually find the real elitests are not the ones who expect you to perform up to a certain level, but the ones who expect you to wipe 20 times on something they can't seem to grasp with a smile on your face and kind words for their attempt. Or the ppl who don't want to bother gearing or learning rotations but still want to be part of a farm or raid group.

I actually stopped raiding in this game because I couldn't handle all the ppl who wanted carries or who would laugh as you wiped for the 30th time because they don't know where to stand even 30 fights later and then rage and scream at you over discord and then bad mouth you or your FC because you simply tell them its not working out. I helped to carry ppl who spent there time face down in the dirt through coil during ARR and even more during HW. I helped ppl who spent 80% of there time KO'd on every primal, get Kirin. I just don't have it in me to do it again.

There is a learning curve, but seriously if you are laughing because you wiped 7 other ppl 20 times or you just cant figure out where to stand after 3 nights of repeated attempts, its not the other players that are the problem.

I have found over the years that the ppl stated above far outnumber the ones that want you to perform to unreal expectations. It's like if you ask ppl to do even the bare minimum or god forbid, learn a 3 button rotation, you are a dirty elistest these days.

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Originally Posted by Vidu

A lot people seem to argue for the "poor casual player" who just cant get a kill because "mean elitsts" kick them all the time, while not realising, that those meanies have probably set up parties in a way that benefitted their goals and their playstyle - and the casual player joined them, instead of looking for a party that benefitted their goals and their playstyle.

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Those are the people that are using there subpar play style as a crutch, they want a free win. I'm not denying they exist, it's a very real thing, and disgusting. You have every right to get pissed at people that try to do this. I personally have gone in to parties thinking I'm ready for this part of the trial, find out I'm not, and feel like an ass for embarrassing myself and wasting peoples time, and leave....

But so does the other side of the coin....and you guys seem all too quick to dismiss those people as 'oh...he's just being a bit vocal about his opinions.' or even worse 'He has a right to publicly shame and bully you by calling you bad and worthless, you are ruining his play experience.' Sitting here and telling everyone 'Oh, it's cool if someone owns up to their mistake, and says they'll do better. We'll take their word on it, and everything will be fine.' No it won't? And if it does, I - again - want to know where you are living, and if I can have a slice of that comradely.

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Originally Posted by KaivaC

You are very blunt...and to the point, with no filter at all...

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I need to play with you in-game some time :) (serious offer)

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ok, send me a tell on best server (goblin)

Had a funny incident yesterday. Was doing Alphascape 3.0 and we had a well geared summoner and an MT who wasn't as well geared. Tank did countdown, summoner cast a spell to go off as soon as tank pulled and of course drew aggro and got himself killed before tank could re-establish.

Summoner kind of freaks and says something like "Maybe you shouldn't be tanking'. He then makes the salute emote and dc's. The whole time I'm thinking casters have TWO aggro reducing abilities and he didn't use a single one. I used diversion myself and had no issues.

I think he dc'd himself hoping we'd kick him, but no one did. He came back mid DPS check and we finished without issue. He not only had a terrible attitude, he was a coward and tried to run away after being a jerk. Lol.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

But so does the other side of the coin....and you guys seem all too quick to dismiss those people as 'oh...he's just being a bit vocal about his opinions.' or even worse 'He has a right to publicly shame and bully you by calling you bad and worthless, you are ruining his play experience.' Sitting here and telling everyone 'Oh, it's cool if someone owns up to their mistake, and says they'll do better. We'll take their word on it, and everything will be fine.' No it won't? And if it does, I - again - want to know where you are living, and if I can have a slice of that comradely.

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I'm not a 100% certain what you are saying here, so I'm not sure if revealing my adress would help.

I never said that shaming anyone anywhere would be okay to do - its not. In the case of the OP I said its understandble, that doesnt mean I approve of it - and since OP kinda did the same, in the sense of their emotions getting the better of them by creating a thread to vent about that guy by throwing around the word "elitist" (we all know that thats used as an insult) and phrases like "How dare he!" I feel its kinda evend out - no angels here.

No one has the right to shame anyone - however I firmely believe that you do have the right to call someone out on the mistakes they're making in a polite or at least neutral manner. Dismissing someone from your party who cant contribute (enough) to the success of the run is a totally legit thing, as long as you do with "Hey, person, I'm sorry, but I'm afraid you need more practise before you can clear this!"
Personally I have excused myself from "kill parties" like that, when it was clear that the group in question needed more practise in the first phase of the fight - "I'm sorry, I'm willing to help you get the kill, but you need to practise phase one first."

I know that treating everyone polite and kind isnt realistic and my adress wont help you because its not happening here - I'm not describing an existing reality, I'm describing how things like that should be handled.
And that would be with respect on both sides - respect from the "elitist" in a way that they can dismiss someone from their party without insults and respect from the "casual" by not sneaking their way into parties in which they dont belong (yet) and wasting the time of other people.
So currently both sides need to work on their behaviour, even where I live.
The problem with that is that it is very easy and "socially acceptable" to say: "Dont insult people!", while asking the other side to change their behaviour is a delicate matter - we dont have official parsers, players arent aware of their skill-level and they are being very sensitive, when you tell them they're doing something wrong (even if you do so in a polite and friendly way).

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Originally Posted by Vidu

I'm not a 100% certain what you are saying here, so I'm not sure if revealing my adress would help.

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Haha..not physical address, man. It's a turn-of-phrase. Kind of like saying you are seeing the world through rose tinted glasses, or refuse to see the bad in things. I'm saying that if you are getting in parties were people mutually agree on things, accept people making mistakes, and being kind and considerate when kicking someone from the party because they aren't cutting it, I want to live in your world. As in: I want to be on your server, cause it sure as hell isn't that way on Couerl.

I mean, such is the issue with anecdotes? I'm on Coeurl as well, have been since launch, and haven't had as bad an experience.

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Originally Posted by RuleofThree

Haha..not physical address, man. It's a turn-of-phrase. Kind of like saying you are seeing the world through rose tinted glasses, or refuse to see the bad in things. I'm saying that if you are getting in parties were people mutually agree on things, accept people making mistakes, and being kind and considerate when kicking someone from the party because they aren't cutting it, I want to live in your world. As in: I want to be on your server, cause it sure as hell isn't that way on Couerl.

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Dont worry, I got that you didnt wanted to come over for tea and cake (even though I'm an excellent baker!) :P

And I can assure you that it isnt like that on Odin either - I am well aware that what I'm describing is a perfect world that doesnt exist, because we're having actual jerkish eltitist and tones and tones of people who are just plain bad with or without realising it.
The only reason my experience might not be as bad as yours is my personal approach: I dont let either behaviour get to and excuse myself from parties in which I find either one of those types present - or, if the majority of the party is actually decent, I suggest for the person in question to be removed without being insulting about it.
Odin and the Chaos datacenter can be a real hell and they're not a perfect world to live in (before you're getting your transfer-ticket over), but you might be surprised how much your approach can change the tiny world of an 8-man-party you're in.

I know that they're jerks out there - on both sides - but just because I'm advocating for a change in behaviour and am saying things like "You know, it would be really nice if everyone treated everyone else with some respect" doesnt mean I dont see the problem. I just refuse to be part of it and maybe thats work out for me or maybe I'm lucky, but most of the times I dont have aweful experiences - at least not on a personal, insulting level.