How Do You Feel When Old Content Is Made Easier?

Some content gets harder over time naturally, because all the best players finish it and then never go back.

It annoyed me in FFXI how everyone simultaneously praised CoP and also completely swore off ever going back and doing any of the fights again.

Normally I'd be fine with it only if there was an option to retain its original difficulty, but I honestly don't expect that XIV would be capable of that over the course of class changes, many of which take no issue in breaking job balance over earlier levels. As such I've given up on caring one way or the other.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

It annoyed me in FFXI how everyone simultaneously praised CoP and also completely swore off ever going back and doing any of the fights again.

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Running for my life through that mine and that final battle with a balrog was awesome and exhilarating. I can't wait to do it again! - Gandalf

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Originally Posted by Canadane

No there are places where it's absolutely made easier. Outgoing damage being reduced, HP of bosses being lowered, etc.
Almost always for very outdated things. LotA comes to mind, for example.

It kinda sucks because if you're looking for the original challenge, it's simply not there anymore.

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I always thought if you wore the ilvl gear for that content and lvl synced, like doing Bahamut at 50 in i120, it was the same. Can't say I have gone back and tried, there really isn't much need.

Learn something new everyday.

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

Some content gets harder over time naturally, because all the best players finish it and then never go back.

It annoyed me in FFXI how everyone simultaneously praised CoP and also completely swore off ever going back and doing any of the fights again.

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I did them on 3 chars and our ls always helped people through content so we did them often multiple times. You just needed to make friends in vana'diel instead of relying on pugs

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Originally Posted by MicahZerrshia

I always thought if you wore the ilvl gear for that content and lvl synced, like doing Bahamut at 50 in i120, it was the same. Can't say I have gone back and tried, there really isn't much need.

Learn something new everyday.

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The only place it makes any difference is if you use the Relic/Anima weapons, as you can tune those weapons a specific way. The tomes gear when level synced are basically the same save for the secondary stat arrangement.

The game internally scales things two ways. There is a straight up chart of base stats that all characters have at a set level. Then there is a second one for gear. When you are level synced that first chart changes your character stats, and the level sync also changes the primary and secondary stats based on the gear chart. So there is an effective cap on secondary stats when levelsynced, but it's not ilevelsync. This is why you can be levelsynced to 60, and wear a mixture of 50/60/70 gear The level 70 gear will be synced as if the gear was level 60 independently of what your characters stats are and from other gear being worn.

So if you penta-melded gear, those melds are useless if the gear is level synced. ilevel sync scales the stats of the gear to a specific cap inclusive of the melds. So it's technically possible to meld an additional stat that the gear doesn't have and keep it even when ilevel synced. This is still trivial however, if you're playing anything with an ilevel sync, it's you don't need any melds at all.

When they removed the bonus stats and race stats, those stats used to be put on top. But they are no longer there. Hence every player gets exactly the same experience when synced. The result however is that this results in a net buff for all jobs since players could no longer put points in "the wrong stat" but it finally removed the problem caused by ACN/SCH/SMN having INT/MND bonus stats applied to only favor one job. Actions without potency like Lucid Dreaming/Refresh (formerly Shroud of Saints) are based off the level of the character only, and are not affected by gear and were never affected by bonus stats.

Realistically, the game needs to have the ilevel sync set to cap at the end game content for that expansion at the minimum. Ideally they would be synced to the ilevel of gear dropped in that duty +10, so that you can get past that content using gear dropped in that content.

I don’t really care.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

It has nothing to do with power creep. They outright nerfed all dungeons level 60 and below. That's why they feel so incredibly easy. They are.

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While that's true (although correct me if I'm wrong but I think that was only for the ARR and HW leveling dungeons?) there's also things like the Accuracy and Parry stats, which had no impact on damage previously turning into Direct Hit and Tenacity which DO impact your damage output.
Plus now tanks have strength on their accessories (assuming you're level 61+ and syncing down) and Samurai and Red Mage just outclass every other job at 50 and 60 due to only being designed with level 70 in mind.

Being a relative noob*, I don't know what's nerfed and what's not. All of it is difficult the first time or so out; it's hard to have a basis for comparison when you just receive it as it is now. I'm still learning what it is I'm supposed to do, and am trying to have fun too. If you think things are easy, I agree with other sentiments here: you got better. Like, lots better. So did your gear. I don't have your gear, your knowledge, or your time spent, so don't have quite the same experience as you - I mean, I don't even know what some of you are actually talking about. I have a whole load of stuff still to catch up on (you may have experienced content in more of a drip-drip fashion, so have had much more time), so frankly, since it'd likely be rather overwhelming otherwise, a nerf here or there to make things bearable isn't so bad.

That said, that road to 60 thing is ridiculous: any alt I make gets so overlevelled for content it's silly.

*To clarify: I made the account/main char a few years back, IIRC. I played for a week, got overwhelmed/anxiety and returned to GW2, which I'd played since headstart, and only quit that in February this year, after a hospital stint gave me some thinking to do. Hubby suggested doing this game again, so I did that, and have stayed, more or less, since. Still so much to do!

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Originally Posted by Fawkes

It annoyed me in FFXI how everyone simultaneously praised CoP and also completely swore off ever going back and doing any of the fights again.

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COP was too hard, period. I think i bowed out at the airship fight, but people mostly praised the story; the challenge was just too much and the expansion after was much less difficult overall I think because of it. It's pretty much the best argument for not making story content hard, because players just never beat the COP story unless they were diehard endgamers who needed sea access. They didn't get better, they just got filtered out.

As for keeping old difficulty, people say they want hard stuff, but leave after the first wipe. FFXI had hard stuff, but they also had easier stuff or different stuff as an alternative. Here there really isn't alternatives to story mode or endgame mode. So if you make it hard, people are going to get roadblocked and have nowhere else to go.

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Originally Posted by Ameela

While that's true (although correct me if I'm wrong but I think that was only for the ARR and HW leveling dungeons?) there's also things like the Accuracy and Parry stats, which had no impact on damage previously turning into Direct Hit and Tenacity which DO impact your damage output.

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Fairly certain the level 50 and 60 dungeons were included in the blanket nerfs. Some level 50 dungeons were nerfed when they were current (Amdapor Keep, Pharos Sirius). And while Dorect Hit and Tenacity do affect damage, the latter's contribution is fairly insignificant at low levels, if I recall correctly. D.Hit would be more influential, but less so the lower thr Value of the substat is.

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Plus now tanks have strength on their accessories (assuming you're level 61+ and syncing down) and Samurai and Red Mage just outclass every other job at 50 and 60 due to only being designed with level 70 in mind.

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To be fair, in HW most tanks already wore STR accessories anyways (up until they scaled tank damage to VIT), so having STR in leveling dungeons isn't that big of a difference if you recall how things were in HW. And RDM and SAM are OP at level 50 also because so many other jobs lost core skills they would have had before (MCH's oGCDs, BRD lost oGCDs, removal of older cross-class skills from some jobs, etc.), or because their revolving mechanic shifted to level 70 play (like MCH and Overheating).


The dungeons are also naturally nerfed because of the way item level syncing works - you get synced to such a high maximum that everything just rolls over; more so than it may have at release for some of the more easier dungeons. I'd honestly like to see lower item level syncs, or older dungeons be restored to their original difficulty if the ilvl sync is going to remain so high.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

COP was too hard, period. I think i bowed out at the airship fight, but people mostly praised the story.

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To be fair, that airship fight was WAY overtuned. Many CoP fights were hard, but 6-4 was insane even compared to the rest.

I prefer the route WoW took when it comes to nerfing older content of removing the bigger rewards like titles after the nerf. Something for maintaining that prestige factor that comes with those rewards (and it shuts up the whiny tryhards too).

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

I prefer the route WoW took when it comes to nerfing older content of removing the bigger rewards like titles after the nerf. Something for maintaining that prestige factor that comes with those rewards (and it shuts up the whiny tryhards too).

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I'd honestly prefer they were just two variants of the same: whilst relevant (e.g. gold border on linked/viewed achievement), or not (plain border). The collection (multiple achieves required) titles won't care what type sources them. The only requirement to collect some form of the title should be that it's synced. That way you at least have people doing that content even after it's relevant.

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Originally Posted by Kazrah

I prefer the route WoW took when it comes to nerfing older content of removing the bigger rewards like titles after the nerf. Something for maintaining that prestige factor that comes with those rewards (and it shuts up the whiny tryhards too).

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Or they could make it to where titles/mounts/shinies are only earned if you sync the content. For me it’s whatever; if I earned my clears synced, someone getting them via unsynced/undersized doesn’t devalue my own achievement of getting them “the so-called right way”.

Ah, that good old airship fight. When I got my clear I went RNG. Got Ultima down to about half HP, then I nailed it with Sidewinder -> Barrage attack -> Sidewinder -> wing -> Sidewinder -> EES. Took out most of its remaining health, and then I ran off into a far corner, slapped it with a pump, and told the pt to ignore my HP/death and focus on winning since the tank wasn't getting hate back after that. XD

I'm all for it after a bit of time.

The people who wanted to do it when it was hard can, and those who want to be able to see the content can also see it when it's easier.

Just because one person likes everything to be very challenging doesn't mean everyone does.

That's what the min ilvl button is for.

I don't mind if old content gets nerfed. It's old content. And, tbh, there's still a slight over-poweredness with syncing while wearing current gear. What I like to do now, as I did in WoW, is seeing what old stuff I can solo.

I will say, however, that neither Steps of Faith & Shinryu needed nerfing. The issues with those were 100% caused by players and their lack of willingness to cooperate.

I'm both...for and against it.

There's a point where it's just redundant to have it where it was originally, but then...having gone through 90% of the content where it wasn't nerfed and hearing people who come in now go "oh! that wasn't so bad", it makes me go "...right, they nerfed it."

I recall spending weeks on end just throwing myself into PF to clear Steps of Faith and when I finally did...there was a sense of Pride (even when a week later there was the notice that they were Nerfing it) that I'd cleared it. now, I end up there because of Trials or Mentor Roulette and...when we beat it at 50%, I can Tell it's been changed.

When I went into WoD for the first time in months, it seemed insanely easy. A friend in the run was running a parser and compared a few things and went "...they halved Cloud's HP" and we all sat there. We thought it was easier, but that much easier truly was an eye opener. They've downed the damage on a lot of things in CT, I mean, now, with a semi-competent Healer that knows how to AOE Heal, you can survive through 5 Platinals getting to the dragon; make it through Behemoth safely and only worry about Meteor and the same with Phlegethon.

Factor in that they've said that the ilvl Synch is a bit broken and you've got a lot of smaller issues.

Shinryuu getting nerfed was a bit of a blinking point, because things like Bismark and Ravana didn't get nerfed for a long while in HW (..3.4...maybe? I don't recall, to be honest).

They simply seem to be hitting things with a nerf button faster this expansion and with Jump Potions and Story Potions, I don't think that's a good Idea. Clearing Content is good, but knowing the class that you're playing? that's better. That makes you less of "that person" in the dungeon that everyone looks at and goes "...what are they doing?" or that Level 70 that's got their First Time in...let's say Cutter's Cry. that's awkward, for everyone.

Overall, I think that it's both good and bad, good from a standpoint of making new players happy, bad from the Older Player's eyes because we poured so much of ourselves into clearing it that the new players don't have to.

Indifferent. I won't become mad just because other people now can do it easily. What's the point on think that?

I'm not necessarily for nerfing old content, but at the very least making it more accessible. One of the worst things about FFXI, is not being able to go back and catch up enough to finish the story. Even when they added a catch up mechanic, it still required you to do content that nobody touches. To me, that's a stupid way to make a game; unable to even finish the stories because you didn't get to a certain ilvl while it was available, or level a certain job, or grab a certain Trust during an event, or a certain BLU spell. I want people to experience a game without feeling not having (insert rare item/spell/job/whatever) will keep them from ever catching up, or finishing the story.

I don't mind old content getting easier. What I do mind are some of the things I see when running old content:

1.) People being impatient when clearly there are new people - e.g., running into the fight (this has been made both worse and better with the auto-teleport)
2.) People get upset when people die to mechanics INSTEAD of explaining mechanics
3.) People troll when I do try to explain and ask if Alliance A/B/C is going to do the mechanics (Cerberus - A adds, B belly, C chains)
3a.) People try to do mechanics and/or argue when they're doing it wrong (I'm looking at you fire/water puddles in Dun Scaith)

People's overall disregard for the fight is what sours running old content for me. And because I enjoyed the original difficulty and mechanics devs put into the fight when they were relevant, when it becomes outdated, I get nostalgic when we don't get to do it anymore (ie, Syrcus Tower, Glasya Labolas).

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

As for keeping old difficulty, people say they want hard stuff, but leave after the first wipe. FFXI had hard stuff, but they also had easier stuff or different stuff as an alternative. Here there really isn't alternatives to story mode or endgame mode. So if you make it hard, people are going to get roadblocked and have nowhere else to go.

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That isn't necessarily true. Generally speaking, people asking for casual content to be more difficult are not looking for something which will stomp their face in, but something that actually requires a pulse. Right now the overwhelming majority of content scarcely demands more than you to be awake, which is why when sudden difficulty spikes do occur, it throws people for a loop. I know you love arguing to the contrary, however I think it's pretty telling when a friend and I purposely only healed Phantom Train normal and I literally could have AFK'd to make a sandwich. I was that useless. Somehow, I think we can have difficulty above that without going overboard.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

That isn't necessarily true. Generally speaking, people asking for casual content to be more difficult are not looking for something which will stomp their face in, but something that actually requires a pulse. Right now the overwhelming majority of content scarcely demands more than you to be awake, which is why when sudden difficulty spikes do occur, it throws people for a loop. I know you love arguing to the contrary, however I think it's pretty telling when a friend and I purposely only healed Phantom Train normal and I literally could have AFK'd to make a sandwich. I was that useless. Somehow, I think we can have difficulty above that without going overboard.

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To second that:
Some content doesnt even need you to be awake, depending on your role...
When I'm really tired, I run content on my scholar. I've literally fallen asleep for 10-30 seconds during runs and it didnt matter in the slightest.

Once I "healed" a Halatali NM run for friends, again as scholar. I was afk for the whole thing except for the parts when you have to interact with the "teleporters". My fairy did quite fine by herself - and sure, I could have cast dps-spells and I usually do, but thats not so much better.
I went through Gubal NM earlier - throwing out one Adlo before each pull and then letting the fairy do her thing was enough, while I was spamming Broil...
Thats not hard stuff - thats braindead easy stuff.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

That isn't necessarily true. Generally speaking, people asking for casual content to be more difficult are not looking for something which will stomp their face in, but something that actually requires a pulse.

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Some people's "requires a pulse" is others "stomp your face in." remember, the endgame crowd thinks byakko ex is incredibly easy. Increasngly they thnk only the last two turns and utlimate are the only "hard" content in this game.

The dungeons are fine. They are easy, yes, but that means I can go in with a job i am rusty at to practice my full 70 kit again without worrying i will wipe the run.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Some people's "requires a pulse" is others "stomp your face in." remember, the endgame crowd thinks byakko ex is incredibly easy. Increasngly they thnk only the last two turns and utlimate are the only "hard" content in this game.

The dungeons are fine. They are easy, yes, but that means I can go in with a job i am rusty at to practice my full 70 kit again without worrying i will wipe the run.

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Name me one current dungeon that is even remotely challenging. I have ran Swallow's Compass, the most recent dungeon, with multiple people of varying skill and the healing requirements are so laughably low most of them spent 90% of the run DPSing. As for Byakko EX. He is easy. Just because players are bad doesn't change that fact. Speaking from my own experience, I cleared him after three pulls on a job outside my main (Warrior) having only a vague idea of his mechanics. And I was at ilvl. All it took was learning placements and listening to advice from the friends I ran it with. Anyone can do that. In fact, I have been teaching an "uptime" strat for Tsukiyomi. The only time it's ever been an issue is when people refuse to listen or learn from their mistakes.

You can literally spam 1-2-3 and clear every single dungeon in the game. If I don't do wall to wall pulls, I may as well remove all my tank CDs. They are functionally useless. Likewise, I am basically a glorified DPS on healers unless the tanks do super pulls. Even a good chunk of big pulls aren't all that difficult if you're remotely decent.

This sentiment, by the way, is not simply my own. It's shared amongst casual raiders. NEST of all groups mocked the lackluster challenge of Alte Roite and meme'd on Phantom Train. Both may be harder than actually else the game offers but they aren't difficult per se. They're fun fights, I will grant you that, but not overly difficult.

I feel glad.

It's old content, and people want to get to the new, myself included. I like it because there are times I need to catch up, and even if I don't need to catch up, I know there are people who do need a catchup.

I'm always supportive of obsolete content being made easier for the newcomers. I know what it's like to be a newcomer myself.

Most of the time it's just people not having patience from both sides. I think trials need lower time limit like 30 mins and remove vote abandon from it. The easiest compromise so they don't have to adjust difficulty everytime someone yells 'too easy' or 'too hard'. Dungeons is fine or easy enough, I think. If someone wants harder dungeons, I don't think it will do to lump bosses in a single instance, trial-style splitted bosses suit the most crowd.

Depend on the content.

Ya I want to be able to clear content that maybe I wasn't able to find a skilled group for...
But Things like relic should be way quicker because it's just achivement points at this point.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

This sentiment, by the way, is not simply my own. It's shared amongst casual raiders.

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You know, I'm doing trial roulette tonight, and i'm getting castrim flummins. One of my runs had one of the healers say at start "well, thirteenth time is the charm," which is the amount of failed runs he did before a clear. Another I came in as a dps on the 30 min mark. You'd be surprised at how often you can come in to a failed run on some of the harder casual content, like launch 24 mans. Now imagine if every single one of those things gets harder.

I don't care if raiders think casual content is too easy. It will always be easy for them, there's no way they can make dungeons equal to beginning tiers of savage, which you yourself says is no challenge. If they did that, it would hurt others far more than it helps.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You know, I'm doing trial roulette tonight, and i'm getting castrim flummins. One of my runs had one of the healers say at start "well, thirteenth time is the charm," which is the amount of failed runs he did before a clear. Another I came in as a dps on the 30 min mark. You'd be surprised at how often you can come in to a failed run on some of the harder casual content, like launch 24 mans. Now imagine if every single one of those things gets harder.

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Failed runs doesn’t mean the content is even hard; just that players are either impatient or flat-out bad. That doesn’t make the content hard mechanically. Tsuku is actually good in its design as it requires you to actually pay attention...unlike most content in this game. Final Steps of Faith, Royal Menagerie, and Weeping City were the same way, and what do they all have in common? People whining that they’re “too hard”...because they actually have to pay attention and can’t just barrel through it. In my opinion, all four are the perfect difficulty for this game, especially since they are all supposed to be done at max level for their relative expansions—you know, when people are supposed to have an inkling of how to play their class.

That being said, none of these pieces of content were hard in the way you like to put it (i.e., “Savage-level difficulty”)—they were just more difficult than the majority of other MSQ-related content that required little to no thought to it.

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I don't care if raiders think casual content is too easy. It will always be easy for them, there's no way they can make dungeons equal to beginning tiers of savage, which you yourself says is no challenge. If they did that, it would hurt others far more than it helps.

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You’re speaking in extremes again—please quote where anyone in this thread has asked for Savage-level difficulty for dungeons. I want them to bring back dungeons more akin to original Amdapor Keep and Pharos Sirius...especially since they’re supposed to be “Expert” level dungeons. I don’t want more Kugane Castles and Swallow’s Compasses where I don’t have to actually heal the tank, much less the party outside of 1 GCD.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

You know, I'm doing trial roulette tonight, and i'm getting castrim flummins. One of my runs had one of the healers say at start "well, thirteenth time is the charm," which is the amount of failed runs he did before a clear. Another I came in as a dps on the 30 min mark. You'd be surprised at how often you can come in to a failed run on some of the harder casual content, like launch 24 mans. Now imagine if every single one of those things gets harder.

I don't care if raiders think casual content is too easy. It will always be easy for them, there's no way they can make dungeons equal to beginning tiers of savage, which you yourself says is no challenge. If they did that, it would hurt others far more than it helps.

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Do quote where I made even a single mention of savage level dungeons. In fact, I believe I argued the contrary—saying I wanted something that requires more than a pulse. We have spoke about this time and again yet you continue to present a dichotomy. Was The Vault savage tier? Because I have mentioned it numerous times as a good example for dungeon difficulty. Despite what you may think, I'm not actually asking for dungeons which I will find difficult because, no, they won't be something overly difficult for me. That doesn't mean they cannot be interesting. Is it so much to ask dungeons actually require healers to heal? Even as a raider, I shouldn't be able to keep a tank alive through big pulls with Regen and the occasional Tetra yet Swallow's Compass that undertuned. And I did it at roughly i355. So you can't even use raid gear as an excuse.

As for Tsukiyomi. This is what happens when you have sudden difficulty spikes, though more often than not I see players who simply refuse to pay attention. I had a Warrior in my first Shinryu run who died five times out of six to Tidal Wave and had the audacity to whine the healers were ruining his fun when they finally lost patience after explaining no less than three times how to do the mechanics. According to you, we should nerf Shinryu so idiots like that can faceroll through. No wonder less and less people want to queue for things.

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Originally Posted by HyoMinPark

You’re speaking in extremes again—please quote where anyone in this thread has asked for Savage-level difficulty for dungeons. I want them to bring back dungeons more akin to original Amdapor Keep and Pharos Sirius

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Cool, people would just do the same things they did back then and leave on pop. Actually these days you don't even need to queue for expert, so maybe they would just ignore it like they do 50/60 roulettes.

If you want hard 4 man content, well, you have challenge floors both in POTD and heaven on high.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

As for Tsukiyomi. This is what happens when you have sudden difficulty spikes, though more often than not I see players who simply refuse to pay attention.

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it has nothing to do wiith that. Its the last phase and the speed of the mechanics, as well as how icky they are rendered. Not many story fights stack multiple mechanics on top of each other, nor are they particularly fast. You also have issues with tankbusters happening right after the fast mechanic phase, and the entire fight requires a lot heavier knowledge of positioning and awareness then most others. This is why SE made sure to give every attack audio cues to help players anticipate. It's a tedious fight once you get past the first clear, just like shin is.

And yeah, you think you are complaining about idiots now, wait till regular players keep screwing up your runs cause the content is hard for them. I have the nasty suspicious the monster hunter event might just be this; i wouldnt put it past yoshi to make it an ex-trial because the original game is so hardcore.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Cool, people would just do the same things they did back then and leave on pop. Actually these days you don't even need to queue for expert, so maybe they would just ignore it like they do 50/60 roulettes.

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50/60 Roulette is largely ignored because the rewards tied to the roulette are extremely lackluster, not because the dungeons in there are any sort of hard difficulty. They’re just as faceroll as everything else, especially now when we blatantly overgear them, and where they had been nerfed with the onset of a new expansion; or, in the case of Amdapor and Pharos, where they were previously nerfed so hard they barely resemble anything of their former selves.

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If you want hard 4 man content, well, you have challenge floors both in POTD and heaven on high.

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And why do those two have to be the only challenging pieces of 4-man content?

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

it has nothing to do wiith that. Its the last phase and the speed of the mechanics, as well as how icky they are rendered. Not many story fights stack multiple mechanics on top of each other, nor are they particularly fast. You also have issues with tankbusters happening right after the fast mechanic phase, and the entire fight requires a lot heavier knowledge of positioning and awareness then most others. This is why SE made sure to give every attack audio cues to help players anticipate. It's a tedious fight once you get past the first clear, just like shin is.

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Well, of course they should be faster-paced—you’re doing the content at level cap, where you’re supposed to have a decent knowledge of the way your class functions. Why should level 70 content be as easy as level 15 content? Why should any piece of level 70 content be easier than something like Aurum Vale, a level 47 dungeon?

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

it has nothing to do wiith that. Its the last phase and the speed of the mechanics, as well as how icky they are rendered. Not many story fights stack multiple mechanics on top of each other, nor are they particularly fast. You also have issues with tankbusters happening right after the fast mechanic phase, and the entire fight requires a lot heavier knowledge of positioning and awareness then most others. This is why SE made sure to give every attack audio cues to help players anticipate. It's a tedious fight once you get past the first clear, just like shin is.

And yeah, you think you are complaining about idiots now, wait till regular players keep screwing up your runs cause the content is hard for them. I have the nasty suspicious the monster hunter event might just be this; i wouldnt put it past yoshi to make it an ex-trial because the original game is so hardcore.

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Welcome to level 70? Mechanics should increase in tempo as you progress otherwise what's even the point? Nothing Tsukiyomi does hasn't been seen prior except the rotating debuffs. Her fan mechanic are a repeat of Shiva; the cleave is a repeat of Zurvan; the stack mechanics are standard. For those inexperienced, it may seem overwhelming, but if people actually learned from their mistakes, it's hardly difficult. And if all else fails, you have guides available such as Mizzteq or MrHappy. The issue is many people don't want to learn, they want faceroll easy content they can spam a couple buttons and clear.

And I suppose we should tune everything so someone who can't be bothered to read party chat can still play? Frankly, I would welcome a wipe or two in dungeons because mechanics actually demanded something from the playerbase. At least that would be more interesting than wall to wall pulls you aoe down. Alas, when the devs have to readjust Heavy Thrust because doing a Heavy Thrust -> Chaos Thrust combo -> Full Thrust combo without allowing it to fall off is too difficult. Maybe I ask too much...

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

Welcome to level 70? Mechanics should increase in tempo as you progress otherwise what's even the point?.

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Go do shin, and you see every attack has an incredibly slow windup. The difficulty was in the sheer amount of them, and that they often would one-shot people at min ilvl if failed. Tsuku does shiva's circle, but much faster, and stacks an ahk morn or diabolic whistle on the end, or a cone aoe. The ahk morn in particular wipes groups since not everyone has the awareness to go to the last fan, and it just takes one person out of place to ramp the damage. The speed is a lot greater than any fight, even though the mechanics are a lot less. And one of the biggest differences between casual and ex content is in the speed of the mechanics. It has little to do with reading party chat; the player has to have good spacial awareness and resolve the mechanics in series. I notice healers have a lot of issues because they generally have to process more and have less muscle memory healing, so they end up eating the frontal tankbuster because they didn't get the tank switched position after lunacy.

Not everyone who does poorly is an idiot.

I don't think they need to nerf anything, but 24 man level content is about the highest true casual content can go, if it is required or expected to be (tome farms.) If you ask for harder stuff, its going to end up too hard for casuals to run, and it will be ignored.

And they nerfed heavy thrust because they nerfed timers in general; timers dropping off were the biggest lost of dps for any dps class in this game, and drg in particular is very rigid in timing, even still in SB. And yeah, in HW dps classes sucked, managing 3 or more separate timers for dots and buff abilities sucked hard. if we had HW system with these fights it would be hilarious, people would lose so much dps simply because they couldn't refresh their timers that they'd complain.

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And why do those two have to be the only challenging pieces of 4-man content?

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Because people don't even do those. To be fair, if it were matched party you might see some increase, but i think fewer people enjoy hard content than you think.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Because people don't even do those. To be fair, if it were matched party you might see some increase, but i think fewer people enjoy hard content than you think.

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Considering the sheer amount of Floor 200 parties I saw on Cactuar not only in Heavensward but in Stormblood after they enabled cross-server functions for Floor 200 runs (and at that point, they were across Aether), I disagree. Sure that’s anecdotal...however—if people didn’t do the content, why would the developers mention they’re making floors 31 to 100 of Heaven on High difficult because players enjoyed the more difficult floors of PotD more than the easier floors? Those words came from Yoshida himself.

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With the original Deep Dungeon, Palace of the Dead, we released 200 floors over two patches. However our feedback indicates that outside of leveling other jobs, players only really enjoyed the challenge of floors 180 to 200. With Heaven on High the leveling and story portion will end at floor 30, but floors 31 to 100 should feel closer to 180 to 200. Expect that kind of challenge from 31 to 100 and we hope the players enjoy accessing this content a little sooner.

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Source: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...1A/mobilebasic

Maybe, just maybe, more people enjoy harder content than you think, Riyah.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

the player has to have good spacial awareness and resolve the mechanics in series.

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This would be true on the initial few pulls, which is perfectly reasonable. After several attempts, if someone is still failing the same few mechanics, blaming it on anything but lack of effort often times comes across as excuses. Even at an increased speed, they remain the same mechanics people have already seen. And one person out of place will not kill you unless that single person is targeted.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

Not everyone who does poorly is an idiot.

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And nowhere did I say they were. You're putting words in my mouth. I cited a particular incident where someone failed the very first mechanic repeatedly despite being told how it work. He, instead, rushed in and pulled without listening. That isn't someone doing poorly because they're new. That is an impatience fool who couldn't be bothered to listen and wasted people's time. You'd see less of that if content actually forced you to pay attention far earlier. Leveling dungeons do a decent job of this. At least until the gear out-scales them, though the big pulls still hurt.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

And they nerfed heavy thrust because they nerfed timers in general; timers dropping off were the biggest lost of dps for any dps class in this game, and drg in particular is very rigid in timing, even still in SB. And yeah, in HW dps classes sucked, managing 3 or more separate timers for dots and buff abilities sucked hard. if we had HW system with these fights it would be hilarious, people would lose so much dps simply because they couldn't refresh their timers that they'd complain.

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First, they only reduced the damage bonus it provides not the timer itself. Secondly, they outright acknowledged the nerf was due to people forgetting to re-apply it. Keeping Heavy Thrust up should never have been an issue if you bothered to learn Dragoon's rotation. I was a novice back in Heavensward and learned the rotation through youtube and google doc guides. If I could figure it out and not have this issue, why can't someone else do precisely the same thing? Or do you actually believe I was born better somehow? No one is asking for Savage level dungeons or expecting top tier raid parses. They're asking for something with some teeth to it and a little competency.

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Originally Posted by RiyahArp

I think fewer people enjoy hard content than you think.

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Originally Posted by Bourne_Endeavor

No one is asking for Savage level dungeons or expecting top tier raid parses. They're asking for something with some teeth to it and a little competency.

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Is anyone else just so done with having this same conversation over and over again? I sure am.

Riyah - you're making a positive claim here, saying that less people enjoy more difficult content. Back that up with evidence or for the love of god open your mind to the idea you might be wrong.

Increasing clear rates right now for EX and Savage stand against you, come up with something compelling to put up against them or drop this.

As someone who is a mid-level skilled player who has more fun with the normal/hard mode content over Extreme/Savage content making older content easier is actually a bad thing for not only veterans but also new players, because threads like this will exist to point that it's not really a good idea, and new players are wondering why veterans are helping out and threads like Sastasha(lvl. 15) is hard will still continue to exist... making a dungeon that was once fun into a chore is always a bad idea... although duty roulette always feels like a chore in general...

I don't see why content has to be considered less important solely because of its age. If I go out and buy a ten-year-old single-player game and clear it, is the experience somehow lesser than an equally challenging game that was released last week?

What is it that makes this work differently in an MMO that it's OK to nerf old content "because it's old"? It can't be the story, since that's now entirely told in the normal modes (Coil being the one exception). The drops are relevant only for glamour purposes since stronger gear is available from the next tier's normal mode than the previous tier's savage. If glamours are the reason, I'd rather they make them available through other means ("replica" items perhaps) and leave the content alone.

What we have now is a fixed amount of "current" content and an ever-growing collection of things considered "obsolete". Instead we could have an ever-growing collection of "relevant" things to do. I'm seeing this sort of happen for the first time in the game's history with ultimates - I expected interest in Unending Coil to die instantly as soon as they released Ultima, much as savage raid tiers do. Instead, due to the iLvl sync and the only-for-the-challenge nature of the fights, I'm still seeing groups recruiting for it; fewer groups than for Ultima for sure, but they're still pretty common. There isn't "old ultimate" and "new ultimate" like every other type of content in the game, there's just two ultimates.